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Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 975338
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05/19/2010 05:05 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Are you people so confused by the diagram which shows the overall ORIENTATION of the Moon as it sins in an orbit around the Earth?

It does actually have an orbit; it moves in progression. But STATIC in its own axis regarding spin.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


WTF are you on? That is pure gobbledegook. If you use meaningless terms as freely as you do (and Nancy does) then you can never hope to be taken seriously, because you are obviously so deeply confused when it comes to ANY issue of science.

There are quite a few smart posters to this thread, who know a bit about things like astro-photography, and they are ALL telling you that you are wrong, and that you need to get some BASIC education in science or astronomy. Why do you find it so difficult to accept that you are ignorant and LEARN something? It makes me think you would rather remain ignorant, since then you can perpetuate your delusion.
Menow
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05/19/2010 05:14 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Do you not see in the image the Moon face is always consistent?

This would be as if the Earth always faced the Sun with North America ... but over the whole orbit,
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


I understand this example of yours now. That would mean that Earth is then rotating over a period of one year. It really has nothing to do with the fact that it might still be orbiting the Sun. The Sun could disappear completly and Earth would still be rotating once during a year's time.

You really do have a Zetard's mentality. You are sure you can come along and revolutionize astronomical science just because you decided to, one day.

That's quite an ego, Clare.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 05:20 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Imagine a ping-pong ball on a string: it does not spin on its axis as you swing your body around in order to spin together. This is not the Moon, but it is the issue of axis of the Moon. Now imagine you could pass it between your arms and achieve its own forward spin relative to you spinning. That is what the Moon does: a forward-motion orbit, not fixed relative to a Point in the Earth, but STILL NO SPIN.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


The ping pong ball on a string is in no way an analogy of the earth/moon system. With the ping pong ball, the string constrains it FROM bring anything BUT locked to its parent body. No matter what the momentum or inertia, it CANNOT do anything BUT rotate in synchronicity with the string.

In a gravitationally bound system, both bodies are free to rotate on their own. It's only tidal action that over time causes the body with less mass to gradually come into sync with the more massive body. Nearly all moons in the solar system exhibit this "tidal locking". The fact that there is libration demonstrates clearly that the moon isn't "tied to the earth with a string" as in your little ping pong ball toy.

Eventually, the earth will fall into sync with the sun and be tidally locked to it. Mercury is already tidally locked to the sun in a 3:2 resonance.

[link to www.fact-index.com]

Also, from that reference:

"A tidally locked body takes just as long to rotate around its own axis as it does to revolve around its partner."
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 05:35 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
From that same reference, the earth and Venus are tidally locked in that in closest passes, the same faces always are towards each other. Would you say the the earth or Venus does not rotate on its own axis?
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 05:35 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Clare, why are you avoiding addressing the historic Chandler Wobble data?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 795135



Just so you won't forget.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 07:19 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
It's turning in the sense of "spinning or rotating" on an autonomous orbit around the Earth. It is not SPINNING on ITS OWN axis.


You're wrong.

The Moon falls toward the SUN. Always.

In fact, our Moon isn't a Moon at all, for it is too massive. We are, more accurately, a double planet system, and the Moon and Earth both fall toward the Sun. The Moon does NOT orbit the Earth's center of mass.

Nothing truly orbits the center of mass of anything else, everything has a barycenter, so by that definition there's no such thing as a moon. The barycenter of the earth-moon system is below the earth's surface, so by any reasonable definition it is our moon.
 Quoting: Astronut


I thought the barycenter of moons was the center of the planet, and so they did fall away from the Sun, like Io or Titan, while our Moon always fell toward the Sun. I stand corrected.
Menow
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05/19/2010 07:31 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Do you not understand that Nancy made the mistake that it didn't have its own forward motion relative to the Earth (a true, slow orbit ofo the Earth), versus the issue of spin on its OWN axis?
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Um... Clare... It wasn't Nancy who made the mistake. It was the 300 IQ Zetas who declared that the Moon DOES NOT ROTATE. And if you think Nancy(or "Zetas") made a mistake in what was said, I DARE to you tell her that on the ning.
Returner
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05/19/2010 08:11 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I second Menow's dare, which makes this a DOUBLE DOG DARE.
And why shouldn't you take it? If Nancy is a true prophet and the Zetas are real, what's the harm in an honest question?

Can I get a triple dog dare?
Menow
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05/19/2010 09:07 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
And we can add to the dare that she tell Nancy she doesn't believe Earth is wobbling.

I guess you might be allowed to ask Nancy about these things, as if you had no personal opinion, but then be subjected to condescending remarks about how such has been thoroughly proven and that they all KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt its true, so why are you asking such stoopid questions and WASTING OUR TIME??

Heh...
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 11:52 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
And hello again!

By the way, sorry I referred to you as German in my replies to you. I confused you with a German person who's on here -- SOMEHOW.

:)
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Don't sweat the small stuff.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 12:03 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
It's turning in the sense of "spinning or rotating" on an autonomous orbit around the Earth. It is not SPINNING on ITS OWN axis.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


It is doing both. The fact that the Moon's period of rotation and orbit is the same is irrelevant.

And, again, if Earth and its gravitational effects disappeared in a puff of logic, the Moon would keep right on spinning on its own axis about 12 times a year, in quite a stable orbit around the Sun.

In fact, the Earth has *hampered* the Moon's spin down to the rate where it is tidally locked. If the Sun lasted a long enough time, the Earth would eventually tidally lock to the Moon, as well. If it took a month for the Sun to rise and set on Earth, with the Moon motionless in the sky, would you claim Earth is not spinning?

That the rate of spin of a body matches the period of its orbit does not negate the fact that it is spinning on its axis.

If you are in a car, driving a 360 degree circle around me, as I keep facing it, you will face N,E,S,W as you drive around. Likewise, I will, as well.

Yet, I will only see the same side of the car all the time you 'orbit' me.

Does that mean the car has not 'spun' through all the points of the compass? Have I not spun through all the points of the compass watching the car?
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 05:36 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.
 Quoting: DrPostman

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 06:01 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 975984


[link to en.wikipedia.org]
***ZetaMaX***

User ID: 659599
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05/20/2010 06:03 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 975967


You didn't answer the question:

YES or NO?
The best advice we can give on this matter is to read with your heart as well as your mind. Follow the flow, let the nuances lie unanswered and unchallenged in your mind. Treat this as a garden you are walking through for the first time, and experience it fully without trying to categorize it! Much of what you will learn will be processed in your subconscious, and influence your conscious mind later. If you must dissect each phrase, and correlate it with each piece of information taken from another source, you will trash much of what you could otherwise gain. Live in the gray, not always insisting on black and white and strict compartmentalizations.

ZetaTalk: Oahspe Note: written Apr 15, 1997.
 [link to www.zetatalk.com] 

ZetaMax
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 06:26 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


[link to en.wikipedia.org]


You didn't answer the question:

YES or NO?
 Quoting: ***ZetaMaX***

For once I agree with ZetaMax - "yes" or "no"?
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 06:29 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.
 Quoting: DrPostman


I just think it's funny that after all the lecturing about Philosophy of Science, Radical Doubt and the questioning of basic assumptions we wind up with the claim that something is true because "this is a clear item about the Moon which EVERYONE knows."
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 06:55 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Not everyone knows. Lots of willful ignorance from the Zetatalk
crowd.
 Quoting: DrPostman



Perhaps you misunderstood me.

After all her philosophical rambling about the uncertainty of knowledge, it was Clare who wound up claiming that "everyone knows" that the Moon does not rotate.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 07:28 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???

YES or NO?

For once I agree with ZetaMax - "yes" or "no"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 975984

The beach ball won't rotate on it's own axis because it's held by a Zetard ... the moon rotates on it's own axis in a synchronous rotation (related to earth).
Returner
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05/20/2010 09:02 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Maybe 'Clare' has joined Elle and Volar at Camp ZetaFail!
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 09:20 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 975984


Yes. The key is that from an observer standing on that axis...at the ball's "north or south pole"... he sees the rest of the universe rotating, as anyone from any other viewpoint in the universe sees all sides of the ball. Thus, the ball is rotating with respect to the universe. The fact that another path of motion is impressed upon it does not matter. This is the principle of superposition. Complex motions, such as an orbiting tidally locked body, consist of multiple and seperate motions that can be analyzed seperately. The fact that a body is travelling along a curved path while rotating does not negate the fact that the body is, in fact, rotating. For instance, if a race car is speeding along a track and gets hit by another car and starts spinning, with the driver seeing the world spin around him and the crowd seeing all sides of the car, would you say the car was not rotating just because it is also moving along another path at the same time?
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 09:23 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Maybe 'Clare' has joined Elle and Volar at Camp ZetaFail!
 Quoting: Returner 997


It's interesting how she made such a big deal of the 2005 "anomaly" in the Chandler Wobble, but then steadfastly evaded the subject when historical data was provided showing that the same "anomaly" had occured twice decades before.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 09:28 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


Yes. The key is that from an observer standing on that axis...at the ball's "north or south pole"... he sees the rest of the universe rotating, as anyone from any other viewpoint in the universe sees all sides of the ball. Thus, the ball is rotating with respect to the universe. The fact that another path of motion is impressed upon it does not matter. This is the principle of superposition. Complex motions, such as an orbiting tidally locked body, consist of multiple and seperate motions that can be analyzed seperately. The fact that a body is travelling along a curved path while rotating does not negate the fact that the body is, in fact, rotating. For instance, if a race car is speeding along a track and gets hit by another car and starts spinning, with the driver seeing the world spin around him and the crowd seeing all sides of the car, would you say the car was not rotating just because it is also moving along another path at the same time?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 558013



It is also helpful to mentally expand situations to their extremes to understand them better. In the case of the moon orbiting the earth, let's say that the radius of the orbit of the moon around the earth expands radically...to the point where it approaches a straight line rather than an obviously curved path while the moon still rotates every 29 days with respect to the rest of the universe. Would one then say that the moon is not rotating now just because it is travelling along an almost straight lateral path rather than in an obvious circle? Hopefully, the answer is no.

Once you can mentally seperate the two motions, it is clear that the moon is indeed rotating about its own axis.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 10:33 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Another way to think about it. Let's say that the moon is not orbiting the earth, but is somehow hanging in space stationary at some distance from the earth, and it's rotating at some high rate...say once every 20 hours. We would see all sides of it every time it revolved and someone standing on its north pole would see the sky appear to be rotating around it. I don't think anyone would disagree that it is rotating and rotating on its own axis.

Now, let's slowly start the moon orbiting the earth and settling into once every 29 days while still rotating every 20 hours. Is it still rotating?

Now, let the rotation speed slow down over time to where it is rotating every 20 days. Is it still rotating?

It's rotation speed then slows further until it is tidally locked to its orbital period of 29 days. Is it still rotating?

If you say not, then when did it stop?
Menow
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05/20/2010 11:32 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 975984


Nothing in your example is operating in free space. There is no actual "axis" to talk about in your example.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 12:09 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


Nothing in your example is operating in free space. There is no actual "axis" to talk about in your example.
 Quoting: Menow 935048


Uhhmm, how is "TIDAL LOCK" any different than a "zetard" holding a beach ball?
Setheory
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05/20/2010 12:12 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
“I saw this question posted but no answer is given. I live in Friendswood, Texas so this will tell you the geographic area of this. For several months I have been seeing this very bright star In the heavens. North southwest. Could someone tell me what this is? It seems so low and so bright. I know all who live in this area see it.My directions probably are bad but I know it is seen and has been seen for a long time now. Everyone I ask tell me it is just a star or a planet. I dont know about that. I also see the red star (?) which I have been told is a UFO on fire. I dont know about that.”

I know it is somewhat funny…UFO on fire and such. However, there are really people out there whose lack of understanding makes them vulnerable to these beliefs, not to mention the ZetaTalk material. I think many of us have a sincere desire to educate those who genuinely have questions about these things and this is the unfortunate bit. They are on their own at “said site” and unfortunately the rules ensure their indoctrination.


I see your point. Dont know what to think about it. On the one hand you're right. On the other hand I can't feel for someone even thinking about asking Nancy anything after reading a few pages of zetatalk.com. As long as these people are alone I don'thave a problem if they fall for Nancy. But then I see people with family over there who probably indoctrinate their children about that crap. Like he for example:


Great!!!
This thing has started a big discussion on the credibility of zetatalk again in my family, they remain still in denial and set nancy as the evil liar, but when I asked them why government would found a debunker site against "hot air", they did no anwser ;-)
I hope the coming changes will open a lot more minds, as they finally realize the zetatalk saga is real.
Greetz

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 889663


And another example of someone who stumbled into ZetaTalk and how it affects family and friends:

Hello to all of you! I am new here, having followed and read I think everything there was on ZT. I hope to learn and help others if I can.
I think for the past two years I have been in a stupor. Back in Oct. of 2007 I kept having this prophetic dream of a tsunami hitting the East Coast and a giant wall of water taking me. I'd wake up terrified and could not shake it. It was reoccurring.
One evening I was web surfing and happened upon a website on how to prepare for Planet X. At first I thought it was an elaborate hoax. Man, how I wish that was true. Well as you can imagine, as the light began to unfold itself to me, I was dumb struck. I tried to talk to my friends and some family members and they thought I was heading for the funny farm. NO ONE took it seriously as I sent them endless videos and articles to justify what I was telling them. They had every excuse under the sun.
So, now that there are TWO suns in the sky, do they believe me now? Nope! I cannot understand how in the world they can deny their own eyes? How can they be so idiotic to not sense that this world is heading towards a cataclysmic event. One that has been proven to have occurred before by renown scientists?
Can anyone tell me how to cope with this? My house is up for sale now and with a bit of luck I may get off the East Coast to a safe zone. I want to HELP others but they refuse to listen to me! What should I do, ignore them and know they may very well die?
Thank you all and lookng forward to posting with all of you!
OrionRedStar


It is true that people like this may be beyond hope, but you never know. It does make you wonder though. Is this guy taking his family outside and saying: "LOOK!,can't you see there are two suns?". You just have to shake your head in wonder...you have to hope there are not children involved. That is the real shame.
Returner
User ID: 997
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05/20/2010 12:13 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


Nothing in your example is operating in free space. There is no actual "axis" to talk about in your example.


Uhhmm, how is "TIDAL LOCK" any different than a "zetard" holding a beach ball?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659599


Because when the Zetard holds the beach ball, it cannot rotate about its own axis.

Which the Moon does.

Stick with the Zetard holding the beach ball analogy. but this time, imagine that the Zetard is holding a stick that goes all the way through the beach ball and out the other side. Imagine that the Zetard is holding that stick, which lets the beach ball rotate around the stick...

Got it now?

Of course, the Zetard would also need to be rotating, but that's another story.
Menow
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05/20/2010 12:15 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


Nothing in your example is operating in free space. There is no actual "axis" to talk about in your example.


Uhhmm, how is "TIDAL LOCK" any different than a "zetard" holding a beach ball?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659599


A "zetard" holding a beach ball is effectively ONE object, not two.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 12:27 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Perhaps our Canadian friend couldn't stand all the factual
data and gave up trying to throw philosophy at us in hopes
that we'd give up reality in favor of sophistry.

OK - a legitimate question.

I pick up a beach ball, and hold it out away from my chest. I then turn around 360 degrees.

Did the beach ball just "rotate" ... on its "own" axis???


Nothing in your example is operating in free space. There is no actual "axis" to talk about in your example.


Uhhmm, how is "TIDAL LOCK" any different than a "zetard" holding a beach ball?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659599


In tidal locking, both bodies are in free space and free to rotate on their own...there is no "string" or physical structure between them...only an attractive force. Weak tidal forces gradually adjust the speed of rotation of the smaller body to match the orbital period.
Setheory
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05/20/2010 12:44 PM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Another way to think about it. Let's say that the moon is not orbiting the earth, but is somehow hanging in space stationary at some distance from the earth, and it's rotating at some high rate...say once every 20 hours. We would see all sides of it every time it revolved and someone standing on its north pole would see the sky appear to be rotating around it. I don't think anyone would disagree that it is rotating and rotating on its own axis.

Now, let's slowly start the moon orbiting the earth and settling into once every 29 days while still rotating every 20 hours. Is it still rotating?

Now, let the rotation speed slow down over time to where it is rotating every 20 days. Is it still rotating?

It's rotation speed then slows further until it is tidally locked to its orbital period of 29 days. Is it still rotating?

If you say not, then when did it stop?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 558013


Well done, that is an effective thought experiment.

Here is an interesting question: What heavenly bodies do not rotate about an axis?

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