|
| |
| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 | ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
| Lotus Feet 
The Paraclete, defender of human rights
User ID: 433953
11/17/2008 10:42 PM
 | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Start again. Go back a few pages. Son of Man is a term used for the prophets that is why I gave you the Ezekiel quotes.
Lotus
You back track, you said that Jesus would send another prophet. You still haven't produced the verse despite your skating abilities around it. Maybe that's not what Jesus said or you feel let down that you can't defend Mohamed.
Salem aleikum... Quoting: Asses & Elephants 553089
LOL I have provided you with many verses. Son of Man is the name given to the prophets. In the verses that I gave you it mentions Jesus telling you that the Son of Man will come and Jesus tells you how to recogise the signs. These are real events that have already happened in the last five years. In other translations Jesus says he will send his witness. Now think on; how can a person witness that they have seen and spoken to Jesus unless they are walking on the earth? How can they hear and pass on his words if they are not here speaking to you now?
As I told you before there is a lot more that I could share with you but if you are not willing to drink the milk there is no point giving you any of the meat.
Mo was not the Paraclete, he did not give glory to Jesus and our father. He did not explain the Christ teachings and pass on the words of Jesus as I have been doing for a few years.
Lotus
People are not a commodity, without love they become so. Parents are the guardians of the soul, a precious gem born to shine. It is the guardian’s responsibility to ensure that gem is not reshaped, but allowed to BE its natural state. Children are the supreme joy of human life’ "God's will is compelled by love into compassionate action to save." "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God."
In my integrity you uphold me and set me in your presence forever. Psa 41:12 "The LORD within her is righteous; he does no wrong. Morning by morning he dispenses his justice, and every new day he does not fail, yet the unrighteous know no shame." Zephaniah 3:4-6 |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/17/2008 10:49 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
FAIL
Your facile interpretation is inadequate. You have it backwards. The rapture is BEFORE the tribulation. I will post a thread on this extensively in the near future.
As to your glib but unscriptural statement. The word translated "before" in Joel 2:31 is "paneh" and means at the "dawning" of or beginning. Now compare this to Matthew 24:29 where the word rendered 'after' is META, an adverb with literally dozens of nuanced meanings. One of these is "immediately coming into" implying at the beginning of something.( I believe this was in Liddel-Scott lexicon...I could be wrong. But it IS one of the many meanings of "meta".) Now "before",the KJV emphasis, doesn't really jive with the "dawning" implying beginning. And "after" doesn't jive with the sense of being at the immediate beginning; but these interpretations i present are supported by the first rule of interpretation: context. They allow both Joel and matthew to very straightforwardly describe cosmic events at the dawning or immediate beginning of the tribulation. This includes the rapture. In your zeal to rewrite Holy Writ, you unwittingly have helped to settle this exegetical conundrum IN FAVOR of the pre-tribulation rapture. Thank you.
You wish to imply that this eclipsing of heavenly bodies is "after" the tribulation but "before" the day of the Lord. Using Occam's Razor,we see you are straining to put Joel and Matthew together in context with a convoluted adverbial construct using two adverbs that have diametrically opposite meanings..."before" and "after",whereas they both are clearly describing a celestial event that is at the DAWN or IMMEDIATELY UPON ENTERING the Tribulation. You rightly place the Rapture and "Day of the Lord" in the context of the celestial events; but the deep syntax and adverbial structure points to the PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.
You lose. Please be more careful with Holy Writ in the future and stop obfuscating proper eschatological doctrine. Jesus said to pray always that we may be worthy to ESCAPE all the endtime horrors of the Tribulation (LUKE 21:36). Don't try to rewrite His Word on the Rapture ! Don't tell everyone they have to go through what Jesus said CLEARLY we should pray to ESCAPE it in the Rapture. You are a prisoner of false doctrine and would make others bound to false doctrine as you are.
I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.
Maranatha. And a lot sooner than you post-tribulational heretics think ! |
| Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
11/17/2008 10:59 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
You back track, you said that Jesus would send another prophet. You still haven't produced the verse despite your skating abilities around it. Maybe that's not what Jesus said or you feel let down that you can't defend Mohamed.
Salem aleikum...
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
LOL I have provided you with many verses. Son of Man is the name given to the prophets. In the verses that I gave you it mentions Jesus telling you that the Son of Man will come and Jesus tells you how to recogise the signs. These are real events that have already happened in the last five years. In other translations Jesus says he will send his witness. Now think on; how can a person witness that they have seen and spoken to Jesus unless they are walking on the earth? How can they hear and pass on his words if they are not here speaking to you now? Quoting: Lotus Feet
Son of Man is referred to anyone who is born of a man and women (ADAM), son of GOD are the angels or the first fruits. There are no prophets, there are only messengers. GOD prophecies and that which you call prophets echo the message, that's why I call them messengers.
I just want from you a verse from any book, canonical books and apocryphal, anything that says Jesus would send another guy, man, son of man, a dude, any reference that another human or sub-human would come. |
| Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
11/17/2008 11:04 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
FAIL
I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen. Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628
Get off your high horse.
Mark.13:[14]"When you see the desolating abomination standing where he should not (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,
(15)and a person on a housetop must not go down or enter to get anything out of his house,
(16)and a person in a field must not return to get his cloak.
(17)Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days.
(18)Pray that this does not happen in winter.
(19)For those times will have tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of God's creation until now, nor ever will be.
[20]If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days.
(21)If anyone says to you then, 'Look, here is the Messiah! Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
(22)False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect.
(23)Be watchful! I have told it all to you beforehand.
(24)"But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
(25)and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[26]And then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory,
-----------------------------------------
The desolation has occurred, and that which stands there is still standing there today (the Mosque). Islam according to Jesus and Mark has desolated the Temple by building upon it with the Mosque (Root of David) and Islam declared that Jesus is not the son of God rather a man/prophet. This event should have triggered the rest of Mark where the Son of Man descends.
Jesus obviously changed his mind, lol, he saw that the Muslims are way more fanatical about their worship then the little boy lover's of the Catholic Church which by the way all Christians are secretly Catholics for they all read the Catholic version of the Bible the one edited in 364AD, lol, and called off the rapture pulled the plug on the Christians.... |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/17/2008 11:16 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
553089-Three rules to remember.
Never drink and drive.
Never drink and dress.
Never drink and try to interpret the Bible.
A word to the hermeneutically challenged. |
| A Concerned Canadian
User ID: 548714
11/17/2008 11:16 PM
 | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Book Of Enoch.
2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.
LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,
The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament. Quoting: HI-JACKER 553089
Hey!! Me again.
Whats a aeon?
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
According to wiki it means "Age", "Forever" or "For Eternity". |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/17/2008 11:17 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Don't y'all get mad at me. Just saying. |
| Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
11/17/2008 11:35 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
553089-Three rules to remember.
Never drink and drive.
Never drink and dress.
Never drink and try to interpret the Bible.
A word to the hermeneutically challenged. Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628
By experience I imagine. Thanks, but some of us know how to keep our liquor.
You keep abiding by the said set of rules that have no doubt been beneficial in your life. |
| Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
11/17/2008 11:40 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Book Of Enoch.
2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.
LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,
The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Hey!! Me again.
Whats a aeon?
[ link to en.wikipedia.org]
According to wiki it means "Age", "Forever" or "For Eternity".
An "age" a space of time no doubt referred to as in the future "there will be."
This is us.
Jesus is devil. All Christian fundamentals come from Enoch. All Judaism fundamentals come from Enoch. Islam spawned from the two and have fundamentals from Enoch. |
| Asses & Elephants
User ID: 553089
11/17/2008 11:54 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Quoting: A Concerned Canadian
Jesus was the Egyptian God/King who enslaved the first chosen people. GOD'S chosen have become enslaved once more.
[link to www.religioustolerance.org] |
| Cassie :-)
Warning Do not L@@K into my AV
User ID: 507059
11/18/2008 12:00 AM
 | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
For any who would like to compare the Rapture (When Jesus comes as a thief in the night for his saints) to His 2nd coming (When He comes with His saints to the battlefield of Meggido, Where He comes as a conquering king in full view of All of Earth's inhabitants.) This site below has a great comparison chart that lists the differences, with all of the Biblical Verses for reference and study.
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]
"Go with God and may the Holy Spirit give opportunity to share the saving knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with your friends. Because "Friends don´t let Friends die without Jesus" |
| FHL(C)
Extrapolator
User ID: 468982
11/18/2008 2:49 AM
 | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
I believe the catching away, the blink of an eye and associated verses, amongst other things.
I do not believe in a general everybody who claims to be a believer, "rapture".
[link to www.geocities.com] |
| FHL(C)
Extrapolator
User ID: 468982
11/18/2008 2:53 AM
| | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
I believe the catching away, the blink of an eye and associated verses, amongst other things.
I do not believe in a general everybody who claims to be a believer, "rapture". Quoting: FHL(C)
Just for starters there are going to be the unwise virgins, and if that is a % result, then its a 50% cut off.
And as much as Lester may disagree with me about issues non salvation, he is correct that if He(our Lord and God) does not know you, you missed the Ark.
[link to www.geocities.com] |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553308
11/18/2008 3:01 AM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
O.K. People.
I will VERY EASILY disprove the Pre-trib "rapture" theory:
Read the famous "rapture" verses in
I Thess 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Most people stop right here but if you continue reading their is a clue to the timing of this event.
I Thess 5:1-2
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
I think we can all agree that here, he is still addressing the "rapture" subject in the above verses.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Again, he's still in context with the famous "rapture" verses. Look at how he refers to this event by:
THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!!
Now you may be thinking so what? what does that tell us?
Well, lets look at what the bible tells us about the day of the Lord:
Joel 2:31
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 3:14-15
14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Isaiah 13:9-10
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Do you see the correlation between all these verses? That's right, they all describe the same celestial events:
Sun & moon darkened, stars shall not give their light
So what does this have to do with the timing of the "rapture"
Well, lets go to Matt 24:29
Here the disciples have asked Christ what will precede his second coming. Listen to what he tells them!
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
CHRIST, BY DESCRIBING THE SAME CELESTIAL ANAMOLIES, HAS JUST SET A TIMELINE FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD (RAPTURE) AS HAPPENING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!
Look what he goes on to tell his disciples:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Do you see that this description lines up perfectly with the famous "rapture" passage of I Thess 4?
Look at the similarities:
I Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout
Matt 24:30-31
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
I Thess 4:16-17
with the voice of the archangel
Matt 24:30-31
And he shall send his angels
I Thess 4:16-17
and with the trump of God
Matt 24:30-31
with a great sound of a trumpet
I Thess 4:16-17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
Matt 24:30-31
and they shall gather together his elect
We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.
THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!
CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!
God Bless. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
You are 100% correct. Unfortunately the Comfort Christians absolutely hate the plain and simple truth. They MUCH prefer placing their faith in the Tim LaHayes and Hal Lindseys of the world. Both of whom have profited TREMENDOUSLY by pushing false doctrines.
Sad. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553308
11/18/2008 3:13 AM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
it doesn't matter when the rapture occurs
we still have the same task at hand getting the Gospel out
endless arguments are fruitless and diversionary
a pre-tribber can cite verses as well so can a mid-tribber prewrath etc etc
we frankly won't know til it happens
fruits of the Spirit love joy peace &c.
rb
It doesn't matter for those who are spiritual prepared, but what about those who aren't? There are many "Christians" who live like the world and think they will be taken out in the rapture before anything bad happens. It's that group who are going to be off guard and will probably pledge allegiance to the beast because they weren't prepared. So it does matter about the truth of the timing. And frankly we do know when it will happen, because the bible tells us when it will occur. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
Well gee whizzz... Most of these same people are SUN-day keepers anyway. They are neck-deep in the system, Mystery Babylon the great. They already accept Romes Mark of authority (SUN-day observance), and they have total disdain for those who believe in the sign between God and His true people.
Gods true people will suffer the hottest persecution from mainstream "Christianity", who believe that they will be doing God a service. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 553717
11/18/2008 9:52 AM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Well apparently I was unsuccessfull in ending the "rapture" debate! I guess scriptural proof isn't enough anymore. Pretty sad really. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
What IS sad is your smugness and arrogance -- you didn't come to gently correct or merely express a viewpoint; you came to hit Christians over the head with a Bible.
In a nutshell you came to sow discord under the guise of reproof. You know full well that sincere believers have honest disagreements regarding this doctrine. You bait and scorn them with a mocking tone. This is sin.
Envy, strife, and dissensions are not of God, and Christians ought not foment these. We are rather to strive for unity. There's more than enough discord in the body already.
It's perfectly okay to present an honest viewpoint -- even if it is quite different than the mainstream. We don't all interpret scripture the same. But to do so dogmatically, without commensurate humility, puts others on the defensive.
It's good to hash out these issues. Yet we must remember to do so lovingly. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551607 (OP)
11/18/2008 10:31 AM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
FAIL
Your facile interpretation is inadequate. You have it backwards. The rapture is BEFORE the tribulation. I will post a thread on this extensively in the near future.
As to your glib but unscriptural statement. The word translated "before" in Joel 2:31 is "paneh" and means at the "dawning" of or beginning. Now compare this to Matthew 24:29 where the word rendered 'after' is META, an adverb with literally dozens of nuanced meanings. One of these is "immediately coming into" implying at the beginning of something.( I believe this was in Liddel-Scott lexicon...I could be wrong. But it IS one of the many meanings of "meta".) Now "before",the KJV emphasis, doesn't really jive with the "dawning" implying beginning. And "after" doesn't jive with the sense of being at the immediate beginning; but these interpretations i present are supported by the first rule of interpretation: context. They allow both Joel and matthew to very straightforwardly describe cosmic events at the dawning or immediate beginning of the tribulation. This includes the rapture. In your zeal to rewrite Holy Writ, you unwittingly have helped to settle this exegetical conundrum IN FAVOR of the pre-tribulation rapture. Thank you.
You wish to imply that this eclipsing of heavenly bodies is "after" the tribulation but "before" the day of the Lord. Using Occam's Razor,we see you are straining to put Joel and Matthew together in context with a convoluted adverbial construct using two adverbs that have diametrically opposite meanings..."before" and "after",whereas they both are clearly describing a celestial event that is at the DAWN or IMMEDIATELY UPON ENTERING the Tribulation. You rightly place the Rapture and "Day of the Lord" in the context of the celestial events; but the deep syntax and adverbial structure points to the PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.
You lose. Please be more careful with Holy Writ in the future and stop obfuscating proper eschatological doctrine. Jesus said to pray always that we may be worthy to ESCAPE all the endtime horrors of the Tribulation (LUKE 21:36). Don't try to rewrite His Word on the Rapture ! Don't tell everyone they have to go through what Jesus said CLEARLY we should pray to ESCAPE it in the Rapture. You are a prisoner of false doctrine and would make others bound to false doctrine as you are.
I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.
Maranatha. And a lot sooner than you post-tribulational heretics think ! Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628
That's the best you can do? Your arguing over the definitions of before and after? Clearly the bible teaches that the celestial events are immediately after the great trib and begin to happen just before the day of the Lord. You're going to try to argue that? Weak
I am not zealous to rewrite the scriptures by any means. It is my intention to know the truth always. I have fasted and read scriptures all the while praying to God for wisdom. I take this subject extremely serious.
As far as what Jesus says about escaping all these things - he was referring to escaping them while still on earth. That's why he told us to run the other way when we see the abomination of desolation set up. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551607 (OP)
11/18/2008 10:45 AM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Well apparently I was unsuccessfull in ending the "rapture" debate! I guess scriptural proof isn't enough anymore. Pretty sad really.
What IS sad is your smugness and arrogance -- you didn't come to gently correct or merely express a viewpoint; you came to hit Christians over the head with a Bible.
In a nutshell you came to sow discord under the guise of reproof. You know full well that sincere believers have honest disagreements regarding this doctrine. You bait and scorn them with a mocking tone. This is sin.
Envy, strife, and dissensions are not of God, and Christians ought not foment these. We are rather to strive for unity. There's more than enough discord in the body already.
It's perfectly okay to present an honest viewpoint -- even if it is quite different than the mainstream. We don't all interpret scripture the same. But to do so dogmatically, without commensurate humility, puts others on the defensive.
It's good to hash out these issues. Yet we must remember to do so lovingly. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553717
Ok for starters - it's not my viewpoint. It's the word of God. I haven't come here to sow discord. I do all of this out of all LOVE! This is love for those who are deceived and will be scratching their heads when the realize the rapture hasn't come or that the government somehow fakes a rapture and they missed it and yet the antichrist is waging war against them. I have come to show people the truth. The only strife is coming from those who choose to ignore the plain facts of what the bible teaches. I will try any tactic to show people that they have been deceived. If that offends you then maybe this thread isn't for you. I hope my statements offend you. I hope you remember. Maybe you'll search the truth for yourself and stop relying on the Tim Lahayes and Hal Lindseys of the world. Just because the majority of christians believe it, doesn't make it right. Look at the religious leaders of Christ's day. They had their doctrine all messed up and Christ rebuked them for it. It still continues today. Start relying on the Word of God!! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 418932
11/18/2008 12:56 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
FAIL
I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.
Get off your high horse. Quoting: Asses & Elephants 553089
Oh, crap, you've gone and woken up the pompous van helsing. Now you all are in for a tireless tirade. |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 1:39 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
OP- You're big on bluster,deficient in knowledge. You know, there is a cursee at the end of Revelation on those who ADD to the Word in order to twist it. You say that in Luke 21:36 Jesus is saying to pray to escape WHILE STILL ON EARTH. Jesus didn't say that, YOU did. That's your invention. You are a scripture bender.You ADDED those words yet you speak them in your reply as if that is what Jesus said. That's disingenuous OP.
In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promises to keep the church FROM THE HOUR of Tribulation that falls on the whole earth. This means OUT OF TIME- completely away from the scene of judgement. According to your post-tribulational fibbing, the church is kept IN that time period. Again, you contradict Jesus Himself with your inventions.
Elsewhere (Luke 17) Jesus used LOT as a type of rapture. Lot LEFT Sodom. According to your exegesis, he would have stayed in a bomb shelter there. He didn't. He LEFT.
And NOAH moved over and above the Flood in the Ark. In your world, Noah would have stayed right where he was with scuba equipment or something.
In Luke 17:29 we learn that judgement fell the same day lot "WENT OUT". The whole emphasis is on LEAVING NOT STAYING. I will PROVE this presently. In Luke 17:31 there is a command to leave and NOT go back to get your stuff in the house. To LEAVE your FIELD and not go back. This is a reference to the command to FLEE in Matthew 24:17.THIS flatly contradicts your emphasis on staying not leaving-NOT being raptured. Now, you post tribulation people are famous for saying that the reference to being TAKEN in subsequent verses means taken to judgement; yet the context of the whole chapter is that those who LEAVE or who are TAKEN AWAY in the rapture are saved and those who are LEFT are judged. When the apostles ask "Where" ? They are asking where those left will be and jesus uses the quote from Job 39 about eagles to describe a scene of judgement.
The action of Lot,Noah,the people commanded not to go back to house or field is to LEAVE THE SCENE OF JUDGEMENT.NOT STAY- LIKE FAITHFUL POST-TRIBBERS would have them do. Lot's wife was judged for being slow to do so. She resisted the action of LEAVING. So do post tribbers. You try to make these verses emphasize STAYING for the tribulation when every illustration Jesus used is about LEAVING BEFORE JUDGEMENT FALLS. It's all about a PRE-Tribulation exodus in the Rapture. Lot,Noah,the people leaving field and house are all in an exodus. there is nothing,NOTHING, about staying right where they were to go through a test or something. THAT is a figment of false post-tribulational teaching and interpretation,wrongly so called.
You are a false teacher OP. You will have a false teacher's reward. Your post-tribulational ,non=Biblical musings may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Jesus punctuates the whole discourse with a simple truth: Remember lot's wife"(v.32). Lot LEFT the scene. His wife turned back and didn't want to leave |
| Free Indeed
User ID: 553763
11/18/2008 1:50 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Ok for starters - it's not my viewpoint. It's the word of God. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
It is your viewpoint on what the word of God says. In other words, your personal interpretation. Your interpretation will never have the capability to dictate to any other human being in the world that your version is the explicit word of God. (It can be for you though)
I have come to show people the truth. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
Sorry but that position has already been filled. (2,000 years ago in Jesus)
Just because the majority of christians believe it, doesn't make it right. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
Just because you believe what you believe does not make it right either. Works two ways you know.
Start relying on the Word of God!! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607
On that we can agree. But, I will stick with the Holy Sprit as my interpreter, not a person.
>> |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 426194
11/18/2008 1:53 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
For any who would like to compare the Rapture (When Jesus comes as a thief in the night for his saints) to His 2nd coming (When He comes with His saints to the battlefield of Meggido, Where He comes as a conquering king in full view of All of Earth's inhabitants.) This site below has a great comparison chart that lists the differences, with all of the Biblical Verses for reference and study.
[ link to www.bibleprophesy.org]
Thanks, Cassie. |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 2:02 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Pneumatologically, the church CANNOT be in the tribulation. Jesus promised the church POWER over ALL the works of the enemy. If antichrist came up against the ecclesia of Christ Jesus,pardon me for saying so and putting a pin in your post-tribulational science fiction view of the Tribulation; he would get his rear premises soundly kicked the same way Christians,(real ones) have been doing to devils during healings and exorcisms for 2000 years. The church isn't going in the Rapture to escape the devil; the devil's only way to fulfill his role and escape the wrath and power of the church while doing so, is for the church to be taken out in the Rapture. Those victorious Christians who live in victory know this.
I work in deliverance ministry. I have heard these bastardly things scream in agony and defeat as they are forced to come out of people. My pneumatology is learned from experience. The devil must SUBMIT to Christ Jesus and His anointed followers ALWAYS. yet in Revelation we find satan overcoming the witnesses. well, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail over HIS church. I KNOW this to be true. That is an ALIEN dispensation that goes through the tribulation, not the Bride of Christ. Amen. And hallelujia.
And btw,this is what Paul taught-it's not my idea exclusively. He said of the antichrist that He who now lets( restrains) will do so until he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. That is the Body of Christ and His indwelling Spirit being TAKEN OUT in the rapture. And THEN shall the wicked One ne revealed.( II Thessalonians 2:8 ). We,the church, would BIND antichrist's power and there would be NO tribulation. It's in God's plan so we HAVE to leave. Glory to God.
While we are in Thessalonians,consider too that Paul taught that the Tribulation would not come "except there come a FALLING AWAY" FIRST. Post-tribbers say that means apostasy. Not so. More bogus eisegesis on your part sorry to say. The greek is HEE APHISTEEMI. "THE" DEPARTURE. The definite article indicates one,unique departure. There has been apostasies for 2000 years. It can't mean that. And btw every time that root is used for apostasy it is used with descriptive,modifying syntactical constructions like "departure from the faith" etc. No- THE DEPARTURE is the departure of the church, THE Rapture. Paul is saying that will come FIRST. PRE-tribulation kids. take it to the bank. It's what Paul AND Jesus taught. It;s what the OP wants to change and distort.
Not on my watch. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311438
11/18/2008 2:03 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Food for thought...
The Seal judgments are found in Matthew 24 & Rev.6
6th seal – The "sign"; earthquake sun darkened….
The Day of The Lord
(Rev 6:12 & Matt 24:29)
1)Sealing of God’s servants in their forehead Rev. 7:3 (Israel)
2)Rapture of Tribulation Saints (Rev 7:9-14 & Matt 24:29-41) (Saints)
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come, who shall be able to stand?
7th seal – Silence in Heaven for half sn hour followed by the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments; God's Wrath
The enemy will be busy until
The Day of The Lord...6th seal.
Psalm 110
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 2:18 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Just an aside- there is something a bit DISEASED about the morbid teaching that we MUST go through the Tribulation. In my years as a Christian, Jesus never asked for my head. he is the Good Shepherd who guards the flock; not an Old testament legalist demanding blood,our blood.
Post-tribbers are ACCUSERS, always saying other views are soft Christianity in action. But in actuality, Pre=Tribulation doctrine makes us vigilant for RIGHT NOW knowing that Jesus will come, as he said, as A THIEF. Suddenly. Post tribbers have no idea what to do with this teaching of the Thief-like advent of Christ in the rapture.
Jesus used THIEF as a trope. Thieves TAKE things. Jesus will TAKE the church. This is a no-brainer. Now the post-tribbers like this OP here say Jesus will come for the church after years of unparalleled horror described ion revelation. Can't be. Jesus and Paul emphasized the church's challenge would be to stay awake for His coming. The foolish virgins you will recall fell asleep.
Now- who could POSSIBLY fall asleep during the cataclysms and horrors of the tribulation described in Revelation ??? This makes no sense. One can make sense of the thieflike coming of Christ ONLY in a pre-tribulational context. NOW, before things really start to fall apart, is the time when being unvigilant is possible. Hence, Jesus is teaching that His coming for the church in the Rapture is BEFORE Tribulation. No way to escape this relentless and rather simple exegetical logic. The ;post-tribbers go through more linguistic contortions and outright distortions than a team of Romanian acrobats diving through flaming hoops at the cirque de soleil to try to escape the simple yet truthful exposition i am putting forth here. When occam's razor is applied, only Pre-Tribulational teaching is left standing.
I have alot more to say about the rapture but i will do it on MY thread. Why adorn the apostate thread of a false teacher with gems of truth ? Still, i know some good people will be passing through this god-forsaken thread and so I wanted to make a contribution.
And OP. Wish i could say something nice to you. I can't. You are a false teacher. a pharisee. When you read what Jesus had to say to that "generation of vipers"; I even wonder whether I have been a bit too civilized.
Note to self: in the future,ream out the false teachers and pharisees the same way Jesus did. amen. |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 2:47 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
You know, the Pre-Tribulation rapture is the ONLY eschatological doctrine that reconciles God's judgements with His mercy. The entire thrust of God's actions with Hios people throughout both testaments is as a DELIVERER. God is an INTERVENTIONIST. This truth stand behind the PROMISE THEOLOGY that the modern evangelical and pentecostal churches have emphasized since the time of the Wesleyan revival. Post-tribulational teaching violates this essential aspect of God's Word and teaching.
Prophecy is a THEOPHANY. A revelation of God's nature through his intended actions. Your eschatology revelas your inner thoughts about God. Pre-trib people expect mercy and grace and inyervention for good from their heavenly father. Jehovah Jireh. Jehovah Rapha. The names of God denote merciful and protective intervention. God tests us but only to DELIVER and REWARD. Many are the afflictions of the righteous but God DELIVERS him out of them all. Amen,
But what about the martyrs ? Paul taught that martyrdom is for those NOT accepting deliverance. he said so in his letters. And I remind all you post tribbers that John Wesley and Christians for twenty millenia have passed on quietly in their sleep. Jesus didn't suddenly demand that they be beheaded for the glory of the kingdom. The dead in Christ will rise first. Doesn't give pre-eminence to martyrdom. The wholesale martyrdom of revelation,historic Christian martyrs notwithstanding, is a dispensational aberration. It's outside of the norm of Christian experience through the ages by and large.
Actually, many post-tribbers come from cessationist denominations who do not emphasize the work and deliverances and miracles of the Holy Spirit; teaching that that ceased with the book of Acts. False pneumatology gives rise to false eschatology. This is why they have twisted aroiund the true teaching of the rapture, because in their expectations of God as a hard taskmaster and fierce Old testament legalist, the rapture seems too easy or merciful. They distort the nature of God with their teaching. In reality, pre-tribulation demands more vigilance. we know we are not afforded the luxury of seeing the many signs in the book of revelation before Jesus comes. we obey the 11th commandment to WATCH now, not later when all these other things happen.
Anyway- I say this to disagree with those who think eschatology is just a petty debate. No- it is a revealer of hearts. It reveals what we think of God. Is He in the image of the Good Shepherd or is He in the image of a sterner more distant God of another age,another dispensation who will hand His sheep over to the devil for torture and death ? A devil, again, that Jesus gave HIS church complete power over. a devil he promised would NEVER prevail over HIS people. that's another church you see going through tribulation in the Book of Revelation. if you know and love Jesus, and know His Word and promise of the pre-tribulation rapture; THAT is a "church' you want no part of people. It is a fallen,judaizing apostate church of post-tribulation scripture distorters who,sadly and ironically, ARE bound for tribulation just like they say they are; but NOT for the reasons they THINK. |
| VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 4:04 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
Sorry to go on like this. What am saying ? NO-I'm not sorry. In fact, maybe i am being too brief. I was just thinking there hotshot(OP); you got off too easy on your interpretive MUTILATION of Luke 21:36. You say the ESCAPE has to be on earth whereas Revelation 3:10 and other scriptures indicate otherwise. Well, in this verse Jesus says pray to ESCAPE and to STAND before the Son of man. Where is the Son of Man, Jesus ? IN HEAVEN,NOT ON THE EARTH. The obvious thrust of this statement by Jesus is to ESCAPE and BE WITH HIM and NOT ESCAPE TO SOME PLACE ON THE EARTH as you would have it. No way can you get out of this without resorting to addducing words or thoughts that are not there on the page. it just bugs me no end to see you post-trib people blithely make up your own doctrine and write your own revised edition of the Bible.
Luke 21:36. A lodestone scripture for pre-tribulation rapture believers. |
| czygyny
User ID: 418932
11/18/2008 5:25 PM
 | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
FAIL
I have a LOT more to say on the subject...watch for my thread. my intention with this upcoming thread ? To obliterate arguments like yours OP, which do a disservice to Holy Writ and rightly dividing the Word. Amen.
Get off your high horse.
Oh, crap, you've gone and woken up the pompous van helsing. Now you all are in for a tireless tirade. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 418932
Told you so.
“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” ~Romans 12:21
Let adversity bring out the best in you.
[link to czygyny.wordpress.com] |
| VAN HELSINGI
User ID: 394628
11/18/2008 5:55 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
I am not done. Just taking a breather. I'll be back...
The Rapturator |
| Michelle
User ID: 483767
11/18/2008 5:59 PM | | Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!! | Quote |
 |
| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 | |
|
