Did the Koran actually say Jesus was Not Crucified???

Why the Jewish/Christian orthodoxy reject the Koran

Its all about Jesus the Messiah

There has been many discussions by Jews and Christians regarding the Koran. In recent times there has been an emphasis on Koran and violence and Koran and freedom and Koran and women. Although I have dealt with the issue of violence and freedom in my other posts, I will talk about another issue which I think is absolutely crucial in understanding why the Jews and Christians can never accept the Koran. There are of cource many other reasons why people question the Koran, and certainly in the history and current reality of many adherents of the so called Islamic faith do raise issues regarding frredom and women and violence. But my main concern is about these two religious traditions and why the real issues that seperate them from the Koran are rarely highlited.

Though these two religions reject each other and are odds with one another but they do have one thing in common regarding the Koran. My purpose here is to explain the role of Jesus in shaping the attitude these two religioons have regarding the Koran.

Those who pay attention can notice that there is constant attempt by Christians, and here I mean the orthodoxy, to paint Islam as somehow different from either Christianity or even Judaism. Muhammad is never compared with any of the prophets you read in the Bible. There is always an attempt even to distance themselves from the God of the Koran. The reality is these differences they try to propagate are fakes. Because the real difference and point of contention between the Koran and these two religions is on what they believe about Jesus and what the Koran says about Jesus. Both these religious traditions could never accept the Jesus reality as presented in the Koran. Once again these are not the only issues, but as a Koranist who does not confirm to Sunni/Shia sectarianism, my intention is to highlight their rejection of the Koran. I will show how regardless of any other issues, the Jesus of the Koran stand in stark contradiction to the central theological core of these two faiths, Judaism and Christianity as practiced and understood by the orthodoxies.

The Koran says it came to confirm the previous scriptures:

5.46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of God is on those without Faith.

If the Koran came to confirm the Torah and Gospel and speaks of them as Divine revelations, why would both the Jews and Christians have a serious problem with the Koran? The answer is Jesus.

The Christian orthodoxy is built around the divinity of Jesus, and the Jewsih orthodoxy is built on the awaiting of the Messiah and their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah and indeed of his miraculous birth. Although these are not the only issues the orthodoxies are structured around, without them the orthodoxy can not maintain itself as it is.

So what does the Koran say about Jesus?

When the angel said, "Mary, God gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, -high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will". When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

"Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'Hoe shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed He has made me ,wherever/may be; and He has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive. "Maryam 19:29-33)

5.110.Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

This will be absolutely rejected by the Jewish Rabbis. This not only confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus but also confirms he was the awaited messiah as promised in the Hebrew Bible. The Jews rejected Jesus and still do and these verses alone are more than enough to convince the Judaic orthodoxy to reject the Koran outright. Nothing stands against the Judaic orthodoxy more than these verses.

As far as the Christian orthodoxy:


[u]"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 19:88-93)

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, 'Be' and he was. (Al-Imran 3:59)

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

This is of course in stark contrast and indeed a denounciation of the Christian orthodoxy which is structured on the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity. These verses alone completely nullifies that orthodoxy in its core theological understanding.

So both these religions can not accept that Jesus was the awaited Messiah born of a miraculous nature but yet human and completely unassociated physically with the Almighty. Yet these issues are never discussed and distractions are usually presented. Of course these are not the only issues since Islam has a sectarian component as represented by the Sunni/Shia religions which rely on oral traditions, known as hadiths, that dominate their religions and in many cases contradict the Koran. But the verses I presented today I am sure will clearly indicate that theverses about Jesus in the Koran by itself is enough for the Judiac and Christian orthodoxy to reject the Koran outright.

So there you have it.

Because Jesus is God, or Allah as you say, and the Gospel is the Word of God. So any additions are useless or even Antichristic.

The Koran in its present form is not from GOD.

As for the Gospel

Jesus is reported to have said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (John 14:9-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20) Again, while Jesus does proclaim “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30), he also prays for his followers, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” (John 17:21) Whatever the nature of the “oneness” Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians – in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.

Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as “equal with God” – John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 – the Greek word translated “equal” is isos, which means “on the same level” or “of the same rank,” never “identical.” The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what “everybody knows” about Jesus’ claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos” with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh” with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was” – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos” is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with” God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:


“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God” is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians; [link to praxeology.net]

They are just saying that its a myth and they know their is a reason for why and how they took part of the myth but it will only make sense to the people that understand enough to do something with the secret knowledge

Whats the myth?

i feeling david copperfield show in jesus crucified drama

Oh, and what is? The New King James Version of the Bible?

The Qu'ran is one of the most unchanged works of religious canon in history.

Your base assumption is that there was a Jesus to crucify. Examine your assumptions.

Haaa Haaa Haaa!!!!!!
I guess that makes it devine!!!

Does it? I didn't say that.

O my God!
Do you mean that the Quran in an earlier original was from God!
Consequently, Muhammad was a true Prophet from God!
O my God!




I wanna whisper a little secret into your ears: The version of the Quran now is exactly the same as those from the time of the Sahabah (Prophet's Companions)-see Othman's codecies of Madinian Mushaf-; it hasn't changed. Of course your experience with Christian Scripture is catastrophic so you think that the Quran suffered change as your own Books, big No.

Even though I am not a Muslim, you are absolutely correct. In fact, the only true "Qu'ran" in written in the original language of Arabic. There is no "King James Version," nor is there a "New" one.

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)


Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)


Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)











You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

All religions (at least an extreme majority) have been used to shed blood. Maybe that should persuade us to take a look at them as a whole?

The Quran and the Sunnah are very precise about Jesus' not being crucified. Like Ahmad Deedat said, Jesus was cricificted. The Passion of Christ was kind of real, it kind of happened, except that the hero was not Jesus of Nazreth....It was somebody given his shape.

Not Islam, have a personal reading and read Muslim explanations on them and you will see.

I understand that the Qu'ran speaks out against violence more than most other religious canons (Bible included), but it has still been manipulated through it's history to further assorted political goals. Do I really need to cite these?

Good point, just read Sahih Bukhari's hadith collection.

But the topic is about Jesus and crucifixion. The Koran came to CONFIRM the Torah and Gospel but attacked the Trinity and the Jewish Talmud. Then the Muslims made up the hadith and abandoned the Koran.

The Torah is not just a book of theology, its the story of the People of Israel. There is no violence in the OT, this was the common laws of the time it came. We are no different today anyways, just look at the Iran-Iran war, the Russia-Afghanistan war, WW1 and WW2, Vietnam, Darfur and many other wars that cause a lot more destruction than the people of the OT's time.

Hundreds of millions of people have learned the incredible stories and wisdom found in the OT. The Koran never came to abrogate the previous scriptures and the Koran says Muhammad was no more than a messenger as many were before him. Not everything Muslims say is what Muhammad actually preached.

The Torah, Gospel and Koran are one faith.

.

Chapter 5(Al Ma'ida)

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers
45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The fact that all religions have been manipulated by humans to some extent is agreed upon-Islam being the least manipulated-

Yet , this does not mean that Islam incites violence. The Bible apparantly does it so strongly. The book is a chronicle for bloodyness. The Quran is another story.

Ah! Extremely interesting point/perspective!

Sahih Bukhari's hadith collection was your recommendation? Definitely going to read it. Mine is "Islamic Awakening, Between Rejection and Extremism," by Yusuf al Qaradawi (New English Edition by A. S. Al Shaikh-Ali, Ph. D. and Mohamed B.E. Wasfy)

Brilliant.

Well, we're on a very arguable topic. We do both agree on many aspects, though. :)

You apparantly need some information correceted;
The Quran's confirmation of the Torah and the Gospel is actually the same as denying the Trinity and the Talmud




Muslims did not make up the Hadith and the science of Hadith methodology and its branches shows how catious they were with registering prophetic hadith. There was scholars whose occupation only is to judge and rate all those involved in hadith narration and give them ratings like:
authentic, trustworthy, upright, weak, liar, etc
Ahadith themselves are rated; there are authentic, good and weak ahadith among many other gradings





You said:
There is no violence in the OT, this was the common laws of the time it came. We are no different today anyways, just look at the Iran-Iran war, the Russia-Afghanistan war, WW1 and WW2, Vietnam, Darfur and many other wars that cause a lot more destruction than the people of the OT's time.





We are not talking about a book by Stalin overhere. We suppose that the author of divine scripture is God. The example and lessons the Bible taches are horrificly repugnant and contradictory. A divine revelation is not supposed to be a chronichle which narrates events purposely



and said:
The Koran never came to abrogate the previous scriptures and the Koran says Muhammad was no more than a messenger as many were before him. Not everything Muslims say is what Muhammad actually preached.

The Torah, Gospel and Koran are one faith.





I agree with that except that the original Torah and gospel are missing!

Just to know how far the collection of Ahadith was scientifically conducted, Al Bukhari gathered 600.000 Ahadith and authenticised only 6000 of them. Some unauthentic ahadithes are agreeable in content, close to fulfilling requirements of authentic ahadith but were ruled out in order to let doubt infiltrate the prophetic ahadith.

LOL!!!!!

Funny thread.....

I mean: purposelessly

A believer in today's Bible shouldn't say so. The very belief in this:
[link to www.islamway.com]


is hilarious!

Oh really? You need to look at the Sana'a manuscripts

Discovered in 1972 they are the oldest Koran texts ever found,some dating back to Mo himself.Fragments revealed aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God

Give me a site showing these manuscripts which have never been heard of, especially that existing manuscripts are typical with today's Quran




Again, not a Bible believer would say so when the contradiction between christian manuscripts -which are not the original scripture but mere translations- contradictions are glaring and recognised! How dare you!

Gerd Puin was the head of a restoration project, commissioned by the Yemeni government, which spent a significant amount of time examining the ancient Qur'anic manuscripts discovered in Sana'a, Yemen, in 1972.

Here is a great article on the find and its implications with a quote form the head of the Yemeni government
restoration project

The Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad," he says. "Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants."

[link to www.theatlantic.com]