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ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:15 PM
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We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607

Umm - no. You miss one important point, and that is that the message for the end event was written to the people 2000 years ago. It was expected then and it never happened. Now, if god was so smart he would have taught his leaders that the end would come at some time far in the distant future, and that everyone between then and whenever would be saved from the event (which is what salvation is all about). But this was not done; if you notice it was all written in the present tense of the day, and that day was 2000 years years ago.

It's all a delusion - it never happened. People have propounded this myth for only one reason ... admitting it didn't happen would be like the earth disappearing out from under you (but it was never there to begin with).
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:19 PM
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Matthew 24:29 - 31

29.) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30.) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31.) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does it get any easier to understand than this?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553174


The books of the New Testament wer written in 40-95AD and all 12 apostles were schooled by the Book of Enoch which was written centuries before the New Testament.


Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.
Lotus Feet

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11/17/2008 03:23 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

Umm - no. You miss one important point, and that is that the message for the end event was written to the people 2000 years ago. It was expected then and it never happened. Now, if god was so smart he would have taught his leaders that the end would come at some time far in the distant future, and that everyone between then and whenever would be saved from the event (which is what salvation is all about). But this was not done; if you notice it was all written in the present tense of the day, and that day was 2000 years years ago.

It's all a delusion - it never happened. People have propounded this myth for only one reason ... admitting it didn't happen would be like the earth disappearing out from under you (but it was never there to begin with).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553184



Read Matthew chapter 24 Jesus gives exact prophecy of what the generation in the end times will encounter. He predicted that the temples would burn because he warned them not to build upon his foundations with building materials.

He also predicted that the time would not come until the tree of Israel became tender. If you understand prophecy and have cross referenced with other books in the bible you will know the time is now. Elders around the world all agree that the time is now.

Lotus
i love satan
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:26 PM
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Matthew 24:29 - 31

29.) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30.) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31.) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does it get any easier to understand than this?



The books of the New Testament wer written in 40-95AD and all 12 apostles were schooled by the Book of Enoch which was written centuries before the New Testament.


Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553089


More "riddles"? Are you kidding me? Does the scripture "where the vultures gather, there the corpse will be?" ring any bells?

If this message is such a friggin riddled and Jesus refutes it directly and soooooo many people are planning for it how is it that this mystery has been exposed to such magnitude.

I mean wow a riddle so powerful that (like a corrupt government) Jesus himself denies it just for spite???

I conclude my point with this posters statement that the dark powers have a stranglehold on these pre-trib rapture people....
Lotus Feet

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11/17/2008 03:27 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
For instance in Matthew 24:29 - 31

29.) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30.) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31.) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553174


Yes millions of people gathered together and the angels were sending out emails all around the world calling the elect to join in the celebrations. Millions celebrated the eclipse and the sign of the Son of Man.

Lotus
i love satan
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:27 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
If God called him the righteous scribe then isn't it God-sanctioned - ultimately approved to be of God? How is Christ not in that book? He's all through it!!! Read it again. He is referred to as THE ELECT ONE!!

Enoch 44:3-4
3
On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory
And shall try their works,
And their places of rest shall be innumerable.
And their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine Elect Ones,
And those who have called upon My glorious name:

4
Then will I cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them.

That bible jives with the book of enoch perfectly. The fact that you're trying to say that the bible's account of the gathering is false because the real truth lies in the book of enoch is ludacris. They're both correct.

You have been misled O-P, and its not surprising many, many will be misled. Jesus is never mentioned but his apostles are, here read this verse.

1Enoch.89:[25]Then I saw, that the man, who wrote the book at the word of the LORD, opened the book of destruction, of that destruction which the last twelve shepherds wrought; and pointed out before the LORD of the sheep, that they destroyed more than those who preceded them.

The last 12 shepherds were supposed to testify from the Book of Enoch but were misled by a Fallen son of GOD (devil).



The Elect One is the Messiah, the Son of Man.

Read all of Chapter 70


1Enoch.70:[12]With them was the Ancient of Days, whose head was white as wool, and pure, and his robe was indescribable.

[13]Then I fell upon my face, while all my flesh was dissolved, and my spirit became changed.

[14]I cried out with a loud voice, with a powerful spirit, blessing, glorifying, and exalting.

[15]And those blessings, which proceeded from my mouth, became acceptable in the presence of the Ancient of days.

[16]The Ancient of Days came with Michael and Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel, with thousands of thousands, and myriads and myriads, which could not be numbered.

[17]Then that angel came to me, and with his voice saluted me, saying, You are the Son of man, (74) who art born for righteousness, and righteousness has rested upon you. [18]The righteousness of the Ancient of days shall not forsake you.


CASE CLOSED, Enoch is the Messiah, he's the Son of Man.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553089



Do you have a link to your text? Enoch 70 has 4 verses only.
Lotus Feet

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11/17/2008 03:31 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
What does this word tribulation mean?

Greek Thlipsis = a pressing, pressing together.

Lotus
i love satan
HI-JACKER
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11/17/2008 03:33 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story.


]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

More "riddles"? Are you kidding me? Does the scripture "where the vultures gather, there the corpse will be?" ring any bells?

If this message is such a friggin riddled and Jesus refutes it directly and soooooo many people are planning for it how is it that this mystery has been exposed to such magnitude.

I mean wow a riddle so powerful that (like a corrupt government) Jesus himself denies it just for spite???

I conclude my point with this posters statement that the dark powers have a stranglehold on these pre-trib rapture people....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553174

Wow, you're the first Jesus follower I heard of that doesn't follow the teaching of the Jesus in the new Testament.


Tell me, what book have read that taught you about the Jesus you follow?
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:36 PM
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CASE CLOSED, Enoch is the Messiah, he's the Son of Man.

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Do you have a link to your text? Enoch 70 has 4 verses only.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 426194

Here read the book of Enoch and not some copied imitation site just to misled even to the last days....

[link to reluctant-messenger.com]
PaRaNoRmAL iNvEsTiGaToR

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11/17/2008 03:40 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The serious problem about a situation like this is that people get their ego wrapped up in their belief.

People that have believed the false rapture stories, will be very resistant and closed-minded to the truth that there is no pre-Tribulation rapture.

The reason is that to finally understand the scriptures and acknowledge that there is no pre-Tribulation rapture, would mean to admit that they have been wrong all these years and all of their pre-tribulation rapture arguments have been horribly wrong.

The ego will not allow people to do this.

There is no Biblical support for any pre-Tribulation rapture. All of the scriptures that "Pre-Tribbers" use to prove the rapture myth are taken way out of context and their clear Biblical meaning altered.

However, people would rather ignorantly defend a lie than to admit their tragic mistake.

The ego is a powerful tool of the Devil.

Please people, set aside your ego and put God in the center and really look at the rapture myth and the "cherry-picked" verses used to support it.

The pre-Tribulation rapture is a lie to confuse Christians during the Tribulation.
 Quoting: Nucking Futs 455142



I agree But I do believe it will be like mid trib. 3 and a half years into it.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:40 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story.


]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

More "riddles"? Are you kidding me? Does the scripture "where the vultures gather, there the corpse will be?" ring any bells?

If this message is such a friggin riddled and Jesus refutes it directly and soooooo many people are planning for it how is it that this mystery has been exposed to such magnitude.

I mean wow a riddle so powerful that (like a corrupt government) Jesus himself denies it just for spite???

I conclude my point with this posters statement that the dark powers have a stranglehold on these pre-trib rapture people....

Wow, you're the first Jesus follower I heard of that doesn't follow the teaching of the Jesus in the new Testament.


Tell me, what book have read that taught you about the Jesus you follow?
 Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089


I don't follow Jesus, I worship him. All you idiots who think you "follow" Jesus are just confused.

I personally cannot be like Jesus, I've tried and failed time and time again...

I have broken down all the books of the bible into their original langages (Chaldee Greek, and Hebrew) and I can tell yout this: The Saints have lost thier battle with Satan and the churches have fallen. They now corrupt beyond all comprehension and all of you who are attending any church are sorely and powerfully deceived. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

Love to debate any of you regarding any of this. But, beware I know the bible 10 to 100 times better than any of you pre-trib rapture believers do. I base that purely on your ability to believe the pre-trib rapture lie so easily.
Lotus Feet

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11/17/2008 03:47 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The word rapture isn't even in the bible.
i love satan
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Love to debate any of you regarding any of this. But, beware I know the bible 10 to 100 times better than any of you pre-trib rapture believers do. I base that purely on your ability to believe the pre-trib rapture lie so easily.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553174

Them's are challenging words, fair enough, your proposal is accepted.

What did Jesus or the bible mean mean by the following.


Jesus specifically states in Mark13:[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

That generation passed away and, "they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory." Hasn't happened!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 03:59 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
O.K. People.

I will VERY EASILY disprove the Pre-trib "rapture" theory:

Read the famous "rapture" verses in

I Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most people stop right here but if you continue reading their is a clue to the timing of this event.

I Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I think we can all agree that here, he is still addressing the "rapture" subject in the above verses.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Again, he's still in context with the famous "rapture" verses. Look at how he refers to this event by:

THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!!

Now you may be thinking so what? what does that tell us?

Well, lets look at what the bible tells us about the day of the Lord:

Joel 2:31

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14-15

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13:9-10

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Do you see the correlation between all these verses? That's right, they all describe the same celestial events:

Sun & moon darkened, stars shall not give their light

So what does this have to do with the timing of the "rapture"

Well, lets go to Matt 24:29

Here the disciples have asked Christ what will precede his second coming. Listen to what he tells them!

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

CHRIST, BY DESCRIBING THE SAME CELESTIAL ANAMOLIES, HAS JUST SET A TIMELINE FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD (RAPTURE) AS HAPPENING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!

Look what he goes on to tell his disciples:


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you see that this description lines up perfectly with the famous "rapture" passage of I Thess 4?

Look at the similarities:

I Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout
Matt 24:30-31
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

I Thess 4:16-17
with the voice of the archangel

Matt 24:30-31
And he shall send his angels

I Thess 4:16-17
and with the trump of God

Matt 24:30-31
with a great sound of a trumpet

I Thess 4:16-17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up

Matt 24:30-31
and they shall gather together his elect

We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!


God Bless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607

Your error is that you forget that a thousand years is as one day for the Lord. The DAY OF THE LORD covers a thousand years period. The great tribulation period is also a thousand years long.

Secondly, your take on the tribulation mentioned Here:
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


would be better served if you remove the underline and bold text to reflect as so:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then you will be properly referencing the SUFFERING that Christians face BEFORE the rapture BUT BEFORE the Great Tribulation period. THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. Much different. Also a Pole Shift factors in the events. Then the Great Trib follows the pole shift.

Take another look please. Be blessed!
Lotus Feet

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11/17/2008 04:10 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
What did Jesus or the bible mean mean by the following. Jesus specifically states in Mark13:[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. That generation passed away and, "they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory." Hasn't happened!!!!
 Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089


Jesus is talking about the generation that lives through the rest of the chapter.

Mark 13 Signs of the End of the Age

1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong.


Interesting passage when obama is standing where he does not belong because he is not a natural born citizen



—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]

26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Lotus
i love satan
Anonymous Coward
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
If the elect are gathered from the four winds couldn't that mean they had previously met Jesus in the middle of the air? The winds are in the air. These elect that are referred to aren't necessarily still on earth.
Me114

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11/17/2008 04:17 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
People, before you immediately contradict the original post - go back and read it and I mean really read it and let it sink in without and preconceived notions.

You can dribble out all the theories you want. The fact of the matter is that YOU CANNOT DENY WHAT THE SCRIPTURES ARE TELLING US. Are you going to argue with the very word of God?

The bible is screaming POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE!!!

Now go ahead and type but know that whatever you say to argue the post tribulation rapture will be DIRECTLY OPPOSING THE VERY WORDS OF GOD.

Do you want truth or do you want deception? It's your choice.

Type away fools.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607



why presume that any man can figure it out when it has to be revealed!?
:ura:

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I Unknown Depths of Love, You.
What Happens Next Loves me.
Help me Jesus, Life will let me know.
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Your error is that you forget that a thousand years is as one day for the Lord. The DAY OF THE LORD covers a thousand years period. The great tribulation period is also a thousand years long.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553189

You're a good skater with the "a thousand years is as one day for the Lord" but before the rapture it talks of, [14]
"When you see the desolating abomination standing where he should not (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains."


The desolation has occurred and that which stands there is still standing there today (the Mosque). And that would make the Book of Daniel in its infantile stages since Daniel spoke of 1350 days which according to you would be 1,350,000 human years since "a thousand years is as one day for the Lord."
Lotus Feet

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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
If the elect are gathered from the four winds couldn't that mean they had previously met Jesus in the middle of the air? The winds are in the air. These elect that are referred to aren't necessarily still on earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553222


The 4 winds are symbolic of the 4 directions.

"Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' Ezekiel 37:8-10

"Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven," declares the LORD."
Zechariah 2:5-7

"And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." Mark 13:26-28

Most spiritual people live in heaven....

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:19-21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matthew 7:20-22

Lotus
i love satan
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:25 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Them's are challenging words, fair enough, your proposal is accepted.

What did Jesus or the bible mean mean by the following.


Jesus specifically states in Mark13:[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

That generation passed away and, "they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory." Hasn't happened!!!!
 Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089


13:30 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη μέχρις οὗ πάντα ταῦτα γένηται

He was speaking to the Generation that shall see the end. I think it's quite obvious by the following references:

4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
 Quoting: Jesus


This question brings about the eventual answer you seek.

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
 Quoting: Jesus


How could anybody come in his name while he is still there?

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
 Quoting: Jesus

It's quite obvious here that he was speaking about the future. The "new world" hadn't even been discovered yet (at least by those in his immediate region).

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
 Quoting: Jesus

The book of Daniel will back me up on the NO pre-trib rapture when he speaks about those who should wait through the tribulation.

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
 Quoting: Jesus

This comment is referring to those who have cheated on Jesus spiritually and have followed satan while thinking he is Jesus. A lot of GLP'ers fall into this category.

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
 Quoting: Jesus
There he goes again: telling us that the "rapture is AFTER the tribulation.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
 Quoting: Jesus


So, it's obvious when you put it into context that he is speaking to the generation that shall see the end.

Next!
Me114

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11/17/2008 04:25 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
all of you all make me sick

u argue about this thing like any one of you can tell someone which scenario is the true one, and for what?

so you can look at current events and figure out on your own whether it fits your storyline? and then for what?

so you can rely on you the strength of your own arm of the flesh to save your self? or or or

or, oh so you can get on your knees in time and say, i know now that u are coming lord, please take me too?


what do u delve into this exercise in the words in the bible for? what are you looking for? a sign that we are in the tribulation or before it, or half way thru, or what?? what?


why?? why???

why arent u desiring the kingdom
why arent u desiring righteousness (disgusted with your self and asking god to clean you up inside, your nasty thought life and ungodly habits, bad words you speak, and stupid things you do)

why arent u focused on learning to hear god the almighty creator speak directly to you? why dont you ask him to teach you to hear him like that?

then he can prepare you for the truth... then it wont matter what you can figure out on your own, because u can hear from the source, the exact instructions to prepare you and your loved ones for the truth of what he himself is doing

stop arguing over this stuff!

not a one of you talk about being raptured and coming back to help a single soul

none of you look forward to doing the exploits daniel promised

you dont CARE ABOUT anyone else, nor their salvation

you only care about BEING RIGHT in your own eyes! look at yourself and be honest NOW

to be a candidate for the rapture is about loving everyone so much that you want god to purge you to the max so he can glorify you and trust you with his powers, and you can come back and love on everyone like jesus did in his neighborhood

thats what rapture is about

what the HELL are you all arguing and talking about then?
:ura:

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I Unknown Depths of Love, You.
What Happens Next Loves me.
Help me Jesus, Life will let me know.
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Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:29 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
O.K. People.

I will VERY EASILY disprove the Pre-trib "rapture" theory:

Read the famous "rapture" verses in

I Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most people stop right here but if you continue reading their is a clue to the timing of this event.

I Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I think we can all agree that here, he is still addressing the "rapture" subject in the above verses.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Again, he's still in context with the famous "rapture" verses. Look at how he refers to this event by:

THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!!

Now you may be thinking so what? what does that tell us?

Well, lets look at what the bible tells us about the day of the Lord:

Joel 2:31

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14-15

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13:9-10

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Do you see the correlation between all these verses? That's right, they all describe the same celestial events:

Sun & moon darkened, stars shall not give their light

So what does this have to do with the timing of the "rapture"

Well, lets go to Matt 24:29

Here the disciples have asked Christ what will precede his second coming. Listen to what he tells them!

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

CHRIST, BY DESCRIBING THE SAME CELESTIAL ANAMOLIES, HAS JUST SET A TIMELINE FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD (RAPTURE) AS HAPPENING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!

Look what he goes on to tell his disciples:


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you see that this description lines up perfectly with the famous "rapture" passage of I Thess 4?

Look at the similarities:

I Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout
Matt 24:30-31
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

I Thess 4:16-17
with the voice of the archangel

Matt 24:30-31
And he shall send his angels

I Thess 4:16-17
and with the trump of God

Matt 24:30-31
with a great sound of a trumpet

I Thess 4:16-17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up

Matt 24:30-31
and they shall gather together his elect

We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!


God Bless.

Your error is that you forget that a thousand years is as one day for the Lord. The DAY OF THE LORD covers a thousand years period. The great tribulation period is also a thousand years long.

Secondly, your take on the tribulation mentioned Here:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


would be better served if you remove the underline and bold text to reflect as so:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then you will be properly referencing the SUFFERING that Christians face BEFORE the rapture BUT BEFORE the Great Tribulation period. THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. Much different. Also a Pole Shift factors in the events. Then the Great Trib follows the pole shift.

Take another look please. Be blessed!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553189


You have GOT to be joking! Haha! Is that what your minister told you? Hahaha! What a liar!

These fools will say and do anything to stick to their false doctrine!!!!

"Only a fool rebukes a wise man"
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:29 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
O.K. People.

---------

We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!


God Bless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607



Shalawm,

It is interesting and, to a degree, amuzing to see how you take ALL scriptural verses and place them out of the context to proof your misconceptions!

You are not here to defend the word of Yah Most High, but to confirm the errors in your teachings. When you want to be right you use Yah's word without thinking twice, let alone reading what is written, to proof yourself.

Wanting to be right today, or win an argument today is no guarantee for anything in the future. You might want to hold on to that doctrine for arguments sake eventhought the text you quote here, CLEARLY have no relation to any -rapture- doctrine whatsoever. And at that time and that moment that you wait to be "raptured up" and you will be THEN proven wrong will make you let go of that which YOU call faith!

What did Yahoshua say? Ye know not what you worship,.....!

You have no idea, who you worship!

Shalawm
word+sword=fire
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:31 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Jesus is talking about the generation that lives through the rest of the chapter.
 Quoting: Lotus Feet


No Lotus, you can't make scriptures up to suit your argument. I know all my scriptures, and then some. Mark 13 speaks of the generation(s) that will witness the following:[14] "When you see the desolating abomination standing where he should not (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,


The desolation has occurred, and that which stands there is still standing there today (the Mosque). Islam according to Jesus and Mark has desolated the Temple by building upon it with the Mosque (Root of David) and Islam declared that Jesus is not the son of God rather a man/prophet. This event should have triggered the rest of Mark where the Son of Man descends.


Falsehoods, need I say more????
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:34 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
all of you all make me sick

u argue about this thing like any one of you can tell someone which scenario is the true one, and for what?

so you can look at current events and figure out on your own whether it fits your storyline? and then for what?

so you can rely on you the strength of your own arm of the flesh to save your self? or or or

or, oh so you can get on your knees in time and say, i know now that u are coming lord, please take me too?


what do u delve into this exercise in the words in the bible for? what are you looking for? a sign that we are in the tribulation or before it, or half way thru, or what?? what?


why?? why???

why arent u desiring the kingdom
why arent u desiring righteousness (disgusted with your self and asking god to clean you up inside, your nasty thought life and ungodly habits, bad words you speak, and stupid things you do)

why arent u focused on learning to hear god the almighty creator speak directly to you? why dont you ask him to teach you to hear him like that?

then he can prepare you for the truth... then it wont matter what you can figure out on your own, because u can hear from the source, the exact instructions to prepare you and your loved ones for the truth of what he himself is doing

stop arguing over this stuff!

not a one of you talk about being raptured and coming back to help a single soul

none of you look forward to doing the exploits daniel promised

you dont CARE ABOUT anyone else, nor their salvation

you only care about BEING RIGHT in your own eyes! look at yourself and be honest NOW

to be a candidate for the rapture is about loving everyone so much that you want god to purge you to the max so he can glorify you and trust you with his powers, and you can come back and love on everyone like jesus did in his neighborhood

thats what rapture is about

what the HELL are you all arguing and talking about then?
 Quoting: Me114


Personally I couldn't care less about going to heaven or being right. The most important thing to me is to represent the authors of ALL of the books of the bible with the truth. The Pseudopigrapha, the Apocrypha, and the Holy Bible. Unfortunatly most people that say they are christians are actually catholics. No? Hmmm, then why do you study and base all of your faith in the Catholic version of the Bible? Fools! Get the truth, quit fiddling with these theives in the pulpits, and clean yourselves of your afflictions!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:38 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Personally I couldn't care less about going to heaven or being right. The most important thing to me is to represent the authors of ALL of the books of the bible with the truth. The Pseudopigrapha, the Apocrypha, and the Holy Bible. Unfortunatly most people that say they are christians are actually catholics. No? Hmmm, then why do you study and base all of your faith in the Catholic version of the Bible? Fools! Get the truth, quit fiddling with these theives in the pulpits, and clean yourselves of your afflictions!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553174

GREAT MIND.


Nice piece of truth, nice, real nice!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:39 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Jesus is talking about the generation that lives through the rest of the chapter.

No Lotus, you can't make scriptures up to suit your argument. I know all my scriptures, and then some. Mark 13 speaks of the generation(s) that will witness the following:[14] "When you see the desolating abomination standing where he should not (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,


The desolation has occurred, and that which stands there is still standing there today (the Mosque). Islam according to Jesus and Mark has desolated the Temple by building upon it with the Mosque (Root of David) and Islam declared that Jesus is not the son of God rather a man/prophet. This event should have triggered the rest of Mark where the Son of Man descends.


Falsehoods, need I say more????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553089


Oops! Wrong again! It clearly states that this generation will see the end, not that the abomination of desolation will bring about the end. We still have 60 years before the generation that witnessed Israel become a nation was born.

Sorry try again.
HI-JACKER
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11/17/2008 04:41 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Personally I couldn't care less about going to heaven or being right. The most important thing to me is to represent the authors of ALL of the books of the bible with the truth. The Pseudopigrapha, the Apocrypha, and the Holy Bible. Unfortunatly most people that say they are christians are actually catholics. No? Hmmm, then why do you study and base all of your faith in the Catholic version of the Bible? Fools! Get the truth, quit fiddling with these theives in the pulpits, and clean yourselves of your afflictions!!


[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

GREAT MIND.


Nice piece of truth, nice, real nice!!!!

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553089

WORTH REPEATING!!!!!!!


Yes, study the bible that still possess the book of Enoch within its pages, you'll be protected and who knows, maybe even raptured!!!!!!

Thanks Poster and GOD bless you!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:44 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Personally I couldn't care less about going to heaven or being right. The most important thing to me is to represent the authors of ALL of the books of the bible with the truth. The Pseudopigrapha, the Apocrypha, and the Holy Bible. Unfortunatly most people that say they are christians are actually catholics. No? Hmmm, then why do you study and base all of your faith in the Catholic version of the Bible? Fools! Get the truth, quit fiddling with these theives in the pulpits, and clean yourselves of your afflictions!!


[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

GREAT MIND.


Nice piece of truth, nice, real nice!!!!


WORTH REPEATING!!!!!!!


Yes, study the bible that still possess the book of Enoch within its pages, you'll be protected and who knows, maybe even raptured!!!!!!

Thanks Poster and GOD bless you!!!!

 Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089


Wait a minute, weren't you just debating me?
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2008 04:46 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The rapture will be exactly like Wile E Coyote...

You will fall off the cliff (go through Tribulations), hit the ground (be persecuted), and then your chute will pop out (rapture comes).

anonstoner

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