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The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!

 
NASA LIES
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08/05/2009 02:14 AM
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The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Apollo 11 could never have reached the MOON 384,000 KM away, ha,ha,ha. Here's the most simple to understand physics lesson you'll ever get on propulsion and thrust.

The clip shows how the thrust escaping the barrel of the gun is met with resistance by the air to equal the reaction necessary for the gun to kickback. Just like when a Rocket blasts-off from earth, the thrust of the Rocket is met by the same air offering the reaction for the Rocket to travel opposite to the thrust. Newton's Law



In Space, there would be no kickback for the gun.

In Space Rockets can't fly, neither The Shuttle, APOLLO 11, The Galileo etc,etc.

Look at this clip at the 40 sec mark, 42, 47 and 58, you will see the Trust of the weapon puncturing the pressure of our atmosphere causing the weapon to move in the opposite direction of the Trust.



Newton's Third Law died in Space!


Newton’s Third Law: states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

For The Shuttle engine thrust to have an equal reaction and opposite to the Spacecraft, there has to be an opposite to equal that reaction, there has to be an opposite to create an equal reaction, there has to be an opposite to react off of. Space according to NASA is a vacuum devoid of any matter to offer any resistance to equal the opposite action.

No resistance offered = no reaction to equal the opposite action.


NASA MURDERED SIR ISAAC NEWTON -- YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
nomind

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08/05/2009 02:18 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
So in space, instead of pushing against the air, the thrust is generated by inertia modification from the exhaust? Sure why not! Makes as much sense as your premise.

Note also that in the air... the thrusting might push against air.. but it is also trying to push throw air, as a counter-force, which is also not present in space.. So maybe the 2 balance out.. did you think about that?

But mostly your whole premise is based on a faulty understanding of space flight propulsion.

Enjoy
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Thread: Nibiru, or how to appear like you know what you are talking about
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:20 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Newton's Third Law. The skaters' forces on each other are equal in magnitude, and in opposite directions.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

In Space there is nothing because its a vacuum, this means entirely devoid of matter. No second skater to push off of to go the opposite direction. No resistance offered = no reaction to equal the opposite action. Meaning, the direction that the "thrust" is headed Saturn will "be heading" the opposite direction,

provided that there is an opposite to react off of,

provided that there is an opposite to equal the reaction,

provided that there is an opposite to create an equal reaction, like PRESSURE!!!!!!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:26 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
So in space, instead of pushing against the air, the thrust is generated by inertia modification from the exhaust? Sure why not! Makes as much sense as your premise.
 Quoting: nomind

OKAY CLOWN, push yourself around and see how far your stupidity goes.

The exhausts of the rocket are directed out by the NOZZLE, the nozzles don't produce the opposite reaction, because if this was the case then the nozzles would be as narrow as possible to limit waste of the middle thrust, an empty thrust that doesn't produce any reaction according to misguided understanding of flight dynamics.

[link to www.k-makris.gr]

ENJOY? Enjoy what? Being surrounded by idiots? I'm outta here soon, and when I'm gone the shit will hit the fan for those who conspired against GOD, so make bed Traitors, you will be sleeping with the Fallen, and they have Big Dicks.

Read my thread, "Fallen Angels have big dicks."


bump bump
doc
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08/05/2009 02:29 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
in 0 gravity and vacuum a release of pressure will cause thrust, infact you would need less pressure to cause thrust in a vacuum because the pressure difference would automatically be greater than on earth.

the recoil on a gun begins as soon as the cartridge is fired, its cause by the pressure in the cartridge and the weight of the projectile, some guns like that desert eagle have a gas operated bolt lock so the bold doesn't fire into your head, hence the recoil of the slide doesn't occur until the bullet and flash is most of the way and out of the barrel.





whatever bsflag
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 02:29 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
bsflag
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 02:32 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
I think most of the claims of the space program are bs but this theory you present has the water retaining capacity of a sieve and shows you do not have much knowledge on the subject. No offense, just stating the obvious. Rocket propulsion uses a form of afterburner to create a continuous explosion of fuel and oxygen ignited aft of the actual thrust assembly. By creating this artificial explosion, they have created an opposing force in which the exiting exhaust can then use to generate thrust. That will be exactly what they will present as a rebuttal to such an analysis and holds plenty of water in the world of physics peace
doc
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08/05/2009 02:35 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
and i suppose he didnt consider that in 0grav and vacuum an object would encounter almost no resistance making a small amount of thrust even more effective
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:38 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
in 0 gravity and vacuum a release of pressure will cause thrust, infact you would need less pressure to cause thrust in a vacuum because the pressure difference would automatically be greater than on earth.
 Quoting: doc 741801

There is always GRAVITY stupid, or did you forget about your other BULLSHIT called ORBIT?

And the clip clearly demonstrates the obvious for those who haven't sold their souls.


I AM THE PUNISHER -- NEVER FORGET I WILL ALWAYS WIN, ALWAYS!


bump bump
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:43 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
I think most of the claims of the space program are bs but this theory you present has the water retaining capacity of a sieve and shows you do not have much knowledge on the subject.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742702

That you play two faced comes as no surprised by those called Traitors.

No offense, just stating the obvious. Rocket propulsion uses a form of afterburner to create a continuous explosion of fuel and oxygen ignited aft of the actual thrust assembly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742702

You don't even know what an afterburner is.

By creating this artificial explosion, they have created an opposing force in which the exiting exhaust can then use to generate thrust. That will be exactly what they will present as a rebuttal to such an analysis and holds plenty of water in the world of physics peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742702

You need air pressure for the Thrust to bounce off in recoil for the Spacecraft to head in the opposite direction.


YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE, ALWAYS, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE LOSERS.

READ THE BOOK. (BoE)
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 02:48 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
go build your own rocket
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:49 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
and i suppose he didnt consider that in 0grav and vacuum an object would encounter almost no resistance making a small amount of thrust even more effective
 Quoting: doc 741801

LOST -- completely and utterly LOST

If the MOMENTUM of an initial trajectory is affected by an external force like Gravity, it begins to lose velocity.

"body in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an external force"

And if your dumb ass believes it doesn't lose any momentum because there is no air to reduce The Shuttle's speed then the fact that gravity pulls on that MOMENTUM continuously, it pulls it closer and closer and constantly towards earth meaning the center or DOWN and at some point The Shuttle will find itself rubbing on the atmosphere, causing friction, and therewith coming to a halt, or, on the ground.

Take your pick idiot.

bump bump
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2009 02:49 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
go build your own rocket
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742653

Go stick it in your azz..
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 02:53 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Oh punisher--- tsk tsk tsk- now run back home and go play in your sand box- leave these nice kids alone... BEFORE I HAVE TO OPEN A CAN OF "&#&*($(&%)%)**&*%$@!#"!!!
AstronutModerator
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Shuttle and ISS can't dock huh? How did they build ISS then? And more importantly, looks to me like amateurs with telescopes have proved that they DO dock:
[link to www.tracking-station.de]
What's the sound? Ah yes, the satisfying sound of punisher's world view collapsing all around him.
astrobanner2
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08/05/2009 10:24 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Shuttle and ISS can't dock huh? How did they build ISS then? And more importantly, looks to me like amateurs with telescopes have proved that they DO dock:
[link to www.tracking-station.de]
What's the sound? Ah yes, the satisfying sound of punisher's world view collapsing all around him.
 Quoting: Astronut

The Boeing 747 is the ISS -- take out all the wires and the guitar amplifiers, a perfect match.

[link to www.spaceinfo.com.au]
[link to blog.dotphys.net]


-- And why is the guy's hair in the supposed ISS standing up? Is he free-falling in the Boeing?

-- If the ISS free-falls sideways shouldn't his hair be going sideways?

-- Is he holding on because there's no padding and doesn't want to fall on his face once the ride is over?

-- Why build the ISS with all those wires? So astronauts stationed there for weeks can get all tangled up like a bug in a spiders web?
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 10:30 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Apollo 11 could never have reached the MOON 384,000 KM away, ha,ha,ha. Here's the most simple to understand physics lesson you'll ever get on propulsion and thrust.

The clip shows how the thrust escaping the barrel of the gun is met with resistance by the air to equal the reaction necessary for the gun to kickback. Just like when a Rocket blasts-off from earth, the thrust of the Rocket is met by the same air offering the reaction for the Rocket to travel opposite to the thrust. Newton's Law


In Space, there would be no kickback for the gun.

In Space Rockets can't fly, neither The Shuttle, APOLLO 11, The Galileo etc,etc.

Look at this clip at the 40 sec mark, 42, 47 and 58, you will see the Trust of the weapon puncturing the pressure of our atmosphere causing the weapon to move in the opposite direction of the Trust.

Newton's Third Law died in Space!


Newton’s Third Law: states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

For The Shuttle engine thrust to have an equal reaction and opposite to the Spacecraft, there has to be an opposite to equal that reaction, there has to be an opposite to create an equal reaction, there has to be an opposite to react off of. Space according to NASA is a vacuum devoid of any matter to offer any resistance to equal the opposite action.

No resistance offered = no reaction to equal the opposite action.


NASA MURDERED SIR ISAAC NEWTON -- YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
 Quoting: NASA LIES 742567


F = M * A you stupid cunt.
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Shuttle and ISS can't dock huh? How did they build ISS then? And more importantly, looks to me like amateurs with telescopes have proved that they DO dock:
[link to www.tracking-station.de]
What's the sound? Ah yes, the satisfying sound of punisher's world view collapsing all around him.
--------------------------------------------------------
The Boeing 747 is the ISS -- take out all the wires and the guitar amplifiers, a perfect match.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742927

Directly contradicted by observational evidence proving ISS exists. Further contradicted by lengthy continuous shots of astronauts in zero g that couldn't be created in short parabolic loops.
-- And why is the guy's hair in the supposed ISS standing up? Is he free-falling in the Boeing?

-- If the ISS free-falls sideways shouldn't his hair be going sideways?
 Quoting: AC

He's not accelerating sideways, so why would his hair go sideways? Does your hair get pushed by in your seat every time you put your car on cruise control at 60mph? You've got a lot to learn about physics.
-- Is he holding on because there's no padding and doesn't want to fall on his face once the ride is over?
 Quoting: AC

Or maybe he just doesn't want to float away? Good grief.
-- Why build the ISS with all those wires? So astronauts stationed there for weeks can get all tangled up like a bug in a spiders web?
 Quoting: AC

Wires go to things, thing that need to run and be accessed like computers, experiments, mircophones, and other equipment. Sometimes equipment needs to be moved or swapped out for new peripherals, and in that case, you need to access the wires.

I've seen ISS for myself, it's real, give up the nonsense.
astrobanner2
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08/05/2009 10:37 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
F = M * A you stupid cunt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 705825

I = P x A (you dumb pussy)
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 10:49 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
The Boeing 747 is the ISS -- take out all the wires and the guitar amplifiers, a perfect match.




Directly contradicted by observational evidence proving ISS exists. Further contradicted by lengthy continuous shots of astronauts in zero g that couldn't be created in short parabolic loops.
 Quoting: Astronut

Orbit as explained by nitwits such as you is falling sideways, therefore sideways would the astronaut respond if REAL physics is applied, then, if its just the trolls enjoyment of exclaiming their stupidity make whatever BULLSHIT up.

-- And why is the guy's hair in the supposed ISS standing up? Is he free-falling in the Boeing?

-- If the ISS free-falls sideways shouldn't his hair be going sideways?




He's not accelerating sideways, so why would his hair go sideways? Does your hair get pushed by in your seat every time you put your car on cruise control at 60mph? You've got a lot to learn about physics.
 Quoting: Astronaut

Dumb ass, the ISS/Shuttle free-falls sideways at 17,000 MPH, a Boeing will fall at the same rate like every other object, 700 MPH. Those astronauts would be glued to the sides of the ISS/Shuttle.

The fact that their hair are sticking up means that there is still effect. No cruise control.


Wires go to things, thing that need to run and be accessed like computers, experiments, mircophones, and other equipment. Sometimes equipment needs to be moved or swapped out for new peripherals, and in that case, you need to access the wires.

I've seen ISS for myself, it's real, give up the nonsense.
 Quoting: Astronaut

Ha,Ha,Ha switchboard operators in Space, ha,ha,ha, all you've seen is your boyfriends ISS.
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 10:52 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
One word

Vacuum.

Dumbest thread of the week.

CASE DISMISSED.
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Orbit as explained by nitwits such as you is falling sideways, therefore sideways would the astronaut respond if REAL physics is applied,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742927

He's not accelerating sideways, his lateral motion is constant. A plane making a parabolic loop is moving sideways too, but the people inside don't feel it either.
Dumb ass, the ISS/Shuttle free-falls sideways at 17,000 MPH, a Boeing will fall at the same rate like every other object, 700 MPH.
 Quoting: AC

The boeing isn't falling straight down, it's in a loop. An object falling to earth at sea level without air drag, which varies between objects, does so at 9.8m/s^2, 700mph is the wrong answer.
The fact that their hair are sticking up means that there is still effect. No cruise control.
 Quoting: AC

Unlike your car, ISS is not resisting gravity, gravity is fully factored into its motion around the earth, thus it's experiencing zero g. In short, it's in constant free fall around the curve of the earth.

Ha,Ha,Ha switchboard operators in Space, ha,ha,ha, all you've seen is your boyfriends ISS.
 Quoting: AC

Your childish insult doesn't even make sense.
[link to www.demotivateus.com]

Last Edited by Dr. Astro on 08/05/2009 11:04 AM
astrobanner2
The Boss

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08/05/2009 11:03 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Looks like Punisher is back with a whole new round of scientific "proof". Wow this mother fucker is literally stuck in the 15th century. The Earth is flat. Mass multiplied by acceleration is force (f = m * a) is bullshit. You're definately no rocket scientist.

Punisher.

A rocket does not work by pushing against the surrounding air. Air creates drags which makes rockets less effecient. The gas behind the rocket does not push against or displace the outside air you dumb fuck because the GAS HAS A MASS. When a system expels or accelerates mass in one direction the accelerated mass will cause a proportional but opposite force on that system. The explosion itself "pushes" against the the rocket.
Pardon me for interrupting your premature celebration, but I thought it only fair to give you a sporting chance as you are new to this game.
Right Wing Terrorist

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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
feedtroll
"<sarcasm>I prefer to do nothing and pretend that it will change my life meaningfully.<sarcasm>" ~ Evil Twin
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 11:20 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
One word

Vacuum.

Dumbest thread of the week.

CASE DISMISSED.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 690546

Vacuum is void of air.

The clip showing the trust of the weapon piercing the pressure of the Atmosphere for the recoil would be produce ZERO effect in a vacuum (SPACE).

You're all dead in the brain..

bump
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2009 11:25 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Orbit as explained by nitwits such as you is falling sideways, therefore sideways would the astronaut respond if REAL physics is applied,



He's not accelerating sideways, his lateral motion is constant. A plane making a parabolic loop is moving sideways too, but the people inside don't feel it either.
 Quoting: Astronut

That's why its FAKE -- Thank you for sticking your foot in your mouth.

Dumb ass, the ISS/Shuttle free-falls sideways at 17,000 MPH, a Boeing will fall at the same rate like every other object, 700 MPH.



The boeing isn't falling straight down, it's in a loop. An object falling to earth at sea level without air drag, which varies between objects, does so at 9.8m/s^2, 700mph is the wrong answer.
 Quoting: Astronut

Yes and this loop is going up/down -- not sideways.

The fact that their hair are sticking up means that there is still effect. No cruise control.



Unlike your car, ISS is not resisting gravity, gravity is fully factored into its motion around the earth, thus it's experiencing zero g. In short, it's in constant free fall around the curve of the earth.
 Quoting: Astronut

That's how Peter Pan flys.

Ha,Ha,Ha switchboard operators in Space, ha,ha,ha, all you've seen is your boyfriends ISS.



Your childish insult doesn't even make sense.
[link to www.demotivateus.com]
 Quoting: Astronut

Childish? You'all believe in Peter Pan.
Wraithwynd

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08/05/2009 11:32 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
I'm a Moron
 Quoting: NASA LIES 742567


Yep you read it here, the op said it himself - not in this few of words though.
Sinkhole list:
Thread: Sinkholes Updated 28 Dec 2010
find a sinkhole, add it to this thread, please.

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15, NKJV).
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Looks like Punisher is back with a whole new round of scientific "proof". Wow this mother fucker is literally stuck in the 15th century. The Earth is flat. Mass multiplied by acceleration is force (f = m * a) is bullshit. You're definately no rocket scientist.
 Quoting: The Boss

You farts resorted to 1800's pendulum at one point to prove your archaic notion of motion.

A rocket does not work by pushing against the surrounding air. Air creates drags which makes rockets less effecient.
 Quoting: The Boss

They call it an airplane because without air it doesn't fly.

Flight dynamics need air to fly, what air is there in Space for The Shuttle to fly. Space is a void there is nothing under The Shuttles wings to support it so it falls until it finds support.

The Atmosphere.

The gas behind the rocket does not push against or displace the outside air you dumb fuck because the GAS HAS A MASS. When a system expels or accelerates mass in one direction the accelerated mass will cause a proportional but opposite force on that system. The explosion itself "pushes" against the the rocket.
 Quoting: The Boss

Look at the clip stupid. Learn, before you speak. Without air there would be no kickback to equal the thrust of the weapon for the recoil, for the equal, and opposite reaction.

Newton's Law -- deal with it, POS.
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08/05/2009 11:41 AM

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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
He's not accelerating sideways, his lateral motion is constant. A plane making a parabolic loop is moving sideways too, but the people inside don't feel it either.
----------------------------------------------------------
That's why its FAKE -- Thank you for sticking your foot in your mouth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 742927

The acceleration all occurs on launch. Thanks for proving you don't know the difference between acceleration and velocity. Somewhere in the world, a phyics teacher just had a massive life-ending heart attack.
Yes and this loop is going up/down -- not sideways.
 Quoting: AC

Wrong, the plane is still moving sideways.
[link to www.phys.unsw.edu.au]

Last Edited by Dr. Astro on 08/05/2009 11:42 AM
astrobanner2
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08/05/2009 11:52 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
The acceleration all occurs on launch.
 Quoting: Astronut

Then explain why this guy's hair is standing up? (reaction)
[link to www.spaceinfo.com.au]

Why does this guy still need support from crew members if everything stable. (participation)
[link to www.thescienceforum.com]


YOU'RE A TROLL -- AND NOT GOOD AT IT EITHER

Yes and this loop is going up/down -- not sideways.



Wrong, the plane is still moving sideways.
[link to www.phys.unsw.edu.au]
 Quoting: Astronut

Airplanes (Boeing) don't fly sideways you fawkin imbecile.
[link to express.howstuffworks.com]


WHAT A SORRY ASS TROLL!!!
LoTech

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08/05/2009 11:59 AM
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Re: The Shuttle can't DOCK in SPACE -- MARS PROBE couldn't travel to wonderland -- Voyager and The Galileo ALL LIES!!
Wow, I just found this site, saw this thread, and had to sign up.

Thanks for amusing me!

btw, why are half the posts anonymous? Is it really that embarrassing to post here? ok, don't answer that...

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