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VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 357032
11/20/2008 9:35 PM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
why is this so surprising? is this really news? |
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Pleeb
User ID: 514538
11/20/2008 9:38 PM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
BREAKING NEWS!
VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED IN MY POOL
Pleeb: a minion, level entry position, slave |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 508932
11/20/2008 10:42 PM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
were all gona be moving there after the nukes start flying on this earth which god knows with the chasis in this world at the moment could be very soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555448
What makes you think we won't take nukes with us to Mars also?
One thing you can count on, humans never learn. |
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Rota
User ID: 551142
11/20/2008 11:48 PM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Thanks for the links. I've seen some of them already but a few I haven't. Always good reading when it concerns Hoagland.
I have read many people who think of him as a fraud. I wouldn't argue with any of them but there is something that you cannot ignore. Hoagland has been set up as a "gatekeeper" for "alternative" Mars thinking. If Hoagland recognises it then millions all over the world take a look at it. If he does not recognise it then the ideal gets buried. That is a truth people interested in this subject have to live with.
I have always found it funny how Hoagland seemed to be handed certain jobs that seemed to give him credibility. Without really caring about it I just figured he was a member of the "tribe".....nothing new....nothing unusual.
But the bottom line is if you believe in something about Mars that is considered weird or not main stream then he is the only way available to get that ideal some PR.
I think he is a shameless self promoter that will promote anything about Mars or Space that will bring in a buck but he could also promote things that are real or turn out to be real in the future. So he is a tool that might be able to be used to promote new theories even if he takes all the credit.
. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 501511
11/21/2008 12:09 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
were all gona be moving there after the nukes start flying on this earth which god knows with the chasis in this world at the moment could be very soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555448
ha mothafucka said chasis |
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Whiskey Brother
User ID: 272605
11/21/2008 12:43 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
So lets pack up the truck Mabel, and gather in all the young uns!
Theys discovered water on Mars!
Ummmm....
You'll got a road map to that 10 20? Can't seem to find it in my 1934 Road atlas....
Alla the water here smells like somebody straight out, either put
sodioum flouride in it, or sulpher, or maybe both!
Makes the young uns act a might peculier, and even Mabel is starting to remind me of three day old tuna left out in the sun.... |
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i is that which i is 
Hawaii me sea, where you see?
User ID: 342515
11/21/2008 12:49 AM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
mars....home of the greys? fucked up their atmosphere had to relocate? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553932
Greys aren't the only ones from Mars.
Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. But you knew that.
That is why women are hot and men are cold. Or was it the other way around? 
"I am not afraid to stand alone, but it's always more fun if I have friends standing with me." Lena Coleon. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 555769
11/21/2008 1:07 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
And now NASA come on tell us there is life there aswell,we are all big boys and girls we can face the truth,life is on mars. |
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Barls Knarkley
User ID: 401789
11/21/2008 1:11 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
This is an example of how politically funded science (NASA) winds up politically motivated junk science (life on Mars)
NASA spends billions on researching the possibility of life on Mars
The latest rover discovers that Mars has a layer of perchlorate at least several feet thick (could be hundreds of feet...we dont know)
What this means is that when Mars had liquid on its surface that liquid
WAS
NEARLY
PURE
BLEACH
THAT
MADE
COMPLEX
CHEMICALS (LIFE)
IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because NASA had been putting out so much "hype" to justify spending BILLIONS of tax payer dollars to research the VERY SLIM POSSIBILITY that Mars ever had life...we now have an agency looking rather foolish right now. Quoting: Lastcall 555588
While I'm not a huge fan of the way NASA operates at present, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the foolish over this issue. Over Constellation, yes, but the Mars program runs deeper than you give it credit for.
For a start, there is more to the hunt for water than just life, even though they know how to play to the gallery in press releases and make sure that the word gets mentioned whenever possible. We know so little about planetary formation that any additional data points are incredibly useful, particularly in that it can help shed light on the origins of our own planet. That's one big reason why there is so much interest in Titan - few people expect to actually find life there, but life almost always gets mentioned, because the atmosphere may be a deep freeze snapshot of the origins of the Earth and give us pointers to prebiotic chemistry.
With regard to Mars, knowing how much water it had and where it went could tell us a lot about planetary evolution under conditions slightly similar and yet rather different to our own. More data points, as I said.
And yes, there is the hunt for actual life, past or present. The perchlorate findings are from one probe only, and even then the data isn't ironclad - some of the Phoenix TEGA results said it was there, but at least one said it wasn't. Your assertion that it is worldwide, and possibly hundreds of feet deep is completely unsupported by the available evidence. It might turn out to be true, but it might not. Given the rather wetter and denser atmospheric conditions that existed early in Mar's life, with all that implies for ultraviolet levels and associated chemistry, we can't say for sure that even if it is widespread today that it was there in similar concentrations in the past. Even then, it's not the death knell for life - deep volcanic pockets of water might be free of it, and it's even suggested that in low-ish concentrations it could also be used by non-Earth biologies as an energy source.
Personally, my gut tells me that life never got a foothold there. But we simply don't know at present. The single perchlorate finding may indeed place limits, perhaps very strict ones, on the possible range of habitats for Martian life, but it does not eliminate them completely, not by a long shot.
So no, trying to find it doesn't make them foolish. Taking a lone reading and arrogantly scoffing about it in best Dunning-Kreuger mode, on the other hand... |
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Whiskey Brother
User ID: 272605
11/21/2008 1:14 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
mars....home of the greys? fucked up their atmosphere had to relocate?
Greys aren't the only ones from Mars.
Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. But you knew that.
That is why women are hot and men are cold. Or was it the other way around?
Are you sure?
I thought it was "Men are from Earth, and Women are from some damn other place!" |
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i is that which i is
Hawaii me sea, where you see?
User ID: 342515
11/21/2008 1:15 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
 Hi Twin,
Lets go. I'm putting together a posse, er, I mean, a wagon train. Bringing my willow witching rod so we can go dowsing soon as we git thar. Also takin' my trusty six shooter case we run into any of them varmints.
This changes everything.
Let's go. NOW!
I have my bags packed. Quoting: Evil Twin
"I am not afraid to stand alone, but it's always more fun if I have friends standing with me." Lena Coleon. |
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i is that which i is
Hawaii me sea, where you see?
User ID: 342515
11/21/2008 1:25 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
mars....home of the greys? fucked up their atmosphere had to relocate?
Greys aren't the only ones from Mars.
Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. But you knew that.
That is why women are hot and men are cold. Or was it the other way around?
Are you sure?
I thought it was "Men are from Earth, and Women are from some damn other place!"
Hi Brother,
Well, some men are sorta earthly! As to the other, it depends on whether you are replying from a man's point of view or a women's? Some claim to be Angels in disguise, and mostly I will agree, however others act like they are demons from hell.
"I am not afraid to stand alone, but it's always more fun if I have friends standing with me." Lena Coleon. |
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Whiskey Brother
User ID: 272605
11/21/2008 1:31 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
were all gona be moving there after the nukes start flying on this earth which god knows with the chasis in this world at the moment could be very soon.
What makes you think we won't take nukes with us to Mars also?
One thing you can count on, humans never learn. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 508932
What nukes?
The ones we dismantled for the SALT talks, or the ones that Clinton sold the Chinese?
And why not take nukes to Mars? Haven't you seen the lovely pockmarked holes they made about 50 miles north of Vegas?
They tried to make it look like Mars.
And low and behold, a Government program that actually succeeded 100%
So I guess now they are about what, 1 successful program completed since end of World War II?
Fricka, fracka, fire cracker!
Sis boom BANG!
Government sucks, rely on yerself,
and dont drink shitty orange Tang!
Hows about next time ya aim a little lower for a successful mission completion within yer lifetime...
And, ummm.... I guess it is normal to think that nukes will be going off any second, because by golly! That's how I grew up as a kid back in the cold war days. We had Freedom then, and fireworks that where better than snakes, and everyone was a little crazy from falling off their bikes and hitting their heads with out helmets worn. Where kids where armed with BB guns, and playing "war" and "Cops and Robbers" and "Cowboys and Indians" was okay...
It was normal to think that we were the good guys, out to save the world, and from there we went straight to the
pussification of the Free American Man, (and woman)the under-educated, fantasy/reality blurry confusion, wild ass conspiracy theorys, and television that has 1500 channels, and not one ot them has anything even remotely interesting on.... But Hey! Act now and you can get all 1500 mind numbingly boring stupid shit on high definition plasma screen surround sound! Escape reality now! you know you want to!)
The people are all stupid, and apparently prefer that to any free individual thinking, because fuck man, just look at the bees......bbzzzzzzzzzzbbzzzzzzzbzzzzzzzz
Stupid as hell, but they all do their jobs, and do what they are told........ lets be insects now....fuk it.... |
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Barls Knarkley
User ID: 401789
11/21/2008 1:38 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
"Because water is one of the primary requirements for life, scientists said"
What an ignorant statement, science has come this far only to be so arrogant as to assume life cannot exist without a Human primary life component, water.
Whose to say non-earth life forms need water to fucking exist.
Science just keeps blowing its wad on its own face. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555427
It's less ignorant than you might think. If you lack knowledge of chemistry just handwaving and saying "but how do they know" isn't much use unless you're prepared to listen to why they believe that.
Water is weird, plain and simple. It's unlike almost any other compound. It's liquid over a much wider range than it should be due to strong hydrogen bonding, and it has excellent solvation qualities (things dissolve in it easily) because of its polarity and dielectric constant. It's also really, really plentiful in the universe.
The solvation aspect is one of the big reasons why chemical life may overwhelmingly rely on it. Life needs a liquid phase - solid phase chemistry is just too slow, and gaseous phase chemistry too disorganized. Liquid phase strikes just the right balance. It allows an incredible range of reactions to take place, to do so quickly, and in a controllable way. As far as rocky planets go, there is no substitute for water as this solvent. None.
Some people theorize that there may be an outside chance at an alternate biochemistry. Liquid ammonia at low temperatures may be able to serve a similar solvation role, with silicon replacing carbon as the organic backbone molecule. Others doubt that this is possible, due to the low rates of chemical reaction and the fragility of silicon bonds (notably including the formation of double or triple bonds) even at low temperatures.
You could speculate wildly about non-chemical life, such as Robert Forward's nuclear process based life living on the surface of neutron stars, but that's just (admittedly interesting) handwaving at present - no actual mechanism that would allow stable structures has ever been proposed to my knowledge.
So, no. Making that statement isn't "ignorance", it's a very educated best guess. If life exists elsewhere, then the probability it will be water and carbon based rather than anything more exotic is overwhelming.
I invite your reasoned rebuttal. |
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Ostria
User ID: 554724
11/21/2008 1:47 AM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Mars has a very weak atmosphere and some magnetosphere remnants. Scientist say that much of the Red Planet's atmosphere was blown away, by the solar wind.
But there are still some areas across Mars's southern hemisphere, where the magnetic fields arch over the surface like umbrellas, hundreds of km high.
What is needed, is a global magnetic field that will help grow and mentain a thick atmosphere, like the one it had some billion years ago. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 501511
11/21/2008 1:51 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
were all gona be moving there after the nukes start flying on this earth which god knows with the chasis in this world at the moment could be very soon.
ha mothafucka said chasis Quoting: Anonymous Coward 501511 |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 550749
11/21/2008 1:57 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
>>his news is quite significant. I never thought I'd hear this from NASA.
---
No its just that having ESA is keeping them honest-theyd rather be first |
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CraftZanie
User ID: 547480
11/21/2008 2:07 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
That's what happened to the honey bees. They went to Mars! |
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Whiskey Brother
User ID: 272605
11/21/2008 2:32 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Mars has a very weak atmosphere and some magnetosphere remnants. Scientist say that much of the Red Planet's atmosphere was blown away, by the solar wind.
But there are still some areas across Mars's southern hemisphere, where the magnetic fields arch over the surface like umbrellas, hundreds of km high.
What is needed, is a global magnetic field that will help grow and mentain a thick atmosphere, like the one it had some billion years ago. Quoting: Ostria
So like, how do you make planetary magnetic fields? When ya can't even get a decent TV station or even a product which doesn't break right when the warrenty runs out?
Shouldn't we be shooting for some intermediate step, like actually living Free from Control Freaks with severe learning disorders, or coming up with something better than Andy Griffith re-runs now in blu-ray hi-definition?
I mean, going straight from anolog signals to digital, or vica-versa, and then leaping to global magnetic fields, seems like too big a leap, and maybe we should slow down and research this more.
And does NASA have the neccesary funding to be making global field magnetic generators right now? Aren't they like, still trying to figure out how to make a shuttle that has a computer system slightly better than an Atari 2600, and pressure needle gauges form 1974, and just look at them curtains! Them things are way too retro disco and shit!
Not too mention that the power steering is making a horrible grinding sound, and isn't it about time we moved from rockets that drop tanks and debris all over the place, to George Jetson spaceships that fold up into a briefcase, or even a car that has something better than a fossil fuel system?
Or something like that.... |
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Ostria
User ID: 554724
11/21/2008 2:51 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
So like, how do you make planetary magnetic fields? When ya can't even get a decent TV station or even a product which doesn't break right when the warrenty runs out?
Shouldn't we be shooting for some intermediate step, like actually living Free from Control Freaks with severe learning disorders, or coming up with something better than Andy Griffith re-runs now in blu-ray hi-definition?
I mean, going straight from anolog signals to digital, or vica-versa, and then leaping to global magnetic fields, seems like too big a leap, and maybe we should slow down and research this more.
And does NASA have the neccesary funding to be making global field magnetic generators right now? Aren't they like, still trying to figure out how to make a shuttle that has a computer system slightly better than an Atari 2600, and pressure needle gauges form 1974, and just look at them curtains! Them things are way too retro disco and shit!
Not too mention that the power steering is making a horrible grinding sound, and isn't it about time we moved from rockets that drop tanks and debris all over the place, to George Jetson spaceships that fold up into a briefcase, or even a car that has something better than a fossil fuel system?
Or something like that.... Quoting: Whiskey Brother 272605
yes I think we need a new technology to do this. I guess we are a couple of aeons away from this. so if we are still here till then, we may be capable of achieving it.
My take is we will first try to build some totally artificial bioshperes in space, around earth or even on the moon that will be self-sufficient. Then we will see how we can terraform Mars and if it will be nessesary by then. |
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Chunk
User ID: 555818
11/21/2008 3:00 AM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
I finished Red and Green Mars. Haven't gotten to Blue yet.
Most GLPers might find the series boring because there are
no aliens or anything else all that mysterious, but I've
been fascinated at the author's take on how colonization
might happen and the consequences of sending humans to
Mars. Anyone who wants to see a very real potential
future for humans on Mars should read it.
. Quoting: DrPostman
Good stuff isn't it...Blue Mars gets more Sci Fi. Red Mars almost seems journalistic |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 539102
11/21/2008 3:05 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
were all gona be moving there after the nukes start flying on this earth which god knows with the chasis in this world at the moment could be very soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555448
i think they will only take people that have some much needed skill or ability. i think the rest of the talently challenged people will be left to die. |
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DrPostman 
Forum Moderator
User ID: 51197
11/21/2008 3:43 AM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Thanks for the links. I've seen some of them already but a few I haven't. Always good reading when it concerns Hoagland.
I have read many people who think of him as a fraud. I wouldn't argue with any of them but there is something that you cannot ignore. Hoagland has been set up as a "gatekeeper" for "alternative" Mars thinking. If Hoagland recognises it then millions all over the world take a look at it. If he does not recognise it then the ideal gets buried. That is a truth people interested in this subject have to live with. Quoting: Rota
Not in this day and age of the Internet. There are plenty
of people who offer theories and ideas about Mars that
aren't based on pareidolia.
I have always found it funny how Hoagland seemed to be handed certain jobs that seemed to give him credibility. Without really caring about it I just figured he was a member of the "tribe".....nothing new....nothing unusual. Quoting: Rota
Those "jobs that give him credibility" are nothing but
Hoagland lying about what really happened. Twice now
he has spoken at after-hours clubs at the UN and JPL
and claimed to have "addressed" the UN and JPL. Walter
Cronkite has no knowledge of him and the only real work
he's ever had was the curator of a museum in Springfield
Mass. He has hung around the space program in the background
so much that he feels comfortable making claims that aren't
true, such as helping with the Pioneer plaque.
But the bottom line is if you believe in something about Mars that is considered weird or not main stream then he is the only way available to get that ideal some PR. Quoting: Rota
How pathetic is that?
I think he is a shameless self promoter that will promote anything about Mars or Space that will bring in a buck but he could also promote things that are real or turn out to be real in the future. So he is a tool that might be able to be used to promote new theories even if he takes all the credit. Quoting: Rota
He's a tool alright, especially after all the drama surrounding
the Miami River archeological discovery.
"I don't have any idea."
-- Dick Cheney, on why he has such low approval ratings
Can't PM? Feel free to email me at
DrPostman(at)gmail.com
Want to know if a site is down, or if
the problem is at your end? Go to:
[link to downforeveryoneorjustme.com] |
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DrPostman
Forum Moderator
User ID: 51197
11/21/2008 3:47 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Good stuff isn't it...Blue Mars gets more Sci Fi. Red Mars almost seems journalistic Quoting: Chunk
I actually liked and really got into the drama of Green Mars.
That's the kind of stuff that might turn people off, but a
revolution on a planet that Earth is trying to control, and
what happened with the space elevator - pure drama. Loved
it!
Have you read his short story collection yet called The Martians?
"I don't have any idea."
-- Dick Cheney, on why he has such low approval ratings
Can't PM? Feel free to email me at
DrPostman(at)gmail.com
Want to know if a site is down, or if
the problem is at your end? Go to:
[link to downforeveryoneorjustme.com] |
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Chunk
User ID: 555818
11/21/2008 4:32 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
I actually liked and really got into the drama of Green Mars.
That's the kind of stuff that might turn people off, but a
revolution on a planet that Earth is trying to control, and
what happened with the space elevator - pure drama. Loved
it!
Have you read his short story collection yet called The Martians? Quoting: DrPostman
No I haven't, I've read one of the California books and again he seemed to hit imminent techonlogy on the head..a great sci fi writer..its been years since i read those i'll check him out again. |
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Bugsy Malone
User ID: 555127
11/21/2008 4:37 AM
 | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Great thread - most entertaing - thanks all including OP.
Well fancy that - I now know the reason why the Dow futures are up big time tonight. There is at least a half a dozen other reasons and we can add this one to the list.
Have fun all - Bugsy and Ted say "we hope u have a rage of a weekend. Meeeeowwww". |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 555877
11/21/2008 6:28 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Schwarzenegger was right!!! Quoting: Freethinker
yup |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 417517
11/21/2008 6:58 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
We need to pull our fingers out and start building some massive dome green house structures up there, it's shocking how shit we are at space travel we should have bases on every rock in this system. |
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Rota
User ID: 551142
11/21/2008 7:46 AM
| | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
Not in this day and age of the Internet. There are plenty
of people who offer theories and ideas about Mars that
aren't based on pareidolia. Quoting: DrPostman
I haven't run across too many of those people. In fact they all seem a little paranoid/weird to me. I figure the big problem is they are all alike. They fight with each other....steal from each other....accuse each other of misdeeds. Seems to me that pushing books and videos they want to sell is their main goal. I find that is the most important thing to them. Sometimes I even wonder if Mars really means anything to them except a buck. Hoagland isn't the only snake oil saleman around.
The sad thing is I believe they actually right about Mars but they don't know it yet.
. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 552971
11/21/2008 8:22 AM | | Re: VAST FROZEN WATER RESERVES DISCOVERED ON MARS | Quote |
from wikipedia:
Perchlorates are the salts derived from perchloric acid (HClO4). They occur both naturally and through manufacturing. They have been used as a medicine for more than 50 years to treat thyroid gland disorders. They are also used as an oxidizer in rocket fuel and explosives and can be found in airbags and fireworks. Both potassium perchlorate (KClO4) and ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) are used extensively within the pyrotechnics industry, and ammonium perchlorate is also a component of solid rocket fuel. Lithium perchlorate, which decomposes exothermically to give oxygen, is used in oxygen "candles" on spacecraft, submarines and in other esoteric situations where a reliable backup or supplementary oxygen supply is needed. Most perchlorate salts are soluble in water
does this mean that this perchlorate layer are remnants from the atmosphere |
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