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Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found
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nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 711198
7/4/2009 9:55 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Instead, they'll focus on the lifetime and decay particles, seeing if they can do the experiment the Lab did, but better, with better data, and stuff the Lab missed.
Exactly: independent reproducibility of results, a requirement for scientific acceptance. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
That's not what I said.
Unless there's indication in the papers, the documentation, the general practice, or the underlying mathematics that suggest they were wrong.
Lack of reproducibility is itself a strong argument for error or fraud. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
I suspect the scientific community would disagree with you. And reproducing experiments is not done -- not the way you think it is. Reproducing results is.
Similar happened over the mass of the electron, if I'm remembering right; the wrong value was accepted until new theory indicated it should be something else.
A much better example is the number of human chromosomes. In 1923, the preeminent cytologist Theophilus Painter published his count of the number of chromosomes in an ordinary human cell: 48. Because of his "reputation," 33 years of researchers were unwilling to publicly disagree with him. They all claimed to count all 48 of those chromosomes!
Only in 1956 did Tjio and Levan have the courage to point out that there were only 46 human chromosomes, despite others' delusions and deception.
To be fair, Painter himself was simply making his best estimate. The deception occurred over the succeeding 33 years, as researcher after researcher fudged the number rather than publicly challenge Painter's. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
The case I was thinking of was similar. There was again a long history of attempts to refine the original data that assumed he'd gotten it right to the first significant digit; so they actually threw out test runs that were higher than his.
It does happen. But your characterization is suspect; it wasn't that no-one was in fear of their jobs. It wasn't even that they were afraid of being laughed at (although that was clearer to the mark), it was the original scientist had such a reputation the, generally young undergrad teams, that were trying to improve his results couldn't believe he'd made a mistake but their results were perfect.
There was enough error in the methods used at the time that no-one was absolutely certain of their values. So there was a certain sense in bowing to the guy that they all knew ran a tight lab and did things well.
And, interestingly enough, when it was revisited it was discovered -- I believe the original scientist spotted it -- that he'd used the wrong value for air resistance -- so he'd made his mistake through following a _different_ number that hadn't been rigorously checked.
Most often, when this kind of long-standing experimental result is overturned, what is found are methodological flaws; assumptions that shouldn't have been made, dirty test equipment, failure to account for environmental factors, etc.
Hrm. Actually, a brief bit of reading about the Painter case reveals that the methods simply didn't exist for thirty years. It wasn't so much people were faking their chromosome counts, it was that it wasn't technically possible to get a good figure until new methods were developed around 1953. At that point, the old figure fell like a tenpin.
You forgot the most obvious: "You're a liar and a scoundrel." Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
That is assumed less in the sciences than it should be. Look up Wakefield sometime. It is a flaw. |
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nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 711198
7/4/2009 9:56 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Are you claiming that no Russian has ever been in an American Spacecraft (or vice versa?)
Pay attention! We're talking about the Apollo program. No Russian ever flew to the moon in an Apollo space capsule. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
You never heard of Apollo/Soyuz? |
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nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 711198
7/4/2009 10:03 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
So you think that Apollo and the Moon mission was a science project?
So you admit that the Apollo program was not a scientific endeavor? Thank you! That's a major point of agreement, and something that the NASA fanboys continually fail to admit. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
Mmm.... I know you are a wanna-be lawyer and all, and you like to reduce nuanced answers to yes or no, but....not exactly.
To GET to the Moon was applied science. Engineering. There was some new science at the time, but largely it was a technical problem.
The difficulty in getting to the Moon after that was ENTIRELY a technical problem. Or, better put, a practical problem. The world scientific and engineering community knew the science involved, and saw the engineering solutions Apollo had used. What they lacked, what we still lack, was the capability.
It's the difference between knowing how it works, knowing how to build it, and building it. The first was never a real issue. The second hasn't been a real issue since the early 60's. The last is an issue right now.
Now, as far as the actual ACT of getting to the Moon; yes, it was scientific, in the same way sending a group of zoolologists up the Amazon is scientific. The astronauts made a number of scientific observations while they were there (and enroute as well).
Based on what they learned, in fact, the least-favored of the three then-current theories of the formation of the Moon came to be widely accepted. So a lot was learned by going there. And in the process of going there.
Sorry again for the nuanced answer, but only politicians and hoax believers see the benefit in reducing everything to simple answers. |
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Skeptic the First
User ID: 718302
7/4/2009 10:32 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Actually, a brief bit of reading about the Painter case reveals that the methods simply didn't exist for thirty years. It wasn't so much people were faking their chromosome counts, it was that it wasn't technically possible to get a good figure until new methods were developed around 1953. At that point, the old figure fell like a tenpin. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 711198
Your summary is a typical Establishment whitewash of the issue.
Here is a slightly better account of the fiasco:
[link to papa.indstate.edu]
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Ford and Hamerton reviewed both Painter's and Tjio & Levan's work. They raised a new question of why had so many scientists miscounted the chromosomes. Ford and Hamerton cited the personal observation of Dr. Hansen-Melander who kept finding 46 chromosomes in human liver embryo cells. Hansen-Melander's study was discontinued and never reported because 48 chromosomes could not be found. How many other scientists abandoned research because they could not find 48 chromosomes?
...
From the mid 1930's to the early 1950's cytologists did not return to counting chromosomes.
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In other words:
1) Honest researchers could not publish their work because it would have challenged powerful people.
2) Lazy-butt researchers bumbled for decades rather than do what scientific method requires: reproduce the results, or throw them out. |
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Skeptic the First
User ID: 718302
7/4/2009 10:33 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
No Russian ever flew to the moon in an Apollo space capsule.
You never heard of Apollo/Soyuz? Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 711198
Do you actually believe that the Apollo/Soyuz linkup went to the moon? Even NASA doesn't claim that. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 712683
7/4/2009 10:42 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
And what makes you brainiacs think NASA is going to show you the *real* pictures of anything?
Real pictures have real information, which is at a, ah, premium. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 439828
7/4/2009 10:44 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
No Russian ever flew to the moon in an Apollo space capsule.
You never heard of Apollo/Soyuz?
Do you actually believe that the Apollo/Soyuz linkup went to the moon? Even NASA doesn't claim that. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
Don't worry nomuse is getting a little confused, only because it is his potty sitting time, he gets cranky if he doesn't do his doo doos on time. |
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nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 711198
7/4/2009 11:35 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
No Russian ever flew to the moon in an Apollo space capsule.
You never heard of Apollo/Soyuz?
Do you actually believe that the Apollo/Soyuz linkup went to the moon? Even NASA doesn't claim that. Quoting: Skeptic the First 718302
Words, Skeptic. Use the actual words.
As a lawyer you are a complete failure. You don't just assume what you hope the language of the contract or the law or the interpretation implies. You look at the exact meaning of every word.
I never said any cosmonauts traveled to the Moon. I never said any cosmonaut was in any of the spacecraft or missions of Apollo 8 through 16.
What I alluded to is that cosmonauts were permitted inside, in flight, hardware identical to and taken from the Apollo program.
The fact that you made your own interpretation is your problem. My words did not give you the leeway to interpret it in the way you did. But if you understood any of the history you denigrate, you WOULD have been able to interpret what I said the way I explicated it above. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 616149
7/4/2009 11:39 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
yes, we went to the moon
no, we didn't use conventional rockets to get there
yes, we used reverse engineered flying saucers
yes, we modified the moon landing footage to hide what is really on the moon, which will be revealed at a later date.
so the footage was half-faked but the landing was real. |
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nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 711198
7/4/2009 11:51 PM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Actually, mea culpa...I didn't look close enough at the exact phrasing you used. I assumed you'd cut-and-paste again, so I just underlined that yes, cosmonauts had been inside American space hardware. Looking again at the exact phraseology you used, you did insert the concept of "....to the Moon" in the middle of what I was saying. And I missed it when I made my reply.
Probably because we have two very different mental models here. You still seem stuck on the idea of a lunar mission as being completely different from anything that has ever been done before or since. I see it, meanwhile, in the context of ongoing space exploration, and associated aeronautics and space sciences.
So I don't always anticipate when you are going to swerve suddenly from a general case about, say, behavior of a rocket in vacuum, to believing that we must and can only talk about a specific rocket that was specifically ON THE MOON. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 704316
7/7/2009 6:56 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
NEIL A = ALIEN a corundrum |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 641695
7/7/2009 7:02 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Sounds like Nasa and the powers that be, have finally edited out any inconsistencies associated with the lie known as the moon landing.
Anyone that would believe the master tapes were misplaced for 40 years, and then magically found during this day and age of CGI effects, film editing, etc, and wants to now release those " claimed : original tapes , needs a lobotomy.
Perhaps those tapes should be labeled as :
heavily altered and edited to suit the purposes of the elite in charge. |
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inca=chinitial
User ID: 720082
7/7/2009 7:06 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Lemme see, they are gonna show them at the 40th celebration of the event because they found them just now by coincidence? Hmmm |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 641695
7/7/2009 7:07 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Lemme see, they are gonna show them at the 40th celebration of the event because they found them just now by coincidence? Hmmm Quoting: inca=chinitial 720082
Yeah, funny aint it ?
and dummies in society fall for this bullshit. |
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inca=chinitial
User ID: 720082
7/7/2009 7:07 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
Like Martian Catbox using high pass filters, wrong angle of camera, bad illumination, after a Mars storm swept the planet? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 641695
7/7/2009 7:10 AM | | Re: Missing Moon Landing Tapes Found | Quote |
The more and more I study so called history, the more obvious it becomes to me, that SOME OTHER words for history are
LIES/AGENDAS/DECEPTIONS |
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