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Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:11 PM
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Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
[link to dsc.discovery.com]

Warp Drive Engine Could Suck Earth Into Black Hole

Eric Bland, Discovery News

June 11, 2009 -- "Star Trek" makes faster-than-light travel look easy, but according to new calculations by Italian physicists, a warp drive could easily create a black hole that would incinerate any passengers on a space craft and then suck Earth into a black hole.

"Warp drives are so far the best case scenario to attain faster-than-light travel," said Stefano Finazzi of Italy's International School for Advanced Studies. This paper "makes it much harder to realize, if not almost impossible, warp drives."

In normal physics, nothing can move faster than the speed of light. Einstein's theory of relativity forbids it. In normal space any object approaching the speed of light will increase in mass exponentially, and require an exponential increase in the amount of power needed to propel it forward.

There are two exceptions to this rule however. The first is what's commonly called a worm hole, a bridge connecting two different parts of space. A ship crossing this bridge would move at below light speed, but still arrive before a beam of light that would have had to go the long way around.

Warp drives are the second and more appealing option. A ship can't move through space faster than the speed of light. But with enough energy, space itself can move faster than the speed of light.

Known for the Mexican physicist Michael Alcubierre who originally developed the idea in the 1990's, an Alcubierre warp drive would create a bubble of energy behind the ship and a lack of energy in front of the ship, like a giant cosmic wave a space ship could surf. That particular section of space can travel faster than the speed of light in the surrounding space, and anything on or in that bubble will accelerate with it.

Finazzi and his colleagues propose creating this bubble of space-time by using a massive amount of "exotic matter," or dark energy. (Exactly how this bubble would be created is still a mystery.) According to their calculations and simplified, it would take a huge amount of energy to create the bubble, and then increasing amounts of energy to contain the highly repulsive dark energy.

Eventually the energy would run out. The bubble would rupture, with catastrophic effects. Inside the bubble the temperature would rise to about 10^32 degrees Kelvin, destroying almost anything on the bubble.

Anyone watching the ship nearby wouldn't be much better off.

"We know that the warp drive will be destabilized," said Finazzi. "But we do not know if it will in the end explode or collapse to a black hole."

Other physicists agree with the Italians' calculations, up to a point.

"It's a good paper; their results are sound," said Gerald Cleaver, a professor of physics at Baylor University who reviewed the work. The results make sense, at least, when creating warp drive using exotic matter in a universe where 1 plus 1 equals 2.

In a universe where 1 plus 1 equals 3, a possibility with string theory instead of the semi classical physics used by the Italians, a stable warp drive is viable.

Last year Cleaver and co-author Richard Obousy detailed a string theory-based warp drive that creates a bubble of space time by expanding one of the tiny, rolled-up dimensions (instead of a bubble of dark energy) predicted by string theory.

The biggest sticking point to a extra dimension-based warp drive? The entire mass of Jupiter would have to be converted into pure energy to power it.

The real question is not whether a warp drive, which by Cleaver's estimate is hundreds of years away, will be stable or not. It's about the fundamentals of the universe; do we live in a universe where 1 plus 1 equals 2 or 3? Until scientists can answer that question, there will be significant limitations on scientific models of the universe.

"These papers suggest limitations to what we can and can't do," said Cleaver. "We as scientists enjoy these papers because then we can look for ways to get around those limitations."
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:26 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Using dark energy, no one would survive.


If they did, they would never be the same because they would've moved into the dimension infested with things you don't want to know.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:27 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
[link to www.movie-views.com]
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:31 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Using dark energy, no one would survive.


If they did, they would never be the same because they would've moved into the dimension infested with things you don't want to know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701646



That's why in Star trek they have the anti-matter containment field.

It's the same concept with nuclear power, it's a great source of power by no one can handle the by products.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:33 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
well i'm glad they got that worked out now!
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:50 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
but the energy wouldn't run out with a proper and ever lasting energy source...just sayin...

so the 'warp drive' could be kept at stable and safe conditions. there's more powerful and longer lasting stuff than just nuclear power. nuclear power is so over rated and outdated...
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 04:57 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
All they have to do is find a substance that a laser will repel, and not destroy, make a ship out of it, use the laser for propulsion, and you are traveling at the speed of light.
Galaxy

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06/13/2009 05:09 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Good to know. i'll destroy immediatly my warp drive i've made in the basement.
Luctor et Emergo.
Lizard Of Id
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06/13/2009 05:12 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Then we really could write the entire Bible on the head of a pin with a sharpie!





Bitchen!
picesnator

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06/13/2009 05:13 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
bet there is one already operational hidden somewhere...
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 05:17 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Well explain all those things flying around the sky at a million miles an hour.
Someones got stable warp drives.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 05:35 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
bet there is one already operational hidden somewhere...
 Quoting: picesnator



I have one in my seceret base off the souuthern coast of Pataginia...
Enlilson

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06/13/2009 05:38 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
there are more immediate potentials for this to happen.
It doesn't matter who I m it's who U R so ChoOse
Wraithwynd

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06/13/2009 05:43 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Exotic matter is not the right source of energy for this.

To properly 'warp' space one needs to focus gravitons - creating a huge 'gravity' wave field in front of the vessel then have that move forward. Space, and time 'warps' around gravity wells - you just have to make one with out the mass.

Matter/energy conversion is the key you create matter from energy to make the graviton field, then immediately (within nanoseconds convert it back into energy - continue doing over and over again the graviton field 'appears' at the same point relative to the ship, but since the vessel is being drawn 'forward' by the gravity (ever increasing its velocity) the spot of space that the matter is created is always further 'ahead'.

Make the graviton field large enough physics laws 'fail'. In effect you are creating the gravity field of a 'black hole' without actually creating a collapsar. The 'event horizon' will be out of reach of normal physics - space will warm around that point where light and matter will be able to travel the light speed.

BTW Einstein never said that matter can't travel faster than light. He made it perfectly obtuse about matter traveling FASTER than light speed. If you look over the whole body of work you get a 'feeling' that he knew that matter could travel faster than light, but keep us all in the dark.

Using a graviton warp field generator to pull the space that short acceleration beyond light speed opens the doors for other methods of propulsion beyond the barrier c.
Sinkhole list:
Thread: Sinkholes Updated 28 Dec 2010
find a sinkhole, add it to this thread, please.

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15, NKJV).
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 05:43 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Using dark energy, no one would survive.


If they did, they would never be the same because they would've moved into the dimension infested with things you don't want to know.



That's why in Star trek they have the anti-matter containment field.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 688442


Not to mention the Main Deflector Dish Array to force objects out over the warp bubbles path... we'd need one of those too.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 07:35 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
[link to dsc.discovery.com]

Warp Drive Engine Could Suck Earth Into Black Hole

Eric Bland, Discovery News

June 11, 2009 -- "Star Trek" makes faster-than-light travel look easy, but according to new calculations by Italian physicists, a warp drive could easily create a black hole that would incinerate any passengers on a space craft and then suck Earth into a black hole.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701929


THAT is just plain asinine!@ We DO NOT have the slightest idea of how to create a warp drive, so we can't POSSIBLY understand how one would work, and what consequences it would have!


.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 07:46 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
In normal physics, nothing can move faster than the speed of light. Einstein's theory of relativity forbids it. In normal space any object approaching the speed of light will increase in mass exponentially, and require an exponential increase in the amount of power needed to propel it forward.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701929



bsflag

in relativity "c" is instantaneous. "c" is not the speed of visible light.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

plenty goes faster than visible light. ultraviolet, x, and gamma rays, and beyond...it is infinite.
Einstein new this, and had to define "c" as instantaneous, which is why nothing can go faster than instantaneous...or it would go backwards in time and bend space-time.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2009 07:48 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
After further consideration you cast a somewhat disdainful glance at me—and rightly so—and you declare: “I maintain my previous definition nevertheless, because in reality it assumes absolutely nothing about light. There is only one demand to be made of the definition of simultaneity, namely, that in every real case it must supply us with an empirical decision as to whether or not the conception that has to be defined is fulfilled. That my definition satisfies this demand is indisputable. That light requires the same time to traverse the path A —> M as for the path B —> M is in reality neither a supposition nor a hypothesis about the physical nature of light, but a stipulation which I can make of my own freewill in order to arrive at a definition of simultaneity.”

-Einstein

[link to www.bartleby.com]
341923

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06/13/2009 08:04 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
in relativity "c" is instantaneous. "c" is not the speed of visible light.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

plenty goes faster than visible light. ultraviolet, x, and gamma rays, and beyond...it is infinite.
Einstein new this, and had to define "c" as instantaneous, which is why nothing can go faster than instantaneous...or it would go backwards in time and bend space-time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701363

bsflag

You don't really understand that pic you posted do you? It says nothing about the speed of the different types of energy. It shows only frequency and wavlength. EVERYTHING on that diagram travels at the speed of light.
Just when you think batshit crazy can't get any crazier Emily
goes and ups the ante.
Normal Is Subjective

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06/13/2009 08:06 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Dammit Jim! I told you that Scottish git you call an engineer was drunk again!
I thought I'd beat the inevitibility of death to death just a little bit.
nomuse (NLI)
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06/13/2009 08:28 PM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
This underlines a basic problem facing science fiction writers -- a problem even if you stay entirely within Newtonian physics.

The problem is, anything that makes a decent spaceship, makes an even better weapon.

Let me break this down a little. Space is big, as the Douglas Adams quote goes. Distances between even the planets of our Solar System are vast, and gravity is a bitch.

The amount of energy you've got to put into the Space Shuttle just to get it up to a dinky near-Earth orbit and do some work is that amount that gets the shuttle moving at about 7.8 kilometers per second (add about another 2 kips worth for gravitational and atmospheric drag before you get there.)

As comparison, a military rifle sends a round downrange at a mere .9 kips or so.

And kinetic energy goes up by the SQUARE of the velocity. If a rifle bullet hit you at the speed of the Space Shuttle, it wouldn't make a hole; it would disintegrate you, and blow up the room around you as well.

And that's just for dinky low-orbit stuff. Now imagine the poor science fiction writer who wants to have some cute little two-seater runabout a couple can take out of their driveway for a romantic dinner on Mars, and return in time for work on Monday.

For the kind of quick, inefficient travel you'd want for a piece of fiction, you need a lot of power contained within that ship. And to make it a simple "turn the key and fly into space" it all has to be packed into the gas tanks.

Our little two-seater runabout contains more energy than a Saturn V stack. The little engine puts out, over the romantic weekend, something comparable to the electrical usage of the entire East Coast of the United States. In summer.

(Yes, probes like Voyager get to the outer planets on a lot less juice. But they do so with highly efficient transfer orbits and finicky little gravitational assists and a hell of a lot of time. If your space-hopping villain has just kidnapped the heroine's boyfriend, and she is charging off to the rescue on her own ship, you really don't want her to spend the next twenty years in transit!)



So the first problem is that this plot-handy little starship could, in the wrong hands, be a devastating weapon. Point the nose at New York instead of Mars, and you would take out a lot more than a couple of measely skyscrapers. All it takes is one interstellar trucker falling asleep at the wheel, and the incoming Exxon Valdez strikes Earth like the Chixslaub meteorite.

So good-bye to privately owned spacecraft, space-cabs, romantic space tramp steamers with drunken captains and a single greasy mechanic. Those craft are going to be under more locks and regulations and permissive fire links than a nuclear warhead.

The second problem is, if you can put that kind of power in a Space Prius, just imagine what you could put in a missile if you wanted to!



And that's just dealing with solar system distances. Try to get to other stars, and things get far, far worse. (And there's the not-so-little problem of causality that also rears it's head when you start going faster than light...)
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 06:10 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Using dark energy, no one would survive.


If they did, they would never be the same because they would've moved into the dimension infested with things you don't want to know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701646


Stupid people like you always ruin everything
zepa

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09/18/2012 06:19 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
imho they are looking at the whole thing the wrong way
they are looking to move faster

the real problem is the time it takes

if you could remove yourself from time speed=distance

yes its a time machine but imho its no crazier than talking about traveling at the speed of light

the added bonus of removing yourself from time would be not having to think about even grains of dust hitting you at light speed(im guessing that not in time =not in space time)


as far as physics can say is time slows the faster you go but what if it also slows as you gain energy (time is an expression of energy)
NightWisp

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09/18/2012 06:20 AM

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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
We are already sucked into a black hole. Obama did it.
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 06:55 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Jesus, just let it. Either we stay cavemen and kill each other on this little rock, or we try to develop FTL travel and take the chance of becoming something greater. At least if it gets us, we'll have gone fighting, not slowly dying or killing each other or succumbing to Islamic hoardes or the forces of other regressive fundie organizations.
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 06:59 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. - Genesis 8:22
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 07:00 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Black Hole = bsflagbsflagbsflag = Pure Imagination
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 07:14 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
no big deal at all :)
TPTB are sucking us already.. i would welcome such an event
banana2
UndercoverAlien

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09/18/2012 07:28 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Using dark energy, no one would survive.


If they did, they would never be the same because they would've moved into the dimension infested with things you don't want to know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701646




That's exactly what the movie "Event Horizon" is all about! The only difference is that the warp drive device is inside the ship.

Perhaps is what the "scientists" behind this warp drive idea, want to do: Suck the entire Earth into a black hole and send it to some hellish dimension.

Last Edited by UndercoverAlien on 09/18/2012 07:33 AM
"Do or do not. There is no try." (Yoda)
UndercoverAlien

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09/18/2012 07:33 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
Black Hole = bsflagbsflagbsflag = Pure Imagination
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23991237


iamwith
"Do or do not. There is no try." (Yoda)
Anonymous Coward
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09/18/2012 07:37 AM
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Re: Scientists warn: Warp drive engine could suck Earth into black hole
It's great to know what all that education is being
"spent" on.
Can you imagine a greater waste of time than getting
to the end of your life and having nothing but a pile
of science fiction mathematics papers to show for it?

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