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parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
 United States
6/9/2009 11:23 AM
Report abusive post | parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home
| Quote |
The FBI on Monday showed off a cache of ancient artifacts that a suburban Chicago man apparently hoarded in his home for decades – but no one is quite sure why.
more at link
[link to www.nbcchicago.com]
anyone have additional information? Have I missed a previous post on this? |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 11:41 AM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
anyone?
maybe I'll just keep an eye on this one..... |
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Canuck
User ID: 689976
 Canada
6/9/2009 11:54 AM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Hope you find something more on this Mom.... it sounds interesting......
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud.”
CARL JUNG IN 1919
"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw
Cree proverb:
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.
"Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view) consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy - animals."
-Milan Kundera, "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" (1984) |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 11:57 AM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Hope you find something more on this Mom.... it sounds interesting...... Quoting: Canuck
:-)
One would think, eh?
I hope it's not just swept under the proverbial carpet....there could be some really informationally valuable stuff in this cashe....... |
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childoflight
User ID: 281980
United States
6/9/2009 12:00 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Fascinating! |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 12:04 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Among things found was
a document signed by dictator Benito Mussolini...
Terra cotta figurines from the 4th century B.C. were among items found in the collection.
stolen manuscripts and other antiquities, some dating back to the 4th century B.C.
handwritten books published in the 1700s
More than 1,000 books were found. Letters written by former kings, popes and other members of the Roman Catholic Church were also found
Religious relics were among the approximately 1,600 artifacts stolen from the Italian government
About 3,500 items were recovered, but only 1,600 were identified as stolen from Italy.
While the artifacts were recovered more than two years ago, Monday was the first time the FBI showed them to the public.
hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 697612
United States
6/9/2009 12:04 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
The FBI on Monday showed off a cache of ancient artifacts that a suburban Chicago man apparently hoarded in his home for decades – but no one is quite sure why.
more at link
[ link to www.nbcchicago.com]
anyone have additional information? Have I missed a previous post on this?
Now THAT is simply amazing!!
, |
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gsbltd
User ID: 698164
United States
6/9/2009 12:10 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
It should be noted that when one collects antiquities [as I do] you are at the mercy of the seller regarding the legality of their possession - you can research the seller exhaustively, but unless there is a clear, precise provenance for the items they may very well have been purloined at some point in history. As further proof, the linked story states that 2,000 of the discovered artifacts appeared to be valid parts of this amazing collection.
HAVING SAID THAT: it is very true that you can buy just about anything your heart desires if you have the cash to back up your passions. I have in my modest collection a clay bottle from the time of Moses - 3,000 years old- and it's not particularly rare... 900yr old manuscripts are reasonably available as are Papal documents bearing the signature of a Pope. Remember: most official documents concern piddling little details of governmental actions and as such have no real bearing on historical analysis, but do have an allure for those who cherish mankind's past.
Still, it's quite a story... but it reaffirms the primary focus of some collectors. Many of us don't collect our treasures to parade them around in front of others [I rarely allow others to see my collection]; they are instead preserved in our gentle care as a reverent, personal appreciation of past civilisations. |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 12:20 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
It should be noted that when one collects antiquities [as I do] you are at the mercy of the seller regarding the legality of their possession - you can research the seller exhaustively, but unless there is a clear, precise provenance for the items they may very well have been purloined at some point in history. As further proof, the linked story states that 2,000 of the discovered artifacts appeared to be valid parts of this amazing collection.
HAVING SAID THAT: it is very true that you can buy just about anything your heart desires if you have the cash to back up your passions. I have in my modest collection a clay bottle from the time of Moses - 3,000 years old- and it's not particularly rare... 900yr old manuscripts are reasonably available as are Papal documents bearing the signature of a Pope. Remember: most official documents concern piddling little details of governmental actions and as such have no real bearing on historical analysis, but do have an allure for those who cherish mankind's past.
Still, it's quite a story... but it reaffirms the primary focus of some collectors. Many of us don't collect our treasures to parade them around in front of others [I rarely allow others to see my collection]; they are instead preserved in our gentle care as a reverent, personal appreciation of past civilisations. Quoting: gsbltd
I think you said it best in the bolded, above. For those of us minus the millions or billions to purchase such glimpses into history, it seems a shame that the game of "connecting the dots" seems such a power trip at times.
It would seem to me that the more complete picture of history that todays "great finds" can reveal to us, the less of a chance of misunderstanding at the least, and manipulation at the worst. |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 4:00 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
 |
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Exile 
Cross Country
User ID: 693958
 Australia
6/9/2009 4:27 PM
 | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Hmmm I had a deja vu when I read this thread.
Very interesting.
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty; the realist sees both - Churchill. |
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Andromeda
User ID: 658410
United States
6/9/2009 4:35 PM
 | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Very interesting story, Mom. This guy was a regular guy and had this fantastic collection in his home... Yeah, private collectors buy stolen goods and then hoard them.
Wow. Guess the family is getting a real inheritance. |
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gsbltd
User ID: 699011
United States
6/9/2009 8:10 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
OP: I think perhaps you're laboring under a misconception regarding the collection of antiquities... it doesn't take "millions or billions" of dollars to do so.
Truly: you CAN expect to pay upwards of several thousand dollars for a museum-quality Greek amphora [wine vessal] or similar coveted pieces; but, you can also collect smaller, intimate items that have withstood the tests of time for less than what you'd pay for an average piece of contemporary artwork or jewelry! As with ANY collectables, the pricing structures vary on quality, quantity and demand for any given item. If there are a vast number available the prices can be quite reasonable. How would you women like to wear a Ring worn by a Roman Noblewoman for only $125 [and men: these make GREAT gifts guaranteed to knock the stockings off most wives!]? It's very possible!
EXAMPLE: the common oil lamps that were used 2,000 years ago are so abundant that [during the millenium] I once gave them as Christmas gifts by buying them for about $35/ea in lots of 6 lamps. They were all genuine and legally-purchased from a major NYC dealer, and my recipients dropped their jaws when they opened the packages. and, BTW: those oil lamps STILL WORK [with olive oil and a simple string wick] 2,000 yrs after they were created!!!
I've been able to buy a 3,000 year old terracotta clay bottle from the time of Moses for a little over $100; a bronze Greek slave bracelet from 100 b.c. cost me just $65. Sumerian seals, ancient rings and jewelry - even strings of mummy beads [these are quite common and are frequently restrung with modern silver findings for actual wear] can be had for far less than you'd think!!
NOW: about the allure of collecting this type of thing. There is something indescribable about holding an ancient piece in your hands and marvelling at what other hands touched the piece so many eons ago; and, as you do so, you'll start to wonder what their lives may have been like. How they lived, spoke, dressed or ate. It can be an enormously moving experience!! And, when you consider how these common everyday objects have withstood all of man's wars and aggressions, and all the natural calamnities and disasters, it really makes you realise how special these objects from the distant past truly are.
FINALLY: for those of you who would like to explore this fascinating area of collecting for yourselves, I'll heartily recommend the following company. They have an extensive online catalog of artifacts from all periods and cultures and at VERY GOOD prices... and, you may rest assured they are all AUTHENTIC and LEGALLY OBTAINED. Most are available by auction but may also be purchased outright. I've made several purchases from this firm with absolutely no complaints... I'm merely a satisfied customer.
Just GOOGLE: Sadigh Gallery Ancient Art to begin your personal adventures... and, be prepared to be AMAZED!
Last Edited by gsbltd on 6/10/2009 at 12:41 PM |
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Free Store
User ID: 159127
Canada
6/9/2009 8:19 PM
 | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Ebay for Greek Roman collectibles
I'd like to get those Roman breastplates and helmets |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 693337
United States
6/9/2009 8:21 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
wow, access to so much history and knowlege, I am jealous |
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gsbltd
User ID: 699011
United States
6/9/2009 8:29 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
As I cautioned above: KNOW YOUR DEALER!!! check their references and don't be afraid to ask questions... any reputable dealer will be happy to oblige and remember this: all genuine experts are very willing to share their expertise and passion. If your dealer is vague or hesitant to answer you... shop elsewhere!!!
BTW: VERY FEW genuine armour pieces [such as the breastplates/helmets mentioned above] are available... most of these are in national museums or under strict lock-and-key in private collections. THINK TWICE before buying these pieces in particular, as they are likely to be reproductions.
Last Edited by gsbltd on 6/9/2009 at 8:34 PM |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 646901
United States
6/9/2009 8:39 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Interesting. Just think what all might be out there, stashed away in unexpected or unknown secret places. Makes you wonder. |
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gsbltd
User ID: 699011
United States
6/9/2009 8:49 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Several days ago there was a thread here on GLP that asked the question: "What is the oldest thing you own?"
I was quite surprised at some of the answers; but, the sincere pride of their ownership was clear in most of the responses to that thread. And beyond that, I could relate directly with some of the reasons given for cherishing individual pieces.
As I said before, when you look at ANY object from a historical perspective it changes the significance of that object. Dig into your pockets right now... pull out an old penny and just imagine all the hands that have held it: young, old, strong or crippled; most were probably common folk like you and I... but, you NEVER really know, do you? Then, consider the events that have happened on this planet since that simple little coin was minted. Those are the thoughts that can stop you in your tracks and make you appreciate all that is around you today, even more. It can also be quite humbling.
Last Edited by gsbltd on 6/9/2009 at 8:51 PM |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 8:51 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
OP: I think perhaps you're laboring under a misconception regarding the collection of antiquities... it doesn't take "millions or billions" of dollars to do so.
Truly: you CAN expect to pay upwards of several thousand dollars for a museum-quality Greek amphora [wine vessal] or similar coveted pieces; but, you can also collect smaller, intimate items that have withstood the tests of time for less than what you'd pay for an average piece of contemporary artwork or jewelry! As with ANY collectables, the pricing structures vary on quality, quantity and demand for any given item. If there are a vast number available the prices can be quite reasonable. How would you women like to wear a Ring worn by a Roman Noblewoman for only $125 [and men: these make GREAT gifts guaranteed to knock the stockings off most wives!]? It's very possible!
EXAMPLE: the common oil lamps that were used 2,000 years ago are so abundant that [during the millenium] I once gave them as Christmas gifts by buying them for about $35/ea in lots of 6 lamps. They were all genuine and legally-purchased from a major NYC dealer, and my recipients dropped their jaws when they opened the packages. and, BTW: those oil lamps STILL WORK [with olive oil and a simple string wick] 2,000 yrs after they were created!!!
I've been able to buy a 3,000 year old terracotta clay bottle from the time of Moses for a little over $100; a bronze Greek slave bracelet from 100 b.c. cost me just $65. Sumerian seals, ancient rings and jewelry - even strings of mummy beads [these are quite common and are frequently restrung with modern silver findings for actual wear] can be had for far less than you'd think!!
NOW: about the allure of collecting this type of thing. There is something indescribable about holding an ancient piece in your hands and marvelling at what other hands touched the piece so many eons ago; and, as you do so, you'll start to wonder what their lives may have been like. How they lived, spoke, dressed or ate. It can be an enormously moving experience!! And, when you consider how these common everyday objects have withstood all of man's wars and aggressions, and all the natural calamnities and disasters, it really makes you realise how special these objects from the distant past truly are.
FINALLY: for those of you who would like to explore this fascinating area of collecting for yourselves, I'll heartily recommend the following company. They have an extensive online catalog of artifacts from all periods and cultures and at VERY GOOD prices... and, you may rest assured they are all AUTHENTIC and LEGALLY OBTAINED. Most are available by auction but may also be purchased outright.
Just GOOGLE: Sadigh Gallery Ancient Artifacts to begin your personal adventures... and, be prepared to be AMAZED! Quoting: gsbltd
I truly had no idea
Thank you for sharing this information
I'll check it out
how fun is this! |
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gsbltd
User ID: 699011
United States
6/9/2009 9:01 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
GEE! You don't SOUND angry!!!
GLAD I could help, and THANKS[!] for sharing the story in the first place... it almost makes me wonder what conclusions people will draw about me after I'm gone and they come in and take a look at my little personal museum... I imagine there will be a few gasps from them as well, as they fill their pockets and RUN!!
Last Edited by gsbltd on 6/9/2009 at 9:02 PM |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 9:27 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
GEE! You don't SOUND angry!!!
GLAD I could help, and THANKS[!] for sharing the story in the first place... it almost makes me wonder what conclusions people will draw about me after I'm gone and they come in and take a look at my little personal museum... I imagine there will be a few gasps from them as well, as they fill their pockets and RUN!! Quoting: gsbltd
na
not angry really
just get pretty "bearish" when folks start to dog my son in the military.....and that's how I found GLP
seemed appropriate :-)
truth is, I was never really interested in antiquities until I started looking into why I was so drawn to Scotland....and I've been "hooked" ever since.....
so much to learn....
so many things that aren't as I was taught
I feel very small most of the time....humbled by all those with stories who have gone before me
consequently, I have become the family genealogist as well
LOVE it |
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Douggie
User ID: 695081
United States
6/9/2009 9:29 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
The FBI on Monday showed off a cache of ancient artifacts that a suburban Chicago man apparently hoarded in his home for decades – but no one is quite sure why.
more at link
[ link to www.nbcchicago.com]
anyone have additional information? Have I missed a previous post on this?
Damn, thats awesome. I try to hoard stuff myself. But nothing like that. I have some old things from the 1500-1600 and some ancient artifacts. But nothing like this.
They have the power to create reality
I could explain it better but I would need charts, graphs and an easel.
By the way....which ones pink? |
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Turtles Know
Warning: Turtles Bite
User ID: 697440
United States
6/9/2009 9:33 PM
 | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Hmmm I had a deja vu when I read this thread.
Very interesting. Quoting: Exile
Yeah, me too. Interesting. A road mark, I guess.
No drummer out there is scared of you, Turtles.
AC 586763
push the button and ignore all the lies
you can't live forever, but you can still try [link to myspace.com]
They say the meek inherit the earth, but who, then, gets the kingdom?
[link to turtlesvoice.blogspot.com] |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 699077
United States
6/9/2009 9:46 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Who is the guy/hoarder?
Who is the Mom? |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 10:14 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
Who is the guy/hoarder?
Who is the Mom? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 699077
you want names and addresses or what?
sheeeeesh |
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OneAngryMom
User ID: 697082
United States
6/9/2009 10:15 PM
| | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
The FBI on Monday showed off a cache of ancient artifacts that a suburban Chicago man apparently hoarded in his home for decades – but no one is quite sure why.
more at link
[ link to www.nbcchicago.com]
anyone have additional information? Have I missed a previous post on this?
Damn, thats awesome. I try to hoard stuff myself. But nothing like that. I have some old things from the 1500-1600 and some ancient artifacts. But nothing like this.
I'm REALLY surprised that there's not much interest in all this....I mean
HANDWRITTEN BOOKS?
That sounds like a friggin GOLD mine |
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gsbltd
User ID: 699474
United States
6/10/2009 12:37 PM | | Re: parchments, manuscripts and Papal wax seals, some dating to the 1100s found in Chicago home | Quote |
YEAH: I agree. A collection such as the one in the article WOULD cost millions of dollars - and, some very INFLUENTIAL contacts to acquire. Items such as some of those listed [especially the manuscripts] would only be offered in a private showing/auction; the public would NEVER know those items ever changed hands... that's one reason really exquisite [or high-profile] pieces rarely show up on the open market.
Another thing to remember is that museum thefts are more common than are publicly reported. All major institutions have direct-casts of sculptural pieces in their warehouses not only for documentation, but also for repair should the original become damaged [think: Michaelangelo's PIETA that was smacked with a hammer decades ago and repaired]. In some cases: if a piece is stolen the museum will quietly replace it with a direct-cast while the investigation progresses and the public will never be told until the actual piece is recovered.
I'd be VERY intersted to find out precisely where this guy got his money...
Last Edited by gsbltd on 6/10/2009 at 7:55 PM |
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