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Should California secede?

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 695184
United States
06/04/2009 08:23 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Hmmm...

Pros:
Interesting question. On one hand, everyone in California wouldn't have to pay federal taxes, they get back less in federal funds then other states, and they are the 8th largest economy in the world WITHOUT the rest fo the us.

Cons:
California is sitting on several natural disasters waiting to happen and if the 'Big One' happens, they will BEG the Federal goverment to bail them out.

They have a woefully underdeveloped eletrical grid.

The federal goverment would undoubtedly remove all federal equipment and resources from the state.

California has no effective military and would fall easy prey to anyone with any sort of desire to crush them.

They are completely dependant on cars and have no oil resources and are completely dependant on the refineries in the rest of the US.

In the end, everyone would hurt and nobody would come out ahead.
 Quoting: Bob


Huh? The state is swimming in oil both offshore (largely untaped 20bbl + and onshore. The state is also a major petroleum refining hub. The electric grid is no worse then anywhere else, the "issues" were Enron. I think the premise is silly and premature of this thread, But your statements are "completely" wrong.
anonymous
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06/04/2009 08:24 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
america continues to import uneducated poor who will need many decades of welfare aid programs . at tax payers expense. remember that welfare did not exist until 1930s and then it was a bare mim amount ..... global poor run to america for decades in aid programs.. . retated ankor baby gives the mom a nearly free gov apt til the child dies. Blacks use this program also for lifelong nearly free housing . they say thier child has low IQ . but the kid does not study and fails exams for gov benifits... then the child grows to a preteen and deals drugs with the mom. for secret cash for lifes extras.. . like hair extenions desinger jeans and $150.00 tennis shoes etc. it is a racket and HUD looks the other way .
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2009 08:27 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
OK OP ask yourself if you do away from the fed gov could you support yourselves?

From here it doesn't appear so!



Now Montana and Texas are a different story.
^^^^^

Absolutely! California has:

The most productive agricultural land on earth.

The most advanced technology industry on earth.

The best developed venture capital system on earth.

Many of the finest universities on earth.

And if it seceded, it'd have an extra $100 billion or so a year to play with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 694831


From the rest of the 49 states (or as Obama would say the other 57 states) please let California secede...it is already Mexifornia where would the loss be? Wait, we would lose Pelosi as speaker of the House!!! Now, that I have thought about again, please, please secede it looks like the only way to get rid of Nancy and all the other yoga loving, tofu eating, tree hugging, bleeding heart liberals!! Bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2009 08:29 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
absolutely secede , we can get rid of 30 million citizens right then, your united states citizenship could be revoked.

then we could charge you export/import tarrifs up the ass instead of 75 cents back , you would still pay the same amount and get no cents back.

you fuckdoodles really think you can take on the USN ?

anyone up river would blithely ignore colorado river treaties and just take what they wanted .

same with electricity or anything else .
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 694831
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06/04/2009 11:41 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
I'd imagine California would make necessary resource and defense treaties with its neighboring countries (just as Canada, US, Mexico do today).

Ah, California...

Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/04/2009 11:49 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
To paraphrase Hans Herman Hoppe, the best possible world is one with thousands of tiny, independent states. If you don't like the legal, tax, or regulatory scheme in your country, it is easy to vote with your feet and leave for greener pastures (and easier to find them). This forces nations to compete for citizens.

The worst world is one with only a few dominant states or, worse yet, a single world government.

A large, powerful central government is reason by itself to secede. Today, this should be obvious to any honest, informed person.
The Jurist

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06/04/2009 11:52 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Might as well, it is full of Mexicans now huffy
`
(Be) Divide(ed) and (be) Conquer(ed)...

Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do.

~There is Tranquility in Ignorance, but Servitude is its Partner. —me
~What luck for Rulers that Men do not Think. —Adolf Hitler

:damned: Doom is optional. There is good news abounds.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 12:11 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
OK OP ask yourself if you do away from the fed gov could you support yourselves?

From here it doesn't appear so!



Now Montana and Texas are a different story.


Absolutely! California has:

The most productive agricultural land on earth.

The most advanced technology industry on earth.

The best developed venture capital system on earth.

Many of the finest universities on earth.

And if it seceded, it'd have an extra $100 billion or so a year to play with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 694831



LOL

California has great agricultural land, but nothing nearly as good as the midwest top soil wise.

The technology business is moving to India and China

California's VC community is adequate at best - unimaginative short-term flippers - very few visionaries.

It would not have an extra $100 billion per annum. They are in so much debt because their state legislature only knows how to spend.

California's problems are their own doing.
Bingo Bob
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06/05/2009 03:57 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
Why don't we ever hear about California seceding from the U.S. (Federal Government)? All we ever hear is, will Obama, through his grace and compassion, approve a bailout for California.

That is, will the Feds be kind enough to loan or grant California some fraction of the $100 or billion a year Californians render as tribute to the IRS each year. What do the people of California get in return for their billions in federal taxes (plus the trillions borrowed by the feds in their name)?

If it seceded, California would instantly solve it's budget problems. The question would then be, how to solve it's massive budget surpluses? It would instantly become one of the most prosperous nations on Earth!

Does Cali need the Fed? Or the other way around?

Should California secede????

I've got a better question. Can the rest of us kick California out for all the sick twisted liberal crap laws and regulations that originate there?

Look, I know some nice people in Cali so, I'm not hating on all Californians, but the federal government is not California's problem. California is California's problem. Your overly oppressive regulations and taxes coupled with world leading prolific spending on all maner of socialist programs, completely uncheck illegal immigration, and flat out insane housing costs have bankrupt the state.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 625292


And this is why Cali should secede - because the rest of the US is filled to the brim with idiots.

Uhhh moron - immigration ISN'T A STATE ISSUE.

California's don't want Mexican's flooding across the border, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BORDER CONTROL AND SECURITY.

EVEN WITH the rampant illegal immigrations that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT refuses to do anything about (which is a CAUSE of cali's financial problems) Cali STILL pays out 10's of billions more than it get's back. Where does Cali's tax money go? In large part it funds the welfare and food stamps for the poor southern states like Mississippi, Kentucky, West Virgina, etc. Ironically these states are filled with the same idiots who constantly bash California with all that bullshit "liberal" talk.

Yeah, being the leader in virtually everything is SOOO liberal.

Higher education, health care, technology, agriculture, Hollywood, venture capital, science, military technology, national labs, nuclear technology, tourism revenue.


Does Cali have problems?

Sure it does, but the #1 problem is a FEDERAL issue.

I'm so sick of the uneducated inbred rednecks WHO HAPPILY ACCEPT OUR WELFARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY bashing the state the props up the rest of the country.
Wraithwynd

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06/05/2009 04:14 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
It is the Fed and the Enron Like Fed based companies that put California in this mess.

Our Mess here in California goes back further than the housing crunch, it goes back to deregulation of the power industry then that fiasco with Bush Refusing to bail us out of the Energy "Rolling Black Outs" crises that Enron and others put us in.

But then these companies were buddy buddy with Bush and Company too.

California produces 25% of the USA's food. We only have 10% of the population - that means we could export over half of what we produce.

We produce 20% of the oil here - in California for the whole USA - once again we could export it.

We also are a leader in industries from computer to Hollywood - and a lot in between.

The Fed and the rest of the states have it easy. If the Republic of California elected A president of that Republic, the rest of the USA would be in a world of hurt - not only with a substantial loss in its own National Product, but having to pay far much extra for those things we export without excessive tariffs and surcharges that we would naturally charge another nation.

Yes California should be the one with seceding on the mind. Unlike Texas it has the most to gain.

BTW yeah we are 'sitting' on faults, but what folk don't seem to understand is that the Federal Government (not local or state) is the one that stands in the way of retrofitting for earthquake safety. Federal - not state - governments also stand in the way of our having a secure southern boarder and several other things.

The Feds pay us to not do a lot.

Why? Maybe because the fed wants us to remain subservient and dependent upon its 'aid'. Maybe because if California did strike out on its own the USA would fail, cease to be a super power and would be dominated by the Republic of California in virtually every area from agriculture to scientific research.

Don't be fooled, If California did secede all of the military and navel bases would be ours. So too would a wealth of 'top secret' bases in our mountains and deserts.
Sinkhole list:
Thread: Sinkholes Updated 28 Dec 2010
find a sinkhole, add it to this thread, please.

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15, NKJV).
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 05:02 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
It is the Fed and the Enron Like Fed based companies that put California in this mess.

Our Mess here in California goes back further than the housing crunch, it goes back to deregulation of the power industry then that fiasco with Bush Refusing to bail us out of the Energy "Rolling Black Outs" crises that Enron and others put us in.

But then these companies were buddy buddy with Bush and Company too.

California produces 25% of the USA's food. We only have 10% of the population - that means we could export over half of what we produce.

We produce 20% of the oil here - in California for the whole USA - once again we could export it.

We also are a leader in industries from computer to Hollywood - and a lot in between.

The Fed and the rest of the states have it easy. If the Republic of California elected A president of that Republic, the rest of the USA would be in a world of hurt - not only with a substantial loss in its own National Product, but having to pay far much extra for those things we export without excessive tariffs and surcharges that we would naturally charge another nation.

Yes California should be the one with seceding on the mind. Unlike Texas it has the most to gain.

BTW yeah we are 'sitting' on faults, but what folk don't seem to understand is that the Federal Government (not local or state) is the one that stands in the way of retrofitting for earthquake safety. Federal - not state - governments also stand in the way of our having a secure southern boarder and several other things.

The Feds pay us to not do a lot.

Why? Maybe because the fed wants us to remain subservient and dependent upon its 'aid'. Maybe because if California did strike out on its own the USA would fail, cease to be a super power and would be dominated by the Republic of California in virtually every area from agriculture to scientific research.

Don't be fooled, If California did secede all of the military and navel bases would be ours. So too would a wealth of 'top secret' bases in our mountains and deserts.
 Quoting: Wraithwynd



the world would not end if another media show was never produced again in california. seriously it wouldnt

the oil belongs to multinationals , if you think it wouldnt be secured and or destroyed if push came to shove, you are delusional.

most of america could use a 25 % cut in calories , whats your point again ?

you would own all the military bases ? grats you on a bunch of buildings sans fixtures and a lot of concrete.
you don't get the hardware and personel . or what ? you are going to stop military people who don't want to be in your military from leaving ? steal all their possesions ?
not everyone wants to live in cali you stupid fuck

secret bases ? lol they would be emptied out before the first peons arrived.

go on and secede then . stop one military family from leaving that wants too. I will go re enlist tommorrow to kill californians without a second thought.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 686914
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06/05/2009 05:03 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
Sometimes it's hard to be confronted with forbidden questions. I'd wager you attended public school.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 694831



I saw it as a possibility since 2003 for the coming future. Now it´s being asked.


OMG!

It´s coming true. I thought I would never seen it being asked.
Bingo Bob
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06/05/2009 05:23 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
the world would not end if another media show was never produced again in california. seriously it wouldnt

the oil belongs to multinationals , if you think it wouldnt be secured and or destroyed if push came to shove, you are delusional.

most of america could use a 25 % cut in calories , whats your point again ?

you would own all the military bases ? grats you on a bunch of buildings sans fixtures and a lot of concrete.
you don't get the hardware and personel . or what ? you are going to stop military people who don't want to be in your military from leaving ? steal all their possesions ?
not everyone wants to live in cali you stupid fuck

secret bases ? lol they would be emptied out before the first peons arrived.

go on and secede then . stop one military family from leaving that wants too. I will go re enlist tommorrow to kill californians without a second thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 681616


LOL more proof as to why Cali SHOULD go it's own way.

You rednecks are so funny - you are so patriotic yet you are willing to kill American's at the drop of a hat...or very recently "ex" americans.

25% fewer calories...lol, another good one.

It's not about the TV shows hollywood produces...it's the ECONOMIC growth and nice sum of money they make...not to mention the people they employ.

Destory the oil? Ok Saddam.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 06:10 AM
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Re: Should California secede?
the world would not end if another media show was never produced again in california. seriously it wouldnt

the oil belongs to multinationals , if you think it wouldnt be secured and or destroyed if push came to shove, you are delusional.

most of america could use a 25 % cut in calories , whats your point again ?

you would own all the military bases ? grats you on a bunch of buildings sans fixtures and a lot of concrete.
you don't get the hardware and personel . or what ? you are going to stop military people who don't want to be in your military from leaving ? steal all their possesions ?
not everyone wants to live in cali you stupid fuck

secret bases ? lol they would be emptied out before the first peons arrived.

go on and secede then . stop one military family from leaving that wants too. I will go re enlist tommorrow to kill californians without a second thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 681616


You are a moron.

We produce far much more than just media and food. We are the leader in the US Aerospace industry, we hold most of the scientists - who live here willingly.

We also hold most of the innovators and movers and shakers when it comes to the computer and electronics industry (from cell phones to TVs and everything in between) Again they live here.

We also hold a decent chunk of the scientists and other specialized fields.

Go ahead, I dare you to trace where things and ideas and innovation in your home town came from. You will be amazed by how much stuff California has produced to make your worthless life better.

We possess nuclear power and nuclear weapons. California is one of the key places in the nuclear weapons industry from uranium mines to the missiles that make ICBMS. Meaning we produce fissile material, we can make and DO MAKE nuclear bombs in this state.

We here in California produce double or more that what we need in many areas. I think you need to do a little research before you boil it all down to 25% less calories and media.

As for military resources - I think you need to go back to school and redo American history - particularly the bit called the Civil War. What you think that the Southern States just handed back all of the Federal weapons and supplies when they divorced the union?

No where in my post did I even remotely suggest that folk would be forced to stay here.

Yeah I know you think we are all gay, movie stars or gang bangers. The reality is that with all of the naval, air force, marine and army bases we have become the 'retirement' home for millions of ex military personnel. Folk who were brought out and based here and who decided the weather was so nice to send for their whole family.

The reality is that our immigrant population from the rest of the states is still mostly from the military based people. They CHOOSE to move here.

YOU need us more than we need you. Even in this economic crises created by the Federal Government California is - on its own, the 8th largest economy on earth. Without us the USA would cease to be 'number one' and cease to be the 'richest nation' on earth over night. Why? Because we carry a good chunk of you on our economic back.

Oil, food, nuclear power, military immigrants, there is a lot more to California than the rest of the US appreciates.

You guys pitch a bitch every chance you get calling us losers and a hardship to the rest of you. Boy how you all have that backwards. Once again we produce double our needs and then some in many arenas to carry your fat lazy ass.

When we go down - YOU will come with us. We can survive without you, you can't survive without us.

Sleep well.
How do you propose to take our oil? Fight us?

Think that one through. While it may be true that there are 'few' (relative to the size of our population) legal guns here (without the military bases we would own) we also have the gangs. They alone are estimated to account for 2/3rd of the suspected guns and weaponry in California.

They know this state, they know the urban areas you would need to go through. You think that this long war with Iraq is a sorry mess, imagine trying to get military through the streets of California with all of our gang members.

Yeah they are an asset, not a liability in this scenerio.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 12:02 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
yoda yoda yoda yoda yoda
yoda yoda yoda yoda yoda
yoda yoda yoda yoda yoda
yoda yoda yoda yoda yoda
yoda yoda yoda yoda yoda
Sara-Ka-El

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06/05/2009 12:03 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Maybe Oregon will buy the upper part.
From Cooperate Law to Public Defense

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Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 12:26 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
OP,

You have an obvious agenda here but you're informed. So, a question for you.

Does it make sense to break Cali into several smaller states, in such a way that the net federal tax liability for the group is less than what it is now as one state?

If so, that "tax loss" to the feds goes away overnight and the "net" budget is balanced for the group of states.

It's a bean counters dream to work through this scenario and see if it makes sense or not.

Maybe you're a bean counter? Or are you an internet Napolean?
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 12:36 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Definitely. State independence was meant to be an important part of separation of powers. The goal was to strive for as much state/individual liberty as possible, but like most things people have gotten this backwards too.

We haven't really had states for a long time. We've had servants of the Federal government. The opposite of what was intended. It's no wonder how it all failed.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 12:39 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Definitely. State independence was meant to be an important part of separation of powers. The goal was to strive for as much state/individual liberty as possible, but like most things people have gotten this backwards too.

We haven't really had states for a long time. We've had servants of the Federal government. The opposite of what was intended. It's no wonder how it all failed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 637904


The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X)
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
calian
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06/05/2009 01:28 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
OP,

You have an obvious agenda here but you're informed. So, a question for you.

Does it make sense to break Cali into several smaller states, in such a way that the net federal tax liability for the group is less than what it is now as one state?

If so, that "tax loss" to the feds goes away overnight and the "net" budget is balanced for the group of states.

It's a bean counters dream to work through this scenario and see if it makes sense or not.

Maybe you're a bean counter? Or are you an internet Napolean?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 473983


I am not a bean counter, so I cannot estimate the tax implications of splitting the state.

I do have an agenda, but I also have questions. Does it make sense to have a continent-spanning central government over 300 million people, consuming roughly 30% of their income while burdening them with a host of regulations, far-flung military obligations, along with a Frankenstein central bank?

My agenda, basically, is that people should make arrangements that best serve their needs. Flags and monuments and anthems be damned.
Sara-Ka-El

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06/05/2009 01:30 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Washington has enough money to expand two lanes on each side of the floating bridge. California is just broke.
From Cooperate Law to Public Defense

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In the Instancy of Atomic Love, the Footloose are Dead
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 01:52 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
OP,

You have an obvious agenda here but you're informed. So, a question for you.

Does it make sense to break Cali into several smaller states, in such a way that the net federal tax liability for the group is less than what it is now as one state?

If so, that "tax loss" to the feds goes away overnight and the "net" budget is balanced for the group of states.

It's a bean counters dream to work through this scenario and see if it makes sense or not.

Maybe you're a bean counter? Or are you an internet Napolean?


I am not a bean counter, so I cannot estimate the tax implications of splitting the state.

I do have an agenda, but I also have questions. Does it make sense to have a continent-spanning central government over 300 million people, consuming roughly 30% of their income while burdening them with a host of regulations, far-flung military obligations, along with a Frankenstein central bank?

My agenda, basically, is that people should make arrangements that best serve their needs. Flags and monuments and anthems be damned.
 Quoting: calian 695652


Ah, I'll take that to mean you're a well informed interned Napolean.

Since you can't comment on my question (appreciate the honesty), cut to the chase please - what do YOU propose?
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 01:54 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
CA ain't seceding. The US would go to war if that happened. We need their money. It would be an interesting scenario though.
Bingo Bob
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06/05/2009 03:04 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
CA ain't seceding. The US would go to war if that happened. We need their money. It would be an interesting scenario though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 642502


Thank you for being honest at least.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 03:18 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
California has an abundance of internal issues to address
before entertaining any talk of secession. It could not stand on its own under it's current philosophy excessive
social safety nets financed by punitive taxation.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 03:21 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
CA ain't seceding. The US would go to war if that happened. We need their money. It would be an interesting scenario though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 642502


Well, there you have it! The primary function of the Federal Gov't is to take our money, or murder us.

How much longer will this be accepted by people within the "United States"?



sheeplebah
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 03:30 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
Most of the country wouldn't mind a bit if Cali seceded.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 03:35 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
CA ain't seceding. The US would go to war if that happened. We need their money. It would be an interesting scenario though.


Well, there you have it! The primary function of the Federal Gov't is to take our money, or murder us.

How much longer will this be accepted by people within the "United States"?



sheeplebah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 695652


Well, Cali may well be a net asset to the .gov BUT if they get a bailout, not so much!! Might be better to give it to the Chinese in exchange for debt forgiveness.
Anonymous Coward
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06/05/2009 03:51 PM
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Re: Should California secede?
California secede?


This could become
*** The First Time Ever In Western Civilization ***
That the labor efforts of individuals were applied for the benefit of those that did the labor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Imagine a large community taking care of the large community
what is the average now that is bled off the top of the wealth of the people? About 28 percent?
That is 2.8 times the amount stolen by the ancient priests for their non-existant God so that the priests could live better than everyone else and not have to get their hands dirty.

Well the fed is not God either.


I commend the OP for putting this into peoples minds here


I think it is a fucking awesome Idea

I just wonder how many bullets would fly before it became implemented.
PatrikC325

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06/05/2009 03:53 PM

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Re: Should California secede?
California secede? We should throw them out.