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"Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"

 
Donna
02/14/2005 01:13 PM
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"Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
No one has addressed Jesusī words to the churches in the book of the Revelation. I believe they will show that Paul was a deceiver: My comments will be in parantheses. Eerything else was been taken from other sources. If you find me wrong, please correct me. (smile) It was difficult finding who the apostles were for each church, so I welcome any added input. I had to take excerpts from many sites to find the information I put forth here. Therefore, that is why I didnīt enclude links. If you want to do search for it, itīs out there. This is a long read, but well worth the time imo, if only to prove me wrong (smile)


High points that prove Paul was a deceiver:

1. Jesus mentioned false apostles...I believe Paul and his followers the false apostles. Paul said they didnīt accept his message in Asia.

2. Paul was an Gnostic....Gnostics believed a revelation superceeded all else for the salvation of souls. Antipas, was opposed to Gnosticism, and paid for it with his life and Jesus commended him in the letter to Pergamus.

3. The two churches that received no condemnation from Jesus were the two churches that Paul did not teach.

.
All of the churches were in Asia.

EPHESUS:

He commended them for: their labour, patience and they could not bear them which were evil, and tried them which say they are APOSTLES and are not, and hast found them liars...and they hated the deeds of the Nicolaitians.

Who were the false apostles? We have record of Paul saying to be an apostle to the Ephesians. "Paul, an apostle of Yeshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus," Ephesians 1:1 NKJV . We have no record of anyone else claiming to be an apostle to anyone anywhere, not even to the Ephesians. . Ephesus is the only church of the seven listed in Revelation, that we have record of Paul claiming to be an apostle to.Asia! All of them! Rejecting Paul! And when he says, "This you know", it sounds like this must have been relatively common knowledge at that time. Asia! The very place that Yeshua told John to write, where his seven churches were! And they were alive, and obviously had been established for some time. Again, notice that Paul did not say that Asia had rejected Yeshua. Obviously they hadnīt rejected Yeshua if there were thriving churches there that Yeshua wanted to address through John. Instead Paul said that all Asia had rejected him personally! This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15

Let me reiterate this picture again and try to grasp the profound significance of it. Here we have in the book of Revelation the words of Yeshua commending the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be his apostle. While Paul, the only person anywhere (other than the twelve original apostles) at that time to have gone on record claiming to be an apostle, we know has made this very claim to this same Ephesian church. At the same time, Paul laments himself of the fact that he has been rejected by them! How could it NOT be Paul and his associates that Yeshua had commended the Ephesian church for rejecting? It really couldnītī be more simple. Here, one more time, is the equation in its simplest form.


Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an apostle of Yeshua"

The Ephesians to Paul: "No youīre not."

Yeshua to the Ephesians: "Well done!"

This by itself, should be more than enough reason to raise serious question about Paul. Then, when we add to this the rest of the evidence against him and his doctrine, (more to come) we have more than enough reason to do as the Ephesian church and convict Paul of the crime of false impersonation of an apostle!


LEFT THEIR FIRST LOVE:

What He had against them: They left their first love By looking in Johnīs other writings, we can let the scriptures interpret themselves. John says in 2 John 1:5-6, "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it." So the first love is to love one another and follow Godīs commandments. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments ..." (1 John 5:3).


His recommendation: Repent and do the first works.

What would happen if they didnīt: I will come quickly and remove their candlestick, except they repent.

(Candlesticks referred to the leaders of the church, I think. Could that have been why Paul was removed from the church of Ephesus and had to leave Asia?) . Paul and his doctrine had troubles being accepted in Ephesus. "This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15


"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the NINCOLATIANS, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)

What was the doctrine of the Nicolaitians? The Nicolaitan: When our Lord Jesus Christ walked among men, He taught His disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, whom He denounced as hypocrites. With them He classed the chief priests and officials of the temple, together with the recognized teachers, (scribes, or "professors" Ferrar Fenton Translation) in the Synagogues. He declared they had so corrupted the truth of God, which they were supposed to preach, with the doctrines and ordinances of men, that the truth, as originally given, was no longer with them.

Nicolaitanes, the full meaning of which, in its native tongue and in its ecclesiastical setting, is that the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the laiton -- the laity -- until they have been compelled to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates:

(Can we find in the bible anyone who advocated these teaching? (maybe Paul?) Those that know the bible better than I can you find any of Jesus Diciples promoting this docrine of the Nicolaitians? I agree that the below scriptures are inconclusive in damning the writings of Paul, but I found very little evidence of the doctrine of the Nicolaitians in the teachings of Jesus, James, Peter and John. Am I being one sided here? Maybe some of you can find something different than I have found).


(Are these the deeds of the Nicolaitians? : "We beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; and to esteem them very highly in love for their workīs sake. And be at peace among yourselves," (I Thessalonians 5:12-13). "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine," (ITimothy 5:17). 1 Corr 12: 28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers. Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and some teachers. "The elders which are among you exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [not rulership] thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over Godīs heritage, but being ensamples to the flock," (I Peter 5:1-3). )

"If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema, Council of Trent (trans) XXIII 6." (Century Dictionary.)-

(As a side note: It is well to remember where the bible originated...from the Council of Nicea and the Cathoic church for the purpose of creating a state religion for Canstantine. Webster defines the word "episcopal" as "the power of government, belonging to, or invested in, bishops or prelates. Government of the church by bishops." Also "In episcopacy, the order of bishops is superior to the other clergy, and has exclusive power to confer orders.")

We see in the history of the church of Ephesus that the apostle John started the first church, and Paul came later.
Though Paul was not the first to bring Christianity to Ephesus, for Jews had long lived there A Christian church was founded there and flourished, and one of its first leaders was the apostle John. During the 1st century the early Torah-observant Messianic Jewish Christians were called “Ebionites” (and the Ebionites existed alongside the early New Testament Church in Jerusalem, which was labeled by the Jews as “the sect of the Nazarenes under the apostle JOHN, HEADQUARTERED IN EPHESUS.

Many of the churches that arose in Asia Minor were Judeo-Christian in nature and practice. These churches kept the Sabbath, Holy Day observances, and kept the Passover observance on the 13th/14th Nisan (once a year with a foot-washing ceremony and partaking of the bread and wine, mirroring the last Passover Jesus observed with his disciples just prior to his crucifixion)(the primary example of this is that of the apostle John and his disciple Polycarp, and Polycarp’s disciple, Policrates--who set the pace or doctrinal tone for these Quartodeciman churches in Asia Minor).

The basic cornerstone of the belief system of this 4th category (both for the Torah-observant Messianic Jewish Christians and the Sabbatarian Gentile part of the body of Christ) is their literal interpretation of Matthew 5:17-19, which leads to their subsequent belief that the whole 10 Commandment Law of God is still in force for Christians--including and especially the 4th Commandment or the Sabbath Commandment. This includes for some Sabbatarian branches the Holy Day observances as well (seeing that the Sabbath command is the first commanded Holy Day listed in Leviticus 23 {vs. 1-3}, where all the Holy Day commands are found {Leviticus 23:1-44}.) New covenant Christians (Gentile) believe that as a part of being in the new covenant, the whole Old Testament Law, or Torah, has been superceded by the new covenant, and that the Sabbath Commands and Holy Days have been transformed to their higher spiritual intent with this spiritual intent being lived in us by the Holy Spirit, as brought out in Hebrews 4 and 8 by Paul and so that their physical observance was deemed no longer necessary. But to many of those in this 4th category, the Sabbath and Holy Day commands are inseparable, and deemed very necessary as an integral part of observing God’s 10 Commandment Law.

to recap, what should we learn from the histories in this history section of this website? 1. How they started out, hot and on fire spiritually. 2. What happened to cool them down. a. letting in the standards of the world. b. born-again members replaced by ‘born-into’ the church members. (There is a “c.” level of development that usually contributes to the fire going dim or out in a denomination as well. It is the establishment of a bureaucratic governmental structure within a denomination.)



SMYRNA:

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

The only two churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, needed no rebuke. These same two, and only these, were warned to expect persecution.
(note..In my searching,these are the only two churches that the apostle John was the teacher of directly or indirectly and Paul seemed to have no affilication with these two churches. If you find evidence to the contrary, plase correce me)

The leader was Polycarp, a direct disciple of the apostle John, the last person alive to be personally taught by an apostle. And the church he pastored is the church at Smyrna. Polycarp was a disciple of John and that John had appointed him bishop of Smyrna. Polycarp was the last of those acquainted personally with the disciples of Jesus and was instructed by them.






PERGAMUM



Commends them for:
They remained true to His name. They did not renounce their faith inJesus, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city--where Satan lives.


What Jesus has against them:

They have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, (eating food sacrificed to idols" and by committing sexual immorality. Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.


Pergamum means "thoroughly married." It represents the period of church history when the church became married to the world.


The warning to this church is about those who allowed the teaching of Balaam. This church was also corrupted by the teaching of the Nicolaitans. (church clerics who lorded it over the people) .

The doctrine of Balaam that corrupted these believers: (Eat things sacrificed unto idols,ī thus bringing into contact with idolatry and Sexual sin of fornication, corrupting their moral purity).
The Nicolaitans doctrine came form Nicolas, one of the seven men chosen to oversee the distribution of food in Acts 6. The Nicolaitans taught that Christians could participate in pagan orgies. They seduced the church with immorality and idolatry." The Nicolaitans propagated that Christians were free to live a licentious lifestyle. They freely partook in pagan festivities and indulged themselves in all sorts of sexual immorality. Most likely, the church at Pergamum was founded during Paul’s ministry in Ephesus, when the gospel went out from there to be preached throughout the province of Asia (Acts 19:10)."

( Satanīs seat was in Pergamum. Antipas, whom Jesus commended as His faithful servant fought against the Agnostics, and paid for it with his life. So we must assume this is what Jesus meant when He referred to it as the home of the synagogue of Satan, and when the comment about those who say they are Jews and are not.. Antipas was specifically mentioned by Jesus as His faithful maytre...Antipas fought against the gnostics.)

Definiton of gnosticism:
The doctrine of salvation by knowledge . It is markedly peculiar to Gnosticism that it places the salvation of the soul merely in the possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge. They believed this knowledge made them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from others. Gnosticism was considered mostly a corruption of Christianity, The more these origins are studied, the farther they seem to recede in the past.(Pharisees maybe? Gnosticism was considered mostly a corruption of Christianity,

Another definition: What is Gnosticism? The Gnostics claims to have special direct revelation superior to the Apostles themselves. Secret teachings are given to them by God directly (does this remind you of Paul? Paul was a a gnostic! He believed that his revelation superseeded the word of Jesus, and His dicpiles, Peter, James and John.) If you want to see examples of Paulīs disregard for the apostles wrods, read the link below:
[link to www.justgivemethetruth.com]



THYATIRA

Their deeds are love, faith, servace and preserevera

nce, and they are now doing more than they did at first.

What he hold against them:: They tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

What He will do if they donīt repent: He will cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultry with her into tribulation . He will kill her children with death. He will give everyone of them according to their works.


Jesus says to the rest of the church: "Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not known the depth of Satan, as they speak *(so-called deep secrets) I will not impose any other burden on you: Only hold on to what you have until I come".



*This was an interpretion of the depths of Satan)

The church of Thyratira was founded by John the apostle and formed either directly or inderectly by Paul.



SARDIS:

Jesus says, I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard

The church of Sardis was founded by John the apostle and formed either directly or inderectly by Paul.



PHILADELPHIA
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.



John is believed to have resided in Ephesus and to have used the city as a base for his pastoral work. He was very familiar with all the cities in the region

Thus the doctrinal background not from Paul, but from the twelve apostles of the circumcision, from their headquarters in Jerusalem. Scriptural evidence of this is in Hebrews and First Peter and the historical evidence of Flavius Josephus.



Laodicea

Their faults: neither hot nor cold but luke warm


The name Laodicea means "rule of the people."

Revelation chapter 3 is not the first time the name "Laodicea" appears in scripture. Just to the Southeast of the city of Laodicea, probably within ten miles, was the church of Colosse, to whom Paul wrote the epistle of Colossians in about 63 AD. In that letter Paul makes mention of a church in Laodicea. "For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:1-3).

Also in Colossians 4:13-16 Paul says, "For I bear him (Epaphras) record, that he hath a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis. Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea."

So we see that the church was luke warm...they have received no good words from Jesus. And we see that Paul must have been their instructor
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Wrong-- was Peter also deceived? Peter addresses Paul specifically in 1 Peter I believe.

The Lord is not the author of confusion. People spreading junk like this is typical of satan- trying to cause doubt and confusion about Godīs Word.

Revelation was also written after the other books-- after Paul had been martyred.

Paul addressed as well issues with some of these churches- that were the points of many of his letters. Whether the individual churches took his correction seriously or not would be another topic, maybe covered by an early historian.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Paul was NOT a deceiver. read your bible carefully.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Oh Yeah! You are on target! Letīs follow Jesus. Let me post this as a complement to you analysis.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:25)

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever (John 8:34-35)

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.(rom. 4:2-5) (If you sin it doesnīt matter because you are under grace, but if yo do the works of the law you are the only sinner according to Paul)

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abrahamīs children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (John 8:39-40)

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (eph 2:14-15)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat. 5:17-19)

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 cor.6:12)

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Mat 5:29)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal. 5:4)

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mat:19-17)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom 3:28)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Mat. 16:27)

Paul also teached some new and surprising doctrines.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (Gal. 5:2)

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. (1 Cor. 11:4-6)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 tim. 11:12)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. (1 cor. 14:34-37) (I havenīt read this commandment in the law. Doesnīt say Paul that we must not follow the Law)

Paul also says that he is the father and the son:

For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (1 Cor 4:15)

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my motherīs womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (gal. 1:15-16)

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. (Mat. 23:9)

We must seek what Jesus taught and not what Paul taught, because paul contradict Jesus.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32)

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (rev 2:2)

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (rom 3:7)

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. (2 cor 12:16)
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
The Bible itself is the Deciever.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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There is no need to address this absurd allegation.

The OP has an eclectic belief sytem which permits her to choose which portion of scripure is to be melded with heathen constructs.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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op is double agent
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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absurd, unreasonable

inconsistent with reason or logic or common sense
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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this like the sacrifice thread are donna doctrine.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Nothwithstanding any objections by the OP to the contrary, she has already made her decision to believe in the eclectic fashion and nothing is going to persuade her otherwise.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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her choice to rip the bible to pieces...her responsibility...
Donna
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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You guys are fast readers! (smile)

Donna
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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why should i read something of which i KNOW is not true? for me it is 100% sure that Paul was NOT a deceiver. so no room for statements otherwise.
star gazer
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Interesting....spock


Whatīs even more interesting is the hostility of some of the responding posts. Hmmm...judgemental hostitlity is in direct conflict with the love that Jesus taught.
smile_hear
Dee
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
It seems easier to have opinions.

I see no one here so far who has addressed the legitimacy the the issues she raised...
On any point. Why NOT? I am curious myself and see nothing wrong at all in what Donna asks.

I really donīt. Havenīt we all been around the block enough to know the estabishment lies.

I am not saying the whole of the Bible is in error but portions maybe and it isnīt whimisical chosing as someone else has offered but hard and earnest study.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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banned2

This is what Paul does to his followers.
worshiplmao
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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stargazer, youīre right about the hostilities, my apologies donna.

dee, do a google, thereīs plenty of material on the net about this issue.

i myself had enough of discussions about paul, over three months someone starts again and again and again.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Judgementalism is actually a fine thing for it permits the discriminating person to dispense with nonsense that claims one plus one equals anything except two.

This thread is absurd for this aproximate reason. But donīt take my word for it. Waste some time here and learn futility.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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*This is what Paul does to his followers.*

no, this is what people themselves choose to do...
Prudence
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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applause

The Essene Church of Christ would agree with you for the most part.

Yahshua (Jesus) or Paul? (Article by Rev. Brother Nazariah

[link to www.essene.org]

Here is the document they consider to be the valid new testament. "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve"
[link to www.thenazareneway.com]

Much of Paulīs writting can be found in this document. Who copied who?

Thomas Jefferson would agree too.
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus" -- Thomas Jefferson

Also the book "Bible Fraud" mentions an entry in the Jewish Talmed that says Paul corrupted the teachings of Jesus.
star gazer
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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I find it intriguing because even as a child studying the Bible, Iīve had a problem with some of Paulīs teachings as they seem to be in conflict with Jesus.

And, now that you mention it - did Jesus ever say anything about replacing Judas with another Apostle?scratching
Donna
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
AC 2:05 I accept your apology. After all, for 66 years, I believed as you believe...and NO ONE could have convinced me to listen during all of that time.

One comfirmation to me that this study of of the Holy Spirit is this: When I first started this study, the right things seemed to come into my mind on what to search for. When I started this study, Idid not know that what I would find would convince me that Paul was a deceiver.

When I snapped at Kay for her posts, the Holy Spirit made me feel uneasy...I knew I was not showing the love that Jesus said to show. From then on, it seemed that nothing I put in the search engine helped me in my study.

After I posted the apology to Kay, it seemed like the right things came into my mind to search for..for instance, what Gnotics believed in. From then on, the study went smoothly.

Donna
Prudence
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
well said star gazer

interesting indeed.

scratching
leia
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
since i was a little girl my father has had this saying . . .

"said peter to paul - brother - thatīs all. thatīs all."
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
Why do I get the feeling Donna is Lester?
leia
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
i wouldnīt know donna from peter or lester from paul . . .

how DO yīall keep track?
Donna
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
>>>And, now that you mention it - did Jesus ever say anything about replacing Judas with another Apostle?>>>

Star Gazer, I donīt believe Jesus did, however, Paul was not a replactment for Judas. Mattias (sp) was the replacement for Judas, per the diciples.

I too wonder all of my life why Pauls doctrine had so much variance with Jesusī and later on in the NT, with James, Peter, and Johnīs. And the letters to the churches.....well they really had me stumped, as they did not sound like the "grace" that paul preached.

Dee, thanks for your support of my right to "seek"ī the truth.
Donna
star gazer
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
Since I have had uneasiness and questions about certain portions of the New Testament and translations - I have chosen to stick with exactly what Jesus himself taught and not any of his followers interpretations. When I read HIS words, there is no doubt.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
For those who worship the KJB rather than God, let me say you that the Bible, and concretely the New Testament has been manipulated. They have added things, supressed others. they have mistranslated most passages. The first thing we have to learn is that we must seek God in our hearts. It has been always the same. We must learn to recognise his voice. In the beggining there was not a Bible. Most people didnīt had any scriptures. The people of God knowed what God wanted.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. (Deu 30)

worshiptp
star gazer
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
< Paul was not a replactment for Judas. Mattias (sp) was the replacement for Judas, per the diciples.>

So right! Iīd forgotton about that. So where did Paul get the idea that he was an Apostle?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:11 AM
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Re: "Paul was a deceiver. A Study of the Letters to the 7 churches"
i donīt say that scriptures are not useful. We must read the scriptures every day. Let me recommend you one that was not considered inspired by God by the catholic church.

[link to www.pseudepigrapha.com]


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