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There are No "Victims"

 
Azure'
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12/29/2008 06:11 PM
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There are No "Victims"
One of the biggest obstacles to *Progress* on this planet is:
The belief in "victimhood", and hence too the belief in "victimisers".

The Truth of the matter is that there *are NO victims* and, by implication, *no* "victimisers".

When one stands Back and takes a look at the Bigger Picture this is self-evident.

It is the *belief in victimhood* which perpetuates strife and hardship and powerlessness on Earth.

YOU have a Choice:
1] Believe in "Victimhood"
2] Reject the idea of "Victimhood"

The fewer believers there are in "Victimhood", the greater, and more exponential, the Progress will be.

This "victim/victimiser" nonsense has gone on WAAAY too long on this planet... It is time for a Change, and it begins with YOU.

To those of you who believe in "punishment", those who believe in "revenge", those who believe in "an eye for an eye"... you are believing in the *Illusion* that is "Victimhood"! Why not decide on a Change???

If you rather 'turn the other cheek' then you are beginning to 'get it', you are beginning to break the cycle - to truly begin to Change your world.

'Resist not evil'... is one way of putting it; yet on the next level of consciosuness one realises that "evil" is part of the same Illusion.

Do not 'get me wrong', I am NOT advocating not standing up for one's rights. One's Rights are one's Brithright. No-one has the right to take them away from you, that is not a right. The difference becomes clear in *how one Perceives events* and how one *responds* OR *reacts*. Knee-jerk reactions are usually based on the same Illusion. Responding, on the other hand is the more Intelligent Choice and allows instead for the possibility of informed, benevolent and constructive Choice.

This also does not mean that it does not sadden me to see suffering and unpleasant things take place. It does not mean one has to become numb to the world.

Choosing to transcened the Illusion most often requires some effort and self-discipline and it all begins with *your thoughts* - this is where YOU can begin to Change it all, if you wish to. It is your Choice.

As I write this I am reminded of an excellent quote from the book Illusions:
"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly." ~ Richard Bach

So what is it that you Choose? (A question perhaps for self-consideration.)

Will you join me in making the most constructive Choice?

Azure'
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Liquid Reality

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12/29/2008 10:40 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
I'm with you. I've stopped believing I'm a victim entirely.

No one was ever doing anything to me, I was doing it to myself.

It's very freeing, actually.
Fools must learn from experience.
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 11:34 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
I'm with you. I've stopped believing I'm a victim entirely.

No one was ever doing anything to me, I was doing it to myself.

It's very freeing, actually.
 Quoting: Liquid Reality


Well-said - that is the crux of Illusion when applied to oneself. It works also in a collective way (and there are also many Collectives.)

It (Freedom from Victimhood Consciousness) is best applied to oneself because then one can See it in how others engage the world, then it also provides a far more Constructive Perspective/Framework when interpreting what one sees 'out there'.

The "Victimhood" mentality (thinking that *anyone* is actually 'a victim') results in nothing more than Games - no more constructive than a dog chasing it's tail (or is that, snake chasing it's tail?)

Azure'
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 11:35 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
you write all that stuff yourself azure??
Reality is BS

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12/30/2008 11:39 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
bumpThis is truth. Seperate yourself from your thoughts. You are not your thoughts, become the watcher.
iiicp
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12/30/2008 11:45 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
nice fluff.

Getting one's rights taken away is what we all define as "victimization". And it doesn't exist yet you admit it does?

Are you saying that we, in some cases, deserve these rights being taken away or did something to warrant being raped?

This post is full of intellectual contradictions, though it's appealing to the knee-jerk emotions of the new-agers.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 11:46 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
nice fluff.

Getting one's rights taken away is what we all define as "victimization". And it doesn't exist yet you admit it does?

Are you saying that we, in some cases, deserve these rights being taken away or did something to warrant being raped?

This post is full of intellectual contradictions, though it's appealing to the knee-jerk emotions of the new-agers.
 Quoting: iiicp 572398



you will be one of the firsts to go
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 11:47 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
you write all that stuff yourself azure??
 Quoting: whyidontknow


Yes. It's what I enjoy most about GLP so I decided to reciprocate.
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 11:47 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
The circle of dysfunction is Predator, Victim, Rescuer. If you are a co-dependent you spin around on the wheel playing each position--even if you think you are never a predator, you are.

Example: "I snort coke because she was unfaithful,"

He is a victim, she is a predator, and likely he will try to get her to "rescue" Him. He may start blaming her even more and feel a self rightious bitch slapping is what she deserves--he has moved to Predator Role, and then she is victim.

Co-dependancy is hard to escape. You often have to leave and risk being called "Predator" while the other says they are a victim--most of the time this is not reality, but faulty perception.

As soon as you think someone "made you do something" or "made you think something" or "done something to you" you have given your power away--made yourself a victim and them a predator. ALso guilt and shame feed into this. The predator is made to feel guilgy by a martyr victim, and then goes into rescue mode to appear to be the "Good guy".

It is exhausting and takes all your life energy to maintain. You will never live to your fullest and be what you were meant to be, as you will have no energy left for productive things in life. It is also a "closed system", which if you study closed systems, they are unable to percieve reality outside themselvs, so the dysfunction festers and breeds on itself---meaning, it only gets worse.

Congradulations if you broke out of the cycle. Very few do!
Reality is BS

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12/30/2008 11:48 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
you write all that stuff yourself azure??


Yes. It's what I enjoy most about GLP so I decided to reciprocate.
 Quoting: Azure'

There are more and more of us that are awakening to this. It's very exciting and fills me with hope.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 11:49 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Yes. It's what I enjoy most about GLP so I decided to reciprocate.
 Quoting: Azure'


i need some advice
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 11:51 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
nice fluff.

Getting one's rights taken away is what we all define as "victimization". And it doesn't exist yet you admit it does?

Are you saying that we, in some cases, deserve these rights being taken away or did something to warrant being raped?

This post is full of intellectual contradictions, though it's appealing to the knee-jerk emotions of the new-agers.



you will be one of the firsts to go
 Quoting: whyidontknow



hahaha. You are already gone.
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 11:51 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
nice fluff.

Getting one's rights taken away is what we all define as "victimization". And it doesn't exist yet you admit it does?

Are you saying that we, in some cases, deserve these rights being taken away or did something to warrant being raped?

This post is full of intellectual contradictions, though it's appealing to the knee-jerk emotions of the new-agers.
 Quoting: iiicp 572398


Thanks for your input.

Do you not understand Karma?

*Nobody* "deserves" *anything* that happens to them, but it still happens.

Azure'
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Canuck

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12/30/2008 11:58 AM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
This is one of the best threads I've read on this forum!

Thanks Azure'... we all need to be reminded of our personal responsibility......! We can either retain it .... or give it up to others.

Canuck

hf
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud.”
CARL JUNG IN 1919

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

Cree proverb:
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.

"Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view) consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy - animals."
-Milan Kundera, "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" (1984)
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:02 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Thanks for your input.

Do you not understand Karma?

*Nobody* "deserves" *anything* that happens to them, but it still happens.

Azure'
 Quoting: Azure'



I understand it all.

What it comes down to is what exactly is justice, and who enforces it?

If I am allowed to defend my birth rights, what exactly are they and who are you or I to claim to know what they are?

If I am allowed to defend myself, using "perfect" discernment, then I am God, a judge/jury/executioner.

Turning the other cheek is an admission you are not worthy of enacting justice. Therefore, there are NO instances when you can turn the other cheek and when you cannot... unless you claim to be omniscient.
.Ajax.

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12/30/2008 12:03 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Hi! Yup, you are pretty much right on there OP! Never underestimate how much being a victim is the norm, ya know? Humans have loved this game of suffering...giving away their lives/power and then feeling victimized when they struggle to get it back. Most often, fighting themselves (thinking they are fighting someone else) to get back, what was never really lost!?! It sure is interesting to observe. Best to stand in your own peace & integrity...be the fine example of self...eh? Thank you!
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:08 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
This is one of the best threads I've read on this forum!

Thanks Azure'... we all need to be reminded of our personal responsibility......! We can either retain it .... or give it up to others.

Canuck

hf
 Quoting: Canuck


I'm glad to see you have enjoyed being here.

Well-said about the personal responsibility.
It is all about the placement of one's Personal Power.

A retorical question - something one can ask onesself - and See in the world 'out there':

Where do 'you' place your Power?

I place mine Inside. This is where it orginated and this is from where it can best Serve; because it is from here that it can make the most Difference to that which is all around the Centre.

This is what society has deprogrammed everyone of (the Knowledge of Self and thus the Power of The Self.) In essence, it has taken everyone's Personal Power. Is Now the time to reclaim it? It's 'never too late'...

Azure'
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:10 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Here is a good description of dysfunctional vs healthy interaction,
22 February 2007
The Karpman Drama Triangle
Almost 40 years ago, therapist Stephen B. Karpman identified a pattern of interactions in alcoholic-codependent families, which he named the "Drama Triangle". The pattern involves two people, most of the time, but any number can play.

There are three roles in the Drama: Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor.

You can draw a triangle, and write Victim at one point, Rescuer at the next, and Persecutor at the third. The triangle works like this: people move between these roles, and go around and around and around the points of the triangle in a neverending drama of rescuing, persecution, and victimization.

First, the person who takes on the role of Victim shows signs of distress, or finds themselves in a desperate situation, or otherwise needs help. This can be quite a legitimate need! It doesn't have to be a pretense at all. There are plenty of real life situations in which people need help. But if the Victim is actually looking for something more than help, or something other than help, they may end up in Karpman games.

Next, a Rescuer appears. This is a person who may genuinely feel a desire to help the Victim - or they may have a compulsion to rescue people, or to fix situations. They may enjoy feeling powerful; and few things make a person feel as powerful as rescuing someone else. This can look benign when we are young; it is one of our culture's deepest fairytales - the broken-winged bird, healed by love; Beauty and the Beast; the Prince, rescuing the Damsel in Distress. [And they all lived happily ever after.] So it's easy enough - even approved! to be a Rescuer.

Again, this isn't necessarily a 'game' or a 'drama'. It all depends on what the people involved do with the situation, what their expectations are of one another, and how they behave with one another once the roles are in play.

If the Rescuer is genuinely into helping the Victim, they will give exactly the help that is needed. They won't become enmeshed with the Victim, although they may become friendly - there's a huge difference between friendship and enmeshment.

Most importantly, the Rescuer will have realistic expectations of the Victim. If, for instance, the Victim is a severe alcoholic having DTs, a healthy Rescuer will see to it that the DTs are treated, get the alcoholic some vitamin shots, and provide them access to resources for detox... but the Rescuer won't expect a miraculous turnaround, won't demand it, and won't become enraged when their personal 'script' for the alcoholic isn't followed.

There is no script. The Victim is free to be themselves. The help is given because it is right to give it. The Rescuer will certainly hope for change, even pray for it, but they know they cannot demand it.

By comparison, a Karpman Rescue always has a script, and it is rarely followed, so the Rescuer is disappointed in the outcome of their rescuing.

This is one way for the Persecutor role to come into play. It is usually taken on first by the Rescuer, because of anger at the Victim's not going along with the script the Rescuer has in his or her head.

Suddenly, instead of being supportive and helpful, the Rescuer becomes critical. Judgemental. Cold. Or angry. Furious. Blaming and raging.

Now two things can happen. The Rescuer can remain in the Persecutor role, with the Victim now Victimized by their former Rescuer! Some spousal abuse, and some child abuse, operates this way.

Or, the Victim can rare up on his or her hind legs and strike back [how dare you speak to me like that!!!]; in this case, the Victim usurps the role of Persecutor, and the Rescuer, after Persecuting, now moves into the role of Victim.

This is when it's possible to tell if the participants are hooked into the triangle. At this point, they will not leave. They will not leave. In fact, if leaving is suggested to them, they may become extremely offended at the suggestion!

Victim-Rescuer-Persecutor. It is possible to spend an entire marriage, an entire career, an entire LIFE, rotating around and around among these roles.

But there's another triangle, a healthy triangle, the Quinby triangle, which is the positive version of this, without the gameplaying and persecution.

In the Quinby Triangle, instead of Rescuing, a person Reaches Out. Instead of being a Victim, the person being reached out to is simply Vulnerable. And instead of Persecuting, both parties Persevere - they hang in and work together as long as it takes to get through whatever there is to get through. There may be limitations to what each of them can do - but that is very different from having a 'script'.

Think of Christopher and Dana Reeve, and you know what a Quinby interaction is like. Here's a graphic that shows both Karpman and Quinby Triangles: Karpman and Quinby

Wanting to be rescued isn't necessarily unhealthy. Wanting help when we need it, wanting to be lifted up when we are down? This is part of the good stuff that human interaction is supposed to provide.

But you must be aware - vulnerability, and the willingness to help the helpless, can attract good guys, but it can also attract Karpman gamesters, too. It's often hard to tell them apart, until you suddenly, unaccountably, find that you've become a target of rage.

posted by Stormchild at 22.2.07 s:
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:12 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
wonderful post - tyvm for sharing
Canuck

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12/30/2008 12:13 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Thanks for your input.

Do you not understand Karma?

*Nobody* "deserves" *anything* that happens to them, but it still happens.

Azure'



I understand it all.

What it comes down to is what exactly is justice, and who enforces it?

If I am allowed to defend my birth rights, what exactly are they and who are you or I to claim to know what they are?

If I am allowed to defend myself, using "perfect" discernment, then I am God, a judge/jury/executioner.

Turning the other cheek is an admission you are not worthy of enacting justice. Therefore, there are NO instances when you can turn the other cheek and when you cannot... unless you claim to be omniscient.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398


Dear AC,

It is you and those like you who keep human beings from becoming fully what they truly are.... Gods.

Perhaps you should look at what you categorize as "new age" thinking. It would seem that the old ways of thinking and belief are not serving us ....

Those who turn the other cheek are truly the evolved beings, because they know that whatever happens... they cannot be harmed or destroyed.

Canuck
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud.”
CARL JUNG IN 1919

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

Cree proverb:
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.

"Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view) consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy - animals."
-Milan Kundera, "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" (1984)
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:16 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
what about something truly horrible like infanticide..

did the infant ask for it or bring it upon themselves?
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:20 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
I understand it all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

Is that so?

What it comes down to is what exactly is justice, and who enforces it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

Have you ever considered that perhaps your very belief in "justice" could be a sticking point?

If I am allowed to defend my birth rights, what exactly are they and who are you or I to claim to know what they are?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

Your Birthright is equally that of ALL persons (and that includes ALL life forms.) Primarily, your No#1 Birthright is *Freedom*, and your along with it *it is not* your birthright to deprive anyone or anything thereof.

If I am allowed to defend my birth rights, what exactly are they and who are you or I to claim to know what they are?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

Is *Freedom* not self-evident?

If I am allowed to defend myself, using "perfect" discernment, then I am God, a judge/jury/executioner.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

Why do you believe you not 'God'?
Have you thought about it?
Perhaps it has something to do with your placement of personal power.
Issue is right there.

Turning the other cheek is an admission you are not worthy of enacting justice. Therefore, there are NO instances when you can turn the other cheek and when you cannot... unless you claim to be omniscient.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398

If you got to the place in the first place where you had a need to make that choice then ask yourself the question: What is it that you did "wrong" leading up to this? Responsibility is not about being a "victim" to the hand in the face.
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:21 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Hi! Yup, you are pretty much right on there OP! Never underestimate how much being a victim is the norm, ya know? Humans have loved this game of suffering...giving away their lives/power and then feeling victimized when they struggle to get it back. Most often, fighting themselves (thinking they are fighting someone else) to get back, what was never really lost!?! It sure is interesting to observe. Best to stand in your own peace & integrity...be the fine example of self...eh? Thank you!
 Quoting: .Ajax.


Thank *You*
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:22 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
wonderful post - tyvm for sharing
 Quoting: Nuclue


Thank You
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Canuck

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12/30/2008 12:29 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
what about something truly horrible like infanticide..

did the infant ask for it or bring it upon themselves?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 539200



ALL loss of life is horrible, are we not all living beings? You may laugh and make fun of this belief... but there are no accidents or coincidences or unplanned actions.

The above statement will only resound with you if you truly believe that we are spirit clothed in these human bodies... Once these bodies are no longer useful or not needed, they are discarded. We transition back into what we truly are... spirit.

If you can wrap yourself around the thought that nothing in this universe is wasted or lost, including human and even animal life then you will understand that before coming to this earth plane, everything is planned. To evolve spiritually we must learn how the interact with each other and our environment, we must learn not to cause damage to either, because the reality is that what I do to you, I do to myself.

How would we know good from bad or light from dark if we didn't have the opposit to compare it to??? Can you give me the answer to this question?
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud.”
CARL JUNG IN 1919

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

Cree proverb:
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.

"Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view) consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy - animals."
-Milan Kundera, "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" (1984)
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:32 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
If you got to the place in the first place where you had a need to make that choice then ask yourself the question: What is it that you did "wrong" leading up to this?
 Quoting: Azure'



Most likely you did something "right" to get to that place of suffering. Did Jesus do something "wrong"? Did he have bad karma?
How do you know that when your freedom is threatened, you aren't taking that same role on as a pawn of God's plan and you shouldn't defend yourself, like Jesus didn't?

Sorry, I just find your post arrogant and self-serving.
MercurialStorm

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12/30/2008 12:34 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
So if you get blown up by a terrorist or stabbed by a junkie, just remember to take it well because you're not a victim.

It's easy to say shit from the comfort of your own home but when you are in the real world, the truth is that there are victims.
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:35 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
what about something truly horrible like infanticide..

did the infant ask for it or bring it upon themselves?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 539200


Very unpleasant things tend to happen on this planet. It has to do with the Collective "Drama" (and all that goes along with it.) However, there is a Healing Force which has been here too, and it continues. If this were nt the case then there would be much more unpleasant things going on by this time. Many who choose to come to this planet (incarnation) and many who have been here for a long time are part of that Healing Force. Often they too will endure some of these unpleasant things. The important thing is: How one handles it. That makes far, far more difference than you might imagine and, indeed, it is the point of this thread; but it goes much further and deeper than only choosing not to be a "victim"... but this is the best Choice one can make to avert further such 'problems'...

Nothing happens without a reason. The important thing to understand is: that no-one "deserves" suffering.

Azure'
Life is All there Is. What are you doing in It? What have you done in It? What will you do in It? Eternally On...
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:38 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
nice fluff.

Getting one's rights taken away is what we all define as "victimization". And it doesn't exist yet you admit it does?

Are you saying that we, in some cases, deserve these rights being taken away or did something to warrant being raped?

This post is full of intellectual contradictions, though it's appealing to the knee-jerk emotions of the new-agers.
 Quoting: iiicp 572398

Thank you. This has been one of the more assinine threads I have ever read. Starting with the bullshit premise.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2008 12:39 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
....and no Woman would have writen that assinine dribble.
Azure' (OP)

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12/30/2008 12:39 PM
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Re: There are No "Victims"
Most likely you did something "right" to get to that place of suffering. Did Jesus do something "wrong"? Did he have bad karma?
How do you know that when your freedom is threatened, you aren't taking that same role on as a pawn of God's plan and you shouldn't defend yourself, like Jesus didn't?

Sorry, I just find your post arrogant and self-serving.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 572398


Note that I used the word 'wrong' in parentheses - and so-doing I was implying that the concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' are *subjective*. It is a matter of Perspective, do you see?

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