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What is the difference between a principle and a belief?

 
spacetime continuum

User ID: 626081
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03/03/2009 06:22 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
principles are like axioms upon which behavior revolves.

think of principles as the axis/axle and the behavior as a spinning wheel.

the beliefs combine to form the axle part.
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

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03/04/2009 03:24 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
If I am capable of committing said action, (going against my own relative principle and belief) say, occasionally because I am human and make mistakes....is that different than, say, going against them all the time and deceiving myself into believing I have principles?

Belief without principle ensues? Self-deception?

"Do as I say, not as I do?"


You?
 Quoting: We Are Dust


That's another can of worms: Relative and absolute principles.

Wouldn't a principle that you are able to go against just an ideal or a wish (wishy washy).

I'd like to think a principle can't be broken. Or it would require extraordinary circumstances, kind of like death before dishonor. Maybe that's why I've avoided them . . .

I have a lot of truisms, insights, opinions . . .

But I'm going on the record with my first principle. It sounds simple, but I think its may have far reaching applications:

Accept no Substitute.
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03/04/2009 04:04 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
"What is the difference between a principle and a belief?"

Prinicple is what you owe on your house. You are of the belief you are paying the prinicple, or that is you are telling people.

Oh, "I paid $189K for this place", but actually you'll pay twice + that over the term of the loan.

Even worse with credit cards. So you see sometimes belief's can get us into trouble.

They empower those who use them for their gain.
DC., is a Gr8 example of just that sort of thing.
We Are Dust

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03/05/2009 02:36 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
If I am capable of committing said action, (going against my own relative principle and belief) say, occasionally because I am human and make mistakes....is that different than, say, going against them all the time and deceiving myself into believing I have principles?

Belief without principle ensues? Self-deception?

"Do as I say, not as I do?"


You?


That's another can of worms: Relative and absolute principles.

Wouldn't a principle that you are able to go against just an ideal or a wish (wishy washy).

I'd like to think a principle can't be broken. Or it would require extraordinary circumstances, kind of like death before dishonor. Maybe that's why I've avoided them . . .

I have a lot of truisms, insights, opinions . . .

But I'm going on the record with my first principle. It sounds simple, but I think its may have far reaching applications:

Accept no Substitute.
 Quoting: Dozan Hertz.


You most likely read my post on page one about whether or not to shoot and kill a person?

Did you find that to be a good example of principle in question? No?

As far as 'wishy washy' personally I think that given the right circumstance anyone is capable of breaking a principle. (which lines up with your 'extraordinary circumstance' line of thinking)

Perhaps to me, lying is as serious as anything else? And for me personally to lie is a very serious matter and would require 'extraordinary circumstances.'

The degree of seriousness placed upon any action is relative to that person. No?


As far as 'accept no substitute' that is interesting.

You would have to 'believe' that what you do choose accept is the real thing and is best for you and those around you. No?

Suppose your 'real thing' and mine differ?

That concept too is relative.

You would have to 'believe' that what you do choose accept is the real thing and is best for you and those around you. No?

Suppose your 'real thing' and mine differ?

What you may find as an 'absolute' I may not. That concept too is relative.

Are there absolutes in the universe that we have no say in?

I 'believe' so.

Again though, how I perceive those 'absolutes' and how you do can be two very different ideals.


However, your choice to stand upon that principle and how you honor that principle is what matters. Right?

(Being true to your own convictions.)


I think that 'Accept no substitute' is a great basis for all principles, and at the same time encompasses the very definition and all forms of any 'principle' itself.
For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. Psa 103:14

*
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

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03/06/2009 10:39 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
You most likely read my post on page one about whether or not to shoot and kill a person?

Did you find that to be a good example of principle in question? No?

 Quoting: We Are Dust


Sure, extraordinary circumstances.


As far as 'wishy washy' personally I think that given the right circumstance anyone is capable of breaking a principle. (which lines up with your 'extraordinary circumstance' line of thinking)

Perhaps to me, lying is as serious as anything else? And for me personally to lie is a very serious matter and would require 'extraordinary circumstances.'

The degree of seriousness placed upon any action is relative to that person. No?

 Quoting: We Are Dust


Not lying is a virtue and very honorable. Can get you into trouble though. May you consider, underlying the principle, is a fear that you couldn't or shouldn't be forgiven for lying? To transgress and be forgiven can be a wonderful affirmation of human nature. As long as you don't make a habit of it, and you are doing it for a genuine reason, lying should be seen as a terrible sin.

If you never give people the opportunity to show their better nature, they may be forced to show their lesser selves.

As far as 'accept no substitute' that is interesting.

You would have to 'believe' that what you do choose accept is the real thing and is best for you and those around you. No?

Suppose your 'real thing' and mine differ?

That concept too is relative.

You would have to 'believe' that what you do choose accept is the real thing and is best for you and those around you. No?

Suppose your 'real thing' and mine differ?

What you may find as an 'absolute' I may not. That concept too is relative.

Are there absolutes in the universe that we have no say in?

I 'believe' so.

Again though, how I perceive those 'absolutes' and how you do can be two very different ideals.


However, your choice to stand upon that principle and how you honor that principle is what matters. Right?

(Being true to your own convictions.)


I think that 'Accept no substitute' is a great basis for all principles, and at the same time encompasses the very definition and all forms of any 'principle' itself.
 Quoting: We Are Dust



Thanks, I appreciate the thought that has gone into your response.

And have been thinking about this issue of the relative 'real thing' in other terms . . .

Is there a difference between a substitute and compromise?

I hope so.

A compromise is not directly replacing one thing with another, but, on the other hand, you are still not getting what you want or need (my motivation behind this principle).

What may be more important though, is via compromise, you haven't given up on you position either, just allowed changes to make it functional.

Got to mull on this some more though.
We Are Dust

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03/07/2009 01:43 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?

Not lying is a virtue and very honorable. Can get you into trouble though. May you consider, underlying the principle, is a fear that you couldn't or shouldn't be forgiven for lying? To transgress and be forgiven can be a wonderful affirmation of human nature. As long as you don't make a habit of it, and you are doing it for a genuine reason, lying should be seen as a terrible sin.

If you never give people the opportunity to show their better nature, they may be forced to show their lesser selves.
 Quoting: Dozan Hertz.


Lies can actually kill things. Relationships, trust, foundations built, families, business, etc.

Speaking for myself: The underlying fear is a fear of the result of said action (lie) and the potential that the repair of something that I value may not be an option if it is broken beyond repair.

Where I may be able to forgive a lie, I can not expect others to forgive in the same manner that I may. (They may be more generous than I, or more stringent)

So one may say that there is actually an underlying fear of non-forgiveness from others, yes. However, more important to me is the fear of what I will inflict upon others as a result of my own destruction.

The destruction from a lie may remain permanent (sometimes) and it is often difficult (but not impossible) to rebuild or earn back trust from others.

Do you agree or disagree with that? (for yourself)


Yes, I agree completely that we MUST allow for people to show their better nature and I hope others would allow me that as well.

And, not everybody has matured to where we may be. Likewise there are certainly areas that we have not matured as much as others too.

Furthermore, if we do 'expect the worst' then I think that we can cheat others and ourselves out of some very necessary experiences for human growth. Not all steps in the process of growth are pleasant -however beneficial. Yes? No?

I am guilty of this at times. (Expectation of too much, or to live up to MY standards real or imagined)

You have given me something to reflect upon in greater detail. Thanks.



Thanks, I appreciate the thought that has gone into your response.

And have been thinking about this issue of the relative 'real thing' in other terms . . .

Is there a difference between a substitute and compromise?

I hope so.

A compromise is not directly replacing one thing with another, but, on the other hand, you are still not getting what you want or need (my motivation behind this principle).

What may be more important though, is via compromise, you haven't given up on you position either, just allowed changes to make it functional.

Got to mull on this some more though.
 Quoting: Dozan Hertz.


Yes, I also would hope that substitute and compromise can well be two separate choices and have different meaning in such things as we discuss? Yes, I hope so.


However,

do you think in that what we accept as an 'absolute principle' there should be no room for substitute or compromise unless perhaps our very life depends upon it? Or, NEVER substitute or compromise PERIOD?

Would we be willing to actually die for that absolute and refuse all else in no uncertain terms? Is willing and doing two separate matters as well?

This would be limited to ONE or a VERY FEW matters would it not?

Like the shooting of a possible intruder...

Example: Principle = I will not kill an innocent person even if it costs me my life.

say you in fact decide that you are unsure of who the intruder is......

(your uncle who has a key to your home has been known to wander the neighborhood and has mild dementia, it could be him, you have no time to call out and even if you did he may or may not answer. You think there is no way he could be out because your sister who cares for him locks him in at night. BUT hmmmm it could be he got out. However the profile in the dark does not quite match him, yet it could be. hmmmmm You can shoot low, but it's dark and you may or may not hit what you aim at. Your shot may kill.)

....and that if it does turn out to be a killer you reason that your time on earth is up and you do not shoot rather than to kill a possible innocent family member. Or, maybe you substitute/comprimise your principle, shoot and possibly kill a human being, and take your chances to possibly save your life.

'Death before dishonor' at all costs and stand upon the principle that you should not kill an innocent even if you die in the process for that principle?

Or, 'substitute': I will defend myself and home at all costs even if it means to take an innocent life mistakenly. Do you decide to defend thyself at all costs to protect what may or may not be a threat to your own life and may or may not kill a beloved family member to save yourself?

Or, 'compromise': I will aim for a leg or another body part to injure BUT with a definite risk of death to what may be an innocent.

Say in the end that you decide not to shoot and it is a killer and he kills you, you died for your principle. Did you make a fatal mistake in not substituting or compromising your principle? No?


FINALLY, if you had thought this scenario through prior to the actual event (perhaps thoughts motivated by your purchase of a deadly weapon for your home) because you were meditating on your principle and had run through some possible events that could occur (knowing your uncle's tendencies and knowing life is unpredictable as far as crime etc.) regarding your principles....would that have made a difference in your decisions? Could you have put preventative measures in place in this scenario? (with some events you cannot 'prepare' of course)

Should we often reflect upon and meditate on our principles, and what they MEAN IN ACTION?

Will this make a difference, or is life too unpredictable to say for sure in such extreme cases?

Even if we have 'absolute' principles can we really adhere to them in extreme cases where our very life may be in danger; and can we really ever know our own untested principles after all?

Does 'my life in danger' include cases where it may not be my physical life but even cases where I might lose something precious to me like a spouse? (who I may see as a part of my very 'life' as I know it)

What measures will I go to to protect myself? My 'principles?' Is there a disparity between the two? (self and 'imagined' self)

Is it an illusion, or reality?

Does it really come down to 'belief?'

'Belief' in what we WISH/IMAGINE/HOPE/DETERMINE to do to act on any untested 'principle', and 'belief' that we CAN/WILL stick to our principle when our feet are to the fire and absolute proof of our principle is unavoidable and required?

And even tested principles remain in question until such time they are re-tested. No?

hmmmmmmm.


In everyday life, substitute and/or compromise of principles at some point and time is an absolute necessity?


(Like the line of thought here, although, I too must ponder it a bit more.)

Thanks Dozan.
For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. Psa 103:14

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Anonymous Coward
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03/07/2009 01:45 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
a principle's a line in the sand

a belief is thinking the sand is actually sugar
Anonymous Coward
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Pakistan
03/07/2009 02:00 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
nice topic and i think it's excellent that you (dozan) are examining this issue.

read this when you have the time

[link to nobeliefs.com]

and read about e-prime too.

there's a lot more..

I haven't had any beliefs for a long time. I do have some 'principles' and I act as if I believe in some assumptions such as, friendship and love is a 'good' thing etc. but really.. there 'is' NO such thing as 'REALLY'.

It's hard, it was very confusing the first few years.. very very confusing. It's still hard. And I can not believe in anything now even if I wanted to.

I don't know what I am living for. I do have one friend, and that friend is basically the reason I'm still on this planet.

I don't know where I'm going.. I have seen and experienced a lot of out of the ordinary things. things of all kinds. but I've never once... believed in anything. I do believe in a lot of spiritual things.. but I never make any assumptions about anything. I don't trust my own mind and I always keep the option open to myself that my sense of self could be an illusion. an infinite loop illusion kinda thing...

can't be sure of anything. one thing i am sure of is that i love that friend of mine.

1dunno1
Anonymous Coward
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03/07/2009 02:02 PM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
i meant to link to this page

[link to nobeliefs.com]
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

User ID: 603317
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03/09/2009 12:46 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
i meant to link to this page

[link to nobeliefs.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 629998


Thanks. Might print it for a more leisurely read.
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

User ID: 603317
Australia
03/09/2009 12:54 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
nice topic and i think it's excellent that you (dozan) are examining this issue.

read this when you have the time

[link to nobeliefs.com]

and read about e-prime too.

there's a lot more..

I haven't had any beliefs for a long time. I do have some 'principles' and I act as if I believe in some assumptions such as, friendship and love is a 'good' thing etc. but really.. there 'is' NO such thing as 'REALLY'.

It's hard, it was very confusing the first few years.. very very confusing. It's still hard. And I can not believe in anything now even if I wanted to.

I don't know what I am living for. I do have one friend, and that friend is basically the reason I'm still on this planet.

I don't know where I'm going.. I have seen and experienced a lot of out of the ordinary things. things of all kinds. but I've never once... believed in anything. I do believe in a lot of spiritual things.. but I never make any assumptions about anything. I don't trust my own mind and I always keep the option open to myself that my sense of self could be an illusion. an infinite loop illusion kinda thing...

can't be sure of anything. one thing i am sure of is that i love that friend of mine.

1dunno1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 629998


Like a kite that doesn't believe in the wind? But still, you are flying. Your friend is the string, but you don't know who is holding the other end.

My best wishes to you.

hf
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

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03/09/2009 01:23 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?


Lies can actually kill things. Relationships, trust, foundations built, families, business, etc.

Speaking for myself: The underlying fear is a fear of the result of said action (lie) and the potential that the repair of something that I value may not be an option if it is broken beyond repair.

Where I may be able to forgive a lie, I can not expect others to forgive in the same manner that I may. (They may be more generous than I, or more stringent)

So one may say that there is actually an underlying fear of non-forgiveness from others, yes. However, more important to me is the fear of what I will inflict upon others as a result of my own destruction.

The destruction from a lie may remain permanent (sometimes) and it is often difficult (but not impossible) to rebuild or earn back trust from others.

Do you agree or disagree with that? (for yourself)

 Quoting: We Are Dust


Sure. I don't think lying is fundamentally a good thing. I was giving a 'minority report'.

Yes, I agree completely that we MUST allow for people to show their better nature and I hope others would allow me that as well.

And, not everybody has matured to where we may be. Likewise there are certainly areas that we have not matured as much as others too.

Furthermore, if we do 'expect the worst' then I think that we can cheat others and ourselves out of some very necessary experiences for human growth. Not all steps in the process of growth are pleasant -however beneficial. Yes? No?

 Quoting: We Are Dust


Maturity is definately relative and unstable. In a way, I think I was burdened with too much maturity at a young age and have been rebelling ever since. Going backwards can be beneficial, but not always pleasant for yourself, and others.


I am guilty of this at times. (Expectation of too much, or to live up to MY standards real or imagined)

You have given me something to reflect upon in greater detail. Thanks.

However,

do you think in that what we accept as an 'absolute principle' there should be no room for substitute or compromise unless perhaps our very life depends upon it? Or, NEVER substitute or compromise PERIOD?

Would we be willing to actually die for that absolute and refuse all else in no uncertain terms? Is willing and doing two separate matters as well?

This would be limited to ONE or a VERY FEW matters would it not?

Like the shooting of a possible intruder...

Example: Principle = I will not kill an innocent person even if it costs me my life.

say you in fact decide that you are unsure of who the intruder is......

(your uncle who has a key to your home has been known to wander the neighborhood and has mild dementia, it could be him, you have no time to call out and even if you did he may or may not answer. You think there is no way he could be out because your sister who cares for him locks him in at night. BUT hmmmm it could be he got out. However the profile in the dark does not quite match him, yet it could be. hmmmmm You can shoot low, but it's dark and you may or may not hit what you aim at. Your shot may kill.)

....and that if it does turn out to be a killer you reason that your time on earth is up and you do not shoot rather than to kill a possible innocent family member. Or, maybe you substitute/comprimise your principle, shoot and possibly kill a human being, and take your chances to possibly save your life.

'Death before dishonor' at all costs and stand upon the principle that you should not kill an innocent even if you die in the process for that principle?

Or, 'substitute': I will defend myself and home at all costs even if it means to take an innocent life mistakenly. Do you decide to defend thyself at all costs to protect what may or may not be a threat to your own life and may or may not kill a beloved family member to save yourself?

Or, 'compromise': I will aim for a leg or another body part to injure BUT with a definite risk of death to what may be an innocent.

Say in the end that you decide not to shoot and it is a killer and he kills you, you died for your principle. Did you make a fatal mistake in not substituting or compromising your principle? No?


FINALLY, if you had thought this scenario through prior to the actual event (perhaps thoughts motivated by your purchase of a deadly weapon for your home) because you were meditating on your principle and had run through some possible events that could occur (knowing your uncle's tendencies and knowing life is unpredictable as far as crime etc.) regarding your principles....would that have made a difference in your decisions? Could you have put preventative measures in place in this scenario? (with some events you cannot 'prepare' of course)

Should we often reflect upon and meditate on our principles, and what they MEAN IN ACTION?

Will this make a difference, or is life too unpredictable to say for sure in such extreme cases?

Even if we have 'absolute' principles can we really adhere to them in extreme cases where our very life may be in danger; and can we really ever know our own untested principles after all?

Does 'my life in danger' include cases where it may not be my physical life but even cases where I might lose something precious to me like a spouse? (who I may see as a part of my very 'life' as I know it)

What measures will I go to to protect myself? My 'principles?' Is there a disparity between the two? (self and 'imagined' self)

Is it an illusion, or reality?

Does it really come down to 'belief?'

'Belief' in what we WISH/IMAGINE/HOPE/DETERMINE to do to act on any untested 'principle', and 'belief' that we CAN/WILL stick to our principle when our feet are to the fire and absolute proof of our principle is unavoidable and required?

And even tested principles remain in question until such time they are re-tested. No?

hmmmmmmm.


In everyday life, substitute and/or compromise of principles at some point and time is an absolute necessity?


(Like the line of thought here, although, I too must ponder it a bit more.)

Thanks Dozan.
 Quoting: We Are Dust


As you total up the factors, it begins to sway from free will to determinism. What you actually do at that crisis moment, and would it be a conscious choice, or just appear that way in the aftermath?

A principle is an assertion of free will.

But does belief require 'will' also?

Maybe it is really just about taking responsibility. And so principles and beliefs are just different forms of justification?
Dozan Hertz. (OP)

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03/09/2009 01:36 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
principles are like axioms upon which behavior revolves.

think of principles as the axis/axle and the behavior as a spinning wheel.

the beliefs combine to form the axle part.
 Quoting: spacetime continuum



Fo-sure. It's all spiralling and never stops!
Anonymous Coward
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03/09/2009 01:37 AM
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Re: What is the difference between a principle and a belief?
of course
we choose our beliefs

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