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Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?

 
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 05:36 AM
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Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
Was Turin Shroud faked by Leonardo da Vinci?
The Turin Shroud was faked by Renaissance artist Leonardo da Vinci using pioneering photographic techniques and a sculpture of his own head, a television documentary claims.


By Alastair Jamieson
Published: 7:49AM BST 01 Jul 2009
The Telegraph

Shroud was created by Leonardo da Vinci from a model of his face, it is claimed.

A study of facial features suggests the image on the relic is actually da Vinci's own face which could have been projected into the cloth.

The artefact has been regarded by generations of believers as the face of the crucified Jesus who was wrapped in it, but carbon-dating by scientists points to its creation in the Middle Ages.

American artist Lillian Schwartz, a graphic consultant at the School of Visual Arts in New York who came to prominence in the 1980s when she matched the face of the Mona Lisa to a Leonardo self-portrait, used computer scans to show that the face on the Shroud has the same dimensions to that of da Vinci.

“It matched. I'm excited about this,” she said. “There is no doubt in my mind that the proportions that Leonardo wrote about were used in creating this Shroud's face.”

The claims is made in a Channel Five documentary, to be shown on Wednesday night, that describes how da Vinci could have scorched his facial features on to the linen of the Shroud using a sculpture of his face and a camera obscura – an early photographic device.

The programme says the fabric could have been hung over a frame in a blacked-out room and coated it with silver sulphate, a substance readily available in 15th century Italy which would have made it light-sensitive.

When the sun's rays passed through a lens in one of the walls, da Vinci’s facial shape would have been projected on to the material, creating a permanent image.

Lynn Picknett, a Shroud researcher and author, said: “The faker of the shroud had to be a heretic, someone with no fear of faking Jesus’ holy redemptive blood.

“He had to have a grasp of anatomy and he had to have at his fingertips a technology which would completely fool everyone until the 20th century.

"He had a hunger to leave something for the future, to make his mark for the future, not just for the sake of art or science but for his ego."

Art historian Professor Nicholas Allen, of Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University in South Africa, has called for more tests on the Shroud for the presence of silver sulphate, which causes a reaction with the sun's UV rays.

He said: "If you look at the Shroud of Turin as it appears to the naked eye, you see a negative image of a human being, and if you take a photograph of that you produce a positive image of that human being, which means the shroud is acting as a negative.

"That in itself is a very good clue that it was made photographically."

Radiocarbon dating in 1988 showed the cloth was made between 1260 and 1390.

The programme explains the theory that da Vinci's forgery was commissioned to replace an earlier version that was exposed as a poor fake, which had been bought by the powerful Savoy family in 1453 only to disappear for 50 years. When it returned to public view, it was hailed as a genuine relic, and experts say it was actually the artist's convincing replica.

American Professor Larissa Tracy, of Longwood University in Virginia, told the programme: "Da Vinci had the necessary skills. He knew enough about anatomy and about the physical muscular structure of the body. Da Vinci had all the skills to create an image like the shroud. If anybody had the capacity to work with camera obscura or early photographic technique, it was Leonardo Da Vinci."

However Professor John Jackson, director of the Turin Shroud Centre of Colorado, who believes the item dates from the time of Jesus's crucifixion, dismissed the programme’s findings and said the earliest known record of the Shroud appears on a commemorative medallion struck in the mid-14th century and on display at the Cluny Museum Paris, he added.

“It clearly shows clerics holding up the shroud and is dated to around 100 years before Leonardo was born. There is no evidence whatsoever that Leonardo was involved in the shroud.”

The professor believes the radiocarbon dating of the shroud was wrong because the sample was contaminated.
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[link to www.telegraph.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 06:18 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
The herring bone weave in the cloth was one that was used in the Middle East during biblical times. This and the presence in the material of pollens of types of flowers that grow around Jerusalem suggest that the cloth originated from the place and time in which Jesus lived. But this does not mean that it is his burial shroud, as some have inferred. The perfectionist artist and inventor Da Vinci could have used linen that had been brought back to Europe by pilgrims.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 06:21 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
I don't think his intention was to "fake" anything.
I think it was Da Vinci having a go at photography using what was available to him at the time.

It's a self portrait.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 06:23 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
How lacklustre and insignificant today's artists seem in comparison to the Renaissance geniuses...
Simon Moon

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07/02/2009 06:30 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
Of course because there was not "one historical jesus". different discussion, next topic.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 06:35 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
No. It is clearly NOT a self-portrait but a representation of Jesus with his wounds as described in the New Testament. Some argue that Leonardo used his own head and a corpse (he used these for his anatomical drawings). There is evidence for this, because the head is too small for the length of the body. He may have made the image in two stages - one for his head and one for the body, making an error in the scale of projection of the images onto the cloth impregnated with a photo-sensitive chemical.

Evidence that a trial run was carried out for the photographic process was provided a few years back by an Italian physicist, who found a second, much fainter face on the back of the cloth.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 06:39 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
no silly
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 06:54 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
Near the end of the fifteenth century, about 130 years after the Shroud's first public exhibition in Europe, Leonardo da Vinci described a camera obscura (a pinhole camera) in his notebooks. Aristotle (384-322 BCE) understood the principle and so did a tenth century Arabian scholar, Alhazen of Basra, who used a tent-sized camera obscura for observing the cosmos. In Alhazen's tent images were projected onto a wall where they could be traced or copied by hand. It wasn't until 1727 when Johann Heinrich Schulze discovered that silver mixed with nitric acid created a photosensitive compound that turned dark when exposed to light. And, it wasn't until 1816 when Nicéphore Niépce used a camera obscura with a sensitized paper to create an image. In 1834, Henry Fox Talbot created the first stable photographic negative on paper soaked in silver chloride.

It is not impossible that a deep student of alchemy like Leonardo could have known about photo-sensitive chemicals like silver nitrate. He was a closet heretic who scorned the Catholic Church's exploitation of relics of saints in order to maintain its control of the religious loyalties of people. Tricking the church with a phony burial cloth would have given him great delight.

The usual argument for Leonardo not being the fabricator of the Shroud of Turin is that it went first on display in 1354 - about a hundred years before he was born(shortly afterwards, a French bishop declared it to be a fake, would you believe?!). However, no one can be sure that this was the same shroud. Perhaps it was replaced because the original (itself a fake) got too tatty to be displayed to the faithful? We just do not know the exact provenance of the Shroud of Turin, so the argument that Leonardo was not around at the time it first appeared is not conclusive.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 06:55 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
no silly
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 716357

What is that vacuous remark supposed to mean?
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 06:58 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
no silly

What is that vacuous remark supposed to mean?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 696544

Just answering that I think it's silly to think that Leonardo da Vinci, as talented as he was, did not fake the Shroud of Turin
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 06:59 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
How lacklustre and insignificant today's artists seem in comparison to the Renaissance geniuses...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 365611

So true! Look at the banal rubbish of someone like David Hockney. My own daughter paints better than he does. Most modern artists are media whores made famous by greedy art gallery directors wanting to make a fast buck.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 07:04 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
no silly

What is that vacuous remark supposed to mean?

Just answering that I think it's silly to think that Leonardo da Vinci, as talented as he was, did not fake the Shroud of Turin
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 716357

O.K. Now I understand you. I agree. The trouble of course is that there is no smoking gun that proves any of the competing theories about how the image on the shroud was formed. Evidence that some think proves the image is that of Jesus can easily be debunked by others. So the issue will remain inconclusive even if new carbon-dating tests prove that the cloth is 2000 years old.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 07:22 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
The following biblical passages indicate that Jesus's body was wrapped in cloth, not simply covered by a shroud and that a number of cloths were used for the binding:

John 19: 40 (RSV)
"They took the body of Jesus, and BOUND IT in linen CLOTHS with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."

Luke 23:52-53 (RSV)
"This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and WRAPPED IT in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb..."

Mark 15:46 (RSV)
"And he brought a linen shroud, and taking him down, WRAPPED HIM in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb..."

Matthew 27:59 (RSV)
"And Joseph took the body, and WRAPPED IT in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb..."

If believes accept that the account of the life and death of Jesus is historically accurate, they have to reconcile their belief that the Shroud of Turin is his burial shroud with the various statements in the New Testament that his body was wrapped, not draped, in cloth. The significance of this is of course that a sheet wound several times around a corpse would have displayed copies of it lying side by side (however the image was made), not the single imprint on the Shroud of Turin. The biblical evidence therefore argues against the shroud being a genuine burial cloth of ANYONE.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 07:32 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
Study the Mandala...it'll show you the shroud existed long before Da Vinci...

/HTH...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 07:36 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
Study the Mandala...it'll show you the shroud existed long before Da Vinci...

/HTH...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 561632

Er, the what?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/02/2009 07:48 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
If you mean this:
[link to images.google.com]

then I'd say it was irrelevant to the issue of this thread.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 07:52 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
How lacklustre and insignificant today's artists seem in comparison to the Renaissance geniuses...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 365611

thats a silly thing to say, thats like saying todays music is insignificant cause people don't write Mozart. We just live in a different time, different age!
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 07:58 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
How lacklustre and insignificant today's artists seem in comparison to the Renaissance geniuses...

thats a silly thing to say, thats like saying todays music is insignificant cause people don't write Mozart. We just live in a different time, different age!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 688171


That's a fair point.
I guess I was really referring to the artists' personalities, in the two different periods.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 08:20 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
What you say is not consistent with the scientific tests made on the shroud. Someone making that thing would have to be an absolute genius with vast resources at his disposal.
Anonymous Coward
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07/02/2009 08:22 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
How lacklustre and insignificant today's artists seem in comparison to the Renaissance geniuses...

thats a silly thing to say, thats like saying todays music is insignificant cause people don't write Mozart. We just live in a different time, different age!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 688171

MOST so-called art of today IS insignificant! There is no constant progress on the history of humanity. Regressive phases happen.
Anonymous Coward
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07/31/2009 09:14 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
OP, instead of self-proclaimed "shroud researchers" trying to peddle their books-- like Pickett, you might want to consider the findings of forensic experts like Dr. Zugibe.

[link to www.e-forensicmedicine.net]
Preacher Zero

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07/31/2009 09:24 AM

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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
What you say is not consistent with the scientific tests made on the shroud. Someone making that thing would have to be an absolute genius with vast resources at his disposal.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 715964


Like perhaps... Leonardo DaVinci, with the patronage of a king? O.o
'Magically Delicious'
Anonymous Coward
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07/31/2009 10:14 AM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
What you say is not consistent with the scientific tests made on the shroud. Someone making that thing would have to be an absolute genius with vast resources at his disposal.


Like perhaps... Leonardo DaVinci, with the patronage of a king? O.o
 Quoting: Preacher Zero



Not even a king's patronage could explain or offer the technology needed to fake this artifact.
Anonymous Coward
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07/31/2009 01:45 PM
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Re: Did Leonardo da Vinci fake the Shroud of Turin?
From:
Basic Typology of techniques used to rewrite History chapters
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

Concerning the "NO" type, no footage used: as a consequence of the Laws of End Times Reductionism, in the last days, after people accepted the Mark and were reduced to beasts, the illuminati no more need to fake all "documents", since beasts will repeat that "black is white, day is night", each time the elders tell them to do it.

Example: Ine of the chapters used to create "Jesus, the lover of Mary Magdalene", was reduced to reuse an existing and not faked historical document, the painting "Last Supper" by Leonardo da Vinci, and telling to the sheep that the man seen at the side of Jesus is not an apostle but it is a woman, more precisely Mary Magdalene.