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Message Subject Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.
Poster Handle Jesse Sovoda
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Our choices are limited by what we "believe" our choices are. I see where you're coming from, but "free will" (ability to make (any) choice based on the information we ARE aware of) is as I see it, fundamental to our "current" experience of "reality"(within the spectrum of nothing).
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Nicely put.

Though this choice could be based on information we are not aware of and no information at all, not just that information that we are aware of.

If our choice was limited by what we believe our choices are then that would mean that we could not choose something outside of our choice. If you asked me if I wanted either a cheeseburger or a hamburger I could respond by going to France. Our choices would not be limited by what we don't believe our choices to be.

Since we can never be "TRULY" self aware (because even what we consider our "self" is outside of awareness) we seem to get information on the relationships this "self" represents, but it's all illusion. When all we experience is illusion, the illusion itself becomes irrelevant because EVERY experience is supported by the framework it provides. So we can tag any experience with "illusion" or "simulation" or "nothing" or "existence" but I just don't see it as useful. I do see tagging experience with "perspective" useful as it allows us to take into account the totality of the most relative relationships that define that perspective.
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


Yes, I think "nothing" can be quite a useless designation but only up to a point.

Perspective can be more useful. However, this may give us a false picture of reality because it paints a reality as being subject to observation.

This illusion 'creates' perspective.

"What is the price of coffee today?" can elicit a variety of responses considering perspective.

However, as Nothing is the parent of perspective it would probably answer (if it could) that the price of coffee is irrelevant. This may help in remembering and understanding that perspective is flexible because it never reaches its ultimate destination.

I understand what you mean by "free will" being an illusion, I just don't see "free will" and illusion as mutually exclusive systems. Popping from bottle to bottle is what we do automatically as the dominoes fall within the most logical pattern (requiring the least energy or number of interactions). But this automatic "process" by which perspectives cascade through their variants is an expression of the "free will" of the system that houses perspective. Free will (the opportunity to make choice within a limited decision set) is a tool we use to enhance and express our perspective in a way that leads to "deeper" and "richer" opportunities for illusory experience. The illusory concepts of "free will" and "fate" are one in the same because the decisions we "believe" we've made are the decisions we've "always" made and we made them based on what we perceived (albeit illusory) to be our past decisions and their perceived results.

The moment there is opportunity for choice, whether illusory or not, there is "free will" automatically generated (perceived) with in that space.

If what comes next (in our nothing kaleidoscope) is what takes the least energy to come next and we can define how that energy is distributed and the framework in which it flows, then that ability is our perceived "free will". It's a self correcting feedback loop and presupposes time and decision space. Perhaps I am limited by my "current" inability to see beyond my perceived "ability to choose".
 Quoting: Jesse Sovoda


I enjoyed reading your illustration of how there is free will in this illusion.

It would probably be my explanation of 'free will' were it not for the nature of perspective.

Because it is all an illusion, the illusion does not really matter (as you've explained). In this, there is no illusion.

However, if all choices are all ready made (e.g., everything exists right now) there is no free will because it is irrelevant.

Making a choice implies that the separation of events in time is valid and true. It also implies a separation of you from what you choose.

But you and what you choose is the same. And 'both' are of your perspective.

If time is more of a function of the way the brain interprets reality than an absolute truth in the universe then 'choice' is meaningless.

What happens when you press a key on your keyboard?

We could say that we choose to press a key and it is done.

We could also say that we are trying to perceive of nothing, an act which dictates that every possibility be simultaneously created and experienced infinitely.

Because of the nature of truth, each of the two answers is as valid as the other.

Both are useful. (But only the first one is apple pie.)

You've given me something to think about.
 Quoting: Chaol


If I understand you correctly, wouldn't choice then, be another "flavor" of perspective like Vanilla or the color Orange? Where we are within the bottle-matrix, we find ourselves capable of making decisions. In other perspectives we function more like a table or a chair, meeting only certain functions but have a very limited (imperceptible from this view point) ability to choose? Yet here we have a rich (perceived) illusion of choice and within that ability to choose, we have the (perceived) illusion of "free will". Much in the same way the table senses the moisture of the full cup of cold water set upon it (the minor warping of the wood because of condensation) and the memory that implies. Yet we have additional technology (a self adjusting feedback loop that presupposes time and the opportunity for choice) to perceive as if we "act" upon the "memory" we're infected with. Within that is there not "free will" as illusory as it is? It's almost as if that elusive "Truth" with the capital "T" is outside anything we are ever capable of perceiving and lies outside of the illusion we are born to.

Last night I had an elaborate lucid dream which included what I perceived to be two types of "alien" one was traditionally angelic and seemed to be assisting the humans who were under attack by what I perceived to be traditionally demonic. Within the dream I had to defend a few people from what would have been collateral damage (as the two seemed more concerned about destroying each others forces than destroying or protecting my perceived environment and kin). By telekinetically throwing several husks of destroyed vehicles in the way I was able to save a few people and by that dream-sign (use of telekinesis) I became lucid. Now I had intended before sleep to find a "dream" entity and discuss the nature of reality and expanding my perspective but I chose to fly/teleport about exploring, helping and saving people. I had forgot my original intent as it was no longer relative. Is this what you mean by the "non-existense" of "free will"? Once my perspective changes so too does my intent and therefor my freewill is negated?

Thank you again.
 
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