| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 | Lester On Rifles and Riflery...
| Lester
User ID: 765711
 United States
9/8/2009 10:04 AM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
More rifle stuff worth knowing:
Don't overclean your barrel. Ed Shilen stated in Precision Shooting that he's seen more barrels damaged from zealous cleaning than any other cause. Patch out the gunk and brush with a bronze brush the correct or next size up, but don't be obsessive with cleaning.
If your rifle has performed to a high degree of accuracy before and this has gone byebye, then after you check the obvious causes, loose action screw(s), loose scope mount or ring mount, broken scope, loose barrel, ammunition; then it might be time to pull out the Sweets 7.62 or other aggressive copper cleaner and remove all traces from your barrel.
Same thing with a new-to-you rifle; removing all fouling and copper from the barrel brings you back to square one: You start whatever Break-In Process you follow all over. Shoot one, shoot five, patch and brush... This lays down the copper plating layer which smooths over the steel roughness in your bore. Might also try Tubb brand or other Fire-lapping cartridges on a new factory barrel. Shouldn't need these measures on ta custom barrel, if you do, contact the gunsmith or barrelmaker. Once you have re-Broken-In your barrel, it should restore its accuracy.
AR rifles need lubrication on the bolt and boltcarrier, plus trigger group internals to function smoothly and not wear their interacting parts. Grease or heavy oil like Phil Wood's Tenacious Oil on the rear lugs of your bolt, charging handle channel and groove gas key rides in are suggested. CLP or your own 15/40 synthetic blend of oily goop on the trigger springs etc, and other bolt, gas rings, and areas boltcarrier moves within upper receiver; IE the edges. A bit of oil on mag release and bolt release surfaces can't hurt either. Don't need to scrub out your barrel unless accuracy has deteriorated, just patch, brush, patch and be done. No Need To Ever Clean Gas Tube... Grease your recoil spring or tube if you don't like the "sprong" noise... Keep sights clean and oil their threads.
Always use a Dewey coated cleaning rod, and bore-guide if concerned with retaining precision. Steel or non-coated rods will wear the bore. Guide assures that rod won't drag. Your rifle can likely go hundreds of rounds without needing a cleaning.
Never shoot gun with oil in barrel. Patch out first.
If you leave oil in your barrel as a protective measure, store your rifle muzzle-down so oil won't drain into your action or stock inletting.
Carburetor cleaner is a good fouling remover. Might try acetone as well. I like to make my own solvent/gun oil with #1 heating oil or kerosene, some synthetic motor oil and a dash of hoppes, plus some silicon spray. Works good, gives that great Hoppes #9 smell and is cheap.
Don't clean optics with acetone. Use Kodak or other lens cleaner and lens tissue, or denatured alcohol. Acetone and other solvents will remove lens coatings and attack O-rings and sealants. Don't need to clean your scope unless mud or oil has made it obviously necessary. If you are obsessive about clean lenses, you are likely also over-cleaning your barrel and thus doing more damage to your gear than a bit of fouling or dust could ever do. Photographers don't obsess about lens cleaning; not the smart ones. Master shooters don't over-clean their gear. |
| Duncan Kunz 
The Debunker King
User ID: 762544
United States
9/8/2009 10:36 AM
 | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I got a Glock 19 9mm pistol,
A 12ga. Ithaca pump,and
A Black Prince Single 410.
But I still want an AR-15
and a 30/30.
And an AK-47 just to say I have one.
But the AR is next on my list. Quoting: J.Grey 764116
Why would you want both an AK-47 and a .30-30? The two cartridges have almost the same ballistics (although the new Hornady Leverolution bullets show promise...).
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim? |
| Avian
Got Gold?
User ID: 762328
United States
9/8/2009 10:39 AM
 | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I got a Glock 19 9mm pistol,
A 12ga. Ithaca pump,and
A Black Prince Single 410.
But I still want an AR-15
and a 30/30.
And an AK-47 just to say I have one.
But the AR is next on my list.
Why would you want both an AK-47 and a .30-30? The two cartridges have almost the same ballistics (although the new Hornady Leverolution bullets show promise...). Quoting: Duncan Kunz
my first survival rifle was the SKS..but when I had a slam fire one day inside my house I realized it was game over for that rifle...its been .223 and 30-06 from that point out
fight my brute phucktards
[link to ack12345.mybrute.com]
[link to the-rabbits-hole.com] |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 666102
United States
9/8/2009 10:46 AM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Who's got a link to a cleaning kit for an AR that doesn't use a metal rod. There must be something other than a bore snake. |
| Evil Twin 
Senior Forum Moderator
9/8/2009 11:00 AM
 | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
my first survival rifle was the SKS..but when I had a slam fire one day inside my house I realized it was game over for that rifle...its been .223 and 30-06 from that point out Quoting: Avian
Yikes!
I hope nobody was hurt!
It's important for anyone with a new-to-then SKS to disassemble the bolt and thoroughly clean the firing pin channel. Dried cosmoline or lacquer build up in there can and will cause a slam fire.
Always check it at every cleaning by shaking the bolt back and forth, the FP should rattle freely. If it doesn't, disassemble and clean, or at the very least, soak in acetone or give it a few shots of brake cleaner then blow out with compressed air.
Here's a spring loaded firing pin designed to alleviate the problem.
[link to www.murraysguns.com]
Considering becoming an "undocumented worker".
eviltwin618@yahoo.com |
| Lester
User ID: 765711
United States
9/8/2009 11:02 AM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
The USGI kits are great for .30 and .223; but keep them in the buttstock and don't use unless you have a ctg case stuck in your chamber, or have mud in your barrel...
Not kidding. Have not used or wanted to pay $20 for a piece of rope/cord to drop through barrel and pull a patch or brush with. Just get some nylon cord or HD fishing line and make your own. Tie a fishermans knot to an outers patch holder and pull it from the bore. Can do same with brush. Use heaviest line you can form the knot on and still clear the barrel.
Outers used to sell an aluminum take-down kit. Al is better than steel since it won't damage your barrel as readily as bare steel.
Might even try coating your USGI rod with some plasti-coat or liquid insulator, or look at lubricants that leave a teflon or PTFE coating once dry... If you carry a bore-guide you will do much less damage, and the brush and bore-guide will keep rod centered and keep it from wearing on barrel. Most important to not push brush/patch well past the muzzle, otherwise you drag rod on crown and do mucho damage. Clean brush in carburetor cleaner. Maybe find and O-ring that will go on your rod but still move easily in barrel?
Chrome-lined barrel probably not need to worry. |
| Evil Twin
Senior Forum Moderator
9/8/2009 11:05 AM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Who's got a link to a cleaning kit for an AR that doesn't use a metal rod. There must be something other than a bore snake. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 666102
[link to www.otisgun.com]
Considering becoming an "undocumented worker".
eviltwin618@yahoo.com |
| Lester
User ID: 765711
United States
9/8/2009 1:56 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Is a carbine a rifle?
I do not see the SKS or AK47 as rifles. Primarily this is a bias on my part due to intrinsic accuracy of the guns, and the minimal velocity of the round they fire. Can't really hotrod their potential too much. The Saiga may be a lengthened receiver, but the 7.62x39 is primarily a close-range blasting weapon with minimal accuacy, unless you think 4-6moa at 100yds is accurate?
Am not much on AR carbines either. An 18" barrel is about the line in the sand for me and is very usable. 20" is better for all-around use.
A carbine is a great tool. A lever action in a saddle scabbard while on horseback is a great convenience if you know ahead of time your horse won't spook at gunfire. A .22 carbine like the 10-22 or charter AR-7 is very handy, and can be very accurate. An AK or SKS has got a lot of comfort factor in a close-in environment.
I am not much on shotguns either. An 18" or so Rem 600 or model 7 would be a handy truck gun. The Scout Rifle is very handy and has many attributes. Yet none are a first choice. I do like the .44mag 1894 for 9rds of power and decent accuracy under 200yds. For guys who equate firing rounds downrange with "a good defense", then I'm sure the AK or SKS works just fine; but how many hits can yours put on a 3" circle at 100yds firing from a standing offhand position with no rest?
A .30-30 with aperture rear sight can probably serve almost any need out to 200yds. A bolt action .30-30 would be better in order to use pointed bullets, and many Contender users like the .30-30 for hunting. The Marlin 336 with a scope is a great tool because the scope mount doesn't interfere with ejection and the action is very strong, comparatively. If you handload, you want the Marlin, unless you just like the nostalgia of the Win 94.
Too bad Marlin doesn't make the 1895 guide gun in 460S&W or even .454Casull. That would be a great carbine to own.
The .500Beowulf and .458Socom are AR-15 uppers that are essentially carbines. Shooting 300-400gr bullets they will stop a bulldozer. Hell on bear in the thickets and moose as well. If you need a super heavy bullet, these will work, but you can't confuse them with "rifles"...
The AR rifle, will also serve on bear and moose. Twenty rounds of Barnes, Nosler or other premium bullet like the Speer Grand Slam will also work and there is the 60gr partition in .224 dia if you want a hunting bullet instead of the 77gr match.
A carbine loaded with match ammunition and a correct twist barrel to handle it may do just fine out to about 300yds, but you will wish you had a 20" rifle to enable you to hit those further out there targets that do present themselves... So I choose rifles... |
| Lester
User ID: 766751
United States
9/9/2009 1:07 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Funny thing about firearms discussion and the internet, much more interest by those posting in "What Should I Buy" and garnering or making comments on their gear selection and purchases than discussing actual shooting or discussion of WHY Choose certain gear. Perhaps this is understandable since so many own gear they have little occasion to actually use. Shooting from a benchrest or pistol stall at a gunrange is a very specialized sort of shooting. Yet for many it is their only convenient shooting environment.
About 11 or 12 years ago I built, assembled a .308 tactical rifle from a beater Rem 700 my dad gave me, a used Remington PSS barrel the guy who sold it to me said had 3200rds fired through it already, and a new H-S Precision Police (PSS) stock I bought at Brownells. Being half flush with funds at the time, I bought a Leupold Mark4 6x dot scope and Badger Ord rings & base. I loaded up a batch of 168gr matchkings to M1a magazine oal (in case they weren't accurate in the 700) and went shooting. Fired about 40 rds in 5 shot groups at a benchrest target at both 100 and 200 yds on a moderately windy day. The groups I shot were mostly Under .38" at 100, and under .7" at 200 yds. Not a lot of excitement. Yet very excellent accuracy. Subtract the .308 bullet diameter from the above #s and you grasp how good that rifle performed. Measured the targets at home on a dial caliper.
Nothing too exciting, call it beginners luck. Except I was only a beginner to the idea of measuring groups with a caliper and using a target dot sight. Pretty damn easy to sandbag a rifle using a Protektor bunny bag so the dot was always on the lower corner of the aiming square, press the 2lb trigger and make a small group. What really matters is not how well a rifle can shoot from a bench, but how well can I hold it in the field and hit with it...
Got rid of the dot scope to a Hunter Benchrest competitor. Finally found another 6x mk4 in mil-dot. They are great all-around riflescopes for tough conditions environments, like where I live. Sold the rifle, except for the barrel. Who wanted a plain-jane Rem 700 take off barrel that was halfway shot out? Me. Put that barrel onto a Long Action receiver and now have even more room to seat heavy or long Very Low Drag bullets in a magazine big enough to hold them. The action is an old one, has rear micrometer sight mount and a Redfield International sight and front barrel band aperture sight. Have been thinking about trimming back the barrel to 22". Interesting to finally have a .308win that will allow 200 and 220gr bullets to be properly seated. About all it might need is an Ackley Improved chamber which I can do, have already done to another barrel that was a Shilen #9 benchrest tube.
Not much better than a versatile relatively lightweight rifle with a scope that has hashmarks or mil-dots for fast, known value hold-off. Of course, precision ammunition is the biggest piece of the equation and being able to hold-hard, which means make tight groups without a bench or bipod. |
| Avian
Got Gold?
User ID: 762328
United States
9/9/2009 1:15 PM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
my first survival rifle was the SKS..but when I had a slam fire one day inside my house I realized it was game over for that rifle...its been .223 and 30-06 from that point out
Yikes!
I hope nobody was hurt!
It's important for anyone with a new-to-then SKS to disassemble the bolt and thoroughly clean the firing pin channel. Dried cosmoline or lacquer build up in there can and will cause a slam fire.
Always check it at every cleaning by shaking the bolt back and forth, the FP should rattle freely. If it doesn't, disassemble and clean, or at the very least, soak in acetone or give it a few shots of brake cleaner then blow out with compressed air.
Here's a spring loaded firing pin designed to alleviate the problem.
[ link to www.murraysguns.com]
I was actually renting it and the owner was out...I had to make some quick repairs of the wall, siding, soffit and roof
I need to clean it...I put a scope on the rear receiver cover so I didnt want to take it off to clean the bolt and FP only to have to resight in the scope again...arrrrgh
fight my brute phucktards
[link to ack12345.mybrute.com]
[link to the-rabbits-hole.com] |
| Duncan Kunz
The Debunker King
User ID: 767161
United States
9/9/2009 10:00 PM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
What I don't understand is why so many people talk about specialty guns when they appear not to have thought through the possible uses for a firearm.
Of course, as most of you know, I have never owned a firearm and never will, because the government will protect me, the police are my friends, and besides, guns kill people. but if I were going to procure a firearm, I would want to know what would I be using it most for.
Well, in a perfect world, all I would use a firearm for would be recreational hunting, so i would invest in a bolt-action rifle with a modest scope, chambered in a cartridge that would take any game animal in Arizona: the .30-'06 Spgfld.
But considering that my home may be invaded, I might get a slide-action 12-gauge shotgun with three barrels: the 18" cylinder bore, the 28" cylinder bore, and a 21" or 24" rifled slug barrel. The first of the three would be my home defense choice, using #7 dove load; the other two would make the shotgun a cost-effective supplement to my hunting rifle, bringing me the ability to hunt upland game, if I were of a mind to.
If I were in fear of attack while outside my home, I would procure a firearm which I could have with me at all times: a handgun. One of my very close friends, after owning several autoloading pistols, found that his wife and grown children preferred handguns they could understand and would be reliable; now each family member has a Taurus 4" SA/DA revolvers chambered in .357 magnum.
In a survival situation, a small game rifle would be advantageous. In this case, a single shot .22 rifle capable of chambering all three .22 cartridges would be a good plan, seeing as how it would help you to learn patience and shot placement; alternatively, a .177 cal or .22 cal air gun, fitted with a suppressor (which, of course, are perfectly legal to have, since an airgun is not a firearm). would enable you to do small scale animal hunting and keep a low profile while doing it.
I cannot see myself or my family engaging in any sort of fire-fight with mutant zombie bikers. While ammunition salesmen love the autoloading rifle, I simply have no use for them, nor do I think the majority of people here would, either.
Last Edited by Duncan Kunz on 9/10/2009 at 8:55 AM
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim? |
| J.Grey
User ID: 766322
United States
9/9/2009 10:12 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I got a Glock 19 9mm pistol,
A 12ga. Ithaca pump,and
A Black Prince Single 410.
But I still want an AR-15
and a 30/30.
And an AK-47 just to say I have one.
But the AR is next on my list.
Why would you want both an AK-47 and a .30-30? The two cartridges have almost the same ballistics (although the new Hornady Leverolution bullets show promise...). Quoting: Duncan Kunz
Just to say I have one.
But I want one of them
oldshcool beat up mean looking
ones.
And the John Wayne 30-30.
Lever action cowboy types.
What can I say I'm a GunNut. |
| Ricfly52
User ID: 272605
United States
9/9/2009 10:15 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Funny thing about firearms discussion and the internet, much more interest by those posting in "What Should I Buy" and garnering or making comments on their gear selection and purchases than discussing actual shooting or discussion of WHY Choose certain gear. Perhaps this is understandable since so many own gear they have little occasion to actually use. Shooting from a benchrest or pistol stall at a gunrange is a very specialized sort of shooting. Yet for many it is their only convenient shooting environment.
About 11 or 12 years ago I built, assembled a .308 tactical rifle from a beater Rem 700 my dad gave me, a used Remington PSS barrel the guy who sold it to me said had 3200rds fired through it already, and a new H-S Precision Police (PSS) stock I bought at Brownells. Being half flush with funds at the time, I bought a Leupold Mark4 6x dot scope and Badger Ord rings & base. I loaded up a batch of 168gr matchkings to M1a magazine oal (in case they weren't accurate in the 700) and went shooting. Fired about 40 rds in 5 shot groups at a benchrest target at both 100 and 200 yds on a moderately windy day. The groups I shot were mostly Under .38" at 100, and under .7" at 200 yds. Not a lot of excitement. Yet very excellent accuracy. Subtract the .308 bullet diameter from the above #s and you grasp how good that rifle performed. Measured the targets at home on a dial caliper.
Nothing too exciting, call it beginners luck. Except I was only a beginner to the idea of measuring groups with a caliper and using a target dot sight. Pretty damn easy to sandbag a rifle using a Protektor bunny bag so the dot was always on the lower corner of the aiming square, press the 2lb trigger and make a small group. What really matters is not how well a rifle can shoot from a bench, but how well can I hold it in the field and hit with it...
Got rid of the dot scope to a Hunter Benchrest competitor. Finally found another 6x mk4 in mil-dot. They are great all-around riflescopes for tough conditions environments, like where I live. Sold the rifle, except for the barrel. Who wanted a plain-jane Rem 700 take off barrel that was halfway shot out? Me. Put that barrel onto a Long Action receiver and now have even more room to seat heavy or long Very Low Drag bullets in a magazine big enough to hold them. The action is an old one, has rear micrometer sight mount and a Redfield International sight and front barrel band aperture sight. Have been thinking about trimming back the barrel to 22". Interesting to finally have a .308win that will allow 200 and 220gr bullets to be properly seated. About all it might need is an Ackley Improved chamber which I can do, have already done to another barrel that was a Shilen #9 benchrest tube.
Not much better than a versatile relatively lightweight rifle with a scope that has hashmarks or mil-dots for fast, known value hold-off. Of course, precision ammunition is the biggest piece of the equation and being able to hold-hard, which means make tight groups without a bench or bipod. Quoting: Lester
A lot of this post has to do with the fact that 99% of the public or more don't have a clue what you are talking about.
I do only because of had been in the military for 20 years, and because I was/are/is a big game hunter in Idaho, Montana, and Nevada.
Hey, I know what will kill a rocky mountian ELK. Many, many say the .270 is the wrong choice. But yet I have taken 15 elk since I was 12 years old with a .270. It is what it is. I have never lost an ELK from a poorly placed shot. I did lose a deer once due to that, and I still kick my ass about it.
It is very obvious that I have much to learn from you. And others here. But when it comes down to tshtf, I will eat! and survive!
Just trying to be a better man. |
| Lester
User ID: 766751
United States
9/9/2009 11:25 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Duncan,
Think Riflery... Being able to hit your target from a distance with enough power to bring home the venison or????
Have been interested in precision shooting and handloading since 8th grade. There is a great nationwide interest in precision shooting these days. The Internet likely being most responsible for this. Snipers, longrange hunters, benchrest, hunter benchrest, varmint shooters; ALL are as much or more into the gear, as the results. I find much to call attention to and have in this thread.
We did the Essential Skills thread about basic survivalism and self-sufficiency, then the Survival Guns thread.
Your friend with the .357s likely feels well-armed. My perspective as a handloader and enthusiast is that bigger caliber cartridges are more flexible, capable, and easier to shoot well. The .45acp is about the finest personal defensive handgun you can own. The 1911 pattern .45acp is the finest fighting handgun you can buy. For all-around use as a handloader, a 4" .44mag or 7" .454 Casull is the best thing going. The Great Truth about handguns is: heavy, large diameter bullets kill best and don't need great gobs of velocity (recoil generating gunpowder) to do their job. A target .45acp is likely the most accurate centerfire handgun going under 50yds. A .44mag loaded with a 250gr flat-nosed bullet at 850fps is a pleasure to shoot, but stops any man with one shot to the chest. The same round will take a rabbit without blowing it all to hell in a bloody heap. If you need to hunt, you have your magnum ammunition. If you don't handload, you can buy .44special ammunition. If you run .38sp ammo in a .357mag you are very marginal in your power level. If you are not a real Expert shooter, a .357 is pretty hard to control, plus will likely take more than one hit to down an attacker.
Same way with rifles. There are lots of cartridges and rifle mechanism designs. Only a few are really at the top of their game.
The precision shooting fraternity traces its origins from either the sniper, scout-sniper tradition of soldier-marksman; or benchrest gunsmith competitors and varmint shooters who saw innovations could be applied to hunting large game animals. Match shooters are mostly quietly doing their own things, more involved in bullet development and tools for their various game environments. Many of the developments I've seen in the past 12 years I view as inane and impractical. That is the way of fads, hobbies, and passing fancies.
Yet, to a hunter or Survivalist, a capable rifle is critical. A rifle, capable of 500yd sub moa accuracy, light enough to carry all day and not be a hindrance, powerful enough to do the job required, and flexible with a variety of ammunition.
The .308winchester is the chambering most encountered in the widest variety of precision rifles. There is a reason for this. One being that many of these rifles are bought by law enforcement entities and they need a standardized round and .308 fills the bill. Another reason is that the cartridge is just about optimum for mild recoil and inherent accuracy. Sure there are "better" cartridges for accuracy and benchrest precision, but the .308 does about everything so well it is "the universal standard" until big game or 800yd+ shooting is the goal.
Takes a lot of muscle control, eye-hand coordination, and discipline to shoot well; even more if shooting without a rest. Likely the chatter about "best gun and cartridge" is how those who can't shoot to their expectations chase their dragon; by looking for the gear that will make them better. Practice and cultivation of proper presentation and habits is what it takes; but there's no fun in talking about the compressed surprise break or muscle tensioning. The last thing that really matters is a $2500+ scope, but if it makes you feel better and you got the money? Oh well... |
| embu
User ID: 758011
United States
9/9/2009 11:46 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
no HK's or FN's? |
| think4yourself
User ID: 760354
United States
9/9/2009 11:53 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I got a Glock 19 9mm pistol,
A 12ga. Ithaca pump,and
A Black Prince Single 410.
But I still want an AR-15
and a 30/30.
And an AK-47 just to say I have one.
But the AR is next on my list.
Why would you want both an AK-47 and a .30-30? The two cartridges have almost the same ballistics (although the new Hornady Leverolution bullets show promise...).
my first survival rifle was the SKS..but when I had a slam fire one day inside my house I realized it was game over for that rifle...its been .223 and 30-06 from that point out Quoting: Avian
stupid is as stupid does... why in the hell were you even chambering a round in your HOUSE...
do also play with your nail gun and dewalt driver drill?
LOL |
| think4yourself
User ID: 760354
United States
9/9/2009 11:55 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
no HK's or FN's? Quoting: embu 758011
people with HK's and FN/FAL's don't need to discuss their weapons... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 767001
United States
9/10/2009 12:01 AM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
stupid is as stupid does... why in the hell were you even chambering a round in your HOUSE...
do also play with your nail gun and dewalt driver drill?
LOL Quoting: think4yourself
rude |
| Duncan Kunz
The Debunker King
User ID: 767161
United States
9/10/2009 9:00 AM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
people with HK's and FN/FAL's don't need to discuss their weapons... Quoting: think4yourself
I am sure that both the Heckler and the Fabrique, like the Springfield Arsenal M1A1, are fine sturmgewehrs, but who can afford the money to buy them, maintain their ammunition levels, and lug them around all day?
Last Edited by Duncan Kunz on 9/10/2009 at 9:02 AM
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim? |
| Lester
User ID: 767620
United States
9/10/2009 12:06 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
In my opening remarks, I mention that I went to AR-10 platform because M1a was just poorly suited to scope mounting. The rifle also has accuracy issues because no matter how well it is setup, stock bedding is a problem. Then there is the barrel-receiver-bolt design which is simply not equal to the AR in terms of potential....
Cost is what it is. If you want an precision AR you handload. Maybe you buy tons of Black Hils or Federal Gold if you don't handload? If so, you are cheating yourself and your rifle. I have never fired any factory produced ammunition that was equal to my handloads. If you are a duty-slotted shooter, you hope you get ammo that good, but if you can buy the rifle, you can afford to handload.
Actually prefer the AR-15 for its value, performance, lighter weight and less expensive ammunition, but... Only load 75/77gr bullets in mine and built the uppers with proper barrels and match parts.
The AR design is THE BEST overall for home or field maintenance and repair. Ever try to buy a USGI op-rod? Is it worth $500 to buy a complete GI op-rod and bolt? $1000 will still buy an AR-10T upper ready to pin on, patch out and shoot. $5-$600 buys an AR-15 upper. The Garand design requires much more intricate machine work for barrel profile than any AR, and a barrel wrench with fitted heads and barrel vise, plus a bench vise to remove the barrel; then there is the timing/slotting of the gas cylinder, vent hole, front sight and op-rod operation... Complex, but made in the day when 1st rate machinists were not rarities. The AR takes moments to change a barrel, and could probably be built from scratch in about an hour by someone who'd done it before.
The M1a and G3 etc are viable rifles, but are touted and valued more for what they WERE rather than what they are. Service Rifle shooters might own an M1a supermatch, but they shoot an AR-15 to win leg points. The rifles are as precise or better, easier to shoot, and ammunition cost is about 30% of what the .308 shooters pay.
For varmint hunting, game hunting under survival conditions, longrange precision and self-defense; the AR-15 works, and works well. A man hit at 500 meters by a 77gr match bullet might not die spectacularly, but his disability is what counts in war. Having one rifle that will do all the above is a Good Thing. The .243win became very popular for hunting, mainly with 85gr bullets. Of course the 5.56mm does not duplicate its velocity, but neither does it burn as much powder or errode barel throat at the rate done by the .243win.
Getting a bolt action rifle tuned and modified to deliver AR-15 level accuracy costs Big Bucks... It is not "worth it" in my book. Magnum longrange weapons and large bore hunting weapons are the exception. For hunting an AR-10 can be handloaded with Barnes or other premium bullets, and 20rds of 180gr premium bullets will kill anything that walks. Karamojo Bell killed elephant with the 7mm Mauser, afterall. He just didn't expect his quarry to drop in its tracks although sometimes they did. Brain shots just work that way... |
| malu
User ID: 593162
United States
9/10/2009 9:40 PM
 | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
ok, i just read the entire post, so i feel obligated to add to it. i recently purchased a rem 700 police tactical with a 10x mil dot scope, dream gun for me.
now i am thinking on trading it for another AR and just sticking with that, maybe buy an extra upper , for longer range shots. i liked the idea though of having an AR pistol, too bad you can't put a stock on it, slightly illegal
anywho, great thread, always enjoy your input Lester
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 862513
United States
1/11/2010 5:40 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
bump for topical discussion and all-around fun... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 833828
United States
1/11/2010 6:20 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
If I can't hit anything past 100 yards because of my own inability to shoot do I really need anything other than an something inexpensive like an SKS or AK? |
| Evil Twin
Senior Forum Moderator
1/11/2010 6:38 PM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
If I can't hit anything past 100 yards because of my own inability to shoot do I really need anything other than an something inexpensive like an SKS or AK? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 833828
IMO, an SKS would be a decent choice for someone like you. It's usually more accurate than the AK, and the ammo is cheap enough that you can practice a lot without breaking the bank.
You will start to see the limitations though, if you do practice enough to become a real good shot. Then you will find yourself wanting something better.
Considering becoming an "undocumented worker".
eviltwin618@yahoo.com |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 833828
United States
1/11/2010 6:47 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I would like to see a more conventional carbine in 5.7x28. That I think would be my ideal. If you haven't tried those cartridges that are great. Shoot great, little kick, very accurate and not much bigger than a .22lr so instead of carring an extra box of 50 9mm you could carry 100 5.7x28 at about the same weight and bulk. |
| Evil Twin
Senior Forum Moderator
1/11/2010 6:55 PM
| | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I would like to see a more conventional carbine in 5.7x28. That I think would be my ideal. If you haven't tried those cartridges that are great. Shoot great, little kick, very accurate and not much bigger than a .22lr so instead of carring an extra box of 50 9mm you could carry 100 5.7x28 at about the same weight and bulk. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 833828
There are a couple companies making AR uppers in 5.7x28 now.
[link to www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com]
Considering becoming an "undocumented worker".
eviltwin618@yahoo.com |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 794588
United States
1/11/2010 7:11 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
How bout a browning A-bolt medallion chambered for 7mm Magnum? Your thoughts? |
| Lester
User ID: 862513
United States
1/11/2010 7:53 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
I am sure a Browning A-bolt in 7mm magnum would make a fine hunting rifle. 7mm Rem is a great cartridge to have at your disposal. Lots of power, fine accuracy and great bullet selection for the handloader.
If you have a Browning or a Ruger and are happy with your results; super! But, if you are contemplating the purchase of a Browning or Ruger; I say look at Savage, Remington 700, and most strongly recommend Winchester 70 for a bolt rifle that might need to do precision duty. Am also not much on Weatherby, but Sako or Tikka are about the best for the money.
Most of these rifles are going to need some custom work or accessories. Savage has really built an accuracy cult with their products over the last 7 or 8 years. Lots of aftermarket gear for Savage. Remington 700 is the most popular, mainly for the inherent accuracy of the design and the many aftermarket pieces of gear. Winchester 70 is arguably The Best of the breed.
If you are shopping, the 7mm caliber has many great ctgs to offer 7mm/08, 7x57mm, .280Rem, and maybe the best of all the .284win. None of the magnum ctgs built on the H&H belted ctg or the short mags either offer very extensive barrel life.
If you are just shopping, give that some consideration. A .308win, .30-06 and other standard ctgs that aren't substantially over-bore will often stay accurate and capable of precision for 6-8,000 rds fired; maybe 10K rounds. Steyr says their .308 barrels in the SSG rifles will last 20K rounds fired. Wow! Yet, there are reasons not to go Steyr...
Recently, I've been investigating the 6.5x55mm. Bought one and it seems to do about everything a .270win could do; except there are tons of match quality bullets in 6.5mm and almost none in .277 cal. The 6.5/284 is the LongRange Match hotrod, but burns barrels out in about 1000 shots fired. The 6.5-06 is probably the best all-around rifle for anyone somewhat recoil sensitive but needing longrange performance. Supposeldy, the 6.5x55AI is the real ticket to ride, but...
Ruger, Browning, Weatherby are great hunting rifles, but for precision the others mentioned including Howa are better; or should say more popular and more favored by those doing that kind of shooting. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 794588
United States
1/11/2010 8:20 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Great input Lester! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 862513
United States
1/11/2010 8:36 PM | | Re: Lester On Rifles and Riflery... | Quote |
Too Kind! |
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