ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

You are so wrong Tumbleweed. The Bible promises that the Spirit gives us an anointing to understand and there IS a true rendering of the Word. John said this in his letters. Everything isn't arbitrary and a matter of opinion. I did and posted some very careful word by word line by line exegesis to get at the very crucial truth of these verses. You obviously have no respect for careful interpretation and scholarship. You have NO understanding of why Christians labor so hard to know what the bible says with some exactitude. You say I am arrogant. No you betray an arrogant INDIFFERENCE to the whole process of trying to discern the truth. You are in no position to criticize me. I have manifested a love and enthusiam for the Word in these posts. I never see you post any Biblical interpretation. In previous posts pou indicated you see GLP as a bar where different types of lunatics,religious and otherwise, gather to casually exchange views. well, I take the Bible a little more seriously than that. Too bad you don't.

[link to 64.233.183.132]

Red Elk in 2002 with Rick Martin from The Spectrum Magazine:

"Today, we have no single country which is not as good, or better, or as bad, or worse, than any other country. We will be taken into captivity, except it will not be of this land. It will be onto other planets, other lands; other beings will be the bad guys. Other beings from other planets will be the bad guys who come to us and take us off. THE FIRST RAPTURE IS FALSE!

All these towers put up across our country, and I imagine other countries, are not just for microwaves—they’re for mind control, mass mind control! As well, there are some super-duper towers that can instill in us such thoughts as: “Oh, Christ is coming, Christ is coming!”—the joy, and everything else. And people will run out of their houses, stop their cars, get outside, climb their rooftops, do everything that the Bible says—emotionally controlled through these damned towers.

And then the cargo ships will take them up, physically. People will see them rising into the heavens—yelling “Hallelujah!”—into captivity, into slavery, sex toys, and alive-eaten food. I’m not talking all of the masses; I’m talking about those who should be the salt of the Earth, the so-called Christian believers. The vast majority of Christian believers will die up there!"

That's just it, if this were about the spirit of God doing the interpreting, then there would be far more Christians agreeing what is said in the Bible, than arguments. But that just isn't the case, this thread is proof of that.


You're right, I don't, not when all I see is arguing who is right and who is wrong. ANd that's all I've seen of Christians for 40+ years.


Again with setting yourself on a pedistal. You are absolutely no one to me.


Nor will you. What I get from the Bible is between the Spirit of God and myself, human intervention into that connection does nothing but create chaos. If that were not the case, there would be ONE Christian church, which obviously is not the case.

In telling you what I am about to Tumbleweed, I fear I am wasting my breath on you. I frankly don't think you CARE either about what I have to say or anyone else. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt, shall we ?


Reading the Bible has two levels. there is line by line ,word by word exegesis,like I have posted herein about the pre-tribulation rapture. But there is the RHEMA word also...that spoken directly by the Spirit to the soul. His spirit bears witness ro my spirit ,the apostle said. This word PRECEDES reading the words of the Bible. there is such a thing as inspiration. This interior word "lights upon" the scriptures and illumines them. This is the ultimate criterion for truth. There is a reason why 20 millennia of Christians not only read the Bible, they LOVE it. It is a gift. A charism. so- scripture is more than words on a page. It is a CONDUIT of Spirit and has that kind of power.


I am ADAMANT about the pre-tribulation view because prophecy is a theophany,a revelation of God's nature. The pre-trib view manifests authorship by a merciful God,the Good Shepherd,the Savior. The post-trib view reeks of moldy old Jewish legalism and doctrine. Paul asked of the Galatian church,who hath bewitched you Galatians that you want to regress to this stuff. This is a long story and has to do with cessationism,covenantism and other heresies and heterodoxies that plague the church. Point is, I have an interior reason to oppose the doctrine the OP is pushing. It's false doctrine and it also DISTORTS the face of the true God revealed in his Word and actions. It's not an arbitrary thing where one opinion is as good as the next. That's ok if you're discussing the ballgame. This is a bit more serious,if you catch my drift.

I know what you're saying about the mass mind control and all of that. I believe it. Do they have this planned for the Christians? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. But it's not going to happen if they do. What is going to happen, according to the Word, is the tares are going to be harvested, Mystery Babylon is going to fall, there will be the revival that Joel speaks of, the Jews will come to know Christ eventually, and then the end will come and Jesus will return. In my opinion, many decades in the making.

I do see what you are saying, I may be a hardcore biker from the world with just 9th grade education, but I am still quite intelligent.

Based upon what you just said, about the word from the Spirit: that is exactly what I am talking about.

Why is it so unfathomable that what the spirit wants you to learn from the words can be different from what another reader learns?

Why do you scorn another person because they don't take from the Bible what you take? Who are you to say that the other person is in fault, when they believe their spiritual connection just as adamantly as you do yours?

This is where I see the arrogance, that only you can be right, and no other unless they agree with you.

This is why so many people are so turned off by orginized religion, that the believer is not allowed to have their connection with the spirit, that the connection must be as the religion dictates it should be, just as you are doing here. What you propose, that others are wrong, wholly negates free will.

I found this site and am going to read it all.

Disclaimer - I'm not saying the site is solid, because I haven't read it all yet - but it seems to line up with what I believe. Nice to have it incapsulated. Nice cross-references.

[link to www.redmoonrising.com]

So Red Elk smokes dope. A lot of people do.



Many years ? I beg to differ. I think the Rapture and the Tribulation are imminent. The four horsemen are about to ride. Looking for WW3 potentials,the war the Rapture will be coterminous with, I'm guessing we have about two years...if that. Time to get ready to meet Jesus. We don't have the luxury of "many years" any more.

Using a book that seems to be composed of mostly circular arguments and contradictions to explain and end the rapture debate, well . . . it seems quite foolish.

You cannot use a book that might be fiction, might be true, or a combination thereof to explain something that has never, and may never, occur.

Yinses be ridiculous!

You know, the Mayan Baktun after 2012 says that it is the end of the word of god.


Shrug.

From that link recently posted here, chapter 7, like 5th paragraph:

"Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and that He alone is the Savior of the human race. If Jesus claimed to be the Messiah then New Age gurus become frantic in their search for an escape clause, because if Jesus made this claim then there are only three possible options for viewing His life and the impact He made upon this world. Either: 1) Jesus was a liar, and his claims were false; or 2) he was a deluded lunatic who believed his claims were true but they were not; or 3) the claims that Jesus made were true and He was, and is indeed, the Messiah and the Savior of the human race."

Or, option 4) God the Father is the Messiah, not the Son, because the change comes from the Father.

Tumbleweed. I am not always as abrasive as I have been with this guy. It's not just his false teaching. He's dishonest about the way he goes about interpretation. Jesus was pretty nasty with the pharisees.


If someone disagrees and has an honest approach,then it's a discussion. I have lots of those on and off GLP. But i do go into attack mode with people who propagandize and distort and i make no bones about it.


I saw your post about what YOU get out of the Bible. OK. But it's not bad to TEST it in the rough and tumble world of the churches. most only in name and not in substance. The interior inspiration, if it is of God, will stand the test of controversy. Of course, we don't always want to cast our pearls before swine either. Maybe that's what you're saying.


But anyway, my direct combative approach is deliberate...es;pecially here on GLP which IS a lot like a biker bar I am aquainted with. it's not my ONLY tone or approach. But I am a cult investigator and I expose spiritual scams. There is a boatload of ;em here on GLP. And as i say, Jesus was a little prickly with the pharisees. More than a little. So I am emulating Jesus when I get a little prickly with religious hypocrites. hey,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head making them read my posts anyway.

above post is mine,Tumbleweed.

And Tumbleweed, I am in the brotherhood too. Oh yeah,my wife and I have Yamaha Vino's. 50cc of raw power. I can take that baby up to about 30 m.p.h. . When I have my leathers on I think I am Blade. But the lady next door says i am more like Mr.Rogers. Sometime I will ride this down to the biker bar i mentioned and yell insults to the bikers and hop on my schooter, If they try to follow me I will wipe them out...no way can a big Harley Hog maintain stability going about 4 mph. They will all want scooters.

Actually the word used for falling away is αποστασια (apostasia)
Here is the definition of αποστασια (apostasia) in BDAG (a greek to english lexicon:

defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith

This is a clear definition of a falling away from the truth of the gospel. Not a church departure into space.

The subject of the falling away is given in verse 3 & then
Verse 7 and Verse 10 go onto describe it in more detail.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Oh yeah while I'm at it:

verse 3 also gives subject to the antichrist
Verse 8 and verse 9 go onto to describe it:

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

And lastly verse 3 makes mention of "that day" which is the second coming of Christ and our gathering unto him. Verse 8 and verse 14 go onto describe it:

8 ...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see a pattern yet?

Why would the these last two definitions stick to the subjects in verse 3 and the falling away described in verses 7 and 10 have nothing to do with the original subject of the falling away in verse 3? The answer is very plain: Verses 7 & 10 ARE addressing the subject of the falling away in verse 3. It's all in context. The greek backs it up. The english backs it up. The only thing not backing it up - IS YOU!!!!

Just be careful Michelle! Not everything in the Bible is true. You must know that most of the translations of the Bible are not correct, written by Roman Catholics.

Around the year 313 the emperor Constantine transformed the satanic church of Babylon (from the evil witch Semiramis and Nimrod) into the Roman Church. These catholics are still in control in this world, although many won't believe it. Their leader is Lucifer, that's why they cultivate Jesus nailed on the cross. The Roman Church owns Britain, Canada, Australia and the United States via The Crown Temple in London.

I'm not completely sure if things will happen like Red Elk pronounced, but I do am sure that one must be careful when one is introduced to enter spaceships that are supposed to bring one to Jesus. Don't sing "Hallelujah!" too soon.

Let that guy Van Helsing step in first together with his Dracula and wait and see what happens to them. :))

Still at it OP?

Till the day I die.

Well here's the OP ready to post MORE error and downright falsehood posing as linguistic analysis. You are insufferably dishonest OP. To the CORE.


WHY, if your definition is definitive, did the Cranmore,Beza,Tyndale,Coverdale and Geneva Bible translate hee apostia as "the departure". We get nouns from verb roots. Aphisteemi means,among other things,: "put AWAY" "remove". In the new testament that verb is used 11 out of 15 times with the word "DEPART". And apostia in Liddell and Scott's Greek lexicon has one of its meanings as DISAPPEARANCE or DEPARTURE. YOU are pretending that the word only means religious apostasy and that is it.


You are so damned dishonest. Look in the mirror. Is your nose getting longer ? I'm betting it is ,Pinocchio.



The thrust of 2 Thesalonians is Chronology, not apostasy. He says we beseech you by 1) the coming of the Lord and 2) byOUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM. That gathering together unto him is a reference to the rapture. Even the note in my Holman Bible says cf. I Thess 4:16. The pre-tribulation rapture,not apostasy, is what is uppermost in Paul's mind and not this crazy,convoluted apostasy narrative you have concocted OP.



Look at the tripartite recapitulation of three verses and note how they are referring to the SAME event of the rapture;


1) the GATHERING UNTO HIM( v. 2:1

2) The DEPARTURE(v.3)

3) The TAKING AWAY( v.7)


Couldn't be clearer. Unless of course your brain has been a bit addled by exposure to Post-Tribulationist false doctrine.

BTW OP- you take verses 1,3 and 7 and BUTCHER them linguistically. You claim 3 and 7 amplify an apostasy by saying that he who "LETS" is letting the spirit of iniquity work in him. That word rendered LET in the KJV is the king's english for RESTRAIN or HOLD BACK. it is NOT about "letting" anything happen. Your supposed translation here rests on a rather silly linguistic mistake on your part.


You go on in a previous post( oh yes, i have been keeping track of your little exegetical fibs) to say this "letting" iniquity work goes on until one effectively is out of the way of Satan's plans. This is the wackiest thing I have ever seen claimed about any verse in the Bible. Paul is clearly speaking about the force RESTRAINING evil being TAKEN AWAY. That force is the church and the indwelling spirit of God in the ecclesia which is TAKEN by Jesus in the Rapture. There is no other contextual or even intelligible interpretation of that.( That explains the provenance of your rather unintelligible gibberish trying to explain these verses btw.) This BINDING power of the church has to be taken away before the Tribulation because antichrist would have to submit to the promise Jesus gave to His church that they have power over ALL the works of the devil. You have taken a pauline reference to this lynchpin of ecclesiology and pneumatology and turned it into a bizarre narrative about letting iniquity work and then being out of the way of satan's plans blah,blah,blah....you obviously make this crazy stuff up and you're not even good at it.



Really. Your thread and your doctrine and your prevaricating heart all add up to one word: FAIL.

But God works in mysterious ways. This thread is undoubtedly leading some to the truth of the pre-tribulation Rapture by way of your fumbling and disingenuous arrempts to rewrite Holy Writ.

The above is my reply to the OP. fyi

My brain WAS exposed to pre-trib through and through. Both my parents were & are die hard advocates for pre-trib such as yourself and this is what they taught me even at a young age. However, when I read the scriptures for myself, I was confused on where this story came from because I had to ignore blatant texts revealing a post-trib gathering. I soon realized it was a falicy designed to appease christian minds of the coming persecution. I have only recently come to a the full truth of the after-trib gathering. Thanks be to God!!

As far as your "gathering unto him"

I have already proven to you that Paul also refers to this as the day of Christ. The day of Christ or the day of the Lord is well proven to be an event that happens after the trib.

I am going to bring this debate right down to small baby steps and I want you to answer these questions truthfully. I am about to expose you so you can step out now if you would like.

Is the rapture referred to as the day of the Lord?

Hey listen, I am not going to play Jehovah's Witness games with you. I have made about two dozen points you have failed to answer. How about you explaining to us how you use the word "let" to say Paul is referring to "letting" iniquity work in apostates when that word is an english word meaning hold back or retrain, eh ? get out of that one.


How about explaining why you just posted saying apostia is about apostasy when it has multiple renderings including departure ?



You are going to expose me ? ha. I have exposed you for the fake you are. You are not going to play jehoveh's witness games with me to fritter the time away. I have obliterated your ridiculous attempts at rewriting the Bible to suit your tastes. You haven't responded to a single very careful exegetical or textual or linguistic point I have made and YOU are going to CROSS EXAMINE me ?! Sorry- I do not respect you enough to even grant you that kind of a two-ended conversation.Not aftyer all your distortions and fake translating etc. And I know you will be playing around with lunatic interpretations in a question/ answer masquerade. No way.



But do tell us about your translation of the word "let". I am ALL ears. And how did you miss the other alternative renderings of hee apostia ? Oversight ? Hmm?



No- I am not going to play twenty questions with you. No games. You got yourself into this mess. You get out of it yourself. I will continue exposing YOU, thank you.

ok who participates in the marriage?

we know we are the bride of Christ so doesn't this indicate we meet Him before His physical return?

btw it is entirely possible the pre-70th week rapture doctrine is part of the strong delusion God is sending

I fully agree plenty of Christians will be quite befuddled if they find themselves still here when the beast appears

I've had my own theories on this but lately the jury has been out as I've focussed on my personal walk, which tends to be hindered and unbalanced by too much emphasis on dogma

I'm happily not frozen in any dogma regarding rapture timing -- it would be very possible for me to become positive about matters like this -- and possibly positively wrong! LOL

to see sincere believers disagree so emphatically to the extent that they start shouting about demonic doctrines and threats of hellfire is a bit disconcerting to say the least

I don't do disconcerted so well LOL

so I don't know who's right and I won't take sides -- I know the harpazo will happen but of its timing I've only my own guesses -- and right now I stand hoping pre-70th week but maybe 6th seal or 7th trumpet and definitely pre-vials

sigh!

love joy and... peace

rb

You don't want to play because you know I'll pin you to the wall. You can go on an on and on about greek definitions about this and that but it still doesn't nullify the fact the bible teaches a post trib gathering of the church through and through.

I will ask you again, and if you don't answer me then this debate is over because you just plain refuse to acknowledge the truth. I obviously need to slow this down for you because you're flying at 30,000 feet thinking your high and mighty when really, the truth is at ground level. You're flying over all the facts and spraying the rest of us on the ground with useless garble.

Again,
Is the "rapture" referred to as the day of the Lord?

I've read interpretations where the harpazo happens way toward the end and the bowls happen rapid-fire and Jesus physically returns on the Day of the Lord -- I don't remember a week or 10 days later?

love joy and peace

rb

OP- Now you are playing the COMEDIAN again. YOU pin ME ? I have obliterated all of your crazy interpretations and now you want to STEER the conversation away from your gross inmaccuracies and false doctrines by hosting a cross examination game.


You have not answered one of the many careful exegetical points I have made. You expect me now to play a game with you as if I consider you my equal in this "debate". Here's how it' s going to go down pal. This is your thread and you made the claim that you solved the rapture debate. You did NO SUCH THING. What you did is make a fool of yourself and disgraced yourself with distortions an d mistrepresentations of the Bible. YOU are going to question me ? I just asked you questions you studiously ignored because you haven't a leg to stand on. You ignore my questions and points. You're ahypocrite,quite simply.


I am here and i will comment when and how I see fit not when you choose. I will continue to hold ytou responsible for your false teaching. This is no debate as you call it. If it was, the score thusfar would be about 25-0 in my favor.



No-you are on your own. I will engage you when and in the manner I see fit. No clownish person like yourself is going to steer my commentary on this thread . Do you think I was born yesterday ?

Now get back to your job of spreading false teaching so I can do my job of exposing your heretical re-writing of Holy Writ. Anyone can see the depth and rectitude of my exposition of the truth of the pre-tribulation rapture position by reading my posts. We don't need the likes of your persona as emcee to steer the conversation AWAY from the truth.



Debate OVER ? I have kicked your rear premises around for 10 pages and i can do it or another 50. It hasn't even begun. Or have you run out of false prophecies and lunatic Bible interpretations to post ?

btw OP what do you make of Daniel's 70th week? this is where a lot of pretrib doctrine comes from. also what is the role of the two witnesses and the 144,000 in your view?

hope I don't come across as having an axe to grind I'm just curious... a lot of posttribbers don't like dispensationalism

love peace and joy

rb

calm down VH he's admitted Rev 19 shows the marriage supper is before the physical return of Christ... please the histrionics are uncalled for although the vocabulary is impressive! LOL I still need to look up soteriology for goodness sake

peace love and joy kindness gentleness patience longsuffering

rb