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I don't notice WHAT other aspects of the claims? Please be SPECIFIC!



Doesn't matter one whit.



Right... the all-powerfull "Zetas" forgot that bit. Heh.



Then you would just suggest somthing else we haven't adequately 'tested', Clare. There is no end to your imagining where PX could be hiding. I think I said exactly that about 75 pages ago.

I don't, but that's THE CLAIM, so that's what you're up against.

It's like a God hypothesis -- on this point, anyway -- and so you ARE dealing with an untestable hypothesis unless they mess up.

Not my fault; it's the fault of the CLAIM.

.............

That's why I don't bother with this issue usually.

But anyway, if they mess up, then clearly it's not in the Moon, planets or Sun ... and if they say that's where they mess up, they're lying about those (if the Zetas are real).

Think this through.

So, if you want to be AS THOROUGH AS POSSIBLE in your testing, all you have left is the fixed stars' parallax. Maybe the Zetas left clues THERE instead of in the Moon, planets, Sun (and are lying about the latter to deflect from the former).

If this is true, then test the fixed stars.

But since this is a near-God hypothesis, as I said, EVEN IF the parallax is fine, it "might be" the Zetas are doing a perfect job, and lying about leaving any clues at all. So the only way to catch them would be if they WANTED you to have something to catch them with.

"Light bending"? The only one even suggesting that is you, with your blatant handwaving to a claim you made up on the spot. The funny part is there is that since you're making claims up on the spot which themselves equate to "magic" and for which you lack any evidence whatsoever, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to conclude that they would have "missed" parallax other than your entirely baseless and arbitrary assumption.

If they're tilting us then we would be able to detect the tilt. It would not fix the positions of the stars as you've claimed, not even a little, it would only make things worse.


No, it's not an interesting question at all, it's just pointless illogical handwaving to magic. Here's the equivalent; there's an invisible ninja elf hiding in my lawn. Prove there isn't. Gee, wasn't that interesting (no)?

WTF does that even MEAN? Of COURSE the positions of sky objects would change if Earth was tilted. That is NOT what you said. You SAID that "The tilt would put the constellations in the right place, but not the Sun"

That claim is IDIOTIC!

That sort of claim HAS to be a troll!

LOL, no clare, that's not how it works. It's up to YOU to prove YOUR ridiculous claim, the burden of proof rests with you, not with us. It's not even the zetatard's ridiculous claim, it's your own pet theory, no one else's.

No, that's what YOU are up against. No one but YOU is worried about that possibility!



Then Zetatalk is a RELIGION, exactly as we debunkers have been saying for YEARS!



But you are doing so now just to fuck with people?



Huh? Nancy says those things are out of position on a regular basis. If they are not, then it is a pack of lies.
(Hint: It's a pack of lies)




You can't test for God, Clare, and that is what you are suggesting.



No, YOU test the fixed stars. It's YOUR paranoia speaking.



How many times have I said that Nancy's claims lie entirely in the realm of "might-be"?

Clunk doesn't want to learn because she thinks she already knows more than pros like Hap, Astronut, 74444 and others here. Instead she is like the arrogant know it all 7 year old that thinks they can educate her parents and teachers. Down with Clunkspam. Don't feed the troll.

Well, if Zetas are lying about our being stopped, there is still the probable 2nd magnetic field operating on the Earth to create repulsion with the Sun's attraction.

If so, then maybe PX is here somewhere and we are not identifying it. And if so, then SOHO fakes might play a part (or not), and some sinkholes, earthquakes, volcanoes, weather effects, meteorite increases, meteorites going into the Sun from the "same direction" into the Sun (as actually off-camera dust and/or moon) from PX, and some repeated water main breaks, and extremely high waves in the Mediterranean (as being ripples from a possibly PX-induced underwater split, quake, or seafloor drop).

In other words, all the OTHER items might link. Or they might not.



Sure it does. If it's real, then it's real. If it's fake then it's fake. And if it's real it could be deceptive to Nancy, too.

These all have different ramifications for us and for the PX hypothesis -- and for other issues which might link to a real or false PX hypothesis, but in different ways. Such as Project Bluebeam or whatever: is it another PX cover? Or is PX the cover for it? Or neither?


[quoting:Menow]
Right... the all-powerfull "Zetas" forgot that bit. Heh.

I am merely circumscribing the hypothetical ramifications. This is scientific. I am not saying they are all-powerful.

The claim is a NEAR-UNTESTABLE one on the basic level, about the Zetas. So, what can we test? What is left that might be missed by Zetas? Only parallax is left (since followers of Nancy seem to be wrong about all the other planets and Sun and Moon doing anything wrong). And if parallax turns out to be fine then, hypothetically speaking, it is true that we CANNOT KNOW if it's really okay or if all-powerful Zetas fixed that, too.

At least I'm helping keep you on the full hypothesis. Even though I don't think there's anything the Zetas are manipulating like that, even if they exist.



It's not the same level of likelihood, though, as fakery during an intelligence op; and I'm never claiming all-powerful perfect humans who didn't slip up on 9/11. My claim is THEY DID.

The fakery is an easier and more likely proposition.

The Zetas are a God-hypothesis, practically. And it's way out on a limb. But I was simply saying the FULL RAMIFICATIONS of the claim from Nancy, and showing why I mentioned parallax on the stars at all.

I am not defending Nancy. So why should I? I am merely pointing out what the FULL RAMIFICATIONS of their claim are.

THEY say there's a near-perfect light-bending going on.

So, the only thing left to test about a putative stoppage -- notwithstanding the Zeta proponents themselves believing the Moon, Sun and planets ARE off -- the only thing left to test, for you guys, is the stellar parallax.

That's all.

And even if it turned out true, the claimants would say the Zetas did a good job on that.

I am replying to others who keep suggesting I don't get the parallax issue on the stars, or who keep forgetting I don't believe in stoppage, or who have forgotten they're dealing with a near-untestable proposition from Nancy, because for every test, she will say the Zetas fixed it.

So, you have misidentified what is spam and what is a troll and why the exchange is going on.

So, about you:

The "Zeta" claim is that the repulsion force rises to equal the force of gravity at the point of contact between large bodies like PX and the Sun. So, Clare, how does that keep PX allegedly hovering near the Sun for 7 years and slow PX from near lightspeed as it allegeldy careened toward the Sun?


(snip all the other silly 'might-bes' until and unless you answer this point)

So, to someone like you, that means she perpetually might be right, right?

clunker, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SMOKING? Best drop the crackpipe, stop huffing brake fluid and varnish and get your ass to elementary school to pick up the stuff you clearly missed the first half dozen times you tried it.

Oh wait, you really don't mean anything you say, what with your being a notorious liar and all....

They aren't suggesting you don't get it, they are stating a fact and have provided plenty of examples to prove you don't. Even you keep providing evidence to support that. With every depressingly stupid post, you prove just how ignorant you are. If you really were looking for truth, you would realize that there are people on this thread that know a lot more than you do, and they can help you learn with real exercises and point you in the direction of good information. But you insist on shoving youtube videos and kook conspiracy down our throats. Maybe you don't agree, but whether intentionally or not, you are behaving like a spoiled troll.

No, you claim to be disprovers (debunkers). You should know you are dealing with an irrational claim about Zetas fixing stoppages -- but WHY?

Not because you can't test things; not because PX is an irrational concept; but because it is UNTESTABLE if the putative Zetas DO THEIR PUTATIVE JOB RIGHT.

So you ARE worried about it and don't know you are. In other words, you don't feel worried, but it is what your conundrum faces.

Me, I don't deal with the untestable aspect claims. That is, where the Zetas would say they "fixed" it.



Well, good for you.

But there are some aspects of seeming irregularities in our Earth, our magnetosphere, and so on, that MIGHT be due to a PX. So it's not all about impossibly perfect Zetas. Thus, not a pure religion.



Oh. A sexual term. Been a long time? HA HA HA!

Okay. Anyway, just kidding.

No, YOU are the one who wanted to go on about this, to misinterpret the reasons I suggeste testing parallax since it's the only thing left to test (if Zetas are doing a great job with the rest).

I am not interested in the stoppage issue. I have simply laid out the whole hypothesis and where it all leads:

-test parallax in case Zetas f-ed up there and nowhere else
-or leave it
-or test it and if you find it's fine, you still have not disproved Zetas, since they are nearly all-powerful in the claim of the followers of Nancy



I already handled this.

The putative Zetas could have misled Nancy as to WHAT is off-kilter. It is clear the rest of things are not off, so all you have left to test is parallax. And as always, it doesn't DISPROVE the putative perfection of Zetas. It would be only if they LEFT you the clue that you'd find it, supposedly.

But it would prove we've stopped, if you find a problem in parallax.



How slow are you?

I am saying the Zetas supposedly leave clues. The only clue they could have left is the parallax issue. You've tested all the rest.

You can test only if they MESSED UP (they're not quite God), or if they LEFT A CLUE (and lied about the other clues).



I am not being paranoid. I am not even inclined to believe this part of the hypothesis.

But it WOULD be to do YOUR job fully: a scientist should take the tests to their fullest.

I am merely working out in fine detail what's left to test, on this hypothesis. I don't even consider it likely to be worth it, but it is in FACT a stone left unturned.



And I have said so too, but not all of them are so highly so as this stoppage one. This one is. In fact, it goes beyond might be, to a possibly unprovable claim -- since Zetas are supposedly mostly fixing everything about it.

Dinnertime.

And no, I won't be replying to all the little comments on these issues; in general I try to (and then get slammed by others for "spamming"), but many of the issues are covered in the Menow-mclarek dialogue on this one.

If I find any exceptions I will try to get to them later.

:)

That's not their claim though, that's YOUR claim. It's up to you to prove it. The ramifications of THEIR claim is that we would detect the tilting and stopped motions.

No, you say that. They say that the appearance of the stars is faked by tilting the planet.

That's just it - you're not proposing to test THEIR claim, you're proposing to test YOUR claim, which is not THEIR claim. Not only are you ignoring parts of their claim that you don't like, you're adding parts which reduce to magic, which have no supporting evidence, and that they don't even propose. They at least claim to have evidence for "tilting" and the sun, moon, and planets being off, even if they're wrong they at least pretend to be falsifiable. You're substituting their claims with your claims. It's your job to at least try to provide supporting evidence, even Nancy does that much. If you won't support your claim then there is NO reason for anyone else to test it; it falls by default since you have the burden of proof.

Last Edited by Astromut on 06/15/2010 08:19 PM

Huh? Why WHAT?



What job?



I have no conundrum if I have no intention to attempt to prove a negative or that God or magic don't exist. Get real!



YOU brought the whole idea up, you loon!



What PX? Where is it?


How do YOU know what is 'left to test'? YOU haven't tested ANYTHING!




You think YOU are teaching US that we can't disprove the supernatural? Your EGO knows no BOUNDS!



Second repeat: Nancy says that things in the sky are out of place on a regular basis, so apparently 'they' DO 'mess up'.



You HANDLE nothing, ever. You dance around, move goalposts and change positions.



Fuck you.



We have? How do you know that?



Fuck you.



Fuck you.




Guess what...

Fuck you. I'm tired of this absurd dance.

Fuck you. And don't invoke my name in your 'dialogue' again.

There is NOTHING 'might-be' about that claim. It is simply absurd. It is only YOU suggesting supernatural possibilities, and demanding that WE take them seriously. It's completely laughable.



Supposedly? And we are supposed to take that seriously simply because YOU say so?

Didn't you know? clunker isn't an idiot, she is just differently abled, she isn't a fucking liar, she is differently truthed.

No wait, she IS a fucking liar. And an idiot.

Last Edited by The Commentator on 06/15/2010 09:52 PM

Don't get what?

Parallax on the stars having some possibility of revealing putative "mistakes" from the Zetas in hiding a putative stoppage-cum-tilt?

No I don't not get it and no they don't think it isn't so. It's clear that Menow knows it's a possibility but -- like me -- he doesn't think it worthwhile.

But it would be a final test of a (probably wildly silly lie) from Nancy's visions -- even though if they're all-powerful, it would not be a totally conclusive test. It would be the final one you could do, though.

Oh come on, Menow. You guys are the ones who want to debunk the full claims of a seemingly silly woman -- in your view -- and her visions.

And as one of her major claims, the stoppage of the rotation is, I admit, a good one to disprove.

But, you CAN'T -- because it's not merely postulated that we've stopped, but that there's MANIPULATION so you won't KNOW!

So, part of that claim is the MANIPULATION of it all by Zetas. Thus, that is the final "unknowable" in the whole thing, and you can't logically get away from that. It is part of what you have to account for. To be scientific, you have to say:

"We are not just testing if the ordinary phenomena would be changed, but have to also recognize that part of the claim is not testable -- unless there's a deliberate mess-up by the putative Zetas."

It is PART of the claim. So, you can test all you want, but since they have postulated Zetas and manipulation by them, you can never disprove it. You could only PROVE that we've stopped -- and that's only if the Zetas let you.

It is not my postulate. It is theirs. And so it's part of what you are fighting.

I know WHAT?!

Maybe I didn't make myself clear... let me restate:

Fuck you.



You haven't even the slightest idea what you are talking about.

The only test one needs to verify that the earth is not stopped, not wobbling wildly, and that the planets in our solar system and the stars are in their rightful place is to observe them. Period. The only test one needs to conclude that the zetas are not tilting the earth to simulate normalcy is good old common sense and an elementary school understanding of physics. Period. Clunk is a troll.

We are 'fighting' no such thing. No one is claiming to disprove magic, or God, and that is the logical refuge you have fully retreated into.

You are a brat, braying like a 12-year-old that we can't disprove your magic, or a negative. How many times do I have to say it?

You're an obtuse, argumentative, raving lunatic. I pity all those who have to live/work around you.

This is exactly where Maxie ended up with his 'argument'. It's the "Anything Is Possible" position...

Light-bending is the claim often repeated on Zetatalk. It is not my postulate. I am only elucidating what and what not you can test for.

They have a nearly untestable hypothesis in their claim: it is that only IF the Zetas want you to know, will you know.

So, you can prove we are stopped, IF they let you, but you cannot prove we are NOT stopped, if they don't.

That is the basic premise of this whole silly affair. And it is THEIRS. It is a conundrum, because it's a near "fairyland" postulate. But -- it is what they are saying.

And at least there's the idea built in that the Zetas have left clues. LOL! So it's not a TRULY God-hypothesis. But nearly so!



Well, I know how you feel. I mean, I don't even deal with this claim of the Zetas -- it is handwaving from Zetas or Nancy (take your pick). But it is their claim: so, what CAN we do with it? Anything? Only wonder if there are clues the Zetas left.

*I* think it's likely pointless and silly to try, but ... to leave no stone unturned, you could watch for if there were ANYTHING out of place.

Since most things are fine in motion obviously, then either ALL IS ACTUALLY FINE (most likely so, one would think), or THE ZETAS HAVE FOOLED US ALL.

Since the Zetas are part of the proposition in the first place, the 2nd postulate is (unfortunately) a co-claimant for attention.

Thus, what can we honestly, scientifically do (if we are going to bother!): we can test the parallax on the faraway stars. The Zetas might have left a clue there; if we find a problem, then it's all up for grabs.

If we don't, then the putative Zetas remain, hypothetically, still able to fool us.

Personally, I am only laying out the FULL LOGICAL RAMIFICATIONS of a (highly likely silly) claim. But ... it is interesting that no-one's claimed they've done the only remaining test they can: the parallax on the fixed stars.

So I brought it up -- as a brain teaser. That's all.

NOT LIKELY TO BE IMPORTANT.
So ...
Don't bother, unless you ARE concerned about putative Zetas and want to rule every possibility out that you can.

(Personally, I find the other issues around PX more interesting, individually and as a group -- with or without PX to account for them.)

I meant, Menow, that you know we haven't bothered to test the parallax.

No need to swear.

I don't mean you think there are Zetas.



Yes, I do. If there's total manipulation by God-like Zetas but they're leaving clues -- as Nancy would posit -- and this is what you want to do your best with, then you could test the parallax.

I don't suggest you bother, but it would be the last test you could do, before everything is:

a) just fine (seeming)
b) not fine

And note, even a) doesn't cover Nancy's claim fully: since it is a tautology, whereby it only means (to her, etc.) that the Zetas did a great job fooling us with light bending.

You really can't win this with them. They have set up a tautology ... or almost. I mean, b) would prove something is off ... but also proves all the rest was manipulated.

HA HA HA.

Anyway, it's most likely it's all fine and normal and no Zetas are tipping the Earth and we're not stopped and fooled.

Of course.

As if WE don't know that??

Idiot.

I postulate that YOU don't exist. Prove me wrong.