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The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance

 
Anonymous Coward
02/01/2005 04:47 AM
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The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Once they came for us - Descending into ignorance

by: Editors Report / Indian Country Today


Then they came for me

´´First they came for the Communists,

and I didn´t speak up,

because I wasn´t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn´t speak up,

because I wasn´t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn´t speak up,

because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one

left to speak up for me.´´

- Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945



In the same way America´s CIA in the 1980s unleashed the violent aspirations of the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, letting the terrorist genie out of that bottle, the call to fundamentalist Christian movement in American politics, encouraged by the current leadership of the GOP, holds the potential to unleash consequences that diminish the open society concept in America, perhaps irrevocably.

It is always a dangerous thing when a country´s government turns increasingly fundamentalist around one particular faith, including Christianity. Whatever the attacks on the liberal philosophy, which the ´´Christian´´ right harshly condemns as the work of the devil on earth, the notion of a secular, tolerant, open-minded society remains the best possible way to democratic intelligence and truth in decision making.

We believe this to be a self-evident truth and one of the most genial of all the foundational elements of the American republic. Formed socially and intellectually from the social climate of the European enlightenment and influenced by American Indian social and governmental examples, the political thought of the U.S. founding fathers rode on some wonderful ´´new´´ notions of human intellectual, social and personal freedoms. Dominant among these was the freedom of intellectual, scientific pursuit of knowledge, free, precisely, from the dogma of the major Christian churches, given as these were to condemn all new knowledge that might contradict any of their faith-based dictums and mandates.

This was the best of the freedom that America pledged to sustain. Indian people early joined this debate over their own spiritual concepts and traditions with Christian missionaries and what comes across from those early documents is how versatile and free the Indian thinkers were relative to the ´´black robes´´ who came among them. Indian people died in large numbers to maintain their independence of culture and ownership of their own lands, even as many chose to embrace the narratives of Christian culture beyond or in addition to their own indigenous narratives of emergence and Creation.

Reducing social truth to a literal interpretation of the Bible is a surefire way to dumb down the American populace and diminish or retard the many advances made in education and general public enlightenment (including public policy) for several generations. There are those who are inspired by the wish to manipulate others who are prone to homily as a political bloc. The new Christian religious exposition is not benign - not because the Christian faith lacks wisdom or compassion - but because those who would manipulate these spiritual sentiments politically are usually political activists bent on acquiring power irrespective of the proliferation of ignorance.

The strategy, employed again and again, is to create national and international crisis out of particular problems and complex social situations. Howard Dean, with whom we had our differences, identified this during the recent presidential campaign: ´´Guns, God and Gays are the fear-factor issues.´´ When these are used and abused to trigger powerful emotions in people, careful discussion becomes impossible and only tense, browbeating argumentation follows.

We are encouraged that more and more voices are challenging this notion of what represents the American republic. There is alarm, finally, that religious faith-based belief is seriously challenging scientific method and the diffusion of knowledge across many school districts in a wide variety of states. The theory of evolution for one is widely challenged by creationists dressed under the banner of ´´intelligent design.´´ What concerns is not the challenge itself, as scientific assertion must always be ready for ongoing challenge, but the fact that the challenge has no such basis in the intellectually accepted scientific method of rigorous inquiry. Rather, ´´intelligent design´´ is simply well conceptualized and crafted ideological garbage.

It shocked many people recently when CBS polling revealed that 55 percent of Americans do not believe in evolution. This jumps by 12 percent to 67 percent for people who voted for President Bush. But this should not surprise, considering that, according to Gallup, one third of Americans believe the Bible literally. Professing tolerance for the possible truth of other religious points of view is nearly impossible for this mindset. In the states of Wisconsin, Montana, South Carolina, Kansas, Arkansas and Mississippi, organized parent groups of this persuasion have consistently pressured against the teaching of evolution. Usually they substitute the term ´´intelligent design´´ for creationism in their curriculums, but they are really talking about the genesis of the Christian Bible as literal truth - a position from which they will not deviate.

That ´´intelligent design´´ as euphemism for direct divine intervention as science in public schools is a clear violation of the principle of separation of church and state is apparently not much of an issue yet, but it needs to be. As religious faith overlays public policy debate, the very science of government, compromise and negotiation, become moot. The principle that guides religious faith has no compatibility with the leeway and tolerance required of legislators. Other recent research (Public Agenda) points out that support for political compromise is diminishing rapidly among American evangelicals of a literal-Bible persuasion, indeed, among all Christians. These are people for whom, as columnist William Raspberry wrote, ´´compromise between righteousness and sin is: Sin.´´

The most ominous of all these trends is the ´´millions of Christian fundamentalists,´´ as Bill Moyers the journalist-philosopher recently remarked, who ´´believe that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse.´´ America and the world do not deserve to be guided by such ignorance.

Moyers reminds us this trend goes back to James Watt, President Reagan´s first secretary of the Interior, who: ´´Told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ.´´ In public testimony he said, ´´after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.´´ These days, the belief resonates strongly, Moyers goes on, with ´´nearly half the U.S. Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - more since the election - [who] are backed by the religious right.´´

The Washington Post (Jan. 23) complains that a dumbing down of America is the result of the faith-based government, warning that it can leave our country´s science flank vulnerable to the new waves of scientists coming out of Asia and Europe. We agree, but would add that a public bigotry against science goes hand in hand with a public bigotry and ignorance against other, non-Christian faiths. The underlying aggression of militant missionizing, that is, the willingness to accost others directly in order to proselytize and impose a religious view - this has been suffered greatly by Indian peoples of the Americas.

And once before, as conquering saviors, they came for us en masse. Under the notion of militant Christianity was institutionalized this country´s greatest misguided social experiment: The Indian boarding schools of the early 20th century, whose official intent was to destroy all that was core in American Indian spiritual belief and ritual, in order to ´´kill the Indian and save the man.´´

Indeed, for American Indian tribal peoples, the experience of the Christian mission has been difficult to digest. The good that it has brought is shrouded in substantial darkness and abuse. Christianization often imposed itself with the intent to fill the full glass of the Indian mind, intending to drown out the indigenous intelligence, sometimes as an invention of the devil himself. This was the general social premise of an imposed ´´educational´´ experience where various Christian denominations bid for ´´their Indians´´ region by region and reservation by reservation, until most were divided for each particular brand of evangelism. This system (as overwhelming force) lasted more than half the century in various ways and it was accompanied by the formal criminalizing of Indian ceremonial spiritual practices that reflected comprehensive and pragmatic religious traditions.

We suggest that dogma and truth are completely different things. There is religious dogma. There is scientific dogma. And there is truth.

Dogma - scientific or religious - is not truth. Truth is elusive. Dogma is not elusive at all. Dogma is always concrete in the mind of the dogmatic. While truth reveals itself sparingly, and best to those with humble attitude, dogma is the brick that hits you in the head from both sides. Dogma does not reveal but imposes itself upon all weary- and weak-minded people, convincing all who will listen of their worthlessness and presumed damnation, but for the power and the path of light offered only by itself. Dogma seeks converts to justify itself. Truth is, and can be found, by intuition and by method. Elusive, it will yield itself always to serious intent and respectful treatment. It has huge natural power that directs itself.

When dogma leads, times become hard and suffering increases. Truth is given by the hand of nature to the open and curious mind of the human being but it can only come to where it is sought, where it can be useful, where it is appreciated.

Let no one be fooled. The religious fundamentalism that is sweeping America poses a serious threat to the advancement of an American culture that learns and grows from rationally applied inquiry and investigation. From an American Indian perspective derived from cultural roots that reach back to the earliest consciousness of these lands, we state clearly that what we are witnessing in America is not American at all. The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance and those who would benefit from America´s descent into ignorance.

[link to www.indiancountry.com]
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Have a little ´faith´ in the human spirit, which will eventually outgrow or ´evolve´ beyond fairy tails.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
"Professing tolerance for the possible truth of other religious points of view is nearly impossible for this mindset."

You can´t "outgrow" God and His Truth. Two thirds of us have made a choice.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
6:28

You are wrong. 2/3 of americans didn´t choose to have religious fundamentalism thrust upon them. I see you apply the same level of comprehension to your thread reading as you do to the bible - you twist it to suit your mindset. That isn´t mature intelligence.

This nation stands for religious freedom, nowhere did our founding fathers write that a 2/3 majority chooses religion for the remaining third.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Praise the Lord smile_hear
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Yes. Praise the lord, privately, in your own house of worship, and leave everybody else alone.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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you feel you can make your beliefs clear on a public board ?

then so may i

Praise the Lord ...

He is my Truth and light smile_hear
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Not just americans.

The same thing is starting to happen over here in Britain too. Laws that erode our freedoms, a "nanny" state that will tell us what´s good for us (and ban everything else).

We don´t have the religious slant yet, but I can see it coming from the likes of Blair and his cronies.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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The time has come for all Americans of unconditional love and courage to speak out against the fanatical and elitist intellectual doctrines and intolerance that are practiced by the churches of academia and spread by the atheistic propagandists in the media.

Remind us how many tens of millions of people have been persecuted and butchered by the intellectual monster called Communism.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Too many bandy about the phrase freedom of religion as if it were a permission slip to go ahead and encroach on others whenever they feel like it and it allows them special priveleges. This priest is suing a town who had to impose parking bans on parishioners who would block homeowners´ driveways and now they´re all crying persecution. What is clear with the fundamentalists is that they have no manners:



Town says church ruining rural lifestyle
Foxfield at odds over rectory and traffic it attracts

By Jennifer Miller, Rocky Mountain News
January 29, 2005

FOXFIELD - A wooden sign reads "Welcome to Foxfield" in red letters that stand out against the otherwise empty landscape.

Beyond it are spacious homes on multiacre lots with rustic log fences. Horses graze on a few lawns.

This quiet oasis seems an unlikely setting for a court battle over religious freedom that pits the Catholic Church against a town of fewer than 800 people.

The trouble started four years ago at the end of a cul-de-sac where Monsignor Edward Buelt set up a rectory in a two-story home.

The Archdiocese of Denver bought 21/2 acres where Buelt would conduct services in his home while a multimillion-dollar church was built nearby.

Buelt´s home seems the picture of tranquility, with blue window shutters and a stone statue in the driveway. But neighbors say Buelt´s services have attracted dozens of outsiders and their vehicles to the tiny rural road.

"It was ruining our country lifestyle," said Chuck Scavuzzo, whose house is cater-corner to Buelt´s.

Larry Gieling, who lives on the cul-de-sac, said the situation "just got ridiculous."

"One night my wife and I came home and cars were lined up and down the street," Gieling said. "We couldn´t even get into our house. Another Sunday two young kids were directing us where to park."

Reacting to complaints, the town passed an ordinance in late 2001 banning "more than five motor vehicles . . . within 1,000 feet" of a private residence "on more than two occasions during any 30-day period."

The law seemed a death knell for the rectory.

But Buelt kept holding services, so the town asked Arapahoe County District Court for a permanent injunction to enforce the ordinance.

Buelt and the archdiocese, believing their rights to worship freely had been violated, filed a countersuit.

Judge Nancy Hopf upheld the ordinance last month.

"The court sympathizes with the archdiocese," she wrote, "(but the) town´s stated goals of health and safety are sufficient to justify the parking ordinance."

The archdiocese is taking the case to the Colorado Court of Appeals.

The judge´s decision "is hostile to our parish, the archdiocese and to religion in general," Buelt wrote in this month´s parish newsletter.

"In the long run, our appeals will prove beneficial to the church throughout Colorado and to all who are concerned about religious liberty in general."

Some Foxfield residents say the issue isn´t religion, but being a good neighbor.

"No one has ever objected to Ed´s house having people there," said Scavuzzo, "but to the amount of traffic it put on our residential, country roads."

Now that the new Our Lady of Loreto Church is open, neighbors don´t understand why Buelt doesn´t sell the house or build a rectory in the church.

Charles Goldberg, an archdiocese attorney, said a plan for a rectory at the church was submitted to the town and awaits approval.

However, town lawyer Thomas Rice said the church never turned in such a plan.

Rice said at a court hearing this week that the parking ordinance does not "irreparably injure" Buelt and the church, as Goldberg alleges.

"He can still practice religion freely," Rice said. "(People) can carpool."

Judge Hopf ruled the archdiocese didn´t have to comply with the ordinance while the case is on appeal.

Hopf noted that the appeal will "likely involve an analysis of important constitutional rights" including freedom of speech and exercise of religion.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
"This nation stands for religious freedom, nowhere did our founding fathers write that a 2/3 majority chooses religion for the remaining third."

The laws of this nation were based on the moral laws of God. A moral society is a good society. Notice the decadence, disease, and ruin that has beset this nation in the past forty years. We were once a nation that was strong and prosperous. Now look at us! Divorce is rampant, homosexuality threatens our children, pedophilia is a curse on us and our children, good education in the schools teaches that you can do your own thing because it´s "normal", and there is more. And you know it.

Forty years ago, we walked our streets in safety and left our doors unlocked at night. Try that now. There IS a difference. What we are seeing is a departure from the moral law. Period. It´s too bad that many of you under 50 years old can´t see this. You think religion is restraining, but it gave us more freedom than you have today.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Prayer -- Public and Private

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Comment: - Jesus promoted private prayer. Public prayers and long prayers were suspect.
I think Matthew 6:5 - 7 are the best verses attributed to Jesus in the Bible.

All the public praying in churches, on TV and Radio by Jesus Worshippers does not accord
with Jesus´ teachings. The push for prayer in schools, courts, etc. by some people again
does not jibe with Jesus´ teachings in the New Testament. I would not trust these people
that practice and promote public prayer and claim they are spokespersons for Jesus and God
-- they don´t even know the Bible they claim to base their teachings on. They are false teachers?

I wonder if they have actually ever seriously read the Bible!

There is a follow-up comment at the end of this page.
E-mail comments


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Nothing could be clearer than the following verses:

Matthew 6:5 - 7

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jesus says you must definitely not pray as the hypocrites pray.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Here Jesus says when thou prayest, you must pray this way:
(1) enter into thy closet.
(2) shut the door.
(3) pray to thy Father which is in secret.
(4) use not vain repetitions.

(Prayer must be in private, not in front of other people.
Do not repeat things over and over again in prayer)
An attribute of a true Christian is: He only prays in private, never in public.


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Matthew 14:23

23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

Matthew 26:36

36. Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

Mark 1:35

35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.

Mark 6:46

46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

Luke 5:16

16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Luke 9:18

18. And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luke 22:45

45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

(Jesus prayed alone, as he said people should -- not in public)


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Acts 10:9

9. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

(Peter prayed in private)
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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You quote one article where some obnoxious priest createing problems and use it to justify your generalized hatred of religion.

You are just a common variety bigot.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Burn the witch!! Ooh, er.. em... I mean RACIST!!! Em, er, no I mean.... er...

*backs out of the room*
Trac
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Yes, we are. We´re speaking up against the Iraqi Baathist leftovers in Iraq right now and dying for it. Just because the UN had its hand in Saddam´s cookie jar and didn´t want the U.S. to confiscate that jar doesn´t mean what we´re doing is not right. It is.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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well said 8:38!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Not a bigot at all. I have no problem with freedom of choice of religion for all. I do have a problem when it comes to proselytizing. You don´t have a clue what my beliefs are, nor do you care. I also have a problem with one religion dictating to the rest of us that we should abide by that one religion´s rules - especially when it´s a bunch of people who don´t follow their own religious book religiously! (Example: Do all the christian gals pray with their heads covered like it says in Corinthians? Hell no!) So...you want us to follow your versions of religion as you pick and choose from the so called ´perfect book´. It´s infuriating how fundamentalists refuse to see their own hypocrisy. (How many of them are employed as moneylenders? Many!)
Matrix
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Evolution is a theory that relies on the improvements or adaptations of animals and plants improving the world, making it a better more diverse place, yet most improvements made by mankind have not benefited nature at all. The rich and powerful, who bank roll most of the scientific grants, do not want people who are enslaved by their systems of control, to "evolve", but would rather have them to be dependent on them, not able to adapt on their own to the constant changes they are constantly subjecting them too. If a small minority can dictate who gets scientific funding and who does not, is that not a type of extremism also that limits freedom of thought and the expansion of democratic ideals?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Why push for school prayer when Jesus said to pray alone?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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"Just because the UN had its hand in Saddam´s cookie jar and didn´t want the U.S. to confiscate that jar doesn´t mean what we´re doing is not right. It is."

There was no God-given mandate to bomb to smithereens a country that was not a threat in any way to us. If any should have been bombed, it should have been the UN, not Iraq.

How can you justify a war that is costing Americans 300 Billion$? What good can come of that! The only ones who profit from this are the corporations that run this country. It isn´t their sons and daughters who are getting killed or maimed for life. Already, more than 2,000 GIs have been killed, with at least 20,000 wounded for a cause not our own. That doesn´t count the suffering and death being perpetrated on the tens of thousands of Iraqis themselves.

You have some notion that, somehow, this war can be justified, but give no reasoning on how.
Trac
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Oh, it´s justified. Watch and learn.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Why push for school prayer when Jesus said to pray alone?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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"Why push for school prayer when Jesus said to pray alone?"

Why not! Prayer never hurt anyone. Those who choose not to pray may exempt themselves. It´s that simple.

When Jesus taught that private prayer was good, he was speaking against the Pharisees, who stood on the street corners praying ALOUD and for long periods of time so that people would think they had an "in" with God. Jesus set them straight on that! He never said a word against group prayer, especially for children. He just told the 12 that they could not do as did the Pharisees, but to pray in private.

Egad, you guys. Get a grip! You don´t want to pray, so don´t. Leave the rest of us alone.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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It´s a cycle. We cannot do anything about it. Like
the weather it will change, although not as
quickly.
yep, mach
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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These are phony religionists--the living dead, blindly marching in lockstep to install the giant fascist pseduo-patriotic/religious concentration camp Amerika. These dopes wouldn´t know God if He kicked their asses sideways ´til Sunday....which He will. These suckers serve the devil and don´t even know it.
Just watch the programmed, knee-jerk, foaming at the mouth defense mech kick-in now . . . .
Like robots, triggered droids doing their horned master´s bidding.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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You said:

"The same thing is starting to happen over here in Britain too. Laws that erode our freedoms, "


Got a news flash for you. It isn´t religious people taking away all the freedoms, it is the LEFTISTS, MARXISTS, COMMUNISTS, DEMOCRATS, LIBERALS.

Right? Aren´t they the ones that say you can´t say what´s on your mind?

It´s called PC, Political Correctness, another word for MindspeaK.

They want to control everything you do, buy, say, think.

And if you don´t agree, go to jail, take away the bank account, confiscate the house.


Homosexuals can stand around in crowds and spit at people like Mel Gibson. Cops do nothing. PC.

Say one word against them, go to jail. Lose your job. PC.

The "fundalmentalism" you are so afraid of is a REACTION against the loss of our freedoms that the Leftists and Liberals have taken away.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
The only people I have ever met who follow the teachings of Christ are Buddhists.

Christians follow anything but.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Funny how the left twists everything.

The quote that starts out this thread was written against the Nazis.

Because the Nazis were the government taking away everyone´s rights, then took away the people.

The lament is that the Christians did nothing until it turned against them and it was too late.

So, now, Christians ARE standing up to fight against it.

And the leftists hate that. They have been found out, and hypocrites that they are, they use a CHRISTIAN lament to create hate against Christians.


They make it ILLEGAL to hate anyone they favor.

But they use every trick in the book to make as many people as possible HATE Christians or Conservatives.

Sneaky sneaky. Prison awaits anyone who thinks outside their little box.
Visitor
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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AC I find your original post thoughtful and a sign of one who can SEE BEYOND their own little sphere of "self". MATURE is the keyword here. Unfortunately there are still many who need a SOURCE outside of themselves upon which they can place the responsibility for their own lives - actions - someone to praise when things go their way - and someone to BLAME when they do not.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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All Religions might have a piece of the Truth but they do not hold the WHOLE TRUTH. Consequently Religions breed the I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG mentality and further SEPARATION.
WI Wild Man
12/08/2005 10:10 AM
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Re: The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance
Required reading for fundamentalist Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. of US ancestry is Thomas Pain’s “Age of Reason”. Once read, we’ll discuss hearsay based so called "sacred scriptures."





GLP