Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.

Here's more:

Chaol on consciousness and Universal Laws:

Thread: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking. (Page 5)

"consciousness = relationships. An example of this would be two sounds together creating a third. The result of the two representations interacting, the third sound, is consciousness.)

Thanks."


A poster asks:

"So, if I can grasp what you are saying, there are no Universal laws, just perspectives?

How could one learn to exercise more control over his own perception?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 757588


Hello!

There may be universal laws but I am not aware of any, nor aware of others who are aware.

I suppose if there were any 'laws' then they may be the following:

1) Everything is represented somehow
2) Representations naturally interact

Of course these would not be considered real laws here. But one can extrapolate laws from its vagueness. The resultant 'laws' would seem useful in the current system but would not really be useful in another system where there is a different cognitive framework."




I'll stop for tonight. Hope you guys are enjoying this.

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/16/2012 11:05 PM

I'd agree that I(and everything else within your perspective) is (in some way) a representation of you. You only get to experience others through the information you receive from your various data streams (senses). The information you receive is not dependent on your physical body any more than you believe it is. We can perceive profound "hallucinatory" experiences that do not even depend on the senses we have in "this" reality frame. There is no difference between something that would be "objectively" perceived as "hallucinatory" or "real". Sharing True objective experience is just not possible. All experience is subjective and only you experience it.



It's not that nothing truly exists... it's that only the relationships between fragments of you exist. And those only exist in an abstract framework that (at least for me) is beyond direct comprehension but are only there because an observer is looking to "make sense" of it. I think we see glimpses of this framework in the metaphors generated by Chaol (and the various other religious, spiritual, scientific and philosophical sources out there). I do "feel" that I exist and I do "fear" non existence. I've come to believe (but have and will never have received experiential data) that perception at the level where the "observer" exists cannot end or it all ends. We (I, You) can experience independent of all of the confines of the logical framework around us in "this" reality. That experience also "feels" real. So, with that being the case, which one is real? This one? The other one? Both? Neither? I guess it depends on your subjective definition of "real" or "existence".



Absolutely not. Complete control renders you the Genie.



Thank you, I always down to chat about all this.
edit-(awesome Chaol quotes btw Unit)

Last Edited by MutantMessiah on 12/17/2012 08:28 AM

Greetings.

As usual, I'll need a few days to re-adjust myself.

Glad to be back!

Really glad to have you. Take your time. I hope you had a good "trip".

Hi.

I'm not sure what good my answer will do. I'm again starting from scratch. But it seems that the issue is that you have too many rules (in the above) where a single rule would work better.

Think of it this way... one 'crazy' rule wakes up your sub-conscious. One or more rules with too many conditions confuse it and turns it off.

I'll have to respond in a few days about a recommended model. Me thinks is a bit fuzzy now.

Hello! Welcome back. Yay!


Whenever you're ready, I'm all ears!





Edit: I'd also be interested in hearing your observations of us now that you are back. We have been a busy bunch this past month!!!!

Also, how was your trip?

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/18/2012 11:03 AM

The way I looked at all this before Chaol, is everything is consciousness; therefore, everything I perceive (and I agree, perception goes beyond the senses), is alive, even though I can manipulate it.

However, what I've been grappling with is the statement: there is no consciousness. Then, I found the quote: consciousness = relationships.....2 representations result in a 3rd and this is consciousness.

Still thinking on this one.



Jesse said:

"I guess it depends on your subjective definition of "real" or "existence"."

Lightbulb moment for me, heh!

I'm placing a subjective meaning on what's real. The question could also be, what's not real. I can change my perceptions. Does that make them real or not real. I believe in them until I change them and then I believe in the newer ones, LOL!

Does that make the older ones real then not real when I observe the newer ones? It all only exists as I observe it and it's real because I believe it is.


If Chaol (and all of us) do not have complete control, then there must be universal laws of some kind. I don't see how it could be otherwise. Even within chaos, we are able to create perceptions that make sense.

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/17/2012 10:56 AM

I also can imagine the difficulties he has in explaining things to us. First off, we don't have words for some of the things he tells us about. Secondly, he has to scale replies to different perspectives so they might understand what he is saying to that particular perspective. And third, you might say not only is he speaking in a foreign language, he is also living in a foreign culture.

I'll admit, he seems to have a great handle on our culture though. He surprises me quite often, LOL!

Edit: Also, he said somewhere that we had moved into advanced knowledge. So, that changes older understandings. Geez, I think I just blew my mind up, heh!!!!

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/17/2012 12:25 PM

Welcome back!
I guess we will be in for a treat the next few days, what with the over-hyped december 21st event.

Chaos for Christmas! Merry Necsys! :)

Greetings! :)

Greetings and welcome back

Not-Chaol

Is it sennight sickness, Chaol?

Are we any closer to your world yet?

Glad you're here. We miss you when you're gone.

Welcome back, Chaol!

Only a few of you welcomed back Not-Chaol when I returned. Not feeling the same love as my brother Chaol.

to Not-Chaol!

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/17/2012 07:21 PM

Thank you unit. If I knew how to do the smiley I'd send the same right back to you!!!

Woop woop!! Glad you're back Chaol! Your presence has been missed!!!

Awwwwwww! Thanks.

Btw, the code is in a quote if the poster used a smiley.

You put :then a word (sometimes a number) such as bighug and then: and no spaces.




Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/17/2012 09:14 PM

Look what I found. By 2018, if you want to order a dress online, you will be able to touch your computer screen and feel the fabric! It's actually a simulation of the fabric but I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference.

[link to money.cnn.com]


My genius is working, heh!!!!

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/17/2012 09:25 PM

I know you all want me to answer more questions but I will wait and let Chaol take things from here.

Hahaha! Greetings Not-Chaol :)

Just found this and think it's a good review for some of us:
The poster made up 2 words for feelings he experienced that he didn't really have words for....and started experiencing them after making up the words!

Thread: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking. (Page 7)






Also found this where Chaol calls perspective, consciousness:

Thread: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking. (Page 7)

"Your perspective (or, "consciousness" if you will) comes about from the all the relationships combined from your particular vantage point, you could say.

You have two opposing magnets. Each magnet is a representation.

The repulsive force between the two magnets is PERSPECTIVE. Otherwise known as consciousness. The consciousness comes about because of the relationship between the two representations.

Now imagine that one magnet is you and the other magnet is an apple pie.

The more you interact with this other representation the more "you+apple pie" consciousness you are creating. The result will be another consciousness (maybe you adding more fat to your body). The result is the 'square' of the you and apple pie representations."

Last Edited by ERE3 on 12/18/2012 12:23 AM

Last one for this evening....it's really good:

Thread: Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking. (Page 7)



"Hello!

Some of you may be wondering, "Well, how I alter my universe?"

Allow me to illustrate the way I do this by first explaining how *you* do this already. [This is Part 1. A little something before I may go.]

When you drift off into sleep you are altering your perspective.

It may seem as though your conscious mind is changing from being awake to being asleep, from A state to B state. Let's exemplify this and say your 'bodily perspective' is like a car, the 2009 Consciousness X. You may think you are driving this car across one state to an other, transitioning steadily off into sleep.

What happens, instead, is that at the moment you're driving the Consciousness X and decide to go to Sleepyland you jump out of the car and into another car, the Consciousness XI. This car is on a different path, towards Sleepyland and all the wonderful magic it offers.

Amazingly, when you decide to jump out you notice the Consciousness X is still driving! That's because a car must always have a driver. A perspective (the car) and consciousness is the same thing.

So the Consciousness X continues down its path of bodily awareness while the Consciousness XI goes in another direction.

Every possibility exists. Why? Because the 'goal' of existence is to create relationships with everything. The more relationships there are, the more consciousness there is. The more consciousness there is the fuller its perspective and the "closer" it is to perceiving the entirety of itself (although there is no distance, only perspective, and perceiving itself fully is impossible).

(We experience those possibilities which are most relative to our experience. If you choose door A instead of door B your perspective will experience door A but another perspective will experience door B. You don't remember door B because it is no longer relative to your experience. The possibility of feeling the handle of door A and walking through it *is* most relative, so that is what you experience. Make door B relative and you can experience that, too. You might call this being psychic. But it's just using perspective.)

You still have all of your senses (plus thought) in your Consciousness X. All of your devices and wiring still works just as a car should. In actuality, Consciousness X is *not* in the dream state. This means that you are *not* in another state of mind when you are sleeping. Technically, you are *always* in Consciousness X.

You can expand your idea of what you consider "you" to include other perspectives. You do this already when you say that you had a dream. It was your dream, right? But when you momentarily perceive another perspective in your waking reality you usually don't say that you were back 20 years ago standing in your kitchen (result: a particular smell "suddenly" coming to you). You just say you had a vivid memory of some past event.

But in reality, you've experienced another you. (And made it relative to your waking experience so that you can remember it. You can do this by creating representations for the dream events, or vice versa.)

We can experience these perspectives all the time. We just have to make it relative to our current experience. We make the dreaming perspective relative to our waking experience by coming up with a structure (sleeping patterns), having representations of sleep (bed, sheets, closed eyes, etc), potential energy (thoughts), and interacting with those elements. We sleep, in effect, because we have established a model for sleep.

It is about the same method that I use. Except the different way that we use it in my world enables us to have different perspectives. We have models for shifting our perspective of time, models for shifting our perspective of the world we live in, and others.

I am here in what I call an alternate universe (though it is really the same universe) and experiencing your world *because* I have a model for it. There was a time in humanity that our perspective was only dreaming. There was a time that we had no dreams to remember. Some of us have never remembered a dream at all. In your future you will also have the same "model for experiencing alternate realms" that I am using.

Imagine traveling to a remote, undiscovered, civilization in the jungles of Peru and finding out that they are unable to dream. You tell them how you are able to lay down, close your eyes and shift your perspective, experiencing just about anything you can imagine. You explain to them that it's not magic. They just need to follow the same model and change their cognitive framework to include such things. They'd definitely think you're nuts and wouldn't even begin to be able to understand how it's possible, but it sure does sound fascinating.

But it's what you're doing already.

The only difference is that where I come from we've learned how to 1) make our waking experience relative to the place we want to go. Mainly so that we can both remember it and use the same kind of perspecitve when we get there (ie., take our mind with us); and 2) decide where we want to go. You've not learned #1 and #2 because you don't have the proper tool. This tool that we use is Ecsys.

When you are dreaming and the dream suddenly transitions to another, the first dream continues on about its path. You don't experience this because your have only 1 perspective. (You can expand your perspective to experience both realms the same way you've expanded your perspecitve to include all your bodily realms, but that's perhaps another post).

Similarly, when you begin the dream you'll notice the dream has already begun. It was there in full before you were aware of it. That's because although you have shifted your perspective to it, it was already a world of its own.

And so here I am in your world. Everything was here already. But I have shifted my perspective. I live in 2009, but I live in a different world.

So what does it mean that you remember that you went to sleep? It is the memory of you jumping out of the car and being able to track the other car on the GPS. Although you don't really remember your dream from the dream perspective (as the two cars took different paths and you didn't see what you could have seen in Consciousness XI) you can see the map of your experience. Your GPS has different software, and allows you to see representations of the other car and location on its screen. When you look at the map and view the route Conscious XI took, you call it your "dream". You remember something about it because the car is the same model and year. You see other cars on the road but you tend to ignore them and only remember seeing cars that were exactly like yours. You remember and perceive that which is relative to you. (The same way your senses/brain ignore greater than 99% of your current reality.)

You may be thinking that your dream is just a dream. Of course you do because the perspecitves are different. (Is that other 1% of your reality that you ignore also a dream?) When you are dreaming how invalid do you think your dreams are? They are in fact so real that you seem to dream for hours. Some of us don't even want to wake up! But your dream world isn't the same kind of physically-oriented world as you know it. Some dreams are physical, indeed (but on a different wavelength of what would be called physicality). They may even have an effect on your sleeping body. Some dreams are not physical at all. But all dreams are real. And all reality does not exist in your dreams. But dreams are a way for you to shift your perspective.

I get to your world not by dreaming but by being very much awake, using the language of ecsys. One day, too, you will "dream while waking" the same way you "think deeply while waking", which is not something humanity has always been able to do. No, this would not be a hallucination that overloads the already-strained senses. It will be your expanded perspective.

Part 2 will explain how you can use ecsys to do the same thing.

(In the example above, notice how I created representions for the concepts using metaphors. The metaphors allowed you to, hopefully, perceive the concepts more clearly. This is what ecsys does. By creating representations you can perceive. By manipulating the relationships you can change your perspective.)

Thanks."

Okay, I couldn't resist. I know I said I posted the last one for the night, but I can't help myself.

Chaol blew my mind with this post.........and what followed after is hilarious. They tried to figure out the code. I'm too tired to stay up to see if Chaol ever explained it. I'll be back on it tomorrow, LOL!!!

Sorry!! I'm like 30 pages behind since I've been busy lately. Seems like a lot of stuff happened here while I was gone, but I guess I got back right on time

If you want me to keep answering questions until Chaol acclimatizes let me know.

You should have your own name! We're all 'not Chaol' :)

Ok I have a question for all of you then. Why are humans so pathetic? Why are they always willing to trade freedom for a false sense of safety? Emotion trumps logic every time.