Godlike Productions - Conspiracy Forum
Users Online Now: 2,262 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 1,606,686
Pageviews Today: 2,239,343Threads Today: 620Posts Today: 12,043
07:03 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
A Concerned Canadian

User ID: 548714
Canada
11/17/2008 11:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.
 Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089

Hey!! Me again.

Whats a aeon?

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

According to wiki it means "Age", "Forever" or "For Eternity".
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/17/2008 11:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Don't y'all get mad at me. Just saying.
Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
Canada
11/17/2008 11:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
553089-Three rules to remember.


Never drink and drive.


Never drink and dress.



Never drink and try to interpret the Bible.



A word to the hermeneutically challenged.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628

By experience I imagine. Thanks, but some of us know how to keep our liquor.


You keep abiding by the said set of rules that have no doubt been beneficial in your life.
Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
Canada
11/17/2008 11:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Hey!! Me again.

Whats a aeon?

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

According to wiki it means "Age", "Forever" or "For Eternity".
 Quoting: A Concerned Canadian

An "age" a space of time no doubt referred to as in the future "there will be."

This is us.


Jesus is devil. All Christian fundamentals come from Enoch. All Judaism fundamentals come from Enoch. Islam spawned from the two and have fundamentals from Enoch.
Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
Canada
11/17/2008 11:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
 Quoting: A Concerned Canadian

Jesus was the Egyptian God/King who enslaved the first chosen people. GOD'S chosen have become enslaved once more.

[link to www.religioustolerance.org]
Cassie :-)

User ID: 507059
United States
11/18/2008 12:00 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
For any who would like to compare the Rapture (When Jesus comes as a thief in the night for his saints) to His 2nd coming (When He comes with His saints to the battlefield of Meggido, Where He comes as a conquering king in full view of All of Earth's inhabitants.) This site below has a great comparison chart that lists the differences, with all of the Biblical Verses for reference and study.

[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

And this is the record, that God hath given
FHL(C)

User ID: 468982
China
11/18/2008 02:49 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I believe the catching away, the blink of an eye and associated verses, amongst other things.
I do not believe in a general everybody who claims to be a believer, "rapture".
FHL(C)

User ID: 468982
China
11/18/2008 02:53 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I believe the catching away, the blink of an eye and associated verses, amongst other things.
I do not believe in a general everybody who claims to be a believer, "rapture".
 Quoting: FHL(C)

Just for starters there are going to be the unwise virgins, and if that is a % result, then its a 50% cut off.
And as much as Lester may disagree with me about issues non salvation, he is correct that if He(our Lord and God) does not know you, you missed the Ark.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553308
United States
11/18/2008 03:01 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
O.K. People.

I will VERY EASILY disprove the Pre-trib "rapture" theory:

Read the famous "rapture" verses in

I Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most people stop right here but if you continue reading their is a clue to the timing of this event.

I Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I think we can all agree that here, he is still addressing the "rapture" subject in the above verses.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Again, he's still in context with the famous "rapture" verses. Look at how he refers to this event by:

THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!!

Now you may be thinking so what? what does that tell us?

Well, lets look at what the bible tells us about the day of the Lord:

Joel 2:31

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14-15

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13:9-10

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Do you see the correlation between all these verses? That's right, they all describe the same celestial events:

Sun & moon darkened, stars shall not give their light

So what does this have to do with the timing of the "rapture"

Well, lets go to Matt 24:29

Here the disciples have asked Christ what will precede his second coming. Listen to what he tells them!

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

CHRIST, BY DESCRIBING THE SAME CELESTIAL ANAMOLIES, HAS JUST SET A TIMELINE FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD (RAPTURE) AS HAPPENING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!

Look what he goes on to tell his disciples:


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you see that this description lines up perfectly with the famous "rapture" passage of I Thess 4?

Look at the similarities:

I Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout
Matt 24:30-31
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

I Thess 4:16-17
with the voice of the archangel

Matt 24:30-31
And he shall send his angels

I Thess 4:16-17
and with the trump of God

Matt 24:30-31
with a great sound of a trumpet

I Thess 4:16-17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up

Matt 24:30-31
and they shall gather together his elect

We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!



God Bless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607



You are 100% correct. Unfortunately the Comfort Christians absolutely hate the plain and simple truth. They MUCH prefer placing their faith in the Tim LaHayes and Hal Lindseys of the world. Both of whom have profited TREMENDOUSLY by pushing false doctrines.

Sad.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553308
United States
11/18/2008 03:13 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
it doesn't matter when the rapture occurs

we still have the same task at hand getting the Gospel out

endless arguments are fruitless and diversionary

a pre-tribber can cite verses as well so can a mid-tribber prewrath etc etc

we frankly won't know til it happens

fruits of the Spirit love joy peace &c.

rb


It doesn't matter for those who are spiritual prepared, but what about those who aren't? There are many "Christians" who live like the world and think they will be taken out in the rapture before anything bad happens. It's that group who are going to be off guard and will probably pledge allegiance to the beast because they weren't prepared. So it does matter about the truth of the timing. And frankly we do know when it will happen, because the bible tells us when it will occur.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607







Well gee whizzz... Most of these same people are SUN-day keepers anyway. They are neck-deep in the system, Mystery Babylon the great. They already accept Romes Mark of authority (SUN-day observance), and they have total disdain for those who believe in the sign between God and His true people.

Gods true people will suffer the hottest persecution from mainstream "Christianity", who believe that they will be doing God a service.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553717
United States
11/18/2008 09:52 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Well apparently I was unsuccessfull in ending the "rapture" debate! I guess scriptural proof isn't enough anymore. Pretty sad really.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607

What IS sad is your smugness and arrogance -- you didn't come to gently correct or merely express a viewpoint; you came to hit Christians over the head with a Bible.

In a nutshell you came to sow discord under the guise of reproof. You know full well that sincere believers have honest disagreements regarding this doctrine. You bait and scorn them with a mocking tone. This is sin.

Envy, strife, and dissensions are not of God, and Christians ought not foment these. We are rather to strive for unity. There's more than enough discord in the body already.

It's perfectly okay to present an honest viewpoint -- even if it is quite different than the mainstream. We don't all interpret scripture the same. But to do so dogmatically, without commensurate humility, puts others on the defensive.

It's good to hash out these issues. Yet we must remember to do so lovingly.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 551607
United States
11/18/2008 10:31 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
FAIL



Your facile interpretation is inadequate. You have it backwards. The rapture is BEFORE the tribulation. I will post a thread on this extensively in the near future.


As to your glib but unscriptural statement. The word translated "before" in Joel 2:31 is "paneh" and means at the "dawning" of or beginning. Now compare this to Matthew 24:29 where the word rendered 'after' is META, an adverb with literally dozens of nuanced meanings. One of these is "immediately coming into" implying at the beginning of something.( I believe this was in Liddel-Scott lexicon...I could be wrong. But it IS one of the many meanings of "meta".) Now "before",the KJV emphasis, doesn't really jive with the "dawning" implying beginning. And "after" doesn't jive with the sense of being at the immediate beginning; but these interpretations i present are supported by the first rule of interpretation: context. They allow both Joel and matthew to very straightforwardly describe cosmic events at the dawning or immediate beginning of the tribulation. This includes the rapture. In your zeal to rewrite Holy Writ, you unwittingly have helped to settle this exegetical conundrum IN FAVOR of the pre-tribulation rapture. Thank you.


You wish to imply that this eclipsing of heavenly bodies is "after" the tribulation but "before" the day of the Lord. Using Occam's Razor,we see you are straining to put Joel and Matthew together in context with a convoluted adverbial construct using two adverbs that have diametrically opposite meanings..."before" and "after",whereas they both are clearly describing a celestial event that is at the DAWN or IMMEDIATELY UPON ENTERING the Tribulation. You rightly place the Rapture and "Day of the Lord" in the context of the celestial events; but the deep syntax and adverbial structure points to the PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.



You lose. Please be more careful with Holy Writ in the future and stop obfuscating proper eschatological doctrine. Jesus said to pray always that we may be worthy to ESCAPE all the endtime horrors of the Tribulation (LUKE 21:36). Don't try to rewrite His Word on the Rapture ! Don't tell everyone they have to go through what Jesus said CLEARLY we should pray to ESCAPE it in the Rapture. You are a prisoner of false doctrine and would make others bound to false doctrine as you are.


I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.


Maranatha. And a lot sooner than you post-tribulational heretics think !
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628


That's the best you can do? Your arguing over the definitions of before and after? Clearly the bible teaches that the celestial events are immediately after the great trib and begin to happen just before the day of the Lord. You're going to try to argue that? Weak
I am not zealous to rewrite the scriptures by any means. It is my intention to know the truth always. I have fasted and read scriptures all the while praying to God for wisdom. I take this subject extremely serious.

As far as what Jesus says about escaping all these things - he was referring to escaping them while still on earth. That's why he told us to run the other way when we see the abomination of desolation set up.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 551607
United States
11/18/2008 10:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Well apparently I was unsuccessfull in ending the "rapture" debate! I guess scriptural proof isn't enough anymore. Pretty sad really.

What IS sad is your smugness and arrogance -- you didn't come to gently correct or merely express a viewpoint; you came to hit Christians over the head with a Bible.

In a nutshell you came to sow discord under the guise of reproof. You know full well that sincere believers have honest disagreements regarding this doctrine. You bait and scorn them with a mocking tone. This is sin.

Envy, strife, and dissensions are not of God, and Christians ought not foment these. We are rather to strive for unity. There's more than enough discord in the body already.

It's perfectly okay to present an honest viewpoint -- even if it is quite different than the mainstream. We don't all interpret scripture the same. But to do so dogmatically, without commensurate humility, puts others on the defensive.

It's good to hash out these issues. Yet we must remember to do so lovingly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553717


Ok for starters - it's not my viewpoint. It's the word of God. I haven't come here to sow discord. I do all of this out of all LOVE! This is love for those who are deceived and will be scratching their heads when the realize the rapture hasn't come or that the government somehow fakes a rapture and they missed it and yet the antichrist is waging war against them. I have come to show people the truth. The only strife is coming from those who choose to ignore the plain facts of what the bible teaches. I will try any tactic to show people that they have been deceived. If that offends you then maybe this thread isn't for you. I hope my statements offend you. I hope you remember. Maybe you'll search the truth for yourself and stop relying on the Tim Lahayes and Hal Lindseys of the world. Just because the majority of christians believe it, doesn't make it right. Look at the religious leaders of Christ's day. They had their doctrine all messed up and Christ rebuked them for it. It still continues today. Start relying on the Word of God!!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 418932
United States
11/18/2008 12:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
FAIL

I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.

Get off your high horse.


 Quoting: Asses & Elephants 553089


Oh, crap, you've gone and woken up the pompous van helsing. Now you all are in for a tireless tirade.
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 01:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
OP- You're big on bluster,deficient in knowledge. You know, there is a cursee at the end of Revelation on those who ADD to the Word in order to twist it. You say that in Luke 21:36 Jesus is saying to pray to escape WHILE STILL ON EARTH. Jesus didn't say that, YOU did. That's your invention. You are a scripture bender.You ADDED those words yet you speak them in your reply as if that is what Jesus said. That's disingenuous OP.



In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promises to keep the church FROM THE HOUR of Tribulation that falls on the whole earth. This means OUT OF TIME- completely away from the scene of judgement. According to your post-tribulational fibbing, the church is kept IN that time period. Again, you contradict Jesus Himself with your inventions.



Elsewhere (Luke 17) Jesus used LOT as a type of rapture. Lot LEFT Sodom. According to your exegesis, he would have stayed in a bomb shelter there. He didn't. He LEFT.

And NOAH moved over and above the Flood in the Ark. In your world, Noah would have stayed right where he was with scuba equipment or something.


In Luke 17:29 we learn that judgement fell the same day lot "WENT OUT". The whole emphasis is on LEAVING NOT STAYING. I will PROVE this presently. In Luke 17:31 there is a command to leave and NOT go back to get your stuff in the house. To LEAVE your FIELD and not go back. This is a reference to the command to FLEE in Matthew 24:17.THIS flatly contradicts your emphasis on staying not leaving-NOT being raptured. Now, you post tribulation people are famous for saying that the reference to being TAKEN in subsequent verses means taken to judgement; yet the context of the whole chapter is that those who LEAVE or who are TAKEN AWAY in the rapture are saved and those who are LEFT are judged. When the apostles ask "Where" ? They are asking where those left will be and jesus uses the quote from Job 39 about eagles to describe a scene of judgement.



The action of Lot,Noah,the people commanded not to go back to house or field is to LEAVE THE SCENE OF JUDGEMENT.NOT STAY- LIKE FAITHFUL POST-TRIBBERS would have them do. Lot's wife was judged for being slow to do so. She resisted the action of LEAVING. So do post tribbers. You try to make these verses emphasize STAYING for the tribulation when every illustration Jesus used is about LEAVING BEFORE JUDGEMENT FALLS. It's all about a PRE-Tribulation exodus in the Rapture. Lot,Noah,the people leaving field and house are all in an exodus. there is nothing,NOTHING, about staying right where they were to go through a test or something. THAT is a figment of false post-tribulational teaching and interpretation,wrongly so called.


You are a false teacher OP. You will have a false teacher's reward. Your post-tribulational ,non=Biblical musings may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Jesus punctuates the whole discourse with a simple truth: Remember lot's wife"(v.32). Lot LEFT the scene. His wife turned back and didn't want to leave
Free Indeed

User ID: 553763
United States
11/18/2008 01:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Ok for starters - it's not my viewpoint. It's the word of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


It is your viewpoint on what the word of God says. In other words, your personal interpretation. Your interpretation will never have the capability to dictate to any other human being in the world that your version is the explicit word of God. (It can be for you though)


I have come to show people the truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


Sorry but that position has already been filled. (2,000 years ago in Jesus)


Just because the majority of christians believe it, doesn't make it right.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


Just because you believe what you believe does not make it right either. Works two ways you know.


Start relying on the Word of God!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


On that we can agree. But, I will stick with the Holy Sprit as my interpreter, not a person.
>>
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 426194
United States
11/18/2008 01:53 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
For any who would like to compare the Rapture (When Jesus comes as a thief in the night for his saints) to His 2nd coming (When He comes with His saints to the battlefield of Meggido, Where He comes as a conquering king in full view of All of Earth's inhabitants.) This site below has a great comparison chart that lists the differences, with all of the Biblical Verses for reference and study.

[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]
 Quoting: Cassie :-)



Thanks, Cassie.
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 02:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Pneumatologically, the church CANNOT be in the tribulation. Jesus promised the church POWER over ALL the works of the enemy. If antichrist came up against the ecclesia of Christ Jesus,pardon me for saying so and putting a pin in your post-tribulational science fiction view of the Tribulation; he would get his rear premises soundly kicked the same way Christians,(real ones) have been doing to devils during healings and exorcisms for 2000 years. The church isn't going in the Rapture to escape the devil; the devil's only way to fulfill his role and escape the wrath and power of the church while doing so, is for the church to be taken out in the Rapture. Those victorious Christians who live in victory know this.


I work in deliverance ministry. I have heard these bastardly things scream in agony and defeat as they are forced to come out of people. My pneumatology is learned from experience. The devil must SUBMIT to Christ Jesus and His anointed followers ALWAYS. yet in Revelation we find satan overcoming the witnesses. well, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail over HIS church. I KNOW this to be true. That is an ALIEN dispensation that goes through the tribulation, not the Bride of Christ. Amen. And hallelujia.


And btw,this is what Paul taught-it's not my idea exclusively. He said of the antichrist that He who now lets( restrains) will do so until he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. That is the Body of Christ and His indwelling Spirit being TAKEN OUT in the rapture. And THEN shall the wicked One ne revealed.( II Thessalonians 2:8 ). We,the church, would BIND antichrist's power and there would be NO tribulation. It's in God's plan so we HAVE to leave. Glory to God.




While we are in Thessalonians,consider too that Paul taught that the Tribulation would not come "except there come a FALLING AWAY" FIRST. Post-tribbers say that means apostasy. Not so. More bogus eisegesis on your part sorry to say. The greek is HEE APHISTEEMI. "THE" DEPARTURE. The definite article indicates one,unique departure. There has been apostasies for 2000 years. It can't mean that. And btw every time that root is used for apostasy it is used with descriptive,modifying syntactical constructions like "departure from the faith" etc. No- THE DEPARTURE is the departure of the church, THE Rapture. Paul is saying that will come FIRST. PRE-tribulation kids. take it to the bank. It's what Paul AND Jesus taught. It;s what the OP wants to change and distort.



Not on my watch.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311438
Canada
11/18/2008 02:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Food for thought...

The Seal judgments are found in Matthew 24 & Rev.6

6th seal – The "sign"; earthquake sun darkened….
The Day of The Lord
(Rev 6:12 & Matt 24:29)

1)Sealing of God’s servants in their forehead Rev. 7:3 (Israel)

2)Rapture of Tribulation Saints (Rev 7:9-14 & Matt 24:29-41) (Saints)

Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come, who shall be able to stand?

7th seal – Silence in Heaven for half sn hour followed by the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments; God's Wrath



The enemy will be busy until
The Day of The Lord...6th seal.

Psalm 110
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 02:18 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Just an aside- there is something a bit DISEASED about the morbid teaching that we MUST go through the Tribulation. In my years as a Christian, Jesus never asked for my head. he is the Good Shepherd who guards the flock; not an Old testament legalist demanding blood,our blood.



Post-tribbers are ACCUSERS, always saying other views are soft Christianity in action. But in actuality, Pre=Tribulation doctrine makes us vigilant for RIGHT NOW knowing that Jesus will come, as he said, as A THIEF. Suddenly. Post tribbers have no idea what to do with this teaching of the Thief-like advent of Christ in the rapture.



Jesus used THIEF as a trope. Thieves TAKE things. Jesus will TAKE the church. This is a no-brainer. Now the post-tribbers like this OP here say Jesus will come for the church after years of unparalleled horror described ion revelation. Can't be. Jesus and Paul emphasized the church's challenge would be to stay awake for His coming. The foolish virgins you will recall fell asleep.


Now- who could POSSIBLY fall asleep during the cataclysms and horrors of the tribulation described in Revelation ??? This makes no sense. One can make sense of the thieflike coming of Christ ONLY in a pre-tribulational context. NOW, before things really start to fall apart, is the time when being unvigilant is possible. Hence, Jesus is teaching that His coming for the church in the Rapture is BEFORE Tribulation. No way to escape this relentless and rather simple exegetical logic. The ;post-tribbers go through more linguistic contortions and outright distortions than a team of Romanian acrobats diving through flaming hoops at the cirque de soleil to try to escape the simple yet truthful exposition i am putting forth here. When occam's razor is applied, only Pre-Tribulational teaching is left standing.



I have alot more to say about the rapture but i will do it on MY thread. Why adorn the apostate thread of a false teacher with gems of truth ? Still, i know some good people will be passing through this god-forsaken thread and so I wanted to make a contribution.



And OP. Wish i could say something nice to you. I can't. You are a false teacher. a pharisee. When you read what Jesus had to say to that "generation of vipers"; I even wonder whether I have been a bit too civilized.



Note to self: in the future,ream out the false teachers and pharisees the same way Jesus did. amen.
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 02:47 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
You know, the Pre-Tribulation rapture is the ONLY eschatological doctrine that reconciles God's judgements with His mercy. The entire thrust of God's actions with Hios people throughout both testaments is as a DELIVERER. God is an INTERVENTIONIST. This truth stand behind the PROMISE THEOLOGY that the modern evangelical and pentecostal churches have emphasized since the time of the Wesleyan revival. Post-tribulational teaching violates this essential aspect of God's Word and teaching.



Prophecy is a THEOPHANY. A revelation of God's nature through his intended actions. Your eschatology revelas your inner thoughts about God. Pre-trib people expect mercy and grace and inyervention for good from their heavenly father. Jehovah Jireh. Jehovah Rapha. The names of God denote merciful and protective intervention. God tests us but only to DELIVER and REWARD. Many are the afflictions of the righteous but God DELIVERS him out of them all. Amen,


But what about the martyrs ? Paul taught that martyrdom is for those NOT accepting deliverance. he said so in his letters. And I remind all you post tribbers that John Wesley and Christians for twenty millenia have passed on quietly in their sleep. Jesus didn't suddenly demand that they be beheaded for the glory of the kingdom. The dead in Christ will rise first. Doesn't give pre-eminence to martyrdom. The wholesale martyrdom of revelation,historic Christian martyrs notwithstanding, is a dispensational aberration. It's outside of the norm of Christian experience through the ages by and large.


Actually, many post-tribbers come from cessationist denominations who do not emphasize the work and deliverances and miracles of the Holy Spirit; teaching that that ceased with the book of Acts. False pneumatology gives rise to false eschatology. This is why they have twisted aroiund the true teaching of the rapture, because in their expectations of God as a hard taskmaster and fierce Old testament legalist, the rapture seems too easy or merciful. They distort the nature of God with their teaching. In reality, pre-tribulation demands more vigilance. we know we are not afforded the luxury of seeing the many signs in the book of revelation before Jesus comes. we obey the 11th commandment to WATCH now, not later when all these other things happen.


Anyway- I say this to disagree with those who think eschatology is just a petty debate. No- it is a revealer of hearts. It reveals what we think of God. Is He in the image of the Good Shepherd or is He in the image of a sterner more distant God of another age,another dispensation who will hand His sheep over to the devil for torture and death ? A devil, again, that Jesus gave HIS church complete power over. a devil he promised would NEVER prevail over HIS people. that's another church you see going through tribulation in the Book of Revelation. if you know and love Jesus, and know His Word and promise of the pre-tribulation rapture; THAT is a "church' you want no part of people. It is a fallen,judaizing apostate church of post-tribulation scripture distorters who,sadly and ironically, ARE bound for tribulation just like they say they are; but NOT for the reasons they THINK.
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 04:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Sorry to go on like this. What am saying ? NO-I'm not sorry. In fact, maybe i am being too brief. I was just thinking there hotshot(OP); you got off too easy on your interpretive MUTILATION of Luke 21:36. You say the ESCAPE has to be on earth whereas Revelation 3:10 and other scriptures indicate otherwise. Well, in this verse Jesus says pray to ESCAPE and to STAND before the Son of man. Where is the Son of Man, Jesus ? IN HEAVEN,NOT ON THE EARTH. The obvious thrust of this statement by Jesus is to ESCAPE and BE WITH HIM and NOT ESCAPE TO SOME PLACE ON THE EARTH as you would have it. No way can you get out of this without resorting to addducing words or thoughts that are not there on the page. it just bugs me no end to see you post-trib people blithely make up your own doctrine and write your own revised edition of the Bible.



Luke 21:36. A lodestone scripture for pre-tribulation rapture believers.
czygyny

User ID: 418932
United States
11/18/2008 05:25 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
FAIL

I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.

Get off your high horse.




Oh, crap, you've gone and woken up the pompous van helsing. Now you all are in for a tireless tirade.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 418932


Told you so.
Kletos, Eklektos & Pistos
VAN HELSINGI
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 05:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I am not done. Just taking a breather. I'll be back...



The Rapturator
Michelle

User ID: 483767
United States
11/18/2008 05:59 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
popcorn
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

yelk3@live.com
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/18/2008 06:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Thank You. Thank you. You are all really too kind. Thank you very much. Thank You. ... NOT
Free Indeed

User ID: 553763
United States
11/18/2008 06:05 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I am not done. Just taking a breather. I'll be back...

The Rapturator
 Quoting: VAN HELSINGI 394628


Good, I have been reading your posts.
>>
#
User ID: 553696
United States
11/18/2008 06:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The golden age thousand year reign here on earth is based on a few new age interpretations of scripture.


When Jesus returns to take the saints to heaven for a thousand years it is all over on earth, no man is left behind. Satan being left on an empty earth has no one to torment for a thousand years, followed by judgement and a new earth.


JESUS WILL NOT TOUCH THE GROUND AT THE SECOND COMING


Mat.24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


1 Thes.4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Matt.24:39-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


No one will be left behind but the wicked dead.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


2 Thes.1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Jer.25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.


Rev.19:19-21 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.......9 and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The saints descend with Christ in the new Jerusalem after the thousand years. It is this that touches the Mount of Olives.


Zech.4:3 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.......4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Rev.21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Is.65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.


Matthew 24:13, 14 - After the gospel is preached to all, "then shall the end come."


1 Corinthians 15:23 - "At his coming, then cometh the end ..."


1 Thessalonians 4:17; 5:3 - Those not "caught up," will experience "sudden destruction."


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 - When Jesus comes in flaming fire, the lost will be destroyed.


Revelation 16:17, 18 - During the seventh trumpet, cities crumble around the world.


Revelation 6:14; 16:20 - Every island sinks, and all the mountains disappear.


Jeremiah 4:23-26 - Planet Earth is totally devastated, with "no man" left alive.


Jeremiah 25:30-33 - Those slain by the Lord lie dead, unburied, all around the world.


Revelation 19:17, 18, 21 - The birds eat the flesh of every human being left behind worldwide.





Christian Zionism and the Rapture hoax from the Jesuits
[link to www.historicist.com]

End Time Delusions - Rapture Delusions
[link to video.google.com]
rb
User ID: 554047
United States
11/18/2008 06:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
heavens! there are probably what 5 1/2 billion unsaved people on this planet at least!

in my opinion it behooves us as believers to place out focus on getting the Gospel message out rather than trying to convince other Christians we know better how to correctly interpret controversial scriptures

last time I looked belief in a particular timing of end times events wasn't a prerequisite for salvation

remember the greatest of these is love they will know us by our love

peace and joy!

rb
God.
User ID: 554049
United Kingdom
11/18/2008 06:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Isa 64:4


 [link to www.chaospacks.me.uk] 



Enjoy my Children I love you all.

News