Debunker Talk LIVE Chat 24/7 - A debunker's paradise!!

Are you sure you want to do that Freestore? The only action Nancy's threads see are posts from the dog spammer and a few debunkers that can't resist the temptation to call Nancy on her bullshit with facts on their side. You do realize that without any debunker presence, her thread would die out by Sunday with 4 or 5 pages? It has been proved before. How is that going to look to prospective new converts?

So if the title had been something like "Jupiter Ignition vs Zetas" it probably would not have been deleted?

hmmm -- Jupiter Ignition vs. The Zetas -- I like it.

But I don't want to get banned just for being a smart ass. It was fun while it lasted -- someone posted a long block of nonsense from Jesus Michael himself!

I think I know what she's trying to say; she thinks polaris is too high in altitude in the alt-az coordinate system. Naturally this would cause it to circle widely around the true axis of rotation, and it would also throw off anyone who polar aligns their scope in at least the altitude setting (assuming polaris happened to be directly above or below the true axis at that time).

Why is it that debunkers scare the hell out of you?

Polaris is too high in the dome. Not where it should be. With only slight side to side change.
Quoting: Nancy Lieder


Utter hogwash. *IF* Polaris was "too high in the dome"(too far south) at say, 10pm, it would be that same amount too far to the "side"(west) 6 hours later. The Earth ROTATES every 24 hours, Nancy!

SHEESH!

Hilarious how you ignored this part:

Nancy most certainly DOES need debunkers. If not, why did she invade sci.astro with her nonsense?

Polaris IS always 'due north', within a degree or so. That is not affected by Earth location.

What I meant is that she probably just looks at the northern horizon, and since it is not there, it is "higher in the dome". I don't think she understands that the farther north you are, the "higher in the dome" Polaris will be, and the closer to the equator, the closer the north star is to the horizon.

Right. I see what you meant now. There is no guessing what Nancy thinks. She certainly thinks that Polaris could be 'off' in one direction, but not in others. Heh! How ignorant of her.

Wow, I think you hit the nail on the head. I never even thought a person could misunderstand that, but the way you just explained it makes perfect sense. The funny thing is that "how high in the dome" Polaris is does tell you an important bit of information, just not the information Nancy thought it was telling her. It tells you your latitude, it will always be just as high over the horizon as your latitude coordinate, give or take a quarter degree.

Yes, and as you said, it is so basic, something that boy scouts learn in orientation, that it is hard to believe that a grown adult doesn't understand this, and even harder to believe that she has built a cult around her ignorance, and still harder to believe that people actually listen to and believe her.

Apparently, Nancy can't think three dimensionally or she fails to realize that the Earth is round...not flat. Therefore, one's view of the sky will change greatly depending on far north or south of the equator you are.

User is over in the other thread claiming our boycott is a failure. He's wrong as usual...of course. The boycott successfully proved that, without "debunkers", Nancy's threads drop to the back pages rather quickly and don't get nearly as many views or posts. He even went so far as to claim that we got "new orders from our handlers." What a delusional moron.

Well, the amount of people that actually listen to and believe her isn't all that large. And they aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack either.

Last Edited by Circuit Breaker on 11/24/2009 08:10 PM

It's what they do when those pesky and inconvenient little facts pop up and shine a spotlight on the glaring inconsistencies and untruths in the ZetaTalk "message". Heaven forbid that they might defend Nancy with facts of their own, so all they have is the tired old "paid shill" accusations. Luser, Max and Freestore all run damage control for Nancy. Whenever the argument is not going Nancy's way and there is no defending her, they resort to the attacks, hoping to bury the incriminating evidence where nobody will see it.

She's already positioning herself to present us with the new and improved great white lie, the mother of all white lies to extricate herself from the "2012 is too far out" gaffe. It will have to be one hell of a whopper for all but her most devoted flock to believe a word she says from here on out.

Wow!! Coming from Mr Canadian Word guy himself your request is quite hypocritical numbnuts!!

You are being way too kind there, CB.

Nancy's small band of merry followers are actually nothing more than dud bulbs.

:Bunker_Con:

Last Edited by The Lone Ranger on 11/25/2009 02:36 AM

I like the sound of that, Returner. It's a very catchy slogan!!

That certainly explains Loser's behavior. I don't see why he cares so much if someone chooses to "debunk" Nancy unless he has so much invested in what she says. As 2012 approaches, expect his desperation to reach a fever pitch.

Hmm, gee, Nancy's thread is nowhere to be seen today. Not to worry, as soon as one of her minions reads this they'll either bump it or page someone.

Let's put the location of Nancy's thread in ZetaTalk terms, as if it were Planet X!

SOZT

Nancy's thread, which will soon be seen by the Common Man despite efforts by the Elite to conceal it, is even now just to the right of the Sun. By aiming its South pole magnetrons directly at GLP's North pole, Nancy's thread is creating a stream of flowing magnetrons which will cause GLP's etheric ionosphere to charge, resulting in an aurora of pop-up ads and broken water mains all across Page One! the Elite will distract the masses by pasting ads featuring bikini-clad Swedish fitness instructors on the Front Page, but few will be fooled.

EOZT

CB, I'm just offering a little bit of "push-back" and you guys cannot stand this. Kinda says a lot, don't you think?

You guys are more than nasty to people supporting Nancy's threads and you hate it when it comes back to you. What goes around .... comes back around sometimes. This will not change.

It's Max, Son of Nancy!

Hiya Max!

What's absurd about it...you just bumped her thread.

If your "push-back" contained anything other than personal insults, if it at least contained some "facts," even incorrect or irrelevant "facts," it'd be a lot more enjoyable to engage you in debate. In and of itself I don't care about insults, but at least try to make an attempt at an intelligent response. Getting "pushed-back" by nothing by personal insults and baseless accusations is just irritating, it may as well be spam from a bot.

At least our posts contain useful information and facts to back up what we're saying. Yours are completely devoid of it and that's why there's no equivalency between the two. You could fix this by actually addressing the facts we have presented. Why don't you start with the "polaris too high in the dome" issue?

Last Edited by Astromut on 11/25/2009 10:11 AM

"Pushing back" with rational debate would not a problem or be objected to. We ask legitimate questions about, and challenge the veracity of Nancy's claims. You, on the other hand, simply spew venome and insults and avoid factual issues.

I think the zetacult followers suffer from "True Believer Syndrome."

true-believer syndrome


The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity. --The Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher

The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder? --M. Lamar Keene

True-believer syndrome is an expression coined by M. Lamar Keene to describe an apparent cognitive disorder characterized by believing in the reality of paranormal or supernatural events after one has been presented overwhelming evidence that the event was fraudulently staged. Keene is a reformed phony psychic who exposed religious racketeering—to little effect, apparently. Phony faith healers, psychics, channelers, televangelist miracle workers, etc., are as abundant as ever.

Keene believes that "the true-believer syndrome is the greatest thing phony mediums have going for them" because "no amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie." That those suffering from true-believer syndrome are consciously lying to themselves hardly seems likely, however. Perhaps from the viewpoint of a fraud and hoaxer, the mark who is told the truth but who continues to have faith in you must seem to believe what he knows is a lie. Yet, this type of self-deception need not involve lying to oneself. To lie to oneself would require admission that one believes what one knows is false. This does not seem logically possible. One can't believe or disbelieve what one knows. (Belief is distinct from belief in, which is a matter of trust rather than belief.) Belief and disbelief entail the possibility of error; knowledge implies that error is beyond reasonable probability. I may have overwhelming evidence that a "psychic" is a phony, yet still believe that paranormal events occur. I may be deceiving myself in such a case, but I don't think it is correct to say I am lying to myself.

It is possible that those suffering from true-believer syndrome simply do not believe that the weight of the evidence before them revealing fraud is sufficient to overpower the weight of all those many cases of supportive evidence from the past. The fact that the supportive evidence was largely supplied by the same person exposed as a fraud is suppressed. There is always the hope that no matter how many frauds are exposed, at least one of the experiences might have been genuine. No one can prove that all psychic "miracles" have been frauds; therefore, the true believer may well reason that he or she is justified in keeping hope alive. Such thinking is not completely illogical, though it may seem pathological to the one admitting the fraud.

It does not seem as easy to explain why the true believer continues to believe in, that is, trust the psychic once he has admitted his deception. Trusting someone who reveals he is a liar and a fraud seems irrational, and such a person must appear so to the hoaxer. Some true believers may well be mad, but some may be deceiving themselves by assuming that it is possible that a person can have psychic powers without knowing it. One could disbelieve in one's psychic ability, yet still actually possess paranormal powers. Just as there are people who think they have psychic powers but don't really have any such powers, there may be people who have psychic powers but think they don't.

wishful thinking?

A study done by psychologists Barry Singer and Victor Benassi at California State University at Long Beach illustrates the will to believe in psychic powers in the face of contrary evidence. They brought in a performing magician, Craig Reynolds, to do some tricks for four introductory psychology classes. Two of the classes were not told that he was a magician who would perform some amateur magic tricks. They were told that he was a graduate student who claimed to have psychic powers. In those classes, the psychology instructor explicitly stated that he didn't believe that the graduate student or anyone else has psychic abilities. In the other two classes the students were told that the magician was a magician. Singer and Benassi reported that about two-thirds of the students in both groups believed Craig was psychic. The researchers were surprised to find no significant difference between the "magic" and "psychic" classes. They then made the same presentation to two more classes who were explicitly told that Craig had no psychic abilities and that he was going to do some tricks for them whereby he pretends to read minds and demonstrate psychic powers. Nevertheless, more than half the students believed Craig was psychic after seeing his act.

Singer and Benassi then asked the students whether they thought magicians could do exactly what Craig did. Most of the students agreed that magicians could. Then they asked the students if they would like to change their estimate of Craig's psychic abilities in light of the negative data they themselves had provided. A few did, reducing the percentage of students believing in Craig's psychic powers to 55 percent. Then the students were asked to estimate how many so-called psychics were really fakes using magician's tricks. The consensus was that most "psychics" are frauds. The students were again asked if they wished to change their estimate of Craig's psychic powers. Again, a few did, but the percentage believing in Craig's psychic powers was still a hefty 52 percent. [Benassi and Singer; Hofstadter]

For many people, the will to believe at times overrides the ability to think critically about the evidence for and against a belief. The concept of the true-believer syndrome, however, does not help us understand why people believe in the psychic or supernatural abilities of admitted frauds. Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error.

kinds of true believers

n any case, there are at least three types of true believers, though they are clearly related. One is the kind Keene was referring to, namely, the type of person who believes in paranormal or supernatural things contrary to the evidence. Their faith is unshakable even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them, e.g., those who refused to disbelieve in "Carlos" once the hoax was revealed, or those chiropractors who would rather give up randomized, double-blind controlled experiments than admit that applied kinesiology doesn't work. Keene's examples are mostly of people who are so desperate to communicate with the dead that no exposé of fraudulent mediums (or channelers) can shake their faith in spiritualism (or channeling).

Another type of true believer is the cult follower. Emily Harrison watched her mother, Debra Harrison, die as she and Consegrity® co-founder, Mary A. Lynch, practiced their "healing energy" medicine to no avail. As they tried to will away the "bad energy" that they believed was causing Debra's illness, Lynch, an M.D. who should know a diabetic when she lives with one, spoon-fed her partner orange juice. Debra Harrison had co-invented Consegrity with Lynch and did not seek medical attention, even though at the time of her death she showed all the signs of diabetes.

Debra's son, David Harrison, writes:

As a Medical School graduate ... Mary [Lynch] should have been able to recognize that things were seriously wrong with my mother's health condition during her final days. My mother was very hungry all of the time and ate several large meals per day, but did not gain weight. Dozens of friends and family stated that she was becoming fatigued and experienced exhaustion very quickly. She had dropped weight from a healthy 150 lbs at 5'4" to a mere 95 lbs. She was weak and began to look aged as her muscle mass dropped. All of these are the symptoms of a Type 2 diabetic.

The disease was onset and quickly depleted her fat reserves as her body could no longer absorb nutrients from the food she ate. Thus, the unexplained weight loss. As her body ran out of energy sources to burn she began to lose muscle mass and became weak. Because her body was no longer producing insulin, her blood sugar levels were at a dangerous vulnerability as the sugars could no longer be used as energy. For a diabetic of this type, without an insulin shot to utilize it, sugar becomes a deadly poison. Normal blood sugar levels are below 110mg/dl. My mother's blood sugar levels at the time of autopsy were recorded at 945 mg/dl—600 mg/dl over the fatal limit.

How did this happen? Upon entering my mother's empty bedroom 24 hours after her death, my siblings and I noticed 8 empty gallon-sized orange juice containers sitting on the dresser....Upon relating the final moments of my mother's life to my siblings and I, she stated that she had been spoon feeding orange juice to my mother on her death bed. (David Harrison, personal correspondence).

Despite the fact that diabetes is treatable and that a medical doctor should recognize obvious signs of the disease, Mary Lynch and Emily Harrison maintain that it was the "negative energy" of family members that killed Debra. What Lynch and Emily Harrison saw as negative energy, the family members who were trying to get Debra to go to a hospital for treatment saw as loving concern. Most rational people would see things the way the family members did. Nevertheless, Emily Harrison followed Dr. Lynch when she left town and set up shop peddling the same snake oil under a different name.

Lynch's irrational beliefs are undoubtedly tied to her personal investment in energy healing, but Emily Harrison's decision to reject her relatives and move on with Dr. Lynch is typical of cult followers whose devotion is to a person. They have faith in their guru that is unshakeable. With this kind of irrational thinking, it is pointless to produce evidence to try to persuade people of the error of their ways. Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one's guru can be rationalized.* There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend).

One other type of true believer is described by Eric Hoffer in his book The True Believer. This type of person is irrationally committed to a cause like terrorist attacks on civilians, murdering doctors who perform abortions, or following a guru like Jim Jones even to the point of murder or suicide.

One possible explanation for true-believer syndrome is that the belief satisfies an emotional need that is stronger than the need for the truth. Why some people have such a strong emotional need to believe in something that rational people recognize as false is perhaps unanswerable, but it is the way some people deal with cognitive dissonance.

Why some people are willing to kill or be killed for beliefs that wouldn't pass muster with most rational folks is even more puzzling. It may have to do with insecurity. Eric Hoffer seemed to think so. He wrote:

The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause....

A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business....

The fanatic is perpetually incomplete and insecure. He cannot generate self-assurance out of his individual resources -- out of his rejected self -- but finds it only by clinging passionately to whatever support he happens to embrace. This passionate attachment is the essence of his blind devotion and religiosity, and he sees in it the source of all virtue and strength.... He easily sees himself as the supporter and defender of the holy cause to which he clings. And he is ready to sacrifice his life.

Hoffer also seemed to think that true believers want to give up all personal responsibility for their beliefs and actions. They want to be free of the burden of freedom.

[link to www.skepdic.com]

I see Maxie got his page and bumped the thread. Good job, Max. Good to know you're on the job.