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Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!

 
Menow
User ID: 935048
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05/24/2010 01:24 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I have put thought exercises to you guys. Except 74444 you aren't doing them.


Yes, you did. I responded to the one about the race car knocked into a spin as it still moves down the track. I asked you if the driver would be correct if he insisted that his car was NOT spinning. Funny, you didn't answer.

I have responded to several other of your thought experiments too. Funny, but they proved you wrong, like this one does. Funny, but you didn't answer back after *I* had the courtesy to address YOUR thought experiment!



1)Clare... You DID finally claim to know what angular momentum is. So, moving on from that... does the Moon, as a massive spherical body, possess any angular momentum?


2) 9th repeat: What motions would the Moon display if Earth suddenly went missing?


I see. I didn't get to go back in pages, the last few days. Lots going on here. Only looked at the most recent ones.

The driver would be right in saying he's not rotating (in two ways) only if he considers the rest of the world spinning around him, as Earth-centric views insist about the heavens.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Why is it sooo difficult to understand what the hell you are talking about? To what does "in two ways" refer?

I THINK you ended up saying, in your back-assward way, that
the driver would NOT be correct in saying that he was not spinning, right?

In what way does that driver's illusion that he's not spinning differ from looking at the Moon from Earth?

As to the words ... "Spinning"? "Rotating"? As we've found, these words can refer to two different actions.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


What? I have seen no confusion between 'spin' and 'rotation'. The confusion has been with YOUR mixing up 'rotation' and 'revolution', and you have not had the courtesy to acknowledge the correction, though it was repeated several times.

Yes, he is "spinning" around the racetrack centre.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


I stand corrected... Only YOU could make that sort of confused statement. No, he is NOT 'spinning' around the race track center. He could be said to be REVOLVING around it, but we should be careful in applying orbital terms to non-orbital situations.

So... with your confused language, I don't know WHAT you are saying there.

Yes, his axis is turning relative to that point.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Huh? His AXIS is TURNING?? How can an axis TURN, Clare? We would have to be introducing motion in another plane for that to be true. WHEN will you start to learn the correct terms for what you are trying to talk about?

Yes, the total turn will "spin" him around his axis around the other axis.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


MUST you descend into gobbleygook? The question is simply if he and his car are truly spinning, or if HIS point of view is reliable. Can't you stick to THAT simple question?

But to reduce the problem further,
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Well, you haven't 'reduced' it at all, yet. Let's see how you do now.

if not also spinning relative to his OWN direction, he is in some sense not spinning around his axis, but rather another axis.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


What axis would that be, Clare? It's really simple. The car is spinning as it moves along the track. It hasn't even been established that he is CURVING in his forward motion. Not bloody likely, I'd say, yet you seem to be fixating on that idea. The car MIGHT continue around a circular track, but THAT IS NOT IMPORTTANT. The relevent point is that the driver doesn't have an accurate point of reference by looking at the inside of his car.. PERIOD!

Looking at the Moon from Earth is EXACTLY THE SAME.

Using the same language without clarifying what's stationary or not, is pointless, as we have found here.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Well, the TRACK is stationary... what else can you possibly be wondering about? The CAR is not stationary, the DRIVER is not stationary... WTF are you talking about?

1. The Moon would display different motions:
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Really... pray tell.

it would "spin" off in wider and wider circles ... "around its axis"
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Totally stupid. You have NO idea how far out of your depth here, Clare. You cannot write ANYTHING about this stuff with out resorting to utter nonsense.

How can the Moon make circles around its OWN axis, Clare?

around a now-moving straight trajectory point instead of around the Earth's trajectory point.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


The "Earth's trajectory point"???????? What in the flying FUCK is THAT????

You haven't the SLIGHTEST FUCKING IDEA what you are talking about.

However, these are still circles amounting to orbit ...
which turn an axis, though the total turn can be also called a "spin" but it's not clear that way what is going on.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Complete and utter meaningless tripe.

2. My point was: the Moon does not have spin relative to its forward motion, point for point.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


The moon does not appear to rotate from from a frame of reference where the Moon does not appear to rotate... that's PROFOUND, Clare!

So, in that sense I am right; in the other, you and I are right that it spins around its axis if we choose to represent forward motion as if in one spot.

Good night, Menow. Hope you're well.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


No detector yet invented nor even conceived, can sense the level of rightness you falsely imagine you have attained.

Well, you finally took a stab at one of my two questions. I wonder how many repeats it will take until you stop skipping over the other one?

One more time:

1)Clare... You DID finally claim to know what angular momentum is. So, moving on from that... does the Moon, as a massive spherical body, possess any angular momentum?
The Commentator

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05/24/2010 01:24 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I am curious about that ring, though.

Please stop calling the Southern Belt of Jupiter a "ring".
Jupiter has rings, much tinier than Saturn but they do exist:
[link to en.wikipedia.org]



Thank you! Clare seems to have trouble with basic nomenclature.


You do. I just think visually quite often and slipped into calling it by a visual analog. I know the difference and have said so immediately. Now for you and your Moon ...

:)

Hey, Commentator, seriously: you are right it rotates around its axis if you conflate (as you are) the forward movement with a turn, into one picture.

And this is what the astronomers are naming. That the Moon does not rotate relative to a tipped, wobbly axis or anything.

But there is a different phenomenon, such as Venus exhibits, which can also be described by the phrase "rotate around its axis" (or spin around its axis) and which refers more directly to whether the body is completing turns even with no forward direction relative to a path.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744



How much a day do you spend on crack, and how do you possibly earn that much money? I mean hanging around bus depot restrooms can't be very financially rewarding....
non sufficit Orbis

Being a zetatard means never having to make sense.

"Nancy pays me to post on Her threads"

Free Store admits to being a paid zetadrool shill

NO max/bridget EVER!!!!!
NO luser EVER!!!
NO clunker EVER!!!!!
Menow
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05/24/2010 01:29 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Rather than further complications about using the same words to talk of different actual motions, on different orders of magnitude (one "turn around its axis" relative to path, the other "turn around its axis" relative to another axis) ...
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Only YOU have that confusion, Clare. There is actually NO confusion about that AT ALL! One is ROTATION. One is REVOLUTION.

There is NO SUCH THING as your bolded statement. It is nonsense, Clare. It is only YOUR contrived confusion.

How can you expect knowledgeable people to be willing to discuss ANYTHING with you if you have not gotten that straight after this many corrections?
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 01:36 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
It's pretty obvious that Clare is either Nancy herself or one of the ignored trolls. The truth is that the only place they get attention is on the debunker thread. They say for some, bad attention is better than none at all. The ning experiment is doomed. How long can they lick her feet without question before they all get bored? Maybe they can have another edifying discussion on the merits of flush toilets like they did when the debunker boycott of her threads started.



I really don't think clunk is ninny LIEDer herself, LIEDer has never been this civil this long, of course she may have listened to the doctor when he mentioned haloperidol.....
 Quoting: The Commentator


Why thank you for your compliment re. the civility. I admit, I lost it once at one person and once at least with another. But yes, I try.

I also am clearly well educated overall, of course, which Nancy is not, it seems, at least formally educated as far.

By the way, Commentator fellow :) , I am finishing one of Koestler's books. Ever read any? They're wonderful.

As to the Moon thing, everyone, including Menow who wants to re-engage: the nomenclature for the total axial forward movement represented as if in one spot, is "spin on an axis". So yes, you and the astronomers are right in calling it that and imaging it that way.

But in order to understand the difference between the movement of Venus around the Sun and the movement of the Moon around the Earth, we must also talk of a spin around its axis (or lack thereof) RELATIVE TO ITS PATH. If none of the latter, then Venus and the Moon are clearly differing in what they're doing. And the term "spin around its axis" is also used for this phenomenon.

Since the phrase is used for both, but different aspects (levels of complexity or order of magnitude) are being described in each point we are making ... perhaps you will see the physical movement I wished to point out?

It is common, however, to conflate the movement on a path with the total movement around an axis and call it "turn" or "spin" or "rotation".

But "rotation" is also used to mean around another axis.

And when something stands on the spot, and turns on the spot, this is also called "rotation", but usually "spin."

I was merely trying to speak of a different item than you; yet of course, you are using one accepted set of meanings for the phrase. And as such, it turns on its axis, given what perameters you are using, that is perfectly fine to say.

Best wishes,
Clare
The Commentator

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05/24/2010 01:41 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
It's pretty obvious that Clare is either Nancy herself or one of the ignored trolls. The truth is that the only place they get attention is on the debunker thread. They say for some, bad attention is better than none at all. The ning experiment is doomed. How long can they lick her feet without question before they all get bored? Maybe they can have another edifying discussion on the merits of flush toilets like they did when the debunker boycott of her threads started.



I really don't think clunk is ninny LIEDer herself, LIEDer has never been this civil this long, of course she may have listened to the doctor when he mentioned haloperidol.....


Why thank you for your compliment re. the civility. I admit, I lost it once at one person and once at least with another. But yes, I try.

I also am clearly well educated overall, of course, which Nancy is not, it seems, at least formally educated as far.

By the way, Commentator fellow :) , I am finishing one of Koestler's books. Ever read any? They're wonderful.

As to the Moon thing, everyone, including Menow who wants to re-engage: the nomenclature for the total axial forward movement represented as if in one spot, is "spin on an axis". So yes, you and the astronomers are right in calling it that and imaging it that way.

But in order to understand the difference between the movement of Venus around the Sun and the movement of the Moon around the Earth, we must also talk of a spin around its axis (or lack thereof) RELATIVE TO ITS PATH. If none of the latter, then Venus and the Moon are clearly differing in what they're doing. And the term "spin around its axis" is also used for this phenomenon.

Since the phrase is used for both, but different aspects (levels of complexity or order of magnitude) are being described in each point we are making ... perhaps you will see the physical movement I wished to point out?

It is common, however, to conflate the movement on a path with the total movement around an axis and call it "turn" or "spin" or "rotation".

But "rotation" is also used to mean around another axis.

And when something stands on the spot, and turns on the spot, this is also called "rotation", but usually "spin."

I was merely trying to speak of a different item than you; yet of course, you are using one accepted set of meanings for the phrase. And as such, it turns on its axis, given what perameters you are using, that is perfectly fine to say.

Best wishes,
Clare
 Quoting: mclarek 971744



In other words, you are still armwaving and talking bullshit.

Never read him. Have you ever read one I. Newton? Ever hear of Newton? He had lots to say you should know before getting in over your head.

Glad that haloperidol is working for you.
non sufficit Orbis

Being a zetatard means never having to make sense.

"Nancy pays me to post on Her threads"

Free Store admits to being a paid zetadrool shill

NO max/bridget EVER!!!!!
NO luser EVER!!!
NO clunker EVER!!!!!
Menow
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05/24/2010 01:54 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
As to the Moon thing, everyone, including Menow who wants to re-engage: the nomenclature for the total axial forward movement represented as if in one spot, is "spin on an axis". So yes, you and the astronomers are right in calling it that and imaging it that way.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Except that it's not 'imaginary'. The Moon rotates... ON ITS AXIS.

But in order to understand the difference between the movement of Venus around the Sun and the movement of the Moon around the Earth, we must also talk of a spin around its axis (or lack thereof) RELATIVE TO ITS PATH.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


For the umpteenth time.. NO WE DON'T. A body's rotation is NOT altered by other motions. The Moon rotates relative to the background stars. Or do you think the universe is revolving around the Moon?

If none of the latter, then Venus and the Moon are clearly differing in what they're doing. And the term "spin around its axis" is also used for this phenomenon.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


There is NO difference between Venus and Moon's rotational motion, other than RATE. Period.

Since the phrase is used for both, but different aspects (levels of complexity or order of magnitude) are being described in each point we are making ... perhaps you will see the physical movement I wished to point out?
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


The only complexity in this is in YOUR mind.

It is common, however, to conflate the movement on a path with the total movement around an axis and call it "turn" or "spin" or "rotation".
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


No such 'conflating' has occured. They are separate motions. Only YOU are trying to confuse the two.

But "rotation" is also used to mean around another axis.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


NO IT'S NOT. That is called ******REVOLUTION*****.

GET IT?????????????

YET?????????????????????

And when something stands on the spot, and turns on the spot, this is also called "rotation", but usually "spin."
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


Name an object, ANY object in the entire universe which "stands on a spot", Clare.

I was merely trying to speak of a different item than you; yet of course, you are using one accepted set of meanings for the phrase. And as such, it turns on its axis, given what perameters you are using, that is perfectly fine to say.

Best wishes,
Clare
 Quoting: mclarek 971744


See above. You are completely full of shit.
mclarek
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05/24/2010 01:57 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
(Menow-style mercy snip)


As to the words ... "Spinning"? "Rotating"? As we've found, these words can refer to two different actions.


What? I have seen no confusion between 'spin' and 'rotation'. The confusion has been with YOUR mixing up 'rotation' and 'revolution', and you have not had the courtesy to acknowledge the correction, though it was repeated several times.


Yes, he is "spinning" around the racetrack centre.


I stand corrected... Only YOU could make that sort of confused statement. No, he is NOT 'spinning' around the race track center. He could be said to be REVOLVING around it, but we should be careful in applying orbital terms to non-orbital situations.

So... with your confused language, I don't know WHAT you are saying there.

 Quoting: Menow 935048



Yours does not handle this difference: mine can speak of what the Moon is doing even if it went straight.

Enough. Not going more into physical E-M momentum forces which make all this happen. The physical forces pull and push on the total body and spin it to accomplish the rotation. Yes.

However, it does not also have spin on it relative to its forward motion in total.

It turns on its axis as it moves forward, but does not spin in its own right relative to the movement forward in the new direction. We're both right, but describing different levels of the geometry.

On a force level, yes, the pull turns the axis as the momentum directs it straight away.

On a geometric level, there is another item we have to name: the possibility of a body to turn MORE than it is pulled forward on an orbit/turned on its axis around it on the orbit.

That is the spinning car on an orbital racetrack. And yes, I specified the racetrack was round.

It is this second type of "spin on its axis" geometrically which I am describing, a spin relative to the overall path the angular momentum physics cancels out at: the orbit.

More turn than it requires then a spin as I described can be seen.

Like Venus.

Now, PX. Any news?
mclarek
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05/24/2010 02:02 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Oh -- before you get picayune in your sneer tactics, about "turns the axis" I mean, of course, turns the body around it.

But the point is, equal to the overall orbital path turn to take. No more.

If more, then we observe what most people call spinning in its own right.

What word would you like to give that? Hm? Venus' motion. What would you call it.

I call it "spinning on its axis" ... as it "rotates" ...

But you like to call the turning of its body on the rotation a "spin on its axis" which is totally legitimate.

So what do you call what I am referring to? Or shall we just specify, as I started to long ago:

Venus: relative to its path, spin, but Moon no.

Venus AND Moon: relative to a straight line, spin, from forces, pulling it to make the path.

:)
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 02:23 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
The Zeta shit will be wrong until Nancy dies.

You obviously haven't read it with an open mind.

[link to www.zetatalk.com]
 Quoting: ***ZetaMax***



An 'open mind' is a good way to allow your brain to slip out.
mclarek
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05/24/2010 02:47 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Hey, Commendator and Menow:

Since you are right it turns on its axis as it rotates,
what would you like to call the spin which Venus exhibits in addition to its orbital angular spin on its axis?

It is the latter I (and most people) call "spin on an axis" and it IS a separate and very real identifiable relationship of axis to path.

Would you say it just has more angle than momentum forward, instead of equal?

What would you like to call this, so we can agree there is a difference between the spin on the axis of the Moon from that of Venus?

They both spin on their axis in orientation around their orbits, but the latter one has a discernible extra spin while on its orbit.
The Commentator

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05/24/2010 02:52 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Hey, Commendator and Menow:

Since you are right it turns on its axis as it rotates,
what would you like to call the spin which Venus exhibits in addition to its orbital angular spin on its axis?

It is the latter I (and most people) call "spin on an axis" and it IS a separate and very real identifiable relationship of axis to path.

Would you say it just has more angle than momentum forward, instead of equal?

What would you like to call this, so we can agree there is a difference between the spin on the axis of the Moon from that of Venus?

They both spin on their axis in orientation around their orbits, but the latter one has a discernible extra spin while on its orbit.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744



Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.

Best go back to your comic books, klunk. You are not ready for such advanced topics.

Oh yes, time for your meds, don't forget them this time, you need them badly.

Last Edited by The Commentator on 05/24/2010 02:55 AM
non sufficit Orbis

Being a zetatard means never having to make sense.

"Nancy pays me to post on Her threads"

Free Store admits to being a paid zetadrool shill

NO max/bridget EVER!!!!!
NO luser EVER!!!
NO clunker EVER!!!!!
mclarek
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05/24/2010 03:04 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Hey, Commendator and Menow:

Since you are right it turns on its axis as it rotates,
what would you like to call the spin which Venus exhibits in addition to its orbital angular spin on its axis?

It is the latter I (and most people) call "spin on an axis" and it IS a separate and very real identifiable relationship of axis to path.

Would you say it just has more angle than momentum forward, instead of equal?

What would you like to call this, so we can agree there is a difference between the spin on the axis of the Moon from that of Venus?

They both spin on their axis in orientation around their orbits, but the latter one has a discernible extra spin while on its orbit.



Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.

Best go back to your comic books, klunk. You are not ready for such advanced topics.

Oh yes, time for your meds, don't forget them this time, you need them badly.
 Quoting: The Commentator


Klunk back. I asked you what you would call the daily rotation around its axis, of Venus, when the Moon has not daily rotation around its axis while going around the Earth.

So, what would you want to call that motion? Daily rotation instead of "spin on its axis"?

But the car, hit on the circular racetrack, but tethered to the centre point (like gravity), would have a special spin relative to the road, as it goes forward on it. This is like the day of Venus.

So, what do you call it so it can talk of both the daily rotation AND a car spinning on its axis, relative to the spin it takes forward on its rotation as well?

YOU answer this. Or you don't show you get the point. Besides, I would love to know what you would like to call this level of understanding, what I called spin, but when any object has it. A car it would not be called "daily" (spin or) rotation, as a planet would get called.

So, when you get off your cock-sure-nasty meds, please answer me what you would like to call this, so it applies to all bodies.
So, what do you want
mclarek
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05/24/2010 03:21 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Besides, Commentator, YOU are the one with a comic-style avatar! LOL

So, rather than talk of OTHER things, why don't you answer the question?

What do you want to call the type of movement, which in a planet is called daily rotation around its axis, when it's not happening in a planet? It is THIS which I called spin on its axis relative to its path, which in planets is a closed path (ellipse, close to a circle), but can also happen to something standing in place (relative to other fixed points), or on any path, straight, wave, or whatever.

Why don't you comment, or should I say, "commentate" -- lol -- ?
mclarek
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05/24/2010 04:10 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Commentator: re. my statement "So, what do you want" at the end of my post, 1 before the last one, it was meant to read, "So, what do you want to call it?"
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 04:15 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I haven't seen anyone post so many words and end up with a post that means- nothing...

meaningless word babble

What gets me is that clunk (nice nicename that, very appropriate) seems totally stuck on using words incorrectly, redefining words to mean something else and generally trying very hard to avoid being pinned down on what (if any) meaning she has herself applied instead of either the common or astronomical usage

What gets me is that the only viewpoint that the moon doesnt `spin' is from the earths surface, and that same viewpoint also shows that the sun rotates around the earth!!!

Stand on either of the moons axis points and the starfield clearly rotates
Stand on any point on the moon that receives sunlight and there will be a `sunrise' and `sunset'as the moons rotation causes an apparent rotation of the sun around the moon...

I was able to explain this to an eight year old, and she readily grasped the concept that not only was the moon spinning, but its spin rate had to be the same as its orbital period in order to show the same face to the earth at all times (didn't use words that big, but she readily grasped the concept when shown with a tennis ball and basket ball)
She even grasped the idea that if the moon didn't spin on its axis then it would indeed have a `dark side' and a `light' side (fun games can be had with a torch or table lamp and a basket ball and a tennis ball- we even managed to have an `eclipse' on the basketball/earth)

Learning can be fun clunk- ask your mummy or daddy to try this out with you (but dont touch the lightbulb- it's ouchie burnies hot ok- just like the sun!!!)
The Commentator

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05/24/2010 04:21 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Hey, Commendator and Menow:

Since you are right it turns on its axis as it rotates,
what would you like to call the spin which Venus exhibits in addition to its orbital angular spin on its axis?

It is the latter I (and most people) call "spin on an axis" and it IS a separate and very real identifiable relationship of axis to path.

Would you say it just has more angle than momentum forward, instead of equal?

What would you like to call this, so we can agree there is a difference between the spin on the axis of the Moon from that of Venus?

They both spin on their axis in orientation around their orbits, but the latter one has a discernible extra spin while on its orbit.



Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.

Best go back to your comic books, klunk. You are not ready for such advanced topics.

Oh yes, time for your meds, don't forget them this time, you need them badly.


Klunk back. I asked you what you would call the daily rotation around its axis, of Venus, when the Moon has not daily rotation around its axis while going around the Earth.

So, what would you want to call that motion? Daily rotation instead of "spin on its axis"?

But the car, hit on the circular racetrack, but tethered to the centre point (like gravity), would have a special spin relative to the road, as it goes forward on it. This is like the day of Venus.

So, what do you call it so it can talk of both the daily rotation AND a car spinning on its axis, relative to the spin it takes forward on its rotation as well?

YOU answer this. Or you don't show you get the point. Besides, I would love to know what you would like to call this level of understanding, what I called spin, but when any object has it. A car it would not be called "daily" (spin or) rotation, as a planet would get called.

So, when you get off your cock-sure-nasty meds, please answer me what you would like to call this, so it applies to all bodies.
So, what do you want
 Quoting: mclarek 971744



Remember these simple questions?

Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.


You totally ignored them.

Look, kid, the best thing you could do is master high school physics and the elementary math that involves, learn the proper terms then come back to try to argue your case.

So far all you have done is armwave and behave like a troll.

What do you can the motion of a planet about its north south axis? What is the proper technical term?

What is the proper technical term for a planets motion around its parent star?

Start with those, clunk. Then perhaps there will be something to talk about, until you learn the proper nomenclature there is no communications possible with you.

Last Edited by The Commentator on 05/24/2010 04:32 AM
non sufficit Orbis

Being a zetatard means never having to make sense.

"Nancy pays me to post on Her threads"

Free Store admits to being a paid zetadrool shill

NO max/bridget EVER!!!!!
NO luser EVER!!!
NO clunker EVER!!!!!
mclarek
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05/24/2010 04:54 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
What would you like to call this, so we can agree there is a difference between the spin on the axis of the Moon from that of Venus?

They both spin on their axis in orientation around their orbits, but the latter one has a discernible extra spin while on its orbit.



Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.

So, what do you call it so it can talk of both the daily rotation AND a car spinning on its axis, relative to the spin it takes forward on its rotation as well?

YOU answer this. Or you don't show you get the point. Besides, I would love to know what you would like to call this level of understanding, what I called spin, but when any object has it. A car it would not be called "daily" (spin or) rotation, as a planet would get called.

So, when you get off your cock-sure-nasty meds, please answer me what you would like to call this, so it applies to all bodies.
So, what do you want



Remember these simple questions?

Care to explain how a Venusian sidereal day thus lasts longer than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day?


How about you tackle the 13:8 orbital resonance between Venus and Earth?

Didn't think so.


You totally ignored them. [...]

Start with those, clunk. Then perhaps there will be something to talk about, until you learn the proper nomenclature there is no communications possible with you.
 Quoting: The Commentator



No, Smarmee,

YOU answer. We have finally come to the point and you deflect.

What name for the motion of spin with no other motions considered, would you like to give?

I won't let you wiggle out of the question.

I have in fact identified the difference, and you wiggle out!

Do you even have a term you'd like to use, Smarmee?

See, I have itdentified that the motion needs identifying.

The terminology, "spin, rotation, turn" is used for BOTH your orbital path orientation of a body AND the action I have identified.

SO, the confusion here is yours, on this issue.

Name the item I identify. It is now clear it's different in relation to points at rest (relative), and you try to ignoe, saying I don't get deflected onto your other points, Smarmee.
mclarek
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05/24/2010 05:04 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
What gets me is that the only viewpoint that the moon doesnt `spin' is from the earths surface, and that same viewpoint also shows that the sun rotates around the earth!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


So, the fact that from ABOVE the rotation around the Earth, the Moon shows no other face to it doesn't make sense to you?

And if it did, would you understand the difference?

Venus shows rotation (daily) to the Sun. The Moon does not to the Earth.

The fact the Moon "only" shows one face to the Earth is a CRITICAL DIFFERENCE in the type of motion it exhibits.

If the Earth were the Sun, and the Moon were a planet, it would be different ...

So, see the difference? Or are you unable to realize relative motion is the key point here: to the Sun, Venus shows different faces, as does the Moon. But the Moon does not to the Earth.

Gobbledygook from a clunk? Or key perceptual difference?

In order to assess the difference, stop the Moon in forward motion and would the amount it turns be more than its forward motion required? No. Hence, no spin on the body except through forward "steps" along the path.

Venus spins MORE than its orbital path steps require. It spins on another level of understanding. The Moon does not.
mclarek
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05/24/2010 05:16 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
 Quoting: anonymous coward 763624


"What I meant when I said this, "If the Earth were the Sun, and the Moon were a planet, it would be different ..." I mean different than Venus, in showing different faces to the Sun.

When you say that only from the Earth we notice that the Moon shows one face, and then bring in how the Sun seems to go around us, you are showing you do not understand the differences in peception all this requires. We can't compare apples and oranges, so to speak, here. The view of the Sun from the Earth is another motion relationship.

So...
If the Moon were going around the Sun as if the Sun were the Earth, and Venus were orbiting too around the Sun, Venus would show different faces to the Sun and the Moon would not.

And in this example, since the Sun is like the Earth in our comparison, the centre of the GALAXY would be seen to go around the Sun, from the Sun's viewpoint, just as the Sun seems to go around the Earth from the Earth's viewpoint.

My point is, from this mind experiment: Venus would show faces to the Sun and the Moon would not. Other outlying bodies (Sun, for Earth's viewpoint, and Galaxy centre for Sun in Sun's viewpoint) is a confusion of what motions we were discussing, and what is important.

The Moon always shows its face to WHAT IT ORBITS.
Venus doesn't.
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 05:31 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
The Moon always shows its face to WHAT IT ORBITS.
Venus doesn't.
 Quoting: mclarek 971744



hint clunk- look up on google a thing call `tidal locking'

most moons in our solar system show it

eventually the earth will be tidally locked to the sun as well (don't worry, it wont be for billions of years yet- but it will happen eventually)
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 05:40 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
What gets me is that clunk (nice nicename that, very appropriate) seems totally stuck on using words incorrectly, redefining words to mean something else and generally trying very hard to avoid being pinned down on what (if any) meaning she has herself applied instead of either the common or astronomical usage

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624

Rather like Nancy herself.
andrew

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05/24/2010 06:16 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
I haven't seen anyone post so many words and end up with a post that means- nothing...

meaningless word babble

What gets me is that clunk (nice nicename that, very appropriate) seems totally stuck on using words incorrectly, redefining words to mean something else and generally trying very hard to avoid being pinned down on what (if any) meaning she has herself applied instead of either the common or astronomical usage

What gets me is that the only viewpoint that the moon doesnt `spin' is from the earths surface, and that same viewpoint also shows that the sun rotates around the earth!!!

Stand on either of the moons axis points and the starfield clearly rotates
Stand on any point on the moon that receives sunlight and there will be a `sunrise' and `sunset'as the moons rotation causes an apparent rotation of the sun around the moon...

I was able to explain this to an eight year old, and she readily grasped the concept that not only was the moon spinning, but its spin rate had to be the same as its orbital period in order to show the same face to the earth at all times (didn't use words that big, but she readily grasped the concept when shown with a tennis ball and basket ball)
She even grasped the idea that if the moon didn't spin on its axis then it would indeed have a `dark side' and a `light' side (fun games can be had with a torch or table lamp and a basket ball and a tennis ball- we even managed to have an `eclipse' on the basketball/earth)

Learning can be fun clunk- ask your mummy or daddy to try this out with you (but dont touch the lightbulb- it's ouchie burnies hot ok- just like the sun!!!)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


so many words and a post that means nothing...

you are right about your own post -
meaningless word babble

Moon does NOT rotate around its own axis. It only rotates in an orbit around the Earth, with its one side always "glued" to Earth.

and this doesnt depend on what words you chose to attach to these things to decribe.
andrew

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05/24/2010 06:20 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
The Moon always shows its face to WHAT IT ORBITS.
Venus doesn't.

hint clunk- look up on google a thing call `tidal locking'

most moons in our solar system show it

eventually the earth will be tidally locked to the sun as well (don't worry, it wont be for billions of years yet- but it will happen eventually)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


like there is someone on Earth to say this with confidence...
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 06:30 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
oh look its `handy andy' (older ozzies will remeber the ads)

suits this `let it swing free' young fella rather well..

he probably buys it in by the 44 gallon drumload for his sheets LOL


(whats wrong handy andy- the ning a bit slow since nancy took it over and kicked your smelly arse out on the street??)
andrew

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05/24/2010 06:36 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
its spin rate had to be the same as its orbital period in order to show the same face to the earth at all times
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


nice try by human science to concoct explanation to wht is observed.

I was able to explain this to an eight year old, and she readily grasped the concept that not only was the moon spinning, but didn't use words that big, but she readily grasped the concept when shown with a tennis ball and basket ball
She even grasped the idea that if the moon didn't spin on its axis then it would indeed have a `dark side' and a `light' side (fun games can be had with a torch or table lamp and a basket ball and a tennis ball- we even managed to have an `eclipse' on the basketball/earth)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


sure, if that's the only opinion she hears, no wonder that she gasps it.
its called peer pressure - one adjusts his opinion to the rest of the group (popular opinion), considering himself wrong.

has been proven experimentally.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 06:37 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!






Except that it's not 'imaginary'. The Moon rotates... ON ITS AXIS. MENOW quote


Menow, are you STILL on this thing? The moon does not rotate.
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 06:43 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
sure, if that's the only opinion she hears, no wonder that she gasps it.
its called peer pressure - one adjusts his opinion to the rest of the group (popular opinion), considering himself wrong.

has been proven experimentally.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: andrew

now nandrew- care to show us all why nancy is wrong and that the earth ISNT halted in its orbit?
or why she is right and it is??

your link is the best case of showing experiments are usually right I have ever seen

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

has been proven experimentally by you in that post
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 06:44 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
Except that it's not 'imaginary'. The Moon rotates... ON ITS AXIS. MENOW quote


Menow, are you STILL on this thing? The moon does not rotate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 753268



no it doesnt...

from the same viewpoint that the sun orbits the earth- your statement is quite correct....

......
andrew

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05/24/2010 06:47 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

now nandrew- care to show us all why nancy is wrong and that the earth ISNT halted in its orbit?
or why she is right and it is??

your link is the best case of showing experiments are usually right I have ever seen

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

has been proven experimentally by you in that post
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763624


that experiment puts scientific objectivity under serious question. scientists are just people, after all, you know.

and peer pressure (social/group conformity) often overrides ones own Independent Thinking and Objectivity, and critical thinking.
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 06:52 AM
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Re: Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!
and peer pressure (social/group conformity) often overrides ones own Independent Thinking and Objectivity, and critical thinking.
 Quoting: andrew

something you have again proved on many occasions

(the first quote in ()- not the last 3- you have never shown any sign of the last three)

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