ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

Ok lets put this to an end! The easiest way to study prophecy is to isolate similar " words or phrases " from the bible and focus on them. Here is a good example:

Rev 20:5 and 20:6 both use the the phrase "first resurrection"

No where else in the entire bible is "first resurrection" quoted.....

Easy enough :}

By the way when something is repeated in the bible its very important and very rare. This particular phrase has it in back to back verses. Amazing! I wonder if there are anymore in the bible. It might be the only one....

So here we see a very important phrase, so what do we do with it.

Good question? Yes I'm getting there:}

The people in the first resurrection are those who have overcome the mark of the beast and had not worshipped the
beast so, they were there when the beast was given control!

Do you see it yet? Rev 20 read it...

We are there at least half way through the trib!!

These christians are so blessed and holy they get to be priests of God and Christ and will reign with him in the millenium.

Thats where I want to be.

No matter what happpens. The bible cleary states that very few people will be left. Just look it up! If I have to give my life then so be it! Amen

Oh, and how about this.... these blessed and holy christians coming out of the trib are certainly not portrayed like this in the Left Behind series.

So here I am willing to overcome the mark and give my life for Christ and be part of his resurrection.

But sadly I'm deemed a "tribulation saint".

You no........ forget it............ pray for me

Im Ok now :} Lets go on...

Im about to link this with the most popular rapture passage in the bible. Yes you know it......1 Thes 4:16 and wrap up this debate once and for all!

1 Thes 4:15 according to THE LORD'S OWN WORDS (this phrase is only found once in the bible)we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not preceed those who have fallen aseep.

Do you see it? The rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection. Resurrection then Rapture!!!!

Remember .... Resurrection then Rapture

This is the most important issue in the bible concerning the timing of the rapture (pre, mid ,post) an unraveling it!


Its so important that it's repeated in 1 Thes 4:16!
" and the dead in Christ rise first "

Are not the saints from Rev 20 "the dead in Christ"

Well... are they. Certainly they are. they are Gods blessed people. They go first.... First resurrection>

I Thes 4:17 "After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up, with them to meet the Lord in the air"


Is not this the rapture. Do you see it?


Resurrection then rapture.

Oh, please try not to tell me that there is an earlier resurrection or a "before the first resurrection"

When the Lord said "this is the first resurrection " and repeated himself moments later "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection" He knew exactly what he meant. Amen

There is a second resurrection after the 1000 yrs

So there you have it rapture doesnt occur until at least half way though trib..... get ready... were in for the ride of a lifetime...

This is not just thoery... Its the Word of God

Dont let anyone deceive you, Jesus has a lot to say about false teachers in the end. Look it up. Use a concordance its easy.

Bless all who recieve this message with open hearts, for I believed in the pre trib rapture for 20 years until the Lord showed me otherwise.

You see you can't sell a mid or post trib rapture, but you can sell a pre trib one. Just look on your shelf you might have one.......

As a matter of fact 240 million copies were sold

You know... The Left Behind Series... the largest selling book series in history.


A million dollar lie! It makes me mad!!

That was really good, Ezekiel! Thanks! I completely agree. I think this is such an important debate to have. Some people think it only divides the body of Christ, but if you're a lover of the truth, you WANT the truth to be revealed, especially when disproving the doctrines of demons, which the pretrib rapture is. And if telling the truth divides some people, so be it. Maybe they're not lovers of the truth and deserve to be divided. That may sound harsh, but I'm sick of lies from satan being allowed to continue, and when the truth is told, you get attacked for telling it.

Hey, thanks for the reply. You reminded me of a passage when you said "they dont love the truth".

If you read the letter of 2 Thess (only 3 chapters)

You can plainly see that those who wont believe the truth about the rebellion and the revealing of the lawless one, before Christ's return( resurrection and rapture )He will seng a powerful delusion (by God) so that they believe the lie. WOW!!!!

I know that teachers try to say that there is a rapture in 2 Thess 2:7

Oh please, why would the Lord warn us that teachers would tell the people that the Day of the Lord has already come.


Why would He tell us that, "that day will not come( what day "the day of the Lord ) until the rebellion(falling away)occurs and the man of lawlessness(antichrist)is revealed who will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming to be God.

Why would he warn us about all this if we are raptured out before it!!

2 Thess 3:3 states " but the Lord is faithful, and will strenghthen and protect us from the evil one.

Why would He need to protect and strenghthen us from the evil one(antichrist) if we arent going to be there when he shows up half way through the trib.

Do you see it?

2 Thess 3:14-15 states "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Do you see God's grace, "warn him as a brother"

The one thing the enemy is trying to do is to get us be enemies.

The people for the most part are not to blame. Its the false teachers who lead his people astray.

You see, thats why God has blessed us with eyes to see and ears to here ..... to warn our brothers.

Lets not ever lose sight of that. Amen

Oh, one more thing 2 Thess is written to the Church, just like the book of revelation.

Rev 20:16 states" I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.

God help us.

We are told to have faith, have patience and to endure.

We are being instructed on how to behave against the beasts, and entreated to keep His commandments and belief.

People in western society are not suffering for their faith, yet...but the anti-messianic spirit is already at work in other places in the world and as the times darken it will become more widespread.


Rev 13:10
“He who brings into captivity shall go into captivity, he who kills with the sword has to be killed with the sword. Here is the endurance and the belief of the set-apart ones.”

Again, in Rev 14:12-13
“Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of Yahshua.” (Jesus)
And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’”
“Yea,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”


Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him (the fiery red dragon-Satan) because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death.The Scriptures, IFSR

We have the ability to overcome anything the enemy sends our way if we stay in Messiah.

What you're saying definitely makes sense to me. Good points. I think the comeback to your points, from those who are pretrib, would be that the ones left behind being protected and strengthened are the Jews who finally realize Jesus is the Messiah and those who become Christians during the tribulation, but that's because they've been taught the false doctrine of dispensationalism, which cuts up the Jews and the Christians and doesn't have them joining together, which Ezekiel says they will do in his prophecy of the valley of dry bones becoming one.


I hadn't even thought of this verse before. Thanks for bringing it up. I need to go back and read that again.

I was doing a little research on the rapture and I have to say that I am struck by how little love is shown in the discussion of this topic. I realize it is highly controversial, but does that give us the right to spew? Personally, I tend to look at Revelation from a spiritual perspective. John was a very spiritual author. When we apply this book to our spiritual lives in Christ, we cannot help but look inward. We become accountable in the present day instead of looking toward some future event that we can only speculate about. Only God knows exactly what and when future events will occur. The focus on Christians, however, should be on shining the light of Christ into a darkened world. I don't think we can accomplish that by arguing over the future, which has yet to be written.

no one will raptured because they are ignorant about the gospel of Jesus Christ 1cor 15 1,4,6 .when adam eat the fruit of the tree of the knowleged of good and evil they became sinners thats why we became sinners for the wages of sin is death.not repent and accept the Lord Jesus that's a big mistakes to all professing christians. this message for you if you want to be raptured. 1. First believed the death of Jesus of Christ is for yourself by faith. so your sinful nature is already paid. this is like adam in the paradise innocent or born again do not stop in this case you must also believed in the ressurection of Jesus Christ is for yourself this is also by faith.So it is parralell to agenlic or superman but Christ assended to haven so we must also believed to his assention or glorified or kins or ruler of the universe this all by faith .remember the problem we got sin in the body, soul and the spirit.Jesus solve this already when he died in the cross.It is the power of God into salvation to those who believed.

Not exactly. Do not think "tribulation period" or "The Great Tribulation" as certain periods of time. These two phrases are not found in Scripture. However Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is found in Scripture. The 2 phrases were invented probably to make teaching more convenient. However it is best to just think of the word tribulation in its normal sense when you come upon it in scripture. For example, force yourself right now to read Mt 24:21 just using the words that are there: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be." Just using those words you would interpret it as a very bad time of trouble. Period. However, if you have been conditioned to define "the tribulation period" as the final 7 years and "The Great Tribulation" as the final 3.5 years, then you will impose meanings on this verse that were not intended. Seeing the words in the verse great tribulation, you will think that this time of great trouble will last 3.5 years. When in fact, the next verse says that God will shorten those days for the sake of the elect. Another example is Rev. 7:14. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...." It was a time of great suffering but do not impose 3.5 years on it. This is shorter than 3.5 years because God's Wrath actually is announced with the 6th Seal and encompasses the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal includes the Trumpet and Bowl Judgements which if you read carefully take about 1.5 years total to complete. Therefore the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week will involve first Satans/Anti-christ/man's wrath for approx. two years.....then God's Wrath for approx. 1.5 years. Notice that "the great day of wrath has come" is announced in Rev6:17. Then the 144,000 of Israel are sealed for protection. Then a great multitude from all the nations which no one could number appear in heaven. The have their bodies as they are able to wear robes and have palm branches in their hands. This is the rapture. God will not pour out His wrath upon His own children. The Day of the Lord will then last approx. 1.5 years prior to Christ returning with His heavenly armies. Do not impose the man-made definition of a 24 hour day upon Scripture. In 2 Peter 3:8 in another context "one day is as a thousand years." God is not necessarily bound by human defintions of time and other things. Probably a better way of understanding The Day of the Lord is The Time of the Lord, encompassing all His wrath judements as well as His final return.

I am not a Bible believer, but I enjoy logic when I see it. You did well, rb.

I'm gonna ask one question: what does the Torah say?

The reason I ask is that the Torah clearly spells out when the Rapture will occur. Sadly, Christians turn a blind eye to God's revealed Word when He directly spoke it to Moses upon Sinai.

The Feast of Trumpets is symbolic of the Rapture and it happens prior to the Day of Atonement. This is our first hint that the Rapture will occur prior to His Return. Remember the feasts are in chronological order and will be fulfilled exactly on the day specified on the Biblical calendar, and sadly again, most Christians use a different calendar, a pagan one.

For example:

1) Passover - Nisan 14, 33 AD
2) Unleavened Bread - Nisan 15, 33 AD
3) First Fruits - Nisan 16, 33 AD
4) Seven (Pentecost) - Sivan 6, 33 AD
5) Trumpets - Tishri 1, ?
6) Atonement - Tishri 10, ?
7) Tabernacles - Tishri 15, ?

The first four were fulfilled in order and exactly on the Biblical date as specified all in the year 33 AD, so all we need to do now is fill in the blanks.

Here's an excellent link which provides supporting verses which fills in the blanks: [link to futurehistory.yadayahweh.com]

Word to the wise out there. The "Rapture" is fake. If you don't believe me, then read Ezekiel 13:18-21. Then if you're still a skeptic about the idea of the rapture as being fake, then read a book called Rapture Plot by Dave MacPherson.

I agree with you to an extent.....but please look up to where I have put: ??????????????? in two spots. These relate to your conclusions based on verses that have the word "tribulation" included, such as Matthew 24:26


THE TERMS "TRIBULATION PERIOD" AND "THE GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD" ARE MAN-MADE. THEY ARE NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.

AS SUCH, INCORPORATING THEM INTO YOUR THINKING CAN LEAD TO FAULTY CONCLUSIONS.


For Matthew 24:29......you should just interpret it at FACE VALUE......at time of great trouble.

You should not assign 3.5 years to it.....and conclude the rapture occurs after "The Great Tribulation Period"....and 3.5 years of wrath by anti-christ.

All that you have in Scripture about the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week......and Mt 24 did not say "after the completion of Daniel's week....the sun will be darkened, etc."

It said after a time of great trouble, the sun will be darkened. The duration is not specified.

Actually Mt 24 is a parallel verse to Rev's 6th Seal....which announces the Day of the Lord.....and His wrath. Following this the 144,000 are sealed from harm and a great multitude which no one can number appears in heaven (the rapture).

Following the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week....you have a period of Satan's wrath.....as manifested through anti-christ, false prophet, and man. Both Jews and Christians will be targeted.

This goes on for awhile....perhaps a few years.

Then you have the 6th Seal and the Day of the Lord....God's wrath.

God will not pour out His wrath upon His own children.....so the sealing and rapture occur prior to God's wrath (the 7th Seal trumpet and bowl judgments).

The Day of the Lord is not a human day.....but lasts approx. one or two years. The 5th trumpet judgment alone is stated as lasting 5 months.

This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture viewpoint.

Have a nice week.

Reading the first post seems that people really did not read Revelation very well. I think that people should read the first seven church that John send letter to. Now verse Revelation 7-13 will prove the pre-tribulation. Verse 10 Jesus state "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world" This was to the church of Philadelphia, now we all know does not exist anymore. Now when Jesus said, “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere" he is talking to Christian of this eras. You, me, and all the Christian of the world. Now when he said, “great time of testing" he is talking about the tribulation. Now we know Jesus is the Son of God and can do no sin and if the rapture does not happing before the tribulation then Jesus is a liar. In addition, if that true than he is not the Son of God and our salvation is meaningless.

Also in order for the first horseman of the Apocalypse, (the rider of the white horse), to bring the world to understand they need peace. Now in order that to happen a major event needs to take place. In addition, that event ladies and gentleman is the rapture. The Antichrist or the beast from the sea or the rider of the white horse (not Christ) will use the rapture to push for a false world peace.


In addition, another reason for the pre-tribulation is the 144,000 Jews. Read chapter 7 all about it. The Jew will finally see Jesus as their Messiah, preach to the world of Christ, and warn people of taking the mark of the beast. If Christian are still around that will interfere with God work and thus making the Jew failed in their mission.

Please next time before posting something reread through your bible. I can easily list more reason but I do not really have the time or the patience. In addition, I apologize for any grammar error I may have made. Either way it does not matter when the rapture occur because in the end good triumphant over evil. Moreover, Jesus will be victorious.

What disturbs me is the person who thinks that the "Mark of the Beast" is a tattoo on the forehead or hand!!!
The mark of the beast is MENTAL. The Lord comes back to make sure His bride is p-u-r-e and has not went whoring after the FALSE one. For those who are not well read in the Word they will be decieved! They will think the anti-christ is Christ and worship him thus giving themselves the mark of the beast! We, the elect will have the mark of God on our heads (meaning the mind of Christ.)We will not be fooled by this fake because we know Christ comes at the 7th trump NOT the 6th.

For the PRE tribers.

Lets see JUST how ACCURATE you have been.

And believe me..if you look through some of these threads you see the most VILE hatred speweing from PRE tribs mouths at all those who DARED to disagree with them..

BUT THEY WERE ALL WRONG..no matter HOW they tried to reason it out.

2010 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2009 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2008 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2007 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2006 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2005 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

2004 FAILS

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

Is The Church Going Through The Tribulation?....

[link to theendtimesblog.blogspot.com]

I found another interesting clue that there will be no pre-trib rapture.

It is found in the scriptures that tell the story of Lazarus' death. In the story Jesus is explaining that He would raise Lazarus up to life again. Martha said that she understood that he would be raised on the last day. Jesus didn't correct her that she had misunderstood about the last day. I believe that she had heard Jesus teach about the last days. How else would she know and why wouldn't Jesus correct her if she was wrong in her understanding of the resurrection.

This brought me to the study of the phrase "last day". Jesus said it several times.
John 6:39
John 6:40
John 6:44
John 6:54
I think Jesus said last day meaning the final day. Couldn't mean any other thing right?

I also have been studying the phrases last trumpet, the last days, the last time or times, and the last hour.

1 Corinthians 15:52
Could this be the final trumpet of the 7 from Revelation? And if so when do you believe the rapture will come?

Planet Alert Newsletter May 2011
from: *****Mahala Gayle*****

"Three days later on May 20th
our Sun will be aligned with Alcyone,
our central Sun in the Pleiadian system.
It takes our solar system 26,000 years to go around Alcyone.
May 21st is one day after we start the 5th heaven.
On that day Jupiter will be on the degree of a black hole on 27 degrees Aries.
This will open a doorway to a different dimension, or a higher frequency."

Maybe the 1st Ascension wave is scheduled
to engulf us on 21 May 2011 - Rapture:



Those who still will come here are those who were not taken :)

very simple and if you have a ? ILL GLADLY ANSWER AS LONG AS HOWARD CAMPING AGREES TO HAVE DINNER WITH ME 9 PM CENTRAL STANDARD TIME USA SUNDAY NIGHT IF HE WANTS. WELL THAN ITS A GOOD THING HIS FRIENDS HAVE DONATED THERE LIFE AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE EVER WORKED FOR IN THERE LIFE TO HIS CHURCH AND IF THEY DIDNT THEN PROVE IT BUT IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT IN 1994 THIS CHURCH WAS ........ OH YEA WRONG SAYING MY BAD ONE OF OUR PEOPLE CANT ADD LOL BUT WE WILL KEEP THE MONEY YOU GAVE TO US SO WE CAN FUCK IT UP AGAIN IN 2011 BUT ITS ALL GOOD PLEANTY OF STUPID PEOPLE WILL GIVE US THERE LIFE AND SUPPORT........(EVERYTHING THEY OWN)TO WATCH US FAIL ONCE AGAIN (oh shit its not 2014 wrong again back to the drawling board) hell 250000 more tries we r bound to get one right untill then live in fear and be stupid and give this church all and everything you have ever worked for and you will be saved so to end this post i say see you on the most importain day ever july 4 americas independance from stupid shit like this if im wrong i challenge the worlds population to laugh and say oops

YOU NEVER READ THE BIBLE MAYBE JUST A SATANIST, HUH?


WAY to go Original Poster!

There is NO Rapture! FOR YOU??? CORRECT[/b]

The Rapture is so clearly identified by God, that it becomes obvious that the confusion surrounding it is a deliberate attempt to hide it from those for whom it is intended. That's the result of tradition! God made it clear and easy to understand, confirming that He's not the author of confusion.
"...you make void the Word of God by your traditions..." (Matt.15:6)


By linking Daniel's and Paul's prophecies together we can understand that the significance of the Rapture to end time is the fact that the Rapture is the first event that must happen before the pact and the individual behind it can be revealed beginning Daniel's 70th week.

It is such a lie that most of the church has failed to look in to.

Really? I see you have generated alot of debate but that is far from proving you are correct.
You use selected verses arranged in such a way that "prove" you are right and I guess because of that any thing that might differ from you is thrown out as wrong.
The bottom line is that all who are born again, believe in the Lord jesus Christ and hold tightly to that until the end will be saved. Whether that end comes pre, post or midtrib is one of those foolish debates we are cautioned by the NT writers to stay away from. My lamp is full of oil and I'm listening for his call.
trying to prove we are right and others are wrong is not promoting the message of hope and salvation we are commanded to proclaim.

The pre-trib rapture idea is only about 180 years old. Just food for thought.

Thanks OP! Spot on and Biblical!

The pretrib rapture can't be taught using bible scripture only. The pretrib teacher HAS to use personal commentary to EXPLAIN what the scriptures really mean. Take for example Rev 4:1. They teach that the pretrib rapture takes place here because there is a voice that says "come up hither", and that this is BEFORE the seals start being opened.

I disagree with those that say it doesn't matter what is taught. The teacher is responsible for what they teach, and if they add to the word of God, they will be judged.

If you think your hope is in being taken, you've already ben taken. Taken means taken into the snare the trap, into deception.

[link to watchmenweekly.wordpress.com]

We are indeed will go through tribulations but we will escape the great tribulation.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds..


Its like there are earthquakes/ hails but there will also be great earthquakes/great hail.
Mato

Someone had said that the "pre-tribbers" can quote just as much scripture as the post tribbers. But I don't think that is the case. There is not a single Scripture that talks of a pre-trib rapture, but there are quite a few that clearly say the rapture/coming of the Lord happens AFTER the tribulation.

Some people say that "it could happen at any moment" and yet Paul told the Thessalonians to not let anyone deceive them by telling them that the rapture could happen at any moment!!

Read it for yourself>

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

You see, there is no need to twist this Scripture in any way to support any theory. We just read it for what it says and it clearly says that Jesus' return AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHR UNTO HIM will NOT COME until there be a falling away first, and the Antichrist is revealed. It also clearly says that we should not believe any "spirit" that tells us that the "day of Christ is AT HAND".

I think this Scripture alone destroy pre-trib rapture myths, though it is by no means the only Scripture that clarifies the issue.

Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

In the rapture, the dead in Christ are raised. This is the first resurrection - notice above, the first resurrection includes Christians who are killed by the beast.

Last Edited by No Dhimmi on 05/29/2012 06:36 PM

AMEN. The church has been misleading the sheeple. Those that walk the walk along with talking the talk know the LIGHT. Structured religion=control=greed=power=disinformation
Spirituality=light=divine