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Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.

 
Chaol

User ID: 30813467
Lithuania
12/26/2012 10:42 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...


It would be far more effective if it was something unique that you created, with little-to-no inherent meaning.
 Quoting: Chaol


I am very confused about the Awareness Expansion Exercise now.

Wasn't that supposed to be done with what surrounds us, keep one value and change the other three?

Some posters mentioned using a comb as a scratcher, or placing a screwdriver in the toothbrush cup. You mentioned the coin example.

Something unique with no inherent meaning is for the Genius, right?
I thought the exercise was a different thing.
 Quoting: Ambra 30715424


Yes, you can do the awareness expansion exercise with what is around you.

But do the Genius (a separate thing) with something new.

Let me know how it goes.
 Quoting: Chaol


Great.
The wax owl candle was for the exercise, not the Genius.

I kept the symbol (a decorating candle).
Interaction - changed (all elements in bathroom)
Possibility/space - changed (bathroom shelf)
Logic - changed (placing on sink when brushing teeth)

Because it feels as if I simply moved something around (which I constantly do, as I am decluttering and improving the space), maybe the interaction is too simple? Should I use it as a "wrinkle-eraser", rather than decoration?
 Quoting: Ambra 30767611


Hi. My oversight there. Your example is more than fine.

The exercise is for the practice of changing the elements of something. Meaning, to make it more flexible in your reality to pierce the veil of your perspective. This can allow you to see and understand how one thing is multiple things.

So rather than looking directly for results in the candle (and its respective elements) we are looking to results in our perspective.

It's not just redecorating or moving your candle from one place to an other because you have identified what elements comprise its existence in your perspective.

In a way you are shaking things up in your perspective. You are defining the way in which the candle interacts with your reality and consciously changing it.

Such practice will expand your perspective (for lack of better terms) because you are learning how to perceive things for more than they appear to be.

You may want to practice with a few more and see if you see any change in your perspective.

This is closely related to how the Genius works. With practice, a book on your table 'becomes' your dream house (after experiencing the logical narrative of it all) because the dream house is the book. (Or, as it may be said, the two values spring from the same perspective and are made of the same substance: perspective.)

So, when you flex your perspective muscles by changing the way your perspective is calculated (so to speak) you are learning how to perceive something for more than it appears to be.

This is the path the Genius takes. The 'morphing' from one thing to an other is a way for you to make sense of it.

I hope this helps, and my apologies for thinking of the two together before.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 10:48 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...


Yes. And your interacts have an effect on your dreamworld.

Anything you interact with has an effect on what you'd call your past/present/future perspective.

What does your bed represent?
 Quoting: Chaol


Interesting that such a question had me pondering a bit.

The very first answer to that was "rest". But then I realized it's not it. I feel more rested when I lay on the couch, either with the laptop, or watching some TV.

I usually delay going to bed, until the very last minute. So I'd rather say "exhaustion", or deep sleep and dreams.

Thinking further, due to lack of companionship, my current bed/symbol has seen zero sexual activity for a perceived long time, so it's pretty much a cold representation. :( But that's about to change with the use of the Genius! :)

Short of buying an eerie fake boyfriend doll (lol!), I'll start by placing a representation of companionship on it.

I thought of dusting off my old teddy bear, which has been sitting in a dark closet for years. Poor thing. It was my trusted companion and I shared all my thoughts with it, as a child.
 Quoting: Ambra 30715424


May I ask, for how long have you only thought of your bed as a 'last resort' for sleep? (Rather than something you could feel relaxed or comfortable on.)
 Quoting: Chaol


For a very long time. Years.

All technology is in the living room, computer, tv... and everything else I interact with, including the fireplace.

I could implement some changes, and try to read in bed, or do tarot cards spreads. Right now it truly feels as a "last resort"! If I'm awake, I get bored.
 Quoting: Ambra 30767611


No need for so much extracurricular activity in the bed. It may work better for you to make it the domain of sleepytime. Some of us, from Abe to Polonius and back again, rest more that way.

But I hope your dreams are as you wish.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 10:49 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
May I ask, for how long have you only thought of your bed as a 'last resort' for sleep? (Rather than something you could feel relaxed or comfortable on.)
 Quoting: Chaol


For a very long time. Years.

All technology is in the living room, computer, tv... and everything else I interact with, including the fireplace.

I could implement some changes, and try to read in bed, or do tarot cards spreads. Right now it truly feels as a "last resort"! If I'm awake, I get bored.
 Quoting: Ambra 30767611


I forgot to mention, that when I rented this place, it came already with some furniture. At the time I didn't mind, as I had planned on staying briefly. Actually, it was ideal not having to get furniture at the time.

The stuff in the bedroom (except for the new mattress) is not mine and does not reflect my taste [huge closet, mirror, chest drawer, etc]. Maybe this aggravates not wanting to spend much waking time there.

I will do small changes, though. Like lamp shades, my own paintings, and such.

The real bedroom will be in the next home. 100% from scratch.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30767611


Some environments may seem foreign, like when we travel.

"Not our usual taste," it can be said.

But it's still of your perspective, and entirely you.
Anonymous Coward
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12/26/2012 10:53 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Hello!

I have been living in this world for some time now.

I came from a place also named Earth, much like this planet. There are a number of differences between my home and yours.

I thought it would be interesting to share a few things with you that are relatively common knowledge where I am from. My reasons for doing so will probably be more apparent in the future.

* Consciousness does not exist (but relationships do)
* Matter is gravity that has been structured
* We are not human (we are perspectives)
* When the totality of something cannot be grasped, it appears infinite.
* Space is not physical
* There is no "now" or "here", but relationships.

We use a kind of language like you use numbers here. Numbers, representations of abstract concepts, were 'invented' to work more easily with the world around us. Our language is no different.

If it were invented today it would probably be thought of as existing in parallel with science. A new kind of science.

This language also enables the shifting of perspective like a kind of mental technology. Some of you may find it quite interesting.

If anyone is interested in learning more please let me know.

Thanks.
 Quoting: chaol 183770


Judging by what you say, I am guessing you're from Canada?

(Looks at flag under name.) Well whadduya know. . .
Chaol

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Lithuania
12/26/2012 11:23 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Our choices are limited by what we "believe" our choices are. I see where you're coming from, but "free will" (ability to make (any) choice based on the information we ARE aware of) is as I see it, fundamental to our "current" experience of "reality"(within the spectrum of nothing).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Nicely put.

Though this choice could be based on information we are not aware of and no information at all, not just that information that we are aware of.

If our choice was limited by what we believe our choices are then that would mean that we could not choose something outside of our choice. If you asked me if I wanted either a cheeseburger or a hamburger I could respond by going to France. Our choices would not be limited by what we don't believe our choices to be.

Since we can never be "TRULY" self aware (because even what we consider our "self" is outside of awareness) we seem to get information on the relationships this "self" represents, but it's all illusion. When all we experience is illusion, the illusion itself becomes irrelevant because EVERY experience is supported by the framework it provides. So we can tag any experience with "illusion" or "simulation" or "nothing" or "existence" but I just don't see it as useful. I do see tagging experience with "perspective" useful as it allows us to take into account the totality of the most relative relationships that define that perspective.
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Yes, I think "nothing" can be quite a useless designation but only up to a point.

Perspective can be more useful. However, this may give us a false picture of reality because it paints a reality as being subject to observation.

This illusion 'creates' perspective.

"What is the price of coffee today?" can elicit a variety of responses considering perspective.

However, as Nothing is the parent of perspective it would probably answer (if it could) that the price of coffee is irrelevant. This may help in remembering and understanding that perspective is flexible because it never reaches its ultimate destination.

I understand what you mean by "free will" being an illusion, I just don't see "free will" and illusion as mutually exclusive systems. Popping from bottle to bottle is what we do automatically as the dominoes fall within the most logical pattern (requiring the least energy or number of interactions). But this automatic "process" by which perspectives cascade through their variants is an expression of the "free will" of the system that houses perspective. Free will (the opportunity to make choice within a limited decision set) is a tool we use to enhance and express our perspective in a way that leads to "deeper" and "richer" opportunities for illusory experience. The illusory concepts of "free will" and "fate" are one in the same because the decisions we "believe" we've made are the decisions we've "always" made and we made them based on what we perceived (albeit illusory) to be our past decisions and their perceived results.

The moment there is opportunity for choice, whether illusory or not, there is "free will" automatically generated (perceived) with in that space.

If what comes next (in our nothing kaleidoscope) is what takes the least energy to come next and we can define how that energy is distributed and the framework in which it flows, then that ability is our perceived "free will". It's a self correcting feedback loop and presupposes time and decision space. Perhaps I am limited by my "current" inability to see beyond my perceived "ability to choose".
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


I enjoyed reading your illustration of how there is free will in this illusion.

It would probably be my explanation of 'free will' were it not for the nature of perspective.

Because it is all an illusion, the illusion does not really matter (as you've explained). In this, there is no illusion.

However, if all choices are all ready made (e.g., everything exists right now) there is no free will because it is irrelevant.

Making a choice implies that the separation of events in time is valid and true. It also implies a separation of you from what you choose.

But you and what you choose is the same. And 'both' are of your perspective.

If time is more of a function of the way the brain interprets reality than an absolute truth in the universe then 'choice' is meaningless.

What happens when you press a key on your keyboard?

We could say that we choose to press a key and it is done.

We could also say that we are trying to perceive of nothing, an act which dictates that every possibility be simultaneously created and experienced infinitely.

Because of the nature of truth, each of the two answers is as valid as the other.

Both are useful. (But only the first one is apple pie.)

You've given me something to think about.
Jesse Sovoda
Jesse

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12/26/2012 11:28 AM

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.


...


By failure I am referring to that thing that happens where all is going "as intended" then you start "second guessing" your process and it mucks it up.

There are a few things that I am not willing to give up. I'm taking my trip through perspective and looking to make sure my experience includes those closest to me. I'm unwilling to give them up unless they're no longer relevant. If I am working through a genius and my wife (for instance) begins to become less relevant I tend to scratch that route and do something that will allow her to retain her relevance within my perspective.

It doesn't matter how "powerful" superman is, if he cannot protect his Lois Lane, adoptive father etc... (and I am no "superman")

Chaol moved into an alternate perspective to experience his girl. I (already) have mine, I plan on keeping her :).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


I'm trying to make sure I follow you here. I get it about wanting to include several factors in your perspective, such as family. I too am trying to include mine.

So are you saying through using your Genius, you have seen your gf becoming less relevant and had to change it?

I had one instance where the day seemed overwhelmingly strange and it included one of my family members. Fortunately, I was able to come up with something that seemed logical to her, LOL, but when I got home, I juggled my Genius. And to be honest, I don't really know if my Genius was really involved anyway.

To me, failure is giving up. And I don't really see that happening either, because we aren't going to be free of perspective......ever, as far as I can tell.

Anyway, I would love to know more about your experiences if you feel to share. My family is coming more into view right now.
 Quoting: Unit3


I seek to expand my "awareness", I am looking to perceive a richer resolution of experience in each "moment" to allow me to get "more" out of my perspective and I seek to use that to increase the "quality of life" for myself and those I care about. I've found in some of my trials, I became less tolerant or patient with the very ones I'm looking to protect/enhance. This seems to happen because as I expand my understanding I am more aware of their intent and the relationships they hold within my perspective. This (at times) leads me to dismiss their concerns as if they're trivial (yet to them they're obviously not). If I am to assist and nurture them in order to "enhance" them and "protect" them (from my perspective), I cannot dismiss their perceived concerns (as trivial as I perceive them to be).
Maybe... you are all powerful... all knowing... forever present in all ways... you've chosen to forget... remember?
Chaol

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12/26/2012 11:30 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Perspective is afar from questions and answers
 Quoting: Chaol


No disagreement, but if I can explain how i connected them.

Externalizing the desire or want provides us with new perspective.
 Quoting: Chaol


"Externalizing the desire" to me means that i am at point A that i know of and i "want" to go to point B.

So before you say "point B", haven't you asked questions like "where i want to go, why i want to go there and how i will go there?" If you haven't answered, there is no "point B" that creates the perspective. Isn't it?

So, the whatever perspective we each currently experience comes from the whichever answers we have given to our whichever questions we asked in the first place.

Besides when you say:
"dont ask how to win the lottery, ask how you can have an abundance of money instead, for example", is it not an attempt to shifting/creating a perspective through a question? How else could you have done this to yourself or to others, other than through questions and answers?
 Quoting: panoukos


(The following is provided for illustration only...)

We know very little compared with our own subconscious.

When we "externalize the desire or want" we are communicating with our subconscious.

We can ask questions about Point B but it is not the questions nor the answers that get us there.

Our subconscious asks no questions nor provides any answers.

The questions are like queues for our subconscious to interpret. We can then interpret the "result".

The waking mind asks the questions and interprets what may be seen as answers.

When you say, "So, the whatever perspective we each currently experience comes from the whichever answers we have given to our whichever questions we asked in the first place." we can consider that our current perspective is not based on the questions of our waking mind.

For, "dont ask how to win the lottery, ask how you can have an abundance of money instead, for example", [I don't think this is a direct quote, but I will respond as though it was] it is not meant to be a question for the subconscious but more of a practical question about how to go about making a more effective model.

I suppose the ultimate question is really "How do I get from Point A to Point B?"

The answer is that our waking mind represents what Point B is and our Genius (subconscious) makes it more relative to our current perspective.
 Quoting: Chaol



I love illustrative examples. Thanks.

So, we are teaching our waking mind what the subconscious already knows. Since we don't know how we use the Genius, are we actually functioning only through the subconscious currently?
 Quoting: Unit3


You could also say that we are that which makes up the subconscious.

It's filled with all kinds of everything. Parts that know, parts that don't know.

We are the story of a part of it, and it is us.

The cells in your hand are asking the same questions :)

Iow, what's the difference in the waking mind that knows it wants to get to Point B, but doesn't know how it happens....as compared to the waking mind that does know how it happens.
 Quoting: Unit3


Practically-speaking...

Get to point B; waking mind does not know = 4 years, 3 months (exmaple)

Get to point B; waking mind knows how = 1 week

Get to point B; waking mind really knows and understands = a few nanoseconds

In the same way, your body "understands" things that the cells in your hand do not. It is experiencing time and space differently because of this understanding.

The understanding, however, is not a mental process. It is the relationship of values in its perspective.

Hope this helps.
Chaol

User ID: 30813467
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12/26/2012 11:33 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...


If you know how to get your symbol to rest in it, sure :)
 Quoting: Chaol


I could add lemon juice and water together and drink it while standing on my left foot, every Thursday.
 Quoting: Unit3


If your space is the Sun then your symbol should rest (mostly, not all ways) in/of it.

Unless you have a spaceship I don't know about maybe an other space would work better *smile*
 Quoting: Chaol


I was talking about the sun in the body.

I could leave a nail with a red mark on it on the patio.
 Quoting: Unit3


This sun is really affecting me lately. Me brane is still cloudy :O

The sun of the body is more of an atomic thing but you can try it and see how it works.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 11:37 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...


As you might be inclined to say, where does this meaning come from?
 Quoting: Chaol


Yes, a very good question which I've given a lot of thought to. My answer is programming. However, until I met you, I thought the programming is from whatever I "decide" or am taught.

Now, I am not so sure!!!
 Quoting: Unit3


If it is programming, are you capable of changing the program?

If so, could it mean that the program is being re-created now? Or is at least able to be changed now?

If so, then who or what is doing that?
 Quoting: Chaol


I feel like I have changed a great deal of the programming I was taught. I understand this is something I am perceiving now so yes, the program is being re-created and/or changed now.

Yes, I would like to know who is changing the programming, LOL! I would like to know who is learning to use the Genius, who has a subconscious and who is perceiving. heh!

It's still hard to see it all as nothing or as illusion. I understand I feel I exist because I perceive and that's about it. The rest, I'm waiting for a lightbulb moment.
 Quoting: Unit3


Who is reading this right now?

Can you imagine the endless physical, electrical, mathematical, and mechanical processes that you have control of right now because you are able to represent those complex processes?

No one is doing that but you.

You are capable of it because you inherently know how to represent anything and then work with those representations.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 11:41 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
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The models we use are quite complicated. There's no point in going into them now.

Tetris is fun. The music makes it even more fun. Here's the Ec version: [link to ecsys.org] or [link to ecsys.org]
 Quoting: Chaol


Thanks. I love the music but I want to play it too. Do you have a version of it or is the link I provided good enough?
 Quoting: Unit3


It should play in your browser. It's just a little tune, quite short.
 Quoting: Chaol


I'm sorry. I wasn't clear here. I meant I'd like to play the game too. Do you have your own version of the game too?
 Quoting: Unit3


You're all ready playing the game.

But that game (the Ec language game) was just something I wrote down for a developer. It was never intended to be finished. It is better if it happens organically here, and did a few months ago here.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 11:46 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
AWESOME!!!!!! This is cool. Okay, so I'd also like to pick up a pen and write when I read stuff during dream time, so that I might have a better change of remembering it when awake. Hmmmmmm, so my taking notes from what we chat about here is an example of that, maybe?

 Quoting: Unit3


Whatever you are doing now you are doing it both worlds.

You interpret it in one way in one world, and an other way in an other world.

As you write it down in your dream you are also writing it down in your waking world (however, this would probably be translated different in your waking world. Perhaps you'd take a boat ride and have a revelation whilst looking at the sheets of waves).

Also, are you talking about the dream where 3 of us in separate locations, in a 24 hour period experienced a similar type dream? And we haven't realized the value of that accomplishment? It was one event, right?

See, I want to have that happen again and again until it's my reality!!!!
 Quoting: Unit3


There are multiple such instances.

Even one would be a world-changing feat. But it may take some time to let it sink in.
Chaol

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12/26/2012 11:53 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Wow! (the bold statement)

What I'd really like to do is make the dreamtime experiences, my reality in waking time. That's why I was experimenting with symbols from dreamtime when I found your threads, and started incorporating what I'm learning here with what I was doing.

Edit: I need to clarify this. I am trying to integrate people like who are in this thread into my dreamtime and make my dreamtime my waking time. Iow, I think I'm trying to perceive the 2 worlds merged.
 Quoting: Unit3


hmm.. are you sure you're ready for a full-on merged experience?

I need several days to adjust (sometimes weeks) and I'm a 'frequent flyer'.

For someone who has no idea what it might entail, an experience that is not preceded by years of introduction and matriculation would entirely shock you.

I am here to endlessly debrief you! lol

It's so shocking that you need to translate 100% of it into something that you will accept just to experience it. (Meaning that what we call our dreams are 100% of our waking mind's re-interpretation of our dreams.)

Put it this way.. after 3 years we finally move from the basics (lesson 1) to more advanced Ecsys (lesson 1.01)

One thing that the dreamworld has plenty of is time.

Let it cook a little more
panoukos

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12/26/2012 11:53 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...how is it possible to bridge that belief gap between executing it properly and absolute failure? Acceptance?
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda

Jesse, let me tell you first what I am reading.

You say that you see yourself on the one side "executing something properly", on the other side you see a woman called
"Absolute Failure" (Absofaye for short) and wonder whether a concept/thing that you call "acceptance", will be the most suitable to cover something that you call "belief gap" and will allow you to see, when you will cross it, that Absofaye is not what you saw/imagined before crossing it, but a lot better.

What you are asking, is an opinion, somebody else's belief. And this is what you will get. Somebody will say that is not the concept "acceptance" is the concept "bouzouki", or the concept "holy spirit" or the concept "compassion" is the best material that will allow you to cross the "belief gap" and see the best on the other side, etc, etc.

In other words, you are asking us to tell you something about a dream of yours, something that only you can see and where therefore all answers are equally possible suitables. You are asking for something to feed your belief. In that case, I have absolutely nothing to tell you.

It is not wrong of course, since that seems to be the only way we know of, but Chaol's posts are completely irrelevant to faiths and beliefs. And there is a reason for that (Ecsys Prime).

What is on the other side, is already on this side. Therefore, you don't have to cross over any gaps and you don't have to buy any "acceptances" from anyone. What you want is to have revealed (making it more relative to you now) something that is already around you, but you don't see it (yet). If it was visible, you wouldn't ask, you would experienced it.

So, asking questions about seeing it, is to ask questions about what is it that you want to experience (and why. Let the Genius deal with the "how").
Asking questions about believing it, is to ask questions whether what you will wish for, will be a good or a bad thing in the end.

Ask us about something that we can all see and somebody will tell you what you dont see.

Maybe it would help to think of the Genius as a London black cab. It can pick you from anywhere in London and drop you outside the door of anywhere you want within the fastest possible route. All you have to do is to give the driver a piece of paper with the address and the number and lay back to enjoy the ride.

I honestly hoped I helped :)
know thy word
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
So I perceive "my" world as generations that differ? And I perceive you saying that in your world hot and cold water have different tones?

It's all my perspective? And I can change it to one where "my" world is one of abundance for all, with crazy, awesome technology and abilities to travel the universe with friends?
 Quoting: Unit3


If you ever find a world with "abundance for all" please let me know where it is =)
Jesse Sovoda
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12/26/2012 11:55 AM

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Our choices are limited by what we "believe" our choices are. I see where you're coming from, but "free will" (ability to make (any) choice based on the information we ARE aware of) is as I see it, fundamental to our "current" experience of "reality"(within the spectrum of nothing).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Nicely put.

Though this choice could be based on information we are not aware of and no information at all, not just that information that we are aware of.

If our choice was limited by what we believe our choices are then that would mean that we could not choose something outside of our choice. If you asked me if I wanted either a cheeseburger or a hamburger I could respond by going to France. Our choices would not be limited by what we don't believe our choices to be.

Since we can never be "TRULY" self aware (because even what we consider our "self" is outside of awareness) we seem to get information on the relationships this "self" represents, but it's all illusion. When all we experience is illusion, the illusion itself becomes irrelevant because EVERY experience is supported by the framework it provides. So we can tag any experience with "illusion" or "simulation" or "nothing" or "existence" but I just don't see it as useful. I do see tagging experience with "perspective" useful as it allows us to take into account the totality of the most relative relationships that define that perspective.
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Yes, I think "nothing" can be quite a useless designation but only up to a point.

Perspective can be more useful. However, this may give us a false picture of reality because it paints a reality as being subject to observation.

This illusion 'creates' perspective.

"What is the price of coffee today?" can elicit a variety of responses considering perspective.

However, as Nothing is the parent of perspective it would probably answer (if it could) that the price of coffee is irrelevant. This may help in remembering and understanding that perspective is flexible because it never reaches its ultimate destination.

I understand what you mean by "free will" being an illusion, I just don't see "free will" and illusion as mutually exclusive systems. Popping from bottle to bottle is what we do automatically as the dominoes fall within the most logical pattern (requiring the least energy or number of interactions). But this automatic "process" by which perspectives cascade through their variants is an expression of the "free will" of the system that houses perspective. Free will (the opportunity to make choice within a limited decision set) is a tool we use to enhance and express our perspective in a way that leads to "deeper" and "richer" opportunities for illusory experience. The illusory concepts of "free will" and "fate" are one in the same because the decisions we "believe" we've made are the decisions we've "always" made and we made them based on what we perceived (albeit illusory) to be our past decisions and their perceived results.

The moment there is opportunity for choice, whether illusory or not, there is "free will" automatically generated (perceived) with in that space.

If what comes next (in our nothing kaleidoscope) is what takes the least energy to come next and we can define how that energy is distributed and the framework in which it flows, then that ability is our perceived "free will". It's a self correcting feedback loop and presupposes time and decision space. Perhaps I am limited by my "current" inability to see beyond my perceived "ability to choose".
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


I enjoyed reading your illustration of how there is free will in this illusion.

It would probably be my explanation of 'free will' were it not for the nature of perspective.

Because it is all an illusion, the illusion does not really matter (as you've explained). In this, there is no illusion.

However, if all choices are all ready made (e.g., everything exists right now) there is no free will because it is irrelevant.

Making a choice implies that the separation of events in time is valid and true. It also implies a separation of you from what you choose.

But you and what you choose is the same. And 'both' are of your perspective.

If time is more of a function of the way the brain interprets reality than an absolute truth in the universe then 'choice' is meaningless.

What happens when you press a key on your keyboard?

We could say that we choose to press a key and it is done.

We could also say that we are trying to perceive of nothing, an act which dictates that every possibility be simultaneously created and experienced infinitely.

Because of the nature of truth, each of the two answers is as valid as the other.

Both are useful. (But only the first one is apple pie.)

You've given me something to think about.
 Quoting: Chaol


If I understand you correctly, wouldn't choice then, be another "flavor" of perspective like Vanilla or the color Orange? Where we are within the bottle-matrix, we find ourselves capable of making decisions. In other perspectives we function more like a table or a chair, meeting only certain functions but have a very limited (imperceptible from this view point) ability to choose? Yet here we have a rich (perceived) illusion of choice and within that ability to choose, we have the (perceived) illusion of "free will". Much in the same way the table senses the moisture of the full cup of cold water set upon it (the minor warping of the wood because of condensation) and the memory that implies. Yet we have additional technology (a self adjusting feedback loop that presupposes time and the opportunity for choice) to perceive as if we "act" upon the "memory" we're infected with. Within that is there not "free will" as illusory as it is? It's almost as if that elusive "Truth" with the capital "T" is outside anything we are ever capable of perceiving and lies outside of the illusion we are born to.

Last night I had an elaborate lucid dream which included what I perceived to be two types of "alien" one was traditionally angelic and seemed to be assisting the humans who were under attack by what I perceived to be traditionally demonic. Within the dream I had to defend a few people from what would have been collateral damage (as the two seemed more concerned about destroying each others forces than destroying or protecting my perceived environment and kin). By telekinetically throwing several husks of destroyed vehicles in the way I was able to save a few people and by that dream-sign (use of telekinesis) I became lucid. Now I had intended before sleep to find a "dream" entity and discuss the nature of reality and expanding my perspective but I chose to fly/teleport about exploring, helping and saving people. I had forgot my original intent as it was no longer relative. Is this what you mean by the "non-existense" of "free will"? Once my perspective changes so too does my intent and therefor my freewill is negated?

Thank you again.
Maybe... you are all powerful... all knowing... forever present in all ways... you've chosen to forget... remember?
panoukos

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12/26/2012 11:56 AM
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
I think acceptance is huge. When we execute a Genius, there is no way we can know all the variables that need to take place to make what we want to happen. And probably, if we did, we would never want to use one.

That's why I think it's better to make Point B as simple as possible and also make it the side issue...such as the keys to my house on the Riviera rather than a house on the Riviera.
 Quoting: Unit3


Unit3, forgive me but you remind me of an old joke, where somebody is having a flat tyre in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night and doesn't have a jack. He looks around him and sees light on the top of a nearby hill.

On his way there (to ask for a jack), he imagined potential dialogues with the housekeeper, based on his idea that he will annoy them. So after a lot of "I will tell him that and he will reply this, and then I will counter reply that and he will re-reply this", he reaches the door, he knocks it, a woman opens it and with an angry tone, points his finger at her and says:
"Fuck you and your jack!" and turns around and go.

What you say, is that if you choose to make more relative to your experience something that you already have in mind and represents what you truly want, will include a lot of variables that maybe some, or all of them will be "bad" and not make the experience "worth" it.

If, on the other hand you pick a wish that will possibly have less variables, that you can easily imagine them, will make your experience "worth it".

Therefore, it is the "controlability" of the variables that you imagine will stand between you and what you want to experience, that asks what you want to experience.

If that is the case, then you dont have to ask what you want to experience and why, ask what variables you want to experience before you experience the whatever "thing".
But it won't take you anywhere, will it?

Nevertheless, we go back to the same. If what you want to experience is already "in you" and have only to reveal it (make it relative), then the whatever "variables" that will pop up will also come from you.

With this way it is making it impossible to wish for something that you really want to experience and be of "lower value" to any of the potential variables that you meet. If it is, then it wasn't what you "really" wanted to experience. You haven't "define it" properly.

Can't blame the Genius or Ec for it, or whoever suggested it to you. What you've asked is what you get. If you are not "happy", know what you ask.

However i can see the "problem" you, Jesse, me and other face.
We think that point B is in the realm of our imagination. But this realm is blurry to us. But since we live in our imagination/dreams (our subjective world, as we call it), the realm of reality also looks blurry (because we always see reality from the perspective of our dream).

So, it seems that defining point A is the hard bit. If you know where you are, you can know where you want to go. If you dont, any point B can be equally "right" or "wrong".

But ask about A is asking what you see, whereas asking about B, is asking what you believe.

It seems to me that we have been shown the most powerful tool ever been invented by a human being and dont know what to do about it (yet).
know thy word
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
[snips]
It's interesting that you mention that, because I was pondering on the qualities of my new soon to be perceived companion, and thought something quite similar! :)
 Quoting: Ambra 30733622


Perhaps the only thing to ponder is to think of how you feel when you look into his eyes. It may sound corny, but the point is to get away from doing things that your Genius could do far better. Just give it an idea and it will take care of the rest.
 Quoting: Chaol


For my Genius, I put the desire is to receive flowers from my true love. I didn't put anything else but I would like someone close to my age. I didn't know how to insert that and figured it would mess things up anyway.
 Quoting: Unit3


I would suggest just "flowers" and then going from there.

"true love" is a very nebulous concept and I think would be quite difficult to represent.

That's not to say that you won't experience it using the Genius. I'm just suggesting you let your Genius figure out how it happens for you.
Jesse Sovoda
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
...how is it possible to bridge that belief gap between executing it properly and absolute failure? Acceptance?
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda

Jesse, let me tell you first what I am reading.

You say that you see yourself on the one side "executing something properly", on the other side you see a woman called
"Absolute Failure" (Absofaye for short) and wonder whether a concept/thing that you call "acceptance", will be the most suitable to cover something that you call "belief gap" and will allow you to see, when you will cross it, that Absofaye is not what you saw/imagined before crossing it, but a lot better.

What you are asking, is an opinion, somebody else's belief. And this is what you will get. Somebody will say that is not the concept "acceptance" is the concept "bouzouki", or the concept "holy spirit" or the concept "compassion" is the best material that will allow you to cross the "belief gap" and see the best on the other side, etc, etc.

In other words, you are asking us to tell you something about a dream of yours, something that only you can see and where therefore all answers are equally possible suitables. You are asking for something to feed your belief. In that case, I have absolutely nothing to tell you.

It is not wrong of course, since that seems to be the only way we know of, but Chaol's posts are completely irrelevant to faiths and beliefs. And there is a reason for that (Ecsys Prime).

What is on the other side, is already on this side. Therefore, you don't have to cross over any gaps and you don't have to buy any "acceptances" from anyone. What you want is to have revealed (making it more relative to you now) something that is already around you, but you don't see it (yet). If it was visible, you wouldn't ask, you would experienced it.

So, asking questions about seeing it, is to ask questions about what is it that you want to experience (and why. Let the Genius deal with the "how").
Asking questions about believing it, is to ask questions whether what you will wish for, will be a good or a bad thing in the end.

Ask us about something that we can all see and somebody will tell you what you dont see.

Maybe it would help to think of the Genius as a London black cab. It can pick you from anywhere in London and drop you outside the door of anywhere you want within the fastest possible route. All you have to do is to give the driver a piece of paper with the address and the number and lay back to enjoy the ride.

I honestly hoped I helped :)
 Quoting: panoukos


Yes, you did. Thank you. I really appreciate your response.

In my post, I believe I defined my (illusory) obstacle and you've confirmed this for me. I believe this is rooted in the fear of losing (or belief that I will render irrelevant) that which I "cherish" (my precious).

Last Edited by MutantMessiah on 12/26/2012 12:03 PM
Maybe... you are all powerful... all knowing... forever present in all ways... you've chosen to forget... remember?
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
[snips]
@ Chaol,
once the word is created, do we have to stick with it, or can it be changed?
 Quoting: Ambra 30733622


You can change it all you like, as long as you use it properly.
 Quoting: Chaol


And by properly, you mean how we set it up to use it?

BAkegh means my experience of estatic wonder and I will use it every time I feel it? That kind of thing?
 Quoting: Unit3


Yes. Just make sure you use it just as you would any other word, not just think it.
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
[snips]
Keep in mind that Hermes speaks only in metaphor (and here, translated metaphor).
[snips]
 Quoting: Chaol


What do you mean Chaol, in the bold statement above?
[snips]
 Quoting: Unit3


I just mean that it's translated from its original text. So the metaphors are also translated into English, which may hide the original meaning more.
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
The answer is a triangle.
 Quoting: 1-2/(sq(infinity)) 981274


The answer is all ways soup, my friend.

Soup.
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
I suppose the ultimate question is really "How do I get from Point A to Point B?"
 Quoting: Chaol


Thank you Chaol for your clarifications.
Apologies for the long post, which is because I seemed as if I was trying to discredit you on something with my posts, whereas I was trying to elaborate on what you have said, through my own perspective and trying to make obvious, something that apparently isn't so.

It is expectable that somebody who lives in a world like yours, may have only to think of your question above. But in this world we have to deal with the primal question first and that is, "what is the point B?" (which is a question by the way, that wouldn't exist if none has ever told us that there are "points" out there)

Maybe you take it for granted that point B can always be available and handy to anyone of us.

I do understand that once you have articulated (or defined, or even better represented) what point B is, then the subconscious takes over and guide you through to it, making it relative to your experience. You show it the dot to connect it for you. You do that by representing it with a "crazy" symbol and by following some "crazy" rules (the craziest the better) you will eventually see/experience the dot you asked your Genius to show you.
That is understandable (simple) and makes sense to me.

I also understand that I dont have to enter into any game of Q&As afterwards, as to how am i going to experience it, what else i have to do to "help" it etc, etc. No, none of this.

Nevertheless, all my posts about the Q&As refer to the very very basics and even before you appear with the Ec and the Genius.
In this world we are used in questions "what do you desire", "what do you want", "make a wish" and follow "rational", "spiritual", "illegal", or all sorts of methods and ways to achieve it, with hit and miss results.

When you come and say "I will show you a way to experience what you want" with a solid rationale behind it, which comes down to "what you ask is what you (can) get, precisely", you create "confusion" to us, maybe because we are not used in asking precisely ourselves what we want to experience, or because we never thought we had to (like none of us has 3 questions handy to ask the alien tourist who will meet in a bar).

So, your method has revealed to us (or at least to me) that the most important bit each of us has to solve for himself before seeing any value or benefit from what you are saying, is to know "what is it that I ask".

It also seems to be easy for at least 20 recorded successes with the Genius, that is they knew what they asked for. But I risk to say that this is not the rule.

So I do understand you clearly, when you say
"When we "externalize the desire or want" we are communicating with our subconscious."
Meaning that when we have a "point B" ready, we pass it to the subconscious to do its job.

"We can ask questions about Point B but it is not the questions nor the answers that get us there."
Sure! all we need is just to name it: "this is the point B, take me there"

"The answer is that our waking mind represents what Point B is and our Genius (subconscious) makes it more relative to our current perspective."
Again to the point! Before you represent it, you must know what exactly you are representing.

Therefore, where i see you are helping me (and others) more, is to articulate the point B, which is a waking mind exercise, that is language, that is Q&A, that is words.

And if it is the point B, that will necessarily determine the perspective that we will experience, then the perspective will be subject to the Q&As we chose to ask ourselves before, in order to find it.

If not mistaken, I see you confirming it when you say:
"The way we define things surely affects our experience and the way we see things (and react to them)."
How else do we try to define things if not by (specific to us) Q&As?

or...
"...What if our perspective is shaped from the languages we use?"
if the language we use is made by concepts that we arrived at through Q&A about (our) life and death then how ...
..."we can consider that our current perspective is not based on the questions of our waking mind."?

or even better when you used an example:
"this is a symbol of my wealth" is less specific than, say, "this is the key that opens the door to my estate in Monaco". With the former, the map is confused because there is no specific perspective.(emphasis mine)

Once we're able to define what it means then we can begin to experience it. But without a picture of what it means it is fairly meaningless."

What you've stated there is exactly as you said to me here:
"...it is not meant to be a question for the subconscious (I never claimed it was, or that I ask questions my subconscious) but more of a practical question about how to go about making a more effective model."
For the model to be effective therefore, it requires a clear definition of "point B".

"Once we are able to define it..."
That is my bottom line with my "Q&As posts" and the work needed to reach that stage first. If one can do it without Q&As to himself, then disregard everything I wrote about it.
 Quoting: panoukos


I understand the entirety of your post and appreciate the work that has gone into it. I think that my response can be summed up as, "point B is never clearly defined".

As we cannot perceive of something directly, so too would point B not be perceived directly. Thus, we cannot clearly define it.

I agree with your statements that we need to define what point B is. But this is more of a 'general idea' or what would be called a reference because we are trying to perceive of a "future" perspective from the "present".

To put it an other way, if you want to drive to Arlington you could:

1) Ask questions and provide answers consciously, perhaps by looking at a map

2) Get in the car and go somewhere specific. It doesn't matter where.

I am suggesting #2, with the important point to have a clear idea in mind about any destination. It need not be Arlington in order to get to Arlington.

We are learning how to perceive "Arlington" wherever we may be. If you want to define Arlington that's fine. But the definition is what you make it. It only matters that something is defined now. (It can all ways be changed later, and most often is as we seem to change perspectives.)

But I think most often we get stuck on the destination and thinking too much about it. As if we can perceive it clearly from where we stand. So we squint and try to take a gander and make out what is in the distance.. all the while forgetting that it is here now.

#2 is about seeing point B in the here and now. When you get in the car and drive the road will automatically shift to your destination, even if you think you're not going in the right direction.

#1 is the natural way and it's what we're used to. But the wisdom of the Genius is far more clever.
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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
3 and a half years and not one thing changed...where is the fantasy world that is merging? Oh wait..we just don't see it. Just stop this nonsense.
Unit3

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
no
 Quoting: YESNO 30398602



OMG! My genius is working.



[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]


[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]


Thread: man what a dumb windless grassy shit downwarded fuck crap was that
Happy Holidays! snowman
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
I understand that dictating an experience implies something external, but I don't know how to get beyond this. I know everything is within my mind. I change my mind, things change.

Yesterday, I took a walk and decided I would notice other things than usual. I did so, and the other things were all things I didn't really care to see...oil drips on the street, rust marks on the sidewalk, etc:.

I can also see it's impossible to be nothing. I've certainly tried, LOL! There is always something as far as I can tell.

I'm thinking about the rest you said and thank you. hf
 Quoting: Unit3


Walks are nice. My favorite.

Next time, try to find new life in those things you do care to see. There's so much that we miss in what we love.
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
I seek to expand my "awareness", I am looking to perceive a richer resolution of experience in each "moment" to allow me to get "more" out of my perspective and I seek to use that to increase the "quality of life" for myself and those I care about. I've found in some of my trials, I became less tolerant or patient with the very ones I'm looking to protect/enhance. This seems to happen because as I expand my understanding I am more aware of their intent and the relationships they hold within my perspective. This (at times) leads me to dismiss their concerns as if they're trivial (yet to them they're obviously not). If I am to assist and nurture them in order to "enhance" them and "protect" them (from my perspective), I cannot dismiss their perceived concerns (as trivial as I perceive them to be).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Curious.. do you think they could be resisting how you think they should be enhanced?

Maybe they will be relative to your new self on their own terms, not ones that you've planned.

I haven't experienced your situation, so I'm only guessing.
Unit3

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
I understand that dictating an experience implies something external, but I don't know how to get beyond this. I know everything is within my mind. I change my mind, things change.

Yesterday, I took a walk and decided I would notice other things than usual. I did so, and the other things were all things I didn't really care to see...oil drips on the street, rust marks on the sidewalk, etc:.

I can also see it's impossible to be nothing. I've certainly tried, LOL! There is always something as far as I can tell.

I'm thinking about the rest you said and thank you. hf
 Quoting: Unit3


Walks are nice. My favorite.

Next time, try to find new life in those things you do care to see. There's so much that we miss in what we love.
 Quoting: Chaol




Me too. I'm headed out right now and will do so. Thanks again.

And, the thread links I posted just a while ago, take care of 2 things:

Expanding perception through doing something different
Making up words and sentences

Plus, I think Olaf might be my true love, LOL!!!!!!

Edit: Will answer other posts when I get back. Thanks.

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/26/2012 12:53 PM
Happy Holidays! snowman
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
If I understand you correctly, wouldn't choice then, be another "flavor" of perspective like Vanilla or the color Orange? Where we are within the bottle-matrix, we find ourselves capable of making decisions. In other perspectives we function more like a table or a chair, meeting only certain functions but have a very limited (imperceptible from this view point) ability to choose? Yet here we have a rich (perceived) illusion of choice and within that ability to choose, we have the (perceived) illusion of "free will". Much in the same way the table senses the moisture of the full cup of cold water set upon it (the minor warping of the wood because of condensation) and the memory that implies. Yet we have additional technology (a self adjusting feedback loop that presupposes time and the opportunity for choice) to perceive as if we "act" upon the "memory" we're infected with. Within that is there not "free will" as illusory as it is? It's almost as if that elusive "Truth" with the capital "T" is outside anything we are ever capable of perceiving and lies outside of the illusion we are born to.

Last night I had an elaborate lucid dream which included what I perceived to be two types of "alien" one was traditionally angelic and seemed to be assisting the humans who were under attack by what I perceived to be traditionally demonic. Within the dream I had to defend a few people from what would have been collateral damage (as the two seemed more concerned about destroying each others forces than destroying or protecting my perceived environment and kin). By telekinetically throwing several husks of destroyed vehicles in the way I was able to save a few people and by that dream-sign (use of telekinesis) I became lucid. Now I had intended before sleep to find a "dream" entity and discuss the nature of reality and expanding my perspective but I chose to fly/teleport about exploring, helping and saving people. I had forgot my original intent as it was no longer relative. Is this what you mean by the "non-existense" of "free will"? Once my perspective changes so too does my intent and therefor my freewill is negated?

Thank you again.
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


I think vanilla or orange would be values in perspective, whereas 'choice' would be something outside of the reality that arises from between representations.

It seems more like part of the logical narrative than a flavour. Something that we use to make sense of how we got from point A to point B.

If I say that I got into my car and ended up in Colorado Springs a few hours later then a logical narrative would fill all the blanks of these two perspectives (for ease of illustration). Just as an object appears solid as my mind fills in the gaps to make sense of the object.

My mind 'filling in the gaps' is free will. I'm making sense of my perspective.

So 'free will' may be something that arises from us to make sense of our transition through perspectives.

Interesting to think about.

Last Edited by Chaol on 12/26/2012 01:18 PM
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Yes, you did. Thank you. I really appreciate your response.

In my post, I believe I defined my (illusory) obstacle and you've confirmed this for me. I believe this is rooted in the fear of losing (or belief that I will render irrelevant) that which I "cherish" (my precious).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


And so you understand the other ~90% in my world.

It's a very valid concern, and one that I think about often.

We are human, after all.
Chaol

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Re: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
3 and a half years and not one thing changed...where is the fantasy world that is merging? Oh wait..we just don't see it. Just stop this nonsense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30140356


Ok, I see your point. When should this nonsense be stopped?

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