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Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 432008
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05/20/2009 12:57 PM
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Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Is this as close to a general resurrection as Christians will ever see?

No matter how many times I have quoted John 14: 13 -14: “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” Christians turn a deaf ear and simply ignore Jesus’ promise of help. Yet Christians are convinced they will go to Heaven and have salvation when Jesus NEVER gave a plan of salvation in the Synoptic Gospels and one is hard pressed to even find one in the Gospel of John.

However, despite this very vague and strange soteriology of Jesus, Christians are convince they will go to Heaven and they are equally convinced the unsaved will go to Hell.

But just how many lies of Jesus and the Gospels can simply be ignored and Christians can still be confident that everything Jesus states is true?!

So here is my challenge to the Christian community: Since the Gospel of John is generally consider the last Gospel written and contains a more fully developed Christology (such as the famous verse of John 3:16), I want any Christian to prove that neither Jesus nor the Gospel writers are pathological liars.

Lets start with one verse from John’s Gospel and I want any Christian to prove this statement of Jesus is true and correct based on the Canonical 66 book Biblical text.

“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8: 44

A. Please prove from the Biblical text where Satan EVER killed or murdered anyone!

B. Please prove from the Biblical text where Satan EVER told a lie!

Christians, if Jesus is everything you claim he is (God in flesh, the living sinless Word of Truth and the only hope for eternal salvation) this should be easy for you to do.

On the other hand, if you can't give direct proof text examples, how can you trust anything Jesus or the Gospels text tell you? How can you remain a Christian in spite of known Biblical lies?

Get your priest or preacher involved here. Tell him to earn his money!
panthera~onca

User ID: 682595
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05/20/2009 01:10 PM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Well, the way I see it is that a person has 4 choices......

about their opinion on Jesus.....

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is a liar
3. Jesus is insane
4. Jesus never existed

If Jesus is God and you don't believe it He is still God.

If Jesus is a liar, insane, or never existed then he doesn't matter at all......

and therefore irrelevant to you.

Pretty simple.

Last Edited by panthera~onca on 05/20/2009 01:10 PM
No matter how high the throne one sits on, one sits on one's bottom.

*
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2022 10:45 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
bump
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2022 10:58 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
So here is my challenge to the Christian community: Since the Gospel of John is generally consider the last Gospel written and contains a more fully developed Christology (such as the famous verse of John 3:16), I want any Christian to prove that neither Jesus nor the Gospel writers are pathological liars.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 432008

God cannot lie.

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Numbers 23:19

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Titus 1:2

that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
Hebrews 6:18


Knowing God cannot lie, we also know that the Bible was penned by men moved by the Holy Spirit. Because of this, down to the very letter of the original text, we know the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
2 Timothy 3:16

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:21


And lastly, we know Christ Jesus is the word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:1-3

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2022 10:59 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)

Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.
-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

"In examining the evidence of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction. There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin. "There is no other entrance," says Lord Bacon, "to the kingdom of man, which is founded in the sciences, than to the kingdom of heaven, into which no one can enter but in the character of a little child." The docility which true philosophy requires of her disciples is not a spirit of servility, or the surrender of the reason and judgment to whatsoever the teacher may inculcate; but it is a mind free from all pride of opinion, not hostile to the truth sought for, willing to pursue the inquiry, and impartiality to weigh the arguments and evidence, and to acquiesce in the judgment of right reason. The investigation, moreover, should be pursued with the serious earnestness which becomes the greatness of the subject--a subject fraught with such momentous consequences to man. It should be pursued as in the presence of God, and under the solemn sanctions created by a lively sense of his omniscience, and of our accountability to him for the right use of the faculties which he has bestowed.

In requiring this candor and simplicity of mind in those who would investigate the truth of our religion, Christianity demands nothing more than is readily conceded to every branch of human science. All these have their data, and their axioms; and Christianity, too, has her first principles, the admission of which is essential to any real progress in knowledge. "Christianity," says Bishop Wilson, "inscribes on the portal of her dominion 'Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in nowise enter therein.' Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and headstrong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man's responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer."

The present design, however, is not to enter upon any general examination of the evidences upon any general examination of the evidences of Christianity, but to confine the inquiry to the testimony of the Four Evangelists, bringing their narratives to the tests to which other evidence is subjected in human tribunals. The foundation of our religion is a basis of fact--the fact of the birth, ministry, miracles, death, resurrection by the Evangelists as having actually occurred, within their own personal knowledge. Our religion, then, rests on the credit due to these witnesses. Are they worthy of implicit belief, in the matters which they relate? This is the question, in all human tribunals, in regard to persons testifying before them; and we propose to test the veracity of these witnesses, by the same rules and means which are there employed. The importance of the facts testified, and their relations to the affairs of the soul, and the life to come, can make no difference in the principles or the mode of weighing the evidence. It is still the evidence of matters of fact, capable of being seen and known and related, as well by one man as by another. And if the testimony of the Evangelist, supposing it to be relevant and material to the issue in a question of property or of personal right, between man and man, in a court of justice, ought to be believed and have weight; then, upon the like principles, it ought to receive our entire credit here. But if, on the other hand, we should be justified in rejecting it, if there testified on oath, then, supposing our rules of evidence to be sound, we may be excused if we hesitate elsewhere to give it credence..."

[link to law2.umkc.edu]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78717667


"...There are other internal marks of truth in the narratives of the evangelists, which, however, need here be only alluded to, as they have been treaded with great fullness and force by able writers, whose works are familiar to all. Among these may be mentioned the nakedness of the narratives; the absence of all parade by the writers about their own integrity, of all anxiety to be believed, or to impress others with a good opinion of themselves or their cause, of all marks of wonder, or of desire to excite astonishment at the greatness of the events they record, and of all appearance of design to exalt their Master. On the contrary, there is apparently the most perfect indifference on their part, whether they are believed or not; or rather, the evident consciousness that they are recording events well known to all, in their own country and times, and undoubtedly to be believed, like any other matter of public history, by readers in all other countries and ages. It is worthy, too, of especial observation, that thought the evangelists record unparalleled sufferings and cruel death of their beloved Lord, and this too, by hands and with the consenting voices of those on whom he had conferred the greatest benefits, and their own persecutions and dangers, yet they have bestowed no epithets of harshness or even of just censure on the authors of all this wickedness, but have everywhere left the plain and unencumbered narrative to speak for itself, and the reader to pronounce his own sentence of condemnation; like true witnesses, who have nothing to gain or to lose by the event of the cause, they state the facts, and leave them to their fate. Their simplicity and artlessness, also, should not pass unnoticed, in readily stating even those things most disparaging to their dullness of apprehension of this teachings, their strives for preeminence, their inclination to call fire from heaven upon their enemies, their desertion of their Lord in his hour of extreme peril; these and many other incidents tending directly to their own dishonor, are nevertheless set down with all the directness and sincerity of truth, as by men writing under the deepest sense of responsibility to God. Some of the more prominent instances of this class of proofs will be noticed hereafter, in their proper places, in the narratives themselves.

Lastly, the great character they have portrayed is perfect. It is the character of a sinless Being; of one supremely wise and supremely good. It exhibits no error, no sinister intention, no imprudence, no ignorance, no evil passion, no impatience; in a word, no fault; but all is perfect uprightness, innocence, wisdom, goodness and truth. The mind of man has never conceived the idea of such a character, even for his gods; nor has history or poetry shadowed it forth. The doctrines and precepts of Jesus are in strict accordance with the attributes of God, agreeably to the most exalted idea which we can form of them, either from reason or from revelation. They are strikingly adapted to the capacity of mankind, and yet are delivered with a simplicity and majesty wholly divine. He spake as never man spake. He spake with authority; yet addressed himself to the reason and the understanding of men; and he spake with wisdom, which men could neither gainsay nor resist. In his private life, he exhibits a character not merely of strict justice, but of flowing benignity. He is temperate, without austerity; his meekness and humility are signal; his patience is invincible; truth and sincerity illustrate his whole conduct; every one of his virtues is regulated by consummate prudence; and he both wins the love of his friends, and extorts the wonder and admiration of his enemies. He is represented in very variety of situation in life, from the height of worldly grandeur, amid the acclamations of an admiring multitude, to the deepest abyss of human degradation and woe, apparently deserted of God and man. Yet everywhere he is the same; displaying a character of unearthly perfection, symmetrical in all its proportions, and encircled with splendor more than human. Either the men of Galilee were men of superlative wisdom, and extensive knowledge and experience, and of deeper skill in the arts of deception, than any and all others, before or after them, or they have truly stated the astonishing things which they saw and heard."


[link to law2.umkc.edu]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78717667
Pabamus V

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12/15/2022 11:01 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Blasphemer
I don’t care about your pronouns.
Redacted Dodger007

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12/15/2022 11:09 AM

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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Well, the way I see it is that a person has 4 choices......

about their opinion on Jesus.....

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is a liar
3. Jesus is insane
4. Jesus never existed

If Jesus is God and you don't believe it He is still God.

If Jesus is a liar, insane, or never existed then he doesn't matter at all......

and therefore irrelevant to you.

Pretty simple.
 Quoting: panthera~onca


Sounds a lot like CS Lewis, in his book “ Mere Christianity”

an atheist who chose to convert to Christianity after many debates with colleagues like Tolkein, and after the death of his wife

[link to parade.com (secure)]
You can count on America to do the right thing after exhausting every other alternative."
Winston Churchill
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2022 11:26 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
No.
seekergeek

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12/15/2022 11:26 AM
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Re: Was Jesus a Pathological Liar?
Is this as close to a general resurrection as Christians will ever see?

No matter how many times I have quoted John 14: 13 -14: “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” Christians turn a deaf ear and simply ignore Jesus’ promise of help. Yet Christians are convinced they will go to Heaven and have salvation when Jesus NEVER gave a plan of salvation in the Synoptic Gospels and one is hard pressed to even find one in the Gospel of John.

However, despite this very vague and strange soteriology of Jesus, Christians are convince they will go to Heaven and they are equally convinced the unsaved will go to Hell.

But just how many lies of Jesus and the Gospels can simply be ignored and Christians can still be confident that everything Jesus states is true?!

So here is my challenge to the Christian community: Since the Gospel of John is generally consider the last Gospel written and contains a more fully developed Christology (such as the famous verse of John 3:16), I want any Christian to prove that neither Jesus nor the Gospel writers are pathological liars.

Lets start with one verse from John’s Gospel and I want any Christian to prove this statement of Jesus is true and correct based on the Canonical 66 book Biblical text.

“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8: 44

A. Please prove from the Biblical text where Satan EVER killed or murdered anyone!

B. Please prove from the Biblical text where Satan EVER told a lie!

Christians, if Jesus is everything you claim he is (God in flesh, the living sinless Word of Truth and the only hope for eternal salvation) this should be easy for you to do.

On the other hand, if you can't give direct proof text examples, how can you trust anything Jesus or the Gospels text tell you? How can you remain a Christian in spite of known Biblical lies?

Get your priest or preacher involved here. Tell him to earn his money!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 432008


All of the answers to your questions are found in Genesis 3.
God told man that if he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die.
The serpent told Eve you will not die, but your eyes will be open and you will know good and evil the same as God.
It is assumed that the serpent is the devil, or doing the work of the devil.
After they eat the fruit, they are kicked out of the garden and lose their immortality and access to the tree of life.
So every death of every human can be attributed to the devil getting humans to believe they know the difference between good and evil.
The knowledge of good and evil is what causes people to kill each other and perform atrocities.
Anyone who believes they can identify someone or something as good or evil is following the serpent, or can be called a child of the devil.
So the answer to B "lying" is when he told Eve that "your eyes will be open and you will know good and evil as God" is a lie.
The answer to A is the same section, because the direct result of eating the fruit was death.
If a drug dealer sells someone a drug that kills them, that dealer is charged with murder.
So the serpent(Satan) convincing people to partake in the fruit of knowledge of good and evil by lying, caused all death.
It can be taken further, and humanities fall and death from the fruit can be seen as humans becoming dead to God, or out of his presence.
You have to understand the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is a contagious mental illness that causes delusions.
This is why God told his tribe they should not have a judge or king, the act of honest and fair judgement is only possible by God.
People are supposed to follow simple rules, and not to try to interpret things as good and evil.
No two people can see good and evil the same, and this is the only necessary indication that it is a delusion.
The fact that good and evil exist only in the mind, and no two people see it the same proves that the serpent(Satan, the Devil) was lying. Peoples eyes are not open as Gods, because if everyone could see as God, there would be no conflict and world peace would be the natural state.
For further evidence contemplate nudity.
All are born naked, if a person is not taught that nakedness is evil, they do not wear clothes unless they are cold, or for decoration.
In Genesis after they eat the fruit, God asks "who told you you were naked?".
God had no problem with them being naked, but they did, so they did not know good and evil as God.
This is further proof the serpent(Satan) lied.





GLP