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The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?

 
buddha bloke
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10/19/2004 10:05 PM
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The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?
In his volume, "Masters of the World", Charroux writes:" The true history of civilization is forbidden. Powerful conspiracies try to allow only a distorted version to be expressed. Our social and religious history has been falsified for thousands of years, ever since the Egyptians, forgetting or ignoring the truths handed down to them by their ancestors, gave themselves the title of the ´first initiators and civilized people´. The Greeks also forgot to pay tribute to their Celtic and Egyptian teachers and presented their country as the cradle of mankind". Then came the Hebrews...that was the final blow.(Note:The Greeks and Egyptians even wrote that they existed during the time of Atlantis!)

The Roman Christian emperors and priests ordered the burning of the biggest library in known history at Alexandria, Egypt because it contained books about civilizations and religions that existed long before Genesis in the Bible. The 9 other ancient large libraries were also destroyed. The books about Atlantis and Mu by the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas were burned by the invading Spaniards who viewed such histories as a threat to their religious histories. Yet a few volumes were hidden away by scholars who feared the destruction of same; they have remained for today´s open minded researchers. THIS IS the "Ageless Wisdom".

LOST CONTINENT OF LUMANIA
A book written in the language of India, which includes two ancient maps showing the lost continent of LUMANIA, was sent to Dr. Ronald P. Anjard, by an Indian ancient historian, astronomer and author named Sampeth Lyengar. In addition, an ancient stone carved into the theorized shape of Lumania, was sent to Dr. Anjard by Ms. Enid M. Irwin, and this information was sent to Mind International headquarters on Maui. Anjard wrote about the Maskara continent (where the civilization of Lumania reportedly existed) in what is now the Indian Ocean... with parts stretching into Australia.

Indonesian islands are said to be the remaining mountain peaks of this sunken continent that existed even before Atlantis. In 1974, a United Nations diplomat investigating lost continents, Farida Iskiovet, told Mind International directors in Hawaii that she found out about a mysterious ruined pyramid in Indonesia from a prehistoric culture.

In 1977, a Mind International agent from Australia, Colin Amery, reported the discovery of mysterious ruins in the remote Australian wastelands: ´My research in recent months suggests that in caves in the desert of Western Australia, machinery and priceless artifacts dating back to the period of Lemuria have been stored. There are stories of temples hidden in rain forests." Amery added that he discovered a small temple over an underground temple, stretching down about 1,000 feet.

During the 1960´s many newspapers and magazines reported the discovery of strange metallic balls found in the Australian desert, of unknown origin. All attempts to open them with machines and weapons failed and the metal composition was unknown. Is there a relation?

Lumania was not the Pacific continent of Lemuria (also known as Mu, Pan, Mar, and Muror). Lumania appears to date earlier.

Lost in time...Lumania has left a lack of ruins scientists have found in the Indian Ocean... perhaps so ancient as to have disintegrated. All we have is Dr. Anjard´s maps and writings from ancient times and a scant few artifacts and the underground temple. Jane Roberts, a medium of the Edgar Cayce ilk, claims E.S.P. data on Lumania that we will describe below, though we have no way of proving what she said:

According to Roberts, ´The Lumanians were scientifically advanced far beyond 20th Century technology in America, and they lived in futuristic style underground cities. They formed energy fields around their cities to protect them from huge terrifying animals that over-ran Earth then (dinosaurs?), as well as savages.´ The Lumanians did not attempt to form an empire like Atlantis later did, but instead concentrated their population on Maskara with only a few underground cities on other continents. The Lumanians had no desire to contact or influence the masses of primitive savages over-running the world then.

The entrances to these underground cities were hidden in the backs of natural caves. The doors were translucent to allow people to see out yet nobody outside could see in. Underground tunnels connected the cities with high-speed monorails.

The HOPI INDIANS, the ancient Hawaiians, and the NAACALS of Burma all told of the lost continent. On Maui, hidden deep in the dense rain forests of the upper slope of Eke Crater, is ruins of a temple and sun dial from a lost civilization not in any history book about Hawaii. Numerous other mysterious pre-Hawaiian ruins were found in Maui jungles.

We interviewed Mrs. Hildra James, founder of Mama´s Fish House on Maui, descendant of Hawaiian royalty, about how she and her associates flew over ruins in a helicopter and witnessed same. Also, we interviewed the acclaimed "world´s leading authority" on Hawaiian history, Mrs. Inez Ashdown, who had a photo of Eke Crater ruins; also-Merriil Fankhauser, formerly of Xian International on Maui, explored many other ruins on Maui which he believed were from Lemuria, including some pear Kaupo and Wainapanapa.

The Lemurians worshipped the Sun God and named their empire after that concept.

LEMURIAN PARADISE
The literal translation of the word Maui is "SUN GOD." The famous crater on Maui, Haleakala, is translated "the House of the Sun." The Temple of the Sun was the pyramid center of the Empire of the Sun and the point in the greater scheme of the cosmos. The Sun King or (Emperor of the Sun) was the divine ruler of the Empire of the Sun. The City of the Sun was the capital city of planet Earth during the Golden Age of the Empire of the Sun and was known as Hamakulia. According to a map of Lemuria published in the Sunday edition of the LOS ANGELES TIMES, July 31, 1977, Hamakulia was in the vicinity of Maui. It also showed Mu stretching from off the coast of California to the region of Japan, and south through Easter Island and Tahiti.

According to Churchward, MU was about 5,000 miles long and 3,000 miles wide, a beautiful tropical paradise like the Garden of Eden. He claims there were 64 million people who died in the sinking, and that it dated back over 50,000 years. The Pacific Islands are the remaining mountain peaks of the lost continent.

Precise detailed maps of the lost continent of Mu and Atlantis were found on stone tablets from Pre-Inca Ica, Peru, by Dr. Javier Cabrera, engraved in stone and photographed by Robbert Charroux.

United Nations diplomat Farida Iskoviet, assistant to United Nations President Adam Malik, came to Maui in 1972 and researched Lemurian ruins and history and concluded that they were real.

One of Hawaii´s leading authorities on Lemurian research was Sgt. Williard Wannall from Army Intelligence in Oahu. He reported that ruins of a submerged Lemurian city was between Maui and Oahu. It was a Top Secret project in Naval Intelligence in 1972.

[link to www.geocities.com] link to www.godlikeproductions.com] alt='flower'>
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Did you ever see a Draconous being?
You do not what to see one alive.
buddha bloke (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Evidence For Its´ Existence
"This is probably the greatest discovery in World history", was stated by Maxine Asher, the co-director of a scientific expedition that found Atlantis at the bottom of the ocean, reported United Press International and major newspapers in the United States during the summer of 1973. UPI continued that "Maxine Asher said that scuba divers found data to prove the existence of the super-civilization which legend says sank beneath the sea thousands of years ago""The divers had found evidence of roads and large columns, some with concentric spiral motifs, in the exact place described by the Greek philosopher Plato".

"The group of some 70 scientists, teachers and adventurers was endorsed by Pepperdine University in Los Angeles, California."

The document "History of the Golden Ages" reveals over 30 ruins including pyramids, domes, paved roads, rectangular buildings, columns, canals and artifacts that have been found on the ocean bottoms from the Bahamas to the nearby coasts of Europe and Africa, referencing the vast size of the lost continent.

Dozens of historians and famous writers wrote about the Atlantis they believed existed, how the Myans and Aztecs had told their conquerors that they came from Atlantis and Mu, about ancient tablets photographed in Peru showing those two lost continents, Atlantis and Lemuria, and ancient maps clearly showing Atlantis.

Just some of the ruins so far found include:

- A pyramid explored by Dr Ray Brown on the sea floor off the Bahamas in 1970. Brown was accompanied by 4 divers who also found roads, domes, rectangular buildings, unidentified metallic instruments, and a statue holding a "mysterious" crystal containing miniature pyramids. The metal devices and crystals were taken to Florida for analysis at a university there. What was discovered was that the crystal amplified energy that passed through it.

- Ruins of roads and buildings found off Binini Island in the 1960´s by the photographed and published expeditions of Dr Mansan Valentine. Similar ruins were also photographed off Cay Sal in the Bahamas. Similar underwater ruins were found off Morocco and photographed 50 to 60 feet underwater.

- A huge 11 room pyramid found 10,000 feet under water in the mid Atlantic Ocean with a huge crystal top, as reported by Tony Benlk.

- A 1977 report of a huge pyramid found off Cay Sal in the Bahamas, photographed by Ari Marshall´s expedition, about 150 feet underwater. The pyramid was about 650 feet high. Mysteriously the surrounding water was lit by sparkling white water flowing out of the openings in the pyramid and surrounded by green water, instead of the black water everywhere else at that depth.

- A sunken city about 400 miles off Portugal found by Soviet expeditions led by Boris Asturua, with buildings made of extremely strong concrete and plastics. He said "the remains of streets suggests the use of monorails for transportation". He also brought up a statue.

- A marble acropolis underwater across five acres of fluted columns raised on pillars.

- Heinrich Schilemann, the man who found and excavated the famous ruins of Troy (which historians thought was only a legend), reportedly left a written account of his discovery of a bronze vase with a metal unknown to scientists who examined it, in the famous Priam Treasure. Inside it are glyphs in Phoenician stating that it was from King Chronos of Atlantis. Identical pottery was found in Tiajuanaco, Bolivia.

Many other examples of roads, buildings and columns are available, many of them made with materials not available in their areas.

Many ancient maps are also known to have Atlantis on them, including the ancient Greek ones studied by Christopher Columbus before he set sail for America.

Ancient writings from the Aztecs, Myans, Greeks, Egyptians, Spain, India, Tibet, and islands in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans all speak of ancient sunken continents and their connection to them.

Human footprints and shoe prints, a perfectly engineered cube, jewelry, a prehistoric animal with a hole in its skull that scientists admit only a bullet could make, a remnant of a screw, and other modern artifacts have been found in layered rock strata geologists admit formed on these objects MILLIONS of years ago. All of these discoveries were printed in public daily newspapers when they occurred, and left out of history books simply because historians could not explain them with THEIR theories.

[link to members.tripod.com]
Black (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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i went up to mt. shasta a few months ago, to lemurian hunt. there´s about a hundred years of folklore of people encountering lemurians hiding in their city in the mountain..

unfortunately i didn´t find any..i hear there women are very hot and friendly. i guess i wasn;t chosen. damn.



some rosicrucian literature says they moved there base up to some mountains in canada a couple decades ago.

read some david hatcher childress "lost cities of lemuria and the south pacific"

and his book on "vimanas" and some churchward books

the old indian epics have exact directions in some of their texts about flying ships and how to steer them and all. fascinating stuff and very old.

like fox mulder´s poster said

"i want to believe"

madame blavatsky also talked much of Lemuria

p.s. i did catch bigfoot up at mt. shasta. and he´s currently in my living room watching reruns of "everybody loves raymond´
buddha bloke (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Supposed Timeline for Lemuria

Both Blavatsky and Ruth Montgomery (The World Before) dated Lemuria to millions of years ago. Yet most sources define the Lemurian era as roughly 75,000 to 20,000 B.C., still prior to Atlantis. Some scholars believe the two civilizations co-existed for thousands of years. A handful of radical geologists (called Catastrophists) believe a continent called Pacifica existed within the last 100,000 years, and that its fairly rapid submersion caused mountains on the perimeter to rise and created hundreds of volcanoes called the Ring of Fire. Sea levels worldwide were disrupted as water rushed in to fill an enormous basin created by the sinking and caused oceans to drop hundreds of feet.

Lemuria´s appearance with a full-blown culture has spawned many interesting theories, including visits from extraterrestrials who introduced a new species of genetically engineered humans to replace their dim-witted ancestors. (This might explain the reference in Genesis to the ´sons of gods´ mating with the ´daughters of men.´) In any case there is no question humanity made a kind of great leap around 40,000 B.C. with advances in transportation, technology, art, and language. In Europe the Cro-Magnons, in the Pacific Lemurians.

What was Lemuria like?

Was it home to a gentle race of mystics and dreamers or an advanced society whose technology helped bring it down? According to Theosophy Lemurians had pliable, jelly-like bodies and slowly developed physicality. The first Lemurian subraces were apelike, egg-laying hermaphrodites who communicated by mental telepathy through a ´third eye.´ This atrophied after Lemuria´s fall and became the pineal gland still found in modern humans. These androgynous beings lived in perpetual torpor like the Lemurian Dreamers that the channeled entity Lazaris speaks about.

Finally, the ever-increasing density of matter helped usher in an era of sexual reproduction, and two distinct sexes emerged from one being. This marked the fall of man, and henceforth male and female would strive to reunite as one body through sexual intercourse.

Yet most sources claim Lemurians were much more like modern humans, living in an idyllic paradise, largely agrarian with lush forests and an abundance of flowers and fruit trees. Feminine principles of sharing, cooperation, and creativity produced a society virtually free of crime, strife, and warfare. Lemurians were vegetarians and lived in harmony with nature and other creatures, and they had a highly developed psychic and telepathic senses, which were applied in practical endeavors such as horticulture. People believed in ´mind over matter´ and were adept at manifestation and other ´reality creating´ techniques. This tradition survives, some claim, in the Polynesian concept of mana and various fire-walking ceremonies throughout the region.

Even traditional anthropologists are puzzled by a pre-Polynesian culture that stretched across most of the Pacific. Widely separated locales displayed astonishing similarities in village life, religious cults, myths, and foods such as coconuts, bananas, and taro. Over time each area, such as Polynesia, grew more diverse and distinctive and eventually lost contact with the other. The languages of this culture were thought to be Austronesian., which includes hundreds of related tongues still found today from Polynesia to distant Madagascar.

What happened to Lemuria?

Can an entire continent sink or vanish? That´s something most geologists say is impossible. Yet the event is widely supported by Pacific area mythology from Australia to Arizona. From Hopi legend: ´Down on the bottom of the seas lie all the proud cities, the flying patuwvotas, and the worldly treasures corrupted with evil . . ." Faced with disaster, some people hid inside the earth while others escaped by crossing the ocean on reed rafts, using the islands as stepping-stones. The same story of escape to dry land appears in the Popul Vu epic of the Quiche Maya and the Modoc tribe near Mt. Shasta among many others.

According to the Rosicrucians of San Jose, California, the disastrous cycle began with volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, and collapse of subterranean gas belts. Magnetic waves started moving around the globe, and Lemuria began to go under. Fortunately, there was time enough for small groups to salvage part of Lemuria´s precious wisdom, which was stored in crystals. Some colonists reached India and from there Mesopotamia and Egypt, while others migrated eastward on crude rafts to the Americas, forming the racial core of the earliest Indian tribes. In fact, California was home to history´s oldest people: pure Lemurians who later became the California Indians. That would explain why America´s oldest human artifacts were found on Santa Rosa Island off Santa Barbara, dated around 25,000 B.C. The same time Lemuria may have slipped beneath the waves.



-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------


Gordon Michael Scallion
According to Gordon-Michael Scallion - the Lemurians were like thought projections - not physically solid. It made them higher in frequency and closer to the Creator´s energy vibration level.

Their souls came to Earth to experience the physical vibration. They were about nine feet tall. Their skin had an aqua cast changing from blue to green in conjunction with two seasonal cycles each year. Their faces were elongated, and oval. Their eyes were large with lids running vertically. The texture of their skin was slightly scaly. They breathed through their skin, not lungs. The temperature of the planet, the atmosphere, the light and the orbits of the other planets were much different then. The first Lemurians were androgynous - neither male nor female.

The Lemurian experience began with the projection of 144 soul groups - representing the projection of 33 million souls. Some of the souls came from the ´Red Planet´. Some of the souls came from the stars - Pleiades and Sirius - and projected into physical form on Earth.

Some groups chose water, some the plant kingdom, the mineral kingdom, or the animal kingdom. The greater experiments were with the animal kingdom as this realm allowed for longer life spans and greater mobility. The Earth had interesting species at that time which included giants and elves.

The souls from Lemuria eventually went on to become the Atlanteans.

[Metaphors - reality is 12 around one. Taken to a higher harmonic we have 12 X 12 =144. The Red Planet - Red=color of the root chakra or physical plane. Mars is called the Red planet therefore many believe they existed on Mars. The blue and green are the colors of blueprint and alchemy - experience of emotion through the heart chakra - the seat of the soul - we are here to experience emotions and return to balance - when we return to the level of the Lemurians]

[link to www.crystalinks.com]
buddha bloke (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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the channeled entity seth talks about how the lumanians could communicate and form matter using sounds and tones.. he also speaks of a race of pure spirit entitys that came before and molded and influenced the lumanians.. and the reason he gave for the lumanians dying off is that they were unable to confront violence..they evolved so perfectly into an ultra-pacifist downfall.. also that cro magons were influenced by the tools the found at entrances to their underground cities in the caves..

LOL black stoner..
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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very fascinating
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Where´s all the supposed pictures?
Black (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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tongue and cheek aside BB, i am absolutely somewhat maybe obsessed by this stuff.

when i die, all i ask for is a quick fly on the wall scenario of how history really went down...i think there is some serious holes in our ancient past that don´t want to be looked at.

tex arcana is the man to talk too about ´forbidden archaeology though"

where is he????

tex ?? you are being called out?
trista (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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The Atlanteans´ downfall was an overabundance of masculine influence. It our task to blend the two: mind/body, masculine/feminine. Goddess energy is/has been arriving to help.

I thought you might appreciate this:

Prophecies of the Q´ero Incan Shamans

The light of idealism gleamed in his eyes as Dr. Alberto Villoldo described how an earthquake in 1949 underneath a monastery near Cuzco, Peru, had rent the ground asunder, exposing an ancient Incan temple of gold. This fulfilled a sign that the prophecies of Mosoq, the "time to come," were now to be shared with the modern world.

Dr. Villoldo, a psychologist and medicinal anthropologist, has lived among and trained with the Q´ero shamans and has played a key role in bringing their ritual and prophecy to the awareness of the modern world.

The Q´ero are the last of the Incas -- a tribe of 600 who sought refuge at altitudes above 14,000 feet in order to escape the conquering conquistadors.

For 500 years the Q´ero elders have preserved a sacred prophecy of a great change, or "pachacuti," in which the world would be turned right-side-up, harmony and order would be restored, and chaos and disorder ended.

The Q´ero had lived in their villages high in the Andes in virtual solitude from the world until their "discovery" in 1949.

In that year, Oscar Nunez del Prado, an anthropologist, was at a festival in Paucartambo, in southern Peru, when he met two Indians speaking fluent Quecha, the language of the Incas. The first Western expedition to the Q´ero villages then occurred in 1955.

Four years later, at the annual Feast of The Return of the Pleiades taking place in the Andes, the gathering of 70,000 pilgrims from South America were awed, and the crowd parted to let the Q´ero, unannounced and wearing the Incan emblem of the sun, make their way forward to the mountain top to make known that the time of the prophecies was at hand. They were welcomed by theassembly and were told, "We´ve been waiting for you for 500 years."

Recently, Q´ero elders journeyed to North America in fulfillment of their prophecies.

In November 1996, a small group of Q´ero, including the tribal leader and the head shaman, visited several cities in the US, including New York, where they performed a private ceremony at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine.

The shamanic ritual had not been performed for 500 years. But in thevery home of those who symbolized the former conquerors of their Incan ancestors they shared their ritual and knowledge, not only with interested Westerners who were learning their ways, but also with the Dean of the great cathedral, thereby symbolically and spiritually linking the two continents of North and South America.

According to ancient prophecy, this is the time of the great gathering called the "mastay" and reintegration of the peoples of the four directions.

The Q´ero are releasing their teachings to the West, in preparation for the day the Eagle of the North and the Condor of the South (the Americas) fly together again.


They believe that "munay,"
love and compassion,
will be the guiding force of this great
gathering of the peoples.
The new caretakers of the Earth will come from the West, and those that have made the greatest impact on Mother Earth now have the moral responsibility to remake their relationship with Her, after remaking themselves," said Don Antonio Morales, a master Q´ero shaman.
The prophecy holds that North America will supply the physical strength, or body; Europe will supply the mental aspect, or head; and the heart will be supplied by South America.

When the Spanish conquered the Incas 500 years ago, the last pachacuti, or great change, occurred.

The Q´ero have been waiting ever since for the next pachacuti, when order would emerge out of chaos.

For the past five centuries they preserved their s acred knowledge, and finally, in recent years, the signs were fulfilled that the great time of change was at hand: the high mountain lagoons have dried, the condor is nearly extinct and the discovery of the Golden Temple has occurred, following the earthquake in 1949 which represented the wrath of the sun.

The prophecies are optimistic. They refer to the end of time as we know it -- the death of a way of thinking and a way of being, the end of a way of relating to nature and to the earth.

In the coming years, the Incas expect us to emerge into a golden age, a golden millennium of peace.

The prophecies also speak of tumultuous changes happening in the earth, and in our psyche, redefining our relationships and spirituality.

The next pachacuti, or great change, has already begun, and it promises the emergence of a new human after this period of turmoil.

The chaos and upheaval characteristic of this period will last another four years, according to the Q´ero.

The paradigm of European civilization will continue to collapse, and the way of the Earth people will return. Even more importantly, the shamanic elders speak about a tear in the fabric of time itself.

This presents an opportunity for us to describe ourselves not as who we have been in the past but as who we are becoming.

Pachacuti also refers to a great Incan leader who lived in the late 1300s.

He is said to have built Machu Picchu and was the architect of an empire the size of the US.

For the Incas, Pachacuti is a spiritual prototype -- a Master, a luminous one who stepped outside of time.

He was a messiah, but not in the Christian sense of the only son of God, beyond the reach of humanity.

Rather he is viewed as a symbol and promise of who we all might become.

He embodies the essence of the prophecies of the pachacuti, as Pacha means "earth" or "time," and cuti means "to set things right." His name also means "transformer of the earth."

The prophecies of the pachacuti are known throughout the Andes. There are those who believe the prophecies refer to the return of the leader Pachacuti to defeat those who took the Incas´ land.

But according to Dr. Villoldo, the return of Pachacuti is taking place on the collective level. "It´s not the return of a single individual who embodies what we´re becoming, but a process of emergence available to all peoples."

The Q´ero have served as the caretakers of the rites and prophecies of their Inca ancestors.

The prophecies are of no use unless one has the keys, the rites of passage.

The Star Rites, or "Mosoq Karpay" (The Rites of the Time to Come), are crucial to the practical growth described in the prophecies.

Following the "despachos" (ritualistic offerings of mesa, or medicine bundles) at the ceremony in New York City, the shamans administered the Mosoq Karpay to the individuals present, transmitting the energies originating with the ancestors of their lineage.

The transmission of the Mosoq Karpay is the ceremony representing the end of one´s relationship to time.

It is a process of the heart.

This process of Becoming is considered more important than the prophecies themselves.

The Karpay (rites) plant the seed of knowledge, the seed of Pachacuti, in the luminous body of the recipient.

It is up to each person to water and tend the seed so that it can grow and blossom.

The rites are a transmission of potential; one must then make oneself available to destiny.

The Karpays connect the person to an ancient lineage of knowledge and power that cannot be accessed by the individual. It can only be summoned by a tribe.

Ultimately, this power can provide the impetus for one to leap into the body of an Inca, a Luminous One. That person is connected directly to the stars, the Incan Sun of cosmology.

The Q´ero believe that the doorways between the worlds are opening again.

Holes in time that we can step through and beyond, where we can explore our human capabilities. Regaining our luminous nature is a possibility today for all who dare to take the leap.

The Andean shamans say,
"Follow your own footsteps.
Learn from the rivers,
the trees and the rocks.
Honor the Christ,
the Buddha,
your brothers and sisters.
Honor the Earth Mother and the Great Spirit.
Honor yourself and all of creation."

"Look with the eyes of your soul and engage the essential,"
is the teaching of the Q´ero.

Tex and Wayha (amazing knowledge). I´ll try and get ´em over to this thread.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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bump for a gnew day
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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bump for interest
indigoblue (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Hi folk´s excellant reading.Please continue,love reading this kinda stuff.Ive looked into a lot of the thing´s mentioned, seen some of the picture´s of sunken pyramid´s and different building´s,road´s etc.Amazing there is almost nothing in the history book´s about a lot of this! Thank´s indigo.
Danbonesnli (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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hi BB
hows Trix?
this is what the adventures I mentioned before led me to...


Deganaweda



There once came from the North Country, to what is now the upper western portion of New York State, a young man of Huron birth. He was called Deganaweda. Even as a child he talked of a peaceful way of existence and of harmony among the tribes. He spoke of the importance of the heart and called for an end to war- like ways and sacrifices of blood. But he found only deaf ears amongst his own Huron people, for they were war-like and not given to the ways of peace.

Our story begins when Deganaweda began a pilgrimage that would eventually bring his teachings to the five tribes of the Haudenosaunee and later, six when they were joined by the Seneca peoples. He helped them create a confederation of tribes, under a form of self-ruling government, in which there would be no royalty, no tyranny, no need for war. This unification of the tribes would later be referred to as the Great Iroquois Confederacy. Which would include the Mohawk, Onandaga, Tuscarora, Cayuga and Oneida people, who would later be joined by the Seneca and the Mohican. The Mohicans would later be all but wiped out by the Huron’s, leaving the Confederacy composed of six nations as it is described in our history books. In the confederacy Daganaweda´s words were welcomed with enthusiasm and discussed around the council fires of the elders. During his pilgrimage Deganaweda met Hiawatha. Hiawatha, it is said, lived as a hermit deep within the forest. He lived alone, holding a great bitterness in his heart. He grieved over the slaughter of his family by the bloodthirsty Onadaga chief. It is said that Hiawatha had even taken to cannibalism. Deganaweda was challenged by a Grandmother to share his teachings with Hiawatha. She told him that if he could convince the angry Hiawatha, the beast of the woods, to walk in peace and harmony, then perhaps there was something to this wisdom. If he succeeded in changing the heart of this beast, then all the tribes would surely listen to him.

Deganaweda met with Hiawatha and spoke with him from his heart, for he was filled with the Great Spirit and had no fear. This meeting with Deganaweda caused a transition within Hiawatha’s being. They became inseparable, and from the wisdom taught to him by Deganaweda, Hiawatha became a renewed human being. A great friendship grew between the two, and Hiawatha became Daganaweda’s chief disciple. It is said that Deganaweda suffered from a speech impediment; he had stuttered since childhood. For this reason, Hiawatha became known as the chief spokesperson for Daganaweda’s Great Peace-- the Kia ëneri Kowa.

Both Deganaweda and Hiawatha taught that the human race was one great family. They taught of love and unity, with reverence for the Creator of all mankind and the sacredness and honour of all life. The way of the Great Peace was established. It was a great plan for social order that cantered its strength around the family fire. They taught of the inner balance of male and female within the self and in all relationships, the importance of the Mother/Father Principle. This teaching was to spread through the many single-family firesides. In the Great Peace it was taught that from these single families would come the basis of authority, leadership and the strength of the people. A natural order of social living was encouraged that allowed for the spiritual expression of all individuals. This concept was intrinsic to the integrity of their society and the establishment of the Long Houses that exist to this day.

In the way of the Great Peace, women are the keepers of the family lineage and as the bearers of life, they teach the knowledge of harmony and balance within the family. The tribe is the extended family, and neighbouring tribes should be considered relatives who are necessary for a healthy genetic evolution, an extended family, if you will. The balance within the whole of a society originates with the individual. The balance of male/female within the individual expands to the relationship between man and woman, and then into relationship with their offspring. This then expands into the extended family. All women are mothers to all the children, as are all men their fathers. The tribe was a living ecosystem for human consciousness, a living heart.

Women had equal status within the tribal council. They formed the Council of Grandmothers that looked out for the survival of the family structure above all things, for without the family structure, the people could not continue. No major decision that would affect the tribe as a whole was ever made by one individual of either gender, or any singular council; all councils were accountable to the Council of Grandmothers. Thus, they had devised a matriarchal system whereby no structure of dictatorship could arise and seize power from the people themselves. There simply was no position that allowed for the rise of a tyrant within their society.

The teachings of the Great Peace likened all war to quarrelling amongst children. Spiritual teachings were intermingled with the teaching of balance in the social order. In this culture there was no separation between living an abundant, full life and the expression of spiritual practice and beliefs because social laws were created out of an evolved spiritual understanding of human nature. In this manner, human beings learned to live in harmony with nature, thus they dwelt in a state of harmony within themselves. For nature was the kingdom with which humankind shared their dream. Mankind and Womankind were seen as spirit alive in the flesh. There was One Creator, One Father. There was one Mother. From this union came forth all their children--the human race.

So powerful were these teachings that the tribes of the Algonquin peoples formed the Iroquois Confederacy. It is from this Confederacy that much of the Constitution of the United States and the Declaration of Independence came. It is from the doctrine of life expressed by the Iroquois Confederacy by which the invading white Europeans forged the foundations of the American constitution, the basis of all Western Democracy

The Great Prophet, the Peacemaker would spend many seasons with the Haudenosaunee people they who would later be known as the Iroquois Confederacy establishing the ways of the Great Peace. All things must change and the Peacemaker would not be amongst the people forever. He heard the call to move on along his journey but before he would go he would deliver his final message to the people. It was time for him to fulfil his agreement here that he had long ago made with Creator. The people were very saddened by the announcement of his departure from them.

He met with the People one last time upon the shores of the Bay of Quinte, near what is now Lake Ontario. All the tribes were asked to send representatives to participate in a great ceremony to show their integrity and their commitment to the Great Peace. At this ceremony it is said that the people who represented each tribe of the confederacy buried their weapons of war into a huge pit over which they planted an evergreen tree.

. This tree represented the Tree of Life. Its branches reached to the heavens, to the Father. The tree and its roots represented the five tribes of the Iroquois Confederacy. The tree would grow, and send its roots deep into the earth to draw its nourishment and strength from the Mother, as did the people. The tree of life was planted upon an island in the lake, which was mostly white granite. The White granite represented, as did the white shells of the wampum belt a blanket of purity, the Mothers most pure mind. Some say that this tree is still alive today.

Wrapped within her robe of purity and wisdom, the Mother protects that original dream and wishes of those who participated in this great ceremony. Deganaweda spoke to them of Three Great Double Ideals, upon which they could build their foundation of self-government:

1. Ne Skin. Purity of the mind and of the body are tied together through the experience of the flesh. It is called the Human Drama, which is our dance through this life. Harmony between groups of people, for all of our human existence is realized through mastering the experience of relationships between each other. Inner harmony and peace, and the true union with creator, the source of all life is realized through maintaining of the balance of the spirit, while it is alive in the flesh.

Our purpose along our path is the expression of divine love of the Creator and the divine Mother through our actions, and emotions given and received through our expression of that divine love. For all has been given to us, without question, that we might reflect that which we receive from Creator and the divine Mother which is unconditional love.

2. Ne Gaiihwijo. Righteousness in deeds, action, as well as our thought should be the premise for all conduct. Our action is the expression of our true thought. Our actions often times speak louder than our words, for it is through action the inner self, the true state of being is expressed.

When we maintain a state of most pure mind, we deal with life’s events with open heart. Thus we are acting as the expression of the Creator. In this manner we maintain a justice and equality in dealing with human rights, in integrity of spirit. The superior quality within all beings is the expression of Creator who always speaks through the human heart.

Remember always it in the heart of a thing that its spirit can be found, and within its spirit is the very essence of the Creator. Creator’s deeds being from the heart are always righteous and Sacred. Our actions thus applied are filled with the power of that which is Sacred. The state of Sacred, by its own decree is the state of most pure mind. Although often silent, and sometimes soft in its action this path is for us never without power. Consider this truth, is not the Creator realized within all things? What thing exists that is not by the decree of the Creator?

3. Ne Gashedenza. It is good to maintain within your society a force that councils a skilled power for the self- defence of the people. This force must always be tempered by employing the guidance of your spiritual understandings of the higher reason of the mind. All actions taken must be of righteous intent. All things that can be called righteous are the results of the balance between the physical and the spiritual, there are no exceptions.

Therefore, when differences arise, as they will, the councils between your peoples must always be held with both the spiritual leaders and the military leaders present. The views of these councils should then be presented to the Sachems, who are your spiritual elders. They in turn must answer always to the Council of Grandmothers. The council of Grandmothers represents the social order of the people. In your societies all relationships are born from the foundation of the family fire--Mother, Father, and their children. Brother, sister, nephew, niece.

This structure is of the Mothers own design and purpose, and will reach out through your society like the roots of a great tree, seeking its strength and nourishment from the Divine Mother herself. Without the purposeful maintaining of the family fire your social order would quickly fall into disorder and decay. You are all extensions of this family fire, which is your strength when the times of change and calamity overcome you. Standing together you have the strength to withstand the storms that will come. Standing separately, without order you fall easy prey to the forces darkness, which are born of fear out of chaos, and as a people you would vanish like leaves before the wind.

We are all, in the end, brothers and sisters of one family, the children of one Mother and one Father. The balance of the male and female must be maintained within your relationships. It represents the balance of the Mother and the Father in the very process of creation, from which all of life is manifest.

In this way the Great Peace shall be established. In this way it shall be a living dream of the people that shall be handed down from Mother to Daughter, and as the bearers of life they shall pass it from Father to Son. And this peace which is born of the heart, and the people who live through this heart shall be forever. For they shall be in rhythm with the heart beat of the Divine Mother, which never ceases.

He told them that they had done well living in accordance with the Great Peace. He told them they would know much abundance, and they would be happy for a while. However, he also told them they would have great trials in the days ahead of them. He told them that a time was coming in which many of them could start to forget the principles of the Great Peace. A time was coming when the way of the serpent would rise from seeming sleep upon the land.

If the ways of the heart were forgotten and the people took to their old ways of warring amongst each other dark days would come as a result. He foretold that if the Serpents were awakened there would be a time of great trials and much suffering. In the darkness of this time they would come to mistrust themselves as well as their leaders and they would doubt even the very principles of the Great Peace.

Daganaweda told the people that he saw that during this time of the return of the serpent energy, that a White Serpent would come into their land. For a time, it would intermingle with the people. It would be accepted by the Indian people, and they would come to regard the Serpent as a friend and a brother. This Serpent would grow and be nurtured by the people and over time the Serpent would become powerful. As it grew although outwardly friendly towards the people the ultimately become obsessed with having more and more power.

This Serpent would have an insatiable appetite for power. It would seem that there would never be enough to satisfy this Serpent. It would reach out a giant claw and attempt to choke the life force from the People. If they did not succumb to the twisted will of the Serpent, which would grow more and more delirious with its quest for knowledge and power. The Serpent would grow mad and think that it could own the very Earth itself.

In its desire for more and more power, it would eventually attempt to drive off and even kill the very people who had befriended it. It would threaten to completely destroy them, and any other People that dared defy its will. Many would become addicted to the seemingly easy way of life that the Serpent would offer them, and through gradual corruption of the spirit they would fall under the power of this Serpent. The Serpents power lay in its ability manipulate the people by creating fear, and self doubt in the true spiritual path.

The Serpent was a master of illusion, and could even fool itself for a time into believing that it was liken the people itself. That it was no longer a Serpent. But while it talked of love, and a new way of life for the people it would be devouring the Earth itself. Even the beast of the forest and the great seas would flee in terror when it showed it face amongst them.

However, there would be People who would who would continues to live in the way of the Great Peace. They would see the Serpent for what it was. They would not give into fear and illusion. Although small in number they would somehow survive, the times that were coming. Many however would choose to leave rather then endure the years of struggle and hardship that would come to this land. It would be very strange times. A great struggle would develop between these few people who still held to the ways of the Great Peace and the Serpent.

There would be much contest and long suffering by the People, as the ways of the Serpent would have slowly corrupted many of them from the inside, separating them from the power of the great spirit that moved within them. The ways of the Serpent would separate them from each other, mother from child, child from grandparent. The family fire would be almost non-existent in times that were coming. If the family fire was ever allowed to be broken, if brother took to warfare against his brother it would it would only be a matter of time before all was lost. A great despair would fall upon the People and the land. Since the People were the land it would be that in time event the land would start to die.

With the Great Peace broken the once proud People of the Long House would become weary from the endless torment of the soul that would never seem to end. Daganaweda told them if the peace was broken they would become as few in number as leaves on the trees in winter, that some tribes would have vanished from the face of the Earth entirely they would be as dust in the wind. As the seasons continued, many would forget their ways entirely, and the Great Peace would appear as a myth of a distant long ago past. He told them as a result they would endure spiritual pain that would seem to be endless. He saw the people falling upon the ground like turtles on their backs. They would be as helpless as children fighting this Serpent. Then one day a Great Red Serpent would appear there would develop a great battle between the two. So great that the whole Earth would appear to shake. This shaking would occur three times.

The battle between the Serpents would be unending, and after awhile the White Serpent would appear at one point to accept defeat by the Red Serpent, but only momentarily. This was only because the White Serpent was stunned by the sudden blow of the Red Serpent´s strange power and rage. For the Red Serpent would have grown quickly and mysteriously to great size. And this Serpent would have strange powers that would be unfamiliar to the White Serpent as if they came from another world.

With the coming of this Red Serpent even greater confusion, would befall the land. The White Serpent would let loose of its hold on the People in an attempt to fight off the assaults of the intruder. All of its attention would go to battling the Red Serpent. Some of the people would manage to run away to the hilly country towards the West, which would be away from the Serpent´s grasp. Hidden in the hilly country their wounds would begin to slowly heal and they would seek once more a peaceful way of life and begin to return to divine order seeking harmony with the ways of the Mother Earth.

Some would begin to remember once again the old ways. They would begin to re-establish the principles of the Great Peace among themselves. People would come to them from all over, not just the Haudensaunee, but people from all nations from the four directions, from the beginning times. They would be called to gather together in the hilly country to heal from the war and terror. Here they would renew their original bonds of friendship and brotherhood, as it was during the Great Peace.

They would, at first be, small in numbers and would choose to remain neutral in the fighting that would ensue between the Great Serpents. They would slowly begin to awaken, as if from a bad dream or sickness. They would come to own themselves once again and through their renewed connection to the spiritual powers of the Earth they would grow stronger in their understanding of their dormant wisdom.

The People living close to the Earth would learn to become strong in their hearts. In this way they would become free from the fear that would be like a great plague upon the land. From this place in the hilly country their lookouts would be watching the Serpent´s battle in the distance. The Serpents warring would never seem to end, for the way of Serpent energy to renew itself is through killing and war. The Serpent would create fear in the hearts of the People who would become lost and be unable to connect to the source of their creation. From their fear these Serpents would draw their energy. For the Serpent would have no energy of its own. From their place in the hilly country, the People would hear and see the battle raging between the Serpents which would become so violent at times that the mountains would begin to crack open, Fire would spew from their mouths, for the Serpents would learn to use the lightning energy and they would even grow wings as they carried their wars even unto the heavens. It is then that the rivers would begin to boil, and the fishes would turn up on their bellies. There would be great flooding and great drought. Some of the great rivers would flow upstream in an unnatural manner. The weather would become erratic and nothing would grow as it once did. It would seem as if the Earth itself was lost in confusion and sickness. In those areas where the greatest of fighting took place there would be no leaves left upon the trees, and the grasses would burn up as great fires fell from the sky. Strange bugs would appear in the sky and coming from the ground. They would be like beetles, and they would crawl along the ground and attack both the Serpents and the people. Everywhere there would be death. The land would appear as if the whole of the Earth was dying. Everywhere the Earth and all her life forms would become sickened from the stench of death and destruction.

Then there would come across the land a great heat. It would swell from the Mothers belly and move across the land in great clouds of fire. It would appear as if the bowels of the Earth were opening and spilling forth this great fire everywhere. This heat would last a long time, so long that it would cause the stench from all the death to become intolerable. Even the Serpents who would continue to battle for they loved war would themselves begin to sicken from the stench of death. Then one day a warrior who was standing lookout from the hilly country watching the Serpents battle, would see from his lookout post the Red Serpent reach around the neck of the White Serpent and pull from him a feather as he tore open his throat. This feather would be carried by the wind to the South. Here it would find its way to a Great Black Serpent that would have appeared from some mysterious place where it had been hiding in the darkness. It would have been awakened from all the commotion and warring in the North. The Black Serpent, upon studying the white feather, would be astounded, as the hair would begin to dance upon the currents of the wind as it turned itself into a white bird and then into a white-skinned woman.

This white-skinned woman would have power and wisdom. She would be skilled in the ancient arts of the People, and she would speak to him in their ancient language, which he understood. She would tell him stories as she danced upon the wind shape shift before his eyes. She would tell the Black Serpent stories of great sickness that was upon the land and in the hearts of the People. Stories of death and horror going on in the North. These things he would know somehow to be true, but again he would have been asleep deep within the belly of the Earth for a long time.

He would ask her to tell him the stories once again, for it would be unbelievable to him that such things could be occurring upon this Earth. Then, when the woman was through with her tales, he would ever so gently place her down upon a rock, with great love and respect for her purity of spirit and her personal powers.

He would then turn to the North and let loose a great roar, filling the winds with his furry over the horrors he had heard. The winds and the sound of the great roar they carried would be felt over the whole of the Earth. It would rise up from the belly of the Earth, and even be heard in the heavens. With great speed the Black Serpent would then head towards the North to find the other two.

The two Serpents would already be weary from the firestorms, and the stench of death. They would be sickened to the point that they would weak and exhausted. They would rise in horror and shock at the sudden appearance of the Black Serpent, which would seem to come from nowhere. They would recognize him but not believe his appearance possible.

The Black Serpent would attack the Red and White Serpents with a great vengeance, and he would defeat the Red Serpent entirely. Then he would stand upon the chest of the White Serpent, letting out a horrible and boastful roar as he tore him into two pieces. The battle would be short; it would not be too long before the Black Serpent would begin to look for yet another Serpent to conquer, filled with the energy of war and killing. He would have taken on the evil of both serpents and become a power of darkness that defies description. It would appear that he intended to devour the whole of the Earth, even the heavens in his furry.

The Great Black Serpent would look in all the directions for a formidable foe. When he turned towards the direction of the hilly country, he would see the People standing noble and erect, with their arms open, having fearless hearts, facing the winds of change. He would know that this was not where his fight was to be found; he would turn and look elsewhere. For a time the whole of the world would be in darkness. Great clouds will have formed from the battle and the spewing of smoke from the Mother belly. It would be as if time itself had stopped.

The Black Serpent would then turn towards a sound coming from the heavens and, for a moment become blinded by a great and mysterious light that would appear from the heavens. This light would be many, many times brighter than the Sun. This Great Light would be travelling east, coming from the West, over the great waters. It would appear in the skies for the passing of twelve of our days. When it arrives there will be no night and day. This would terrify the Black Serpent to such a degree that he would slither into the ocean, trying to hide himself from the great light. He would sink beneath the Great Waters and never be seen by the People again.

A part of the White Serpent would have survived. Although weak, he too, would see this light and make a feeble attempt to gather himself up and go towards that light. Suffering greatly from the wound received in battle with the Black Serpent, this portion of the White Serpent would find its way to the hilly country. Here it would be taken in and helped by the People, as it is their way to nurture the weak. This portion of the White Serpent would take on the ways of the People, but for a long time after, he would shake with fear whenever he again witnessed a great light.

Then, as if rising from the ground itself, the form of the Red Serpent would appear. He would also witness the strange Light shining like a great star, and he would tremble with fear. He would also try to crawl towards the North Country, but would die along the journey from his wounds. Leaving behind him a bloody trail that would split the Earth into a shaky canyon. This trail would split this land of the Turtle in two, and then into four pieces.

To the south where the Black serpent had vanished the Ice would begin melt, great pieces of ice would begin to fall from the sky, putting much of the land to the East into the deep sleep of winter. There it would be purified from the death that it had known. In these times we will witness other strange occurrences with the weather. The seas would become violent and rise covering much of the old shoreline. New cliffs would rise from the sea, as well as new lands.

The trail left behind by the Red Serpent would be washed clean as it filled with the waters from the North. New mountains would form along where the body of the Red Serpent lay still and cold in its death. This would form a new sea in the North Country, which would forever remind the people of the dark times through which they had passed.

The mysterious light would be as a mist and would engulf the entire Earth much like a giant cloud. We will be lifted from the wheel of time, and we will be unable to determine its passing. Death will cease to be. Our dream will blend and become many realities, all different yet all truth. As we experience the unravelling of the dream. We will witness the force that which allows our perceptions to manifest and express as our reality. For within this great light the nature of all things is dreamlike

From the centre of the mysterious light the Great Star would begin to emerge. The light from this star would swell and eventually become brighter even than our Sun. It would appear to take form an eight pointed star as it came closer and closer to the Earth. It would become so large that it would block out much of the heavens from our view. Its presence would cause many things to be effected and we will witness much phenomena as the new world is born before our eyes

There will appear in the heavens a great bow having the twelve colours of creation. From this bow would be heard the sound of all people, all who ever were and all that would be. Then there would be a shifting of the sound like a great harmonic. It would then appear as if they were all one voice, singing the sound of the new Creation. The sound of what had been heard so long ago when this world was itself created. When we first walked upon the Earth and wondered at the newness of her.

When the Star emerges from within the light many of the People who will have been hiding will come forth from their seclusion. Many will come from their refuge in the hills and mountains. They will be strange as if they were walking for the first time. There will be many new colours and species of life that will come forth from the great void. For they will have lifted their voices to join with the voices of the heavens.

Man and beast all manner of life form upon this plane will recognize and acknowledge their part in the spider web of life. They shall know their part in the dream for life will have become in a moment the expression of each of their visions of how things would be. There shall come a day like no other for all the creatures of the Earth in that moment of forever shall be as one, and man and beast shall communicate as it was long ago, for fear shall be a no thing. A sound shall come forth from the great star.

The people who will be coming forth in little bands from all throughout the hilly country will witness the appearance of Daganaweda, as if walking right out of this Great Star, returning to the People. The Peacemaker would be joined by many others as the dream of horror would come to a close. With his return there would be much rejoicing, and the people would feel like they had awakened from a dream. They would once again walk the way of the Great Peace, Kia ëneri Kowa, and form a new and great civilization that will continue into forever, creating a new world from the essence of the old. In this world even the eldest of us would be as children, yet possess the wisdom of experience of the ages that had come before.

We will join once again with our brothers from the stars. No one shall be denied, and no one shall be untouched in this time. No dream shall not come to pass, and no thought shall go unrealised. To speak more of it would serve no purpose for it will be beyond our comprehension what will occur. The way of the Kia neri Kowa shall help create the new world you seek. That which is created shall be born of the heart.

The time for the need for darkness will have passed. You will once again be as you were in the beginning children of the Sun and you will feel as if you have awakened from a dream. Your need for death and dying shall no longer serve the purpose it did before, for you will be walking upon the pathway of your foreverness. Man and spirit shall be as one in the Great Peace.

It is told.
indigoblue (nli) (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Re: The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?
Thank´s for sharing that Danbones.
trista (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Re: The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?
I´m giving credit to Wayha for this:

May 5, 2001 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - A large, sophisticated civilization equal to Sumeria and Mesopotamia and thriving at the same time at least 5,000 years ago was lost in the harsh desert sands of the Soviet Union near the Iran and Afghanistan borders. But now details are beginning to emerge. This week I visited archaeologist Fredrik Hiebert at the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Anthropology and Archaeology. There he has some exquisite pottery shards the Russian government gave him permission to bring back to the United States from his recent excavations in the Kara Kum desert of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan on the Iran and Afghanistan borders.

No American archaeologist had been there since 1904 when New Hampshire archaeologist and geologist, Raphael Pumpelly, discovered ancient ruins at Anau in southern Turkmenistan near Iran. But the Soviets did not develop the Anau site. In the 1970s, Soviet archaeologists working west of Afghanistan reported vast ruins, all built with the same distinct pattern of a central building surrounded by a series of walls. Several hundred were found in Bactria and Margiana on the border that separates Afghanistan from Russia´s Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. But nothing was reported beyond a few Soviet journals that were never translated.

Then in 1988 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Dr. Hiebert first received permission to travel to Anau. He has discovered it is about 2,000 years older than the Bactria and Margiana sites further to the east, going back nearly seven thousand years to at least 4,500 B. C., or the Bronze Age. Not only are the oldest shards from there of high craftsmanship, this past summer Dr. Hiebert also found a black rock carved with red-colored symbols that, to date, are unidentified but considered to be evidence of a literacy independent of Mesopotamia. The discovery is revolutionary to earlier academic thought that Sumeria was the first civilization with language. Dr. Hiebert will present his findings at an international meeting on language and archaeology at Harvard on May 12.

Interview

Fredrik Talmage Hiebert, Ph.D., Prof. of Anthropology, Univ. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology and Assistant Curator of Near Eastern Archaeology, Philadelphpia, Pennsylvania:
"Our work joins Mesopotamia and Sumeria in being one of the world´s civilizations in an area we hadn´t previously expected to find civilization. This is far to the north of the cities of ancient Mesopotamia, Iran and even north of the ancient cities of the Indus civilization. This is in an area that was formerly part of the Soviet Union, so most western scholars did not have access to this area.

Then this last year during my excavations of June and July 2000, we came across a wonderful discovery: an inscribed stamp seal dated to about 2,300 B. C. that clearly had symbols on it. These symbols looked to us like writing. We looked around at all the different systems in the area. Was it ancient Mesopotamian? Was it ancient Iranian or ancient Indus? We even asked our Chinese scholars if it were ancient Chinese? And it was none of these.

So, we are proposing that this one single stamp seal is the first ever evidence we have of writing among the cities of central Asia that were found by our Soviet, now Russian, colleagues, and now where we are working as well. In other words, it´s not just a linking area of the centers of civilization. But it now contains characteristics of ancient civilizations itself - cities, monumental architecture, a very elite society such as kings and courts, and now some form of literacy or writing system. This is very important because what it means is that we can re-write the history books about the ancient world. We are not really looking at separate, individually developing civilizations that weren´t in contact with each other or didn´t know about each other. It seems quite clear that this new piece of the puzzle suggests there was a broad mosaic of cultures that knew about each other and seemed to be growing in relationship with each other. This is the importance of our work.

HOW DID YOU SPECIFICALLY DATE THAT SEAL THAT HAS THE SYMBOLS?

The way archaeologists would date such a single find like that would be to identify what level exactly it came from in the excavation. And in this case, we were very lucky. It was lying on the floor of a building and it was actually stratified between different floors. And on the floor of that particular building, we found some charcoal. And charcoal allows us to radiocarbon date that level. We had four radiocarbon dates that allowed us to clearly say it was 2,300 B. C. (4300 years ago) that the charcoal was deposited (where rock seal found).

ALL OF THIS SEEMS TO BE PUSHING BACK OUR BENCH MARK FOR THE BEGINNING OF CIVILIZATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EVOLUTIONARY ARC TO GET UP TO 5,000 TO 7,000 YEARS AGO OF A FULL BLOWN CIVILIZATION.

Yes, and one of the methods we use in excavating is what we call stratigraphic excavations where we do very small sized excavations which are very deep. And these small sized excavations allow us to compare the development in an open site through time. And at our site in Central Asia called Anau - just across the Iranian border in the modern state of Turkmenistan - we´ve documented almost continuous growth of the culture in this area for at least 6,500 years. And that goes all the way back to the earliest farmers we have in the area. And what´s unique and special is it´s clear to see that they used the same forms of farming and herding in central Asia as did the ancient Mesopotamian people. So, we´ve got clear evidence for the interaction and the co-development of farming levels in central Asia, just as in Mesopotamia.

So, we are looking at a part of the world, even though it had been forgotten by western scholars, which really takes its place as a partner in the development from the first farmers about 10,000 years ago up to early villagers when we see the beginning of our settlement in Anau at Turkmenistan 4,500 B. C., all the way through the development of these large cities that we are finding out in the deserts. And I am quite convinced that 5,000 years ago an ancient Sumerian would have some understanding of what a central Asian was, or what central Asian artifacts were and vice versa.

HOW BIG IS THE SITE NOW SO FAR THAT YOU HAVE EXCAVATED?

We´ve been looking at some of these large desert oasis sites in part of the Kara Kum Desert of Turkmenistan which cover an area of 100 miles long by some 50 miles wide. This is an area that is simply dotted with archaeological sites. We call this an ´ancient oasis.´ It would have been an area watered in the past with irrigation canals and would have been a lush agricultural oasis where farming would have produced an abundance of wheat and barley.

Today it´s sandy. The sites are almost gone. It takes excavation to reveal the plans of these buildings. Once the buildings are excavated, we see they are unlike any other area that we have previously worked in Mesopotamia or Iran. These buildings tend to be in the 300 to 500 foot length on each side, often having many series of walls that enclose them surrounded by the fields, the agricultural fields. It´s almost like a building complex with dozens and dozens of rooms inside them. Quite unusual and apparently quite an organized society.

THAT SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD SUPPORT A LARGE POPULATION. DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND WHAT WAS THE WATER SOURCE? WERE THERE ANY WELLS UNDERGROUND OR ANY KIND OF NEARBY RIVER SOURCE?

It´s really hard to predict how many people would live in a particular building or how long a building was occupied, whether people living in one part and then another part. It seems that these large building complexes would support hundreds of people. Probably not thousands. They are not as big as a traditional ancient city, but their organization and density of rooms in them suggest it would be a fairly large population for that area.

About the water source. Clearly, water was the key to life out in the middle of the desert. And the only way that people could have lived out there is if they took a local river - and there were rivers that ran out into the desert - and modify the delta of the river. In other words, where the river snakes out into the desert, rather than letting it form a giant jungle morass of thickets, the people must have cut down the thicket and cleared irrigation canals. Once they did that, they took that desert oasis and made it bloom. Can you imagine that, 4,000 years ago, making a desert bloom?

WELL, IT HAPPENED IN EGYPT ALONG THE NILE?

It certainly did. And in many ways, these central Asian desert oases are like the Nile in which you could have one foot in a lush oasis and one foot in the sand right at the edge.

AND IT SOUNDS AS IF THIS WERE HAPPENING IN MESOPOTAMIA, EGYPT, CENTRAL ASIA, ALL AT THE SAME TIME, ALL BACK MUCH FURTHER THAN ANYONE EVER REALIZED.

Yes, this is one of the things that intrigues us all is to imagine a system that we had previously thought may have existed only 2000 years ago when the Romans were in power in the Mediterranean and the Han Dynasty was the great Imperial power in China. Now we are pushing that thousands of years back earlier than that into the Bronze Age. One of our questions is about how much trade was going on among them? Was there actually a Bronze Age Silk Road, a 4000 year old Silk Road? I don´t think we´re yet able to answer that, but we can talk about the importance of these desert oases as a pre-Silk Road civilization.

NOW, ON THE TABLE WITH US, IT ALMOST LOOK AS IF I AM LOOKING AT DELFT CHINA. HOW DID THIS BLUE AND WHITE, DELICATE PATTERN COME TO BE IN CENTRAL ASIA ALONG WITH THESE OTHER PIECES? WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT? HOW OLD IS IT AND WHERE DID YOU FIND IT?

On the table in front of us are a series of pottery shards. A pottery shard is a part of a pot that was broken. These pottery shards are the best thing we have in archaeology because when they are broken, people throw them away. These are the remains we find most commonly on the dig. So, I have a selection of ceramic shards which represent the time scale we have from Central Asia.The first piece we have is the blue and white ceramic that has a bird or dragon on it and these curly designs that do remind us of Delft ceramics. This is a 15th Century A. D. Silk Road pot. It would have been locally made, but it would have been made in imitation of Chinese blue and white. And what´s interesting about this is that in central Asia, they are making imitations of Chinese blue and white. And in Europe they were also making imitations of Chinese blue and white. It was sort of the Coca-Cola signature of the past.

Moving on chronilogically, we turn to another well-made pot. It´s so thin (knocks on it), you can hear how finely made it is ONLY 1/8TH INCH THICK. Yes, this is a piece that is about 4,500 years old (2,500 B. C.), about 2,000 years earlier than the blue and white ceramic. Incredibly well made.It was obviously done by a master craftsman potter. this was made up in the desert oasis of Turkmenistan and it reflects a certain style that the people had. They didn´t paint their pottery. You might think that had to do with the technology of the time, but in fact, it was their style not to paint their pottery. It´s quite nice made. It´s sort of buff on top and on the bottom it´s red. They distinctly and purposefully did that. All of their ceramics from Central Asia is fine from this time period and it reflects the high level of crafts they had in the area

Then we move on to three artifacts, not pottery, but metal and bone artifacts dated to about 2000 B. C., so these are about 4100 years old. We are moving back in large jumps of time. And here we see a bronze ax in the form of a bird´s head with a feather going back and very clear eye.

And what we call a ´bone tube.´ I wish we had a better name for it. They are always polished very finely with eyes, headdress or hair and some form of necklace or some perhaps a beard. And these ancient tubes we think were part of the ancient rituals of 2000 B. C. And the ritual life is another area we as archaeologists can look at. So we can look at the nature of their houses, the nature of their trade with these stamp seals we find, the nature of their production such as the pottery and even the types of religious objects they had such as the bone tube.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BONE TUBE WAS USED FOR?
We´re not exactly sure, but it was found in piles of dirt we have analyzed that had a tremendous amount of ephedra. Ephedra is a type of plant that ancient Zoroastrians used to create a ritual drink that allowed them to hallucinate and get closer to God. It may well be that the tube was used in some pre-Zoroastrian ritual involving ephedra. Ephedra has medicinal factors. The decongestant Sudafed is made from the same ephedra chemical. But if you take it in some quantity and mix it with a poppy or opium, it would have the effect of giving you visions or hallucination

WHAT ABOUT THE BEIGE POT?
We have two pots, each a thousand years earlier than each other. This one a very beatuiful vase made out of buff ceramics only about 1/8th of an inch thick from 2,500 B. C. This is, would have been made at the same time that thee great City/States of Sumer were in existence. This would pre-date some of the fine ceramics that were in China. So it is very significant that we had a civilization in Central Asia at the time. So we can date from the excavations to 2,500 B. C. This is at the time period of some of the earliest cities in central Asia.

The last pot here is perhaps the most ornate. it´s painted with absolutely gorgeous tree designs surrounded by squares have a step motif. it´s very finely made, only about 1/8th inch thick - a very fine ceramic - and it has this beautiful paint. this is the oldest pottery we have from about 3,500. B.C. and represents the type of ceramics just before people in central Asia began to build big cities.

IN THE AREA YOU ARE WORKING, IF YOU WERE GOING TO TIE THEM INTO BLOODLINES OF PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY, WHICH COUNTRY WOULD BE CLOSEST TO THIS GROUP?

That of course is one of the questions we would like to know, but don´t have the means to answer right now. I think that if we used the old perspective in suggesting there were individual civilizations that developed by themselves without much interaction, we might say Turkish people in the area are the descendants.

DID YOU EVER FIND ANY SKELETONS DURING THIS WORK?

Burials were very formally made. They would build a mud brick structure, construct a little house and put ceramics such as some of these pots here. Sometimes they would leave a ritual last dinner in with the burials. These have taught us a great deal about the people. We haven´t found as many burials as we have found along the Indus River or in Mesopotamia, but we´ve found enough to give us an interesting idea about the funereal rituals and the afterlife that the central Asians thought (exists).

IS IT POSSIBLE THERE ARE FEWER SKELETONS BECAUSE THEY MIGHT HAVE USED A FORM OF CREMATION AND BURNED THEM?

That certainly is possible. There is a ritual in ancient Persian Zoroastrianism that we think would have an early form in the desert oases that would involve leaving the bodies out to return to nature.

SO IN A DESERT CLIMATE, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN WIND BLASTED AND DISINTEGRATED?

Yes, so the burial record might not reflect the size of the population, exactly.

AND IT WOULD BE HARD THEN FOR ARCHAEOLOGISTS TODAY TO KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT THAT POPULATION SIZE WAS IN CENTRAL ASIA?

Yes, there are some things we can guess at, but we are never going to be able to determine such as the exact size of the population.

WHAT HAS SURPRISED YOU THE MOST FROM THE EARLY 1980S TO NOW?

Well, I think the thing that surprised me most was actually not the archaeological remains themselves, but the reactions of our colleagues. As we began to peel back the lawyers and reveal civilization in the desert oases, some people wouldn´t believe us. Some people did believe us. Some people have challenged the origins of this. Some people have simply ignored this. What we are really seeing is that now from the 1980s to the beginning of the 21st Century is finally an understanding that this area really takes its place in among the great civilizations of the old world.

SO, YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOUR OWN COLLEAGUE SCIENTISTS WERE NOT OPEN MINDED TO THIS DISCOVERY?

I don´t know if they weren´t open minded. They hadn´t taken into consideration this new area of the world. And the more we work on it, the more we realize that this is an important part of the world. It was an important part of the world in the past and it was directly connected with the other areas. As we work more on this and create a better understanding of it in English and western languages, the more we are getting the idea out that we have a large Bronze Age civilization in central Asia.

COULD THERE HAVE BEEN IN THE CELTIC WORLD UP IN THE BRITISH ISLES BUILDING THE MEGALITHIC STONE CIRCLES THAT PRE-DATED ALL OF THIS?

This question of the connection between the Celtic world and the ancient Near East is one that´s been suggested as much as 100 years ago. The erection of these large stone megalithic monuments has parallels in the Black Sea world where megalithic tombs are there and further west in the Mediterranean, and perhaps even on the Eurasian steppes.

Nevertheless, to consider those monumental works part of a civilization wouldn´t fall into the same category as the types of societies we´re talking about in central Asia or Mesopotamia because the builders of the monoliths really didn´t have - we don´t have evidence of settled farming or urban life. No cities. None of the domestic animals and plants. It´s a type of complexity that is very different from central Asia, the Indus Valley and central Asia or China.

So, I think to be open minded, we have to allow us to understand the deep complexity of building monolithic monuments, but realizing diversity is also something very important. In central Asia, people built cities as they did in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. But in the areas of Europe, farming took much longer to get there. The farming that finally entered into Europe after central Asia, thousands of years, and after the Indus Valley, represent a different type of culture.

WHERE DOES YOUR WORK GO FROM HERE? WHAT´S NEXT?

We´re very excited about discovering the stamp seal at our site dated to 2,300 B. C. We´re certainly going to go back and look for more evidence of literacy and administration of trade from this time period. We hope to dig deeper to find out how (far down) this particular civilization and site goes in this area. We haven´t reached the bottom yet. We´re still digging down. We really look forward to going back for a couple more seasons at this particular site. Then we hope to expand our research into looking at the ancient trade routes in the area.

HOW DEEP ARE YOU DOWN?

We have a site that is about 35 feet above the present surface and we´ve dug down about 15 feet below the present surface. And we´re still going down! What that means is that the ancient surface has risen through time. There´s been deposits that have come from the mountains - silt, dirt, have been deposited around this archaeological site raising the surface through time. So we don´t know how much further we have to go down. And it´s very exciting that it´s continuing to reveal older and older strata to investigate. That´s one of the joys of archaeology. You can never predict what you are going to find. Every season there are new surprises."

June 2001 - Dr. Hiebert and geological team return to Anau site to core down through archaeological dig to see how much further it is to natural geological strata. Work time about a month. September 2001 or June 2002 - Return again for more excavation. Work time about two months.

A book about Dr. Hiebert´s work is available from amazon.com:

© 1994 and published by
Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology
Harvard University

Other Archaeological News: Caral, Peru site in the Supe Valley has now been dated between 2627 B.C. and 2020 B. C., the same time period that Central Asia and Mesopotamia were flourishing and the Egyptian pyramids were being constructed. Musical instruments were part of the Caral culture which Science reported on April 27 is the Western Hemisphere´s oldest city and home to a civilization as old and advanced as any in the world. See: Earthfiles.com for Science Report 05-06-01.
Niki (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Powerful conspiracies try to allow only a distorted version to be expressed. Our social and religious history has been falsified for thousands of years, ever since the Egyptians, forgetting or ignoring the truths handed down to them by their ancestors

:) There are still some remnants of truth left.
Putting the puzzle pieces together is ours now.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Danbonesnli (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Re: The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?
so solly for the long Qand P

The I Ching espouses a very similar politic
to what Dekanewida preached, and is regarded
as possibly having been writen before "known"
civilization, which might put its roots all the way back to Lemuria...it contains some dazzeling
quantum mechanics...
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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bump
Tex Arcana (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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I will begin with some caution by saying that the Amurians, an Eastern Caucasoid group began a Pacific migration sometime well before 13,000 when they first appear in the Japanese islands as the Jomon. Simultaneously another similar group is leaving what is now the Sahara as desertification begins rapidly devastating the lush grasslands.Both groups possess a sailing tradition which lingers on now only in the Caroline Islands. Both journey to the arctic to contact the Inuit and Gilyak for reindeer hides used for sails. Pockets exist also in Ireland,Scotland and Malta. Figurines of the stone age Goddess are common to all as is the bear cult. Apparently a common language is spoken but in the Pacific the r is lost after separation with the other groups over a period of 7,000 years. Ainu and Basque and Dravidian are the remnants today of that language which was last unified sometime in the Neolithic.

Joseph B Birdwell thought that these people were the first to reach the Americas by sea and he traced their origin to the Chou-k´-ou-tien cave fossils of 300,000 years ago. I have not yet found any substantial evidence of an advanced technological culture originating in the Pacific but I have only examined the issue superficially at this point.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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wthread
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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bump
Kimberly (nli) (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Great stuff guys.
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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I tend to agree more with what Scallion says of Lemurian life ... back in the early 90´s, I was hellbent on learning all I could, feeling into the energy of Lemuria.

Also, I have great respect for the Q´ero.
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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bump
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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interesting
buddha bloke (OP)

12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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dannybones, trista, black, tex an everyone:)... thanks for the great input:) cheers :cheers:

... reading book
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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Re: The Lost Lands of Lumania.. Atlantis and...?
Makani posted about a little Russian boy´s recollections on Lemuria, she may still have it, months ago.

Good read
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12/08/2005 10:19 AM
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tex-

I recall that titihaha is the same in Japanese as it is in Peruvian..

´father-mother´

Sir Richard Burton of the Nile fame also noted in the side notes to his sword book that linguistically, the Peruvian area had Egyptian in the roots

Interesting
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Oh yeah, tex-

There´s a Jomon museum on the Noto Hanto (peninsula) in Japan, which is in Ishikawa-ken (prefecture).

It is quite an interesting museum

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