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Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel

 
FreeFlow
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03/19/2009 09:28 AM
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Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
IDF killed civilians in Gaza under lax rules of engagement

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces' claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session's transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course's graduates.
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The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there in the center of Gaza. Everyone there is a terrorist."

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

The head of the pe-military course, Danny Zamir, told Haaretz Wednesday that he did not know in advance what the soldiers would say at the gathering, and what they said "shocked us." He said that after hearing the soldiers, he told IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi about his fears of a serious moral failure in the IDF.

The chief of staff's bureau requested a copy of the transcript of the discussion, and Zamir provided it. This week Zamir met with the IDF's chief education officer, Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister, to discuss the matter. Zamir said he believed the army would take the matter seriously. "They do not intend to avoid responsibility," he said.

The IDF Spokesman's Office said: "As a result of the request of the head of the Rabin pre-military course, Mr. Danny Zamir, to the chief of staff's bureau, a meeting was held between Zamir and the chief education officer, Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister. The chief education officer described to the head of the preparatory course the processes of the operational and ethical inquiries being conducted by the IDF and the chief education officer's staff at all levels."

The chief education officer also described "the actions taken before during and after the operation to inculcate the soldiers and commanders with the moral aspects of the fighting."

The spokesman said that "Brig. Gen. Shermeister also made it clear that the IDF is now conducting intensive and comprehensive inquiries, and that commanders are encouraging discussion of these matters. The IDF has no supporting or prior information about these events. The IDF will check their veracity and investigate as required. The head of the preparatory course was also asked to pass on to the IDF any information he has so we can deal with it and investigate it in depth."


IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement
[link to www.haaretz.com]
*******************************************************

Another article about this can be read here:

Israeli soldiers report abuses in Gaza

Some rights groups have claimed Israel violated the rules of war in its recent killing of Palestinians. Now accounts from Israel's own ranks seem to support the claims. An investigation is ordered.
[link to www.latimes.com]

Last Edited by FreeFlow on 03/20/2009 10:30 AM
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
G. House

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03/19/2009 09:36 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Yet Palestinian terrorists attack civilians as a matter of course.
"Everybody lies."
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 09:39 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Yet Palestinian terrorists attack civilians as a matter of course.
 Quoting: G. House


It's Hamas's ONLY tactic! (besides slaughtering Fatah members, of course)


But FreeFlow is too busy shovelling neo-nazi shit in support of Islamist terrorists to care about the facts - he has proven it MANY times..

jun10r
FreeFlow (OP)

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03/19/2009 09:46 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 09:48 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow


If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..
G. House

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03/19/2009 09:50 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow


Change the subject now.
"Everybody lies."
G. House

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03/19/2009 09:52 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...


If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..
 Quoting: Grizzled Old Goat


I think putting him/her/it in stocks in a square in Tel Aviv with a sign that says holocaust denier would be fitting punishment.
"Everybody lies."
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2009 09:52 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
sbus dumbass


.
FreeFlow (OP)

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03/19/2009 09:53 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Change the subject now.
 Quoting: G. House

It's you who changed the topic in your favorite ever repeating direction ...
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 09:54 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...


Change the subject now.
 Quoting: G. House


I think we should continue to discuss the OP's EPIC hypocrisy. FOR YEARS he has been casting the blame on Israel WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT HAMAS ROUTINELY TARGETS ISRAELI CIVILIANS, AND HAS BEEN DOING SO FOR YEARS.

I think it's high time his feet were held to the fire. What the hell, I've got all day - I think I'll hijack the thread and keep it on topic..
FreeFlow (OP)

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03/19/2009 09:55 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..
 Quoting: Grizzled Old Goat

Your hate is consuming you pfffht ...
Good for your karma btw!
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
G. House

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03/19/2009 09:57 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Change the subject now.

It's you who changed the topic in your favorite ever repeating direction ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow


The topic was attacking civilians was it not?

I didn't change the subject, just pointed out the obvious.
"Everybody lies."
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 09:59 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..

Your hate is consuming you pfffht ...
Good for your karma btw!
 Quoting: FreeFlow

lol

Karma!

What a laff - coming from you. Do you think that Our Lord is going to be pleased with your support of murderers, racist genocide, and slamming other faiths as "satanist"..?

I'd get your asbestos pants back from the cleaners if I were you..
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:00 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..

Your hate is consuming you pfffht ...
Good for your karma btw!
 Quoting: FreeFlow


Hate?

HATE?

Your hatred of Israel, Jews, etc. is shown by every stupid article you post.

YOU are consumed by it.

But that is to be expected from an Austrian NAZI genetically related to Hitler.
"Everybody lies."
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:00 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
It's clear that even the IDF isn't as dead mongering as some GLP posters who always propose capital brutality like nuke them all ...


If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..


I think putting him/her/it in stocks in a square in Tel Aviv with a sign that says holocaust denier would be fitting punishment.
 Quoting: G. House

chuckle

I'd like to see that!
FreeFlow (OP)

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03/19/2009 10:02 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Nice thread pirating, it's clear that's the only thing where you NWO shills excel ...
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:07 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Nice thread pirating, it's clear that's the only thing where you NWO shills excel ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow

AVAST!

Either abandon your thread, Mr Pirate - or answer for your Hamas heroes exclusively targeting Israeli civilians - something you have REFUSED to do for years..


muft1
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:08 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
If you're talking about me - it's YOU and your kind I'd like to see nuked - although it is a bit fast, I think you should suffer more. But God will see to that..

Your hate is consuming you pfffht ...
Good for your karma btw!


Hate?

HATE?

Your hatred of Israel, Jews, etc. is shown by every stupid article you post.

YOU are consumed by it.

But that is to be expected from an Austrian NAZI genetically related to Hitler.
 Quoting: G. House


It's a family thing..

jun10r
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:10 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Nice thread pirating, it's clear that's the only thing where you NWO shills excel ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow


Pirating?

You wanted to point out the attack on civilians.

GOG and I were only reinforcing your point.

You're NEVER friggen happy.
"Everybody lies."
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:12 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Nice thread pirating, it's clear that's the only thing where you NWO shills excel ...


Pirating?

You wanted to point out the attack on civilians.

GOG and I were only reinforcing your point.

You're NEVER friggen happy.
 Quoting: G. House


Man - you try to help someone out..

chuckle
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:22 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
You know...

Palestinians in general must be pretty damn trusting of the Israelis capability to focus their powerful war machine on REAL targets as opposed to innocent civilians.

I mean if they were really afraid of WANTON collateral damage wouldn't the SMART thing to do would be to move away from where they are operating?

Yet they don't seem to do that.

They actually seem pretty confidant that the Israelis deliver their ordnance precisely.

Of COURSE in ANY conflict of that sort accidents are going to happen such as the unfortunate sniper incident quoted in the article.

And considering the situation and the densely packed population in Gaza if the Israelis were the wanton evil killers you make them out to be there would have been tens of thousands of deaths, not the small number that there were considering the extent of firepower used.
"Everybody lies."
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:25 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
You know...

Palestinians in general must be pretty damn trusting of the Israelis capability to focus their powerful war machine on REAL targets as opposed to innocent civilians.

I mean if they were really afraid of WANTON collateral damage wouldn't the SMART thing to do would be to move away from where they are operating?

Yet they don't seem to do that.

They actually seem pretty confidant that the Israelis deliver their ordnance precisely.

 Quoting: G. House


There is a simple solution that has worked well for Hamas and Hizballah - simply MOVE CLOSER TO THE CIVILIANS - OR - PREVENT THEM FROM LEAVING THE LINE OF FIRE..
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2009 10:25 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Change the subject now.

It's you who changed the topic in your favorite ever repeating direction ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow

FF don't worry about the zionists shill bot. It got stuck on the same line a long time ago. So no matter who is saying that the IDF is ruthless and inhumane, even a confession like this one, the bot will always answer the same line. What a joke lmao
Grizzled Old Goat

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03/19/2009 10:27 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Change the subject now.

It's you who changed the topic in your favorite ever repeating direction ...

FF don't worry about the zionists shill bot. It got stuck on the same line a long time ago. So no matter who is saying that the IDF is ruthless and inhumane, even a confession like this one, the bot will always answer the same line. What a joke lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 638232


The JOKE is that you nazi assholes NEVER discuss facts. You simply call those that would question your racist diatribes "bots" or "zionist shills" - without EVER disputing what we say.


F*CKING PATHETIC..


smbrain
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03/19/2009 10:30 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Nice thread pirating, it's clear that's the only thing where you NWO shills excel ...

AVAST!

Either abandon your thread, Mr Pirate - or answer for your Hamas heroes exclusively targeting Israeli civilians - something you have REFUSED to do for years..


:muft1:
 Quoting: Grizzled Old Goat

As for you GOG I will have to report you to your mossad boss. You are becoming lazy and repetitive. Earn your salary you slob! Just read the friggin article and answer correspondingly. You are becoming tiresome and boring.
FreeFlow (OP)

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03/19/2009 10:32 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
FF don't worry about the zionists shill bot. It got stuck on the same line a long time ago. So no matter who is saying that the IDF is ruthless and inhumane, even a confession like this one, the bot will always answer the same line. What a joke lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 638232

Yes and additionally they are implanted which itself draws demon possession unto them, that's why they act like programmed attack hounds ...
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:34 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Change the subject now.

It's you who changed the topic in your favorite ever repeating direction ...

FF don't worry about the zionists shill bot. It got stuck on the same line a long time ago. So no matter who is saying that the IDF is ruthless and inhumane, even a confession like this one, the bot will always answer the same line. What a joke lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 638232


Zionists.

People that wanted their own nation in the ancient Holy Land.

An are where Jews have lived continuously since antiquity.

A land that in 1947 had a government infrastructure vacuum.

So they made a nation.

And the people who don't like them there have had AMPLE opportunity to kick their ass and push them in the sea.

Yet you can't seem to do it.

I say let them have their measely 8,500 odd square miles (out of millions in the ME) and get over it already.

We're sick to death of your whining about it.
"Everybody lies."
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:35 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
FF don't worry about the zionists shill bot. It got stuck on the same line a long time ago. So no matter who is saying that the IDF is ruthless and inhumane, even a confession like this one, the bot will always answer the same line. What a joke lmao

Yes and additionally they are implanted which itself draws demon possession unto them, that's why they act like programmed attack hounds ...
 Quoting: FreeFlow


So you're saying Palestinian terrorists do not attack civilians?

You seem reluctant to address that.
"Everybody lies."
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2009 10:40 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
Hey FF - here's someone attacking Pal civilians - I know you like to point the finger in cases like this - probably whine and jump up and down a bit too!

"Fundamentalist elements" suspected in torching of music school in Jenin

Where did they learn that, the Taliban? No. Muhammad said: "Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance." Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveler) r40.1.

Mercy. Mercy, Mercy, Mercy. "Jenin music center torched," by Merav Yudilovitch for YNet News, March 18:

A Jenin music center operated by the Ramallah-based al-Kamanjati organization was set on fire Monday night. The center's directors said that they did not know who was behind the arson.

The center, which ordinarily provides various music lessons for some 80 children, will be forced to shut down due to the severe damage to the structure and the musical instruments.

Students arrive to the center from the Jenin refugee camp, the town of Jenin, and other neighboring communities.

A statement to the press issued by the center defined the fire as "a crime against humanity and against the right of the Palestinian children and Palestinian society to culture and education.

"Such acts will not deter us from continuing with our work, because music touches the soul and mind and helps them evolve, instead of materialism and walls."

Juliano Mer-Khamis, the founder and director of the Freedom Theater in Jenin, told Ynet: "This is part of an anti-cultural wave of arsons, from which we at the Freedom Theater also suffered." Mer-Khamis was referring to a recent failed attempt to set the theater ablaze.

"This feels like an assault on everything that represents culture and open thought. We at the theater received threats about a month ago, threats that were now realized at al-Kamanjati. There is a lot of tension here," he stated.

According to Mer-Khamis, the pressure has been mounting lately due to the recent boom in cultural endeavors in the area. In about six months a first cinema house is scheduled to open in Jenin, sponsored by the German government.

Some fundamentalist elements feel threatened by this, he said. "The Palestinian Authority is making great efforts to catch the perpetrators. I assume that they have a religious affiliation, although the imam of Jenin stands behind us.

"But there are quite a few elements, within Fatah as well, who believe that music and theater are a distraction. We've reached a critical junction, which I saw coming but feared from, and we will have to deal with it," he concluded.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2009 10:40 AM
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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
The zionazis are being exposed for what they really are, sick,mentally ill, psychopaths that are thirsty for blood, death, and the land of others who they hate!

If you cannot see the truth from this kind of disclosure then you are most likely completley blinded by your own fundamentalism that was fed to you by the brainwashing techniques of religion.

Mind control is a wonderful thing to lose!
G. House

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03/19/2009 10:44 AM

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Re: Finally cruel rules of the IDF's engagement in Gaza are discussed in Israel
The zionazis are being exposed for what they really are, sick,mentally ill, psychopaths that are thirsty for blood, death, and the land of others who they hate!

If you cannot see the truth from this kind of disclosure then you are most likely completley blinded by your own fundamentalism that was fed to you by the brainwashing techniques of religion.

Mind control is a wonderful thing to lose!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 296839


Blah, blah, blah.

Right.

So you're saying Palestinian terrorists DON'T attack civilians?

Simple question really.

Why won't you people answer?
"Everybody lies."

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