What's the difference what "day" a person comes to acknowledge God? Yesterday, this afternoon, or judgment day? Where in scripture does it say there's a cutoff time or deadline, after which confessing Christ as Lord is no longer an act of salvation? Also, are you suggesting that the "lost" are not going to willingly recognize God as Lord? Is the Spirit going to *force* them to mouth allegiance and yet *deny* them the promised reward for doing so? Makes no sense, considering He tells us plainly how offensive it is when people make declarations that their heart really is not into - even we humans find it objectionable. If He can force people into confessing Christ, why doesn't he just do that now before it's supposedly "too late"?
As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all live.
(Lemme guess, I misinterpreted this one, too, right?)
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 766086
"What's the difference what "day" a person comes to acknowledge God? Yesterday, this afternoon, or judgment day?"
The difference is absolutely paramount. Once Judgement Day comes, there will be no second chance.
"Where in scripture does it say there's a cutoff time or deadline, after which confessing Christ as Lord is no longer an act of salvation?"
Read Hebrews 9:27
"Also, are you suggesting that the "lost" are not going to willingly recognize God as Lord?"
You mean Jesus as LORD? Oh, they will. But for the ones who do so on Judgement Day, it'll be too late for forgiveness.
Is the Spirit going to *force* them to mouth allegiance and yet *deny* them the promised reward for doing so? Makes no sense, considering He tells us plainly how offensive it is when people make declarations that their heart really is not into - even we humans find it objectionable. If He can force people into confessing Christ, why doesn't he just do that now before it's supposedly "too late"?
Jesus won't force anyone to confess that he is LORD, it'll be as involuntary as breathing, or vomiting when nauseous, because the truth will be absolutely overwhelming. There will be no reward for those who deny Jesus before their death. Yes, being a hypocrite offends God greatly. Again, Jesus won't force anyone to come to him, but he does knock lightly at their hearts, because he does want them to live, but only by their own choice must they accept his invitation (God always helps though). No matter what the wicked may say, God is not a bully.
As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all live.
(Lemme guess, I misinterpreted this one, too, right?)
This is correct :)
Read 1 Corinthians 15:22 John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I'm so sorry if life for folks like these is so miserable that the wish of an immediate departure is this strong.
I really enjoy my life everyday. I have a great wife and an extremely cool 10 year old boy. I feel like I have heaven here now.
For the record, I am a devout agnostic. If this is the work of Satan, I thank Him.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 768094
All good things are from God, my friend. Satan supplies no good thing, I assure you. It seems the LORD has blessed you, but you must give credit where it is due.
Many do not understand the implications of said Rapture, and I would just like to express my thoughts on the matter.
If the Rapture does occur before, what we call, the "Tribulation", then that means we will be present with God. The very creator of life itself. The same creator who has blessed you with such a healthy, beautiful family. John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all live.
A (Lemme guess, I misinterpreted this one, too, right?)
BWell lets put it this way... where is the quote?
A Are you talking about this bit from 1 Corinthians 15?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 766086
A Yeah well if you look at that verse in context it is quite obvious that it does not support your position that there is no judgement...
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
B Only people who intend to mislead do not provide bible quotes when it is within their capability to do so. I could understand if you where relying on memory and quoting as best as you can. But in this case you have no excuse because you knew where the quote was and should have provided it.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/17/2009 at 12:02 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 146056 9/15/2009 4:06 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
After the tribulation (sorry, no pre-trib rapture).
The Bible is clear that the rapture occurs at the LAST trumpet.
Here's an excerpt from Matthew 24:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Again... AFTER the tribulation.
9teen.47™ Time is short. User ID: 771426 9/15/2009 4:11 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
That happened in November 2003 for the Harmonic Concordance. Spiritual people were celebrating all over the world when the sign of the Son of Man was created by the planets during the Lunar eclipse.
It was a global happening and the elect were all involved.
Lotus
Quoting: Lotus Feet
Ya know Lotus Feet,
I reckon that there will be a special place in hell for people like you who deliberately and knowingly twist the truth and try to steer people away from the Lord. You really, really don't want to go there.
The "Harmonic Concordance/Conversion" was recognized at the time by discerning Christians as yet another New Age Satanic ritual. So screw you and your lies.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/17/2009 at 12:03 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "Where in scripture does it say there's a cutoff time or deadline, after which confessing Christ as Lord is no longer an act of salvation?"
Read Hebrews 9:27
Quoting: Goddrunk
OK, let's look at it:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
The original Greek word translated "judgment" there is krisis. Hopefully we know what a crisis is, right? In fact, here's a definition, from a scientific page which has no investment in the matter. . .
<< The term crisis comes from the Greek noun krisis (choice, decision, judgment), deriving from the Greek verb krinein (to decide). The word makes an ancient debut in Greek historical writing via the legal, medical, and rhetorical terminology as the turning point in a decision, illness, or argument >>
And from this you conclude that there can be no forgiveness unless one confesses Christ as Lord *before* they pass from this life?
So many of us are insistent that God's is handcuffed, that this amazing plan of redemption he's literally poured himself into hinges delicately on the "choice" of the lost, as if we can somehow resist his call indefintely. In fact, lost people whom he says are selfish, corrupt, foolish, and blinded even. How can such people be expected to be able to make the right choice?
Why don't we really believe Jesus can save to the uttermost?
Eternal hellfire isn't scriptural. This doctrine is the result of poor/deceptive English translation of the original Hebrew and Greek, coupled with our relgious bloodlust that the "wicked" get what they allegedly "deserve". Hell is a pagan fairytale that was introduced into the church along with xmas and easter and saint worship. Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "Where in scripture does it say there's a cutoff time or deadline, after which confessing Christ as Lord is no longer an act of salvation?"
Read Hebrews 9:27
OK, let's look at it:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
The original Greek word translated "judgment" there is krisis. Hopefully we know what a crisis is, right? In fact, here's a definition, from a scientific page which has no investment in the matter. . .
<< The term crisis comes from the Greek noun krisis (choice, decision, judgment), deriving from the Greek verb krinein (to decide). The word makes an ancient debut in Greek historical writing via the legal, medical, and rhetorical terminology as the turning point in a decision, illness, or argument >>
And from this you conclude that there can be no forgiveness unless one confesses Christ as Lord *before* they pass from this life?
So many of us are insistent that God's is handcuffed, that this amazing plan of redemption he's literally poured himself into hinges delicately on the "choice" of the lost, as if we can somehow resist his call indefintely. In fact, lost people whom he says are selfish, corrupt, foolish, and blinded even. How can such people be expected to be able to make the right choice?
Why don't we really believe Jesus can save to the uttermost?
Eternal hellfire isn't scriptural. This doctrine is the result of poor/deceptive English translation of the original Hebrew and Greek, coupled with our relgious bloodlust that the "wicked" get what they allegedly "deserve". Hell is a pagan fairytale that was introduced into the church along with xmas and easter and saint worship.
Quoting: MuadDib987 (nli)
I'm surprised at you, man. I thought you knew better. Hell is eternal and real. God has shown people hell.. You going to call them liars now? Jesus even told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Is Jesus a liar now, or am I just twisting scripture? John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
B Only people who intend to mislead do not provide bible quotes when it is within their capability to do so. I could understand if you where relying on memory and quoting as best as you can. But in this case you have no excuse because you knew where the quote was and should have provided it.
Quoting: 9teen.47™
Bullshit. X) I *was* relying on memory, and Y) I kind of assumed you'd know it off the top o' yer head ;)
Too bad I have no excuse. I guess I better come up with a good story to tell Him when he attaches jumper cables to my nipples and asks me why I tried to deceive 19.47™.
Hell is a church-approved myth.
Christ is the Savior, and in him will all be saved, eventually.
Why don't you have any faith that he's able to save? Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
9teen.47™ Time is short. User ID: 771426 9/15/2009 4:23 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
After the tribulation (sorry, no pre-trib rapture).
Again... AFTER the tribulation.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 682255
682255,
I am not going to get into an argument with you about when the rapture will actually occur. My point is that non of us can guarantee that we will still be here tomorrow. If you die today, then today is the day of the rapture as far as you are concerned.
1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/17/2009 at 12:05 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
B Only people who intend to mislead do not provide bible quotes when it is within their capability to do so. I could understand if you where relying on memory and quoting as best as you can. But in this case you have no excuse because you knew where the quote was and should have provided it.
Bullshit. X) I *was* relying on memory, and Y) I kind of assumed you'd know it off the top o' yer head ;)
Too bad I have no excuse. I guess I better come up with a good story to tell Him when he attaches jumper cables to my nipples and asks me why I tried to deceive 19.47™.
Hell is a church-approved myth.
Christ is the Savior, and in him will all be saved, eventually.
Why don't you have any faith that he's able to save?
Quoting: MuadDib987 (nli)
ALL are saved. That means ALL the ones who put their trust in Christ, not all people. You're preaching some loose garbage. You need to repent. Sin is not okay. John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/17/2009 at 12:06 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "Where in scripture does it say there's a cutoff time or deadline, after which confessing Christ as Lord is no longer an act of salvation?"
Read Hebrews 9:27
OK, let's look at it:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
The original Greek word translated "judgment" there is krisis. Hopefully we know what a crisis is, right? In fact, here's a definition, from a scientific page which has no investment in the matter. . .
<< The term crisis comes from the Greek noun krisis (choice, decision, judgment), deriving from the Greek verb krinein (to decide). The word makes an ancient debut in Greek historical writing via the legal, medical, and rhetorical terminology as the turning point in a decision, illness, or argument >>
And from this you conclude that there can be no forgiveness unless one confesses Christ as Lord *before* they pass from this life?
So many of us are insistent that God's is handcuffed, that this amazing plan of redemption he's literally poured himself into hinges delicately on the "choice" of the lost, as if we can somehow resist his call indefintely. In fact, lost people whom he says are selfish, corrupt, foolish, and blinded even. How can such people be expected to be able to make the right choice?
Why don't we really believe Jesus can save to the uttermost?
Eternal hellfire isn't scriptural. This doctrine is the result of poor/deceptive English translation of the original Hebrew and Greek, coupled with our relgious bloodlust that the "wicked" get what they allegedly "deserve". Hell is a pagan fairytale that was introduced into the church along with xmas and easter and saint worship.
I'm surprised at you, man. I thought you knew better. Hell is eternal and real. God has shown people hell.. You going to call them liars now? Jesus even told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Is Jesus a liar now, or am I just twisting scripture?
Quoting: Goddrunk
Jesus spoke of a local garbage dump named Gehenna. It's no small problem that King James' scholars translated this using the word "hell" which ties into the widely recognized mythical underworld that has snowballed into a place of literal flames for the wicked dead. If I produced a "new" bible translation that renamed "Bethlehem" as "Gotham City", you think christians wouldn't be throwing major fits? Same exact thing, and yet we *worship* the lie that they've slipped into the mix.
Have you ever compared the discrepancies among the dozens of celebrated visions of hell people are always selling? Anyway, they must all be true - nobody could ever be deceived somehow with religious delusions.
The account of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. here's the link, and I'll go ahead and copy/paste to avoid any of that insidious deception I'm so famous for. . .
By Ernest L. Martin, Ph. D., 1984
Edited by David Sielaff, June 2003
Read the accompanying Newsletter for June 2003
This section of Scripture has been more misunderstood by students of the Bible than many other parts of the divine revelation. There is a definite reason for it! It is the assumption that Christ is relating a story of literal occurrences, rather than an account rehearsed in parable form. The truth is, however, the narrative is a parable from beginning to end. Once this important point is understood, the meaning becomes clear and significant.
A sure and quick way to inflame the wrath of some preachers and Christian laity is to say the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. They will not have it! The mere suggestion that the account is symbolic is enough to bring on the charge of "theological liberalism." To many people today the normal bedrock of teaching concerning Christ’s judgment upon sinners rests with the literality of this story. And one must admit, it shows a judgment of severest consequences! It seems to state, in vivid and graphic detail, the condition of wicked sinners after death. They appear to be conscious, in extreme torment, engulfed in flames that will never be extinguished and that they will remain in such excruciating pain for all eternity. And true enough, if the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable of thoroughly symbolic meaning, this would be their fate!
Such a scene is so horrendous to imagine that it is no wonder vast numbers of fearful people walk down the aisle to accept Christ after hearing a sermon on the literality of the story. It never seems to occur to such preachers that this consignment by Christ to a never-ending judgment for sins committed in this short life, makes Him to be the most unjust and unreasonable person in the universe. Simply because someone in China or the Soviet Union (to pick two atheistic countries) never had a chance to hear of Jesus Christ and His redemptive message, and confine him to a never-ending HELL is beyond belief for a merciful and loving God who sent His only begotten son to save and redeem this world (John 3:16). However, this interpretation is part of the exact scenario being preached in many churches and revivals today. And let’s face it, that is precisely what ought to be taught if lazarus and the rich man is a literal narrative.
Thankfully, there cannot be the slightest doubt that the whole account is a parable from start to finish. What many people conveniently fail to realize is the proclivity of teachers, speaking in early Semitic languages like Hebrew (or even in Greek when speaking in a Semitic environment), to constantly use the symbolic or parable form of teaching to the people they taught. Christ was no exception!
"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes IN PARABLES and without a parable spoke he not unto them. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, ‘I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.’"
Matthew 13:34–35
Parables are a form of storytelling in which the physical features of some well-known subjects are exemplified to relate an essential spiritual teaching. On many occasions the incidents are greatly exaggerated to heighten the teaching. One famous example is that of Christ when he said the mustard seed was the smallest of seeds (when everyone knew it was not) and it becomes the greatest of trees (which again was not literally true). See Matthew 13:32. No one in the first century would have thought that Christ was stretching the facts. Of course he was! But it was a simple form of teaching that all people were using in that time. 1
Since we are told dogmatically that Christ was always in the habit of speaking to the people in parables (as a common mode of instruction in the Semitic world of the first century), why do people today insist on the literality of symbolic language, while people in Christ’s day normally did not? Note one thing that the apostle Paul said which has to do with the fire of judgment, yet no one in ancient times (or even today) takes literally. Paul said: "If your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap COALS OF FIRE on his head" (Rom.12:20, from Proverbs 25:22). This mention of the fires of judgment on a person was only intended in a figurative sense. It shows that a person’s conscience would be "singed." No literal fire was meant!
And so it is with the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man! No one with common sense could possibly believe that Christ was giving literal teaching. The whole thing is figurative from start to finish, and anyone who says differently should examine the matter closer.
Let us now look at the subject carefully. In no way should a person believe that literal acts were being discussed by Christ. Practically every detail of the story has a symbolic meaning to it, and this can be shown so clearly. When a person adopts an erroneous literality to the account, the message that Christ was trying to convey is destroyed and its true symbolic meaning is tarnished!
A Parable Throughout
The first thing to notice is the fact that Lazarus ate of the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man’s table. Now, are the crumbs literal or symbolic? If literal, then tell me how Lazarus would have had enough to eat? A few measly crumbs could hardly feed any grown man. Obviously, Christ meant that the man ate the scraps (intended for dogs or other animals). However, the literalists would demand real crumbs so they can get the Rich Man into a real burning hell!
Then it says that Lazarus died and was carried by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. Where was Abraham’s bosom? Some people say it signifies the heavenly abode, heaven. In fact, the bosom of Abraham actually means the breast part of his body. Can they get Lazarus and ten million other redeemed Christians in that one bosom of Abraham? There would not be any room to breathe, let alone stretch ones arms. All people, however, rightly recognize that Christ is here giving a symbol. True! That is just the point that we wish to make! If one part is figurative, all can be!
We then find that Abraham is able to carry on a conversation with the Rich Man and that Lazarus could be seen with Abraham, though the text says that Abraham was "afar off." How were they able to talk with one another? If Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven (as many preachers claim today), it shows that the redeemed would still be in constant contact with the rebellious sinners in hell and that the redeemed would be seeing their tortured and agonized faces as they writhed in unrelenting pain. Indeed, they are close enough to be in conversation with them! Can you imagine the joy and happiness the saints would have while viewing the agony of all the wicked in hell for all eternity? But if this story of Christ were to be taken literally, that would be the outcome. What glory would it be to see your unredeemed father, your unconverted mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, wife or husband having to experience the rigors of an eternally burning hell without any relief ever in sight, while you bask in the sunshine and happiness of Abraham’s bosom? And remember Abraham was close enough to carry on a conversation with the Rich Man. And the Rich Man was close enough to Lazarus to recognize him.
Another thing that is highly irregular of our experience is the fact that the Rich Man was able to speak at all. Would he not more likely be screaming his head off at the terrible excruciating pain that he was being subjected to? Again, if the account is literal, we find a most impossible situation in the story. Even more than that, what does the Rich Man seek from Lazarus? It is not to drag him out of the fire, but simply to take a drop of cold water and put on his tongue. Why, the Rich Man ought to know that such a thing would not relieve his pain in the slightest! How can a drop of physical water give benefit to a spirit being (as the Rich Man would be)? The water, if literal, would turn into steam before it could do any good. And why did not the man ask Abraham to bring the drop of water to his tongue to cool it? Abraham was far closer to the Rich Man, or at least it looks this way because there was no conversation with Lazarus. What was so special about Lazarus that his drop of water would cool his tongue, but Abraham was not asked for any help?
The point is, the whole scene (though instructive and significant in what our Lord was trying to teach) is impossible to explain sensibly if Christ was teaching fact. However, make it a parable (as it truly is, remembering that Christ would not teach without a parable), then the message becomes beautiful and understandable. Again, everyone knows Paul did not mean literal "coals of fire on one’s head" in Romans 12:20.
The True Story in Detail
The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable (Matthew 13:34). Once this is recognized the interpretation behind the narrative can become quite meaningful. It is also very important to note the context in which the parable is found. There was a reason why Christ spoke this parable at that time. Christ had just given His teaching about the unjust steward who had mishandled his master’s money (Luke 16:1–13). This parable was told to further illustrate what proper stewardship is.
Let us first consider the identification of Lazarus. This is the only time in Christ’s parables that a person’s name is used. Some have imagined that this use of a personal name precludes the story being a parable. But this is hardly true. The name "Lazarus" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Eleazar" (which means "God has helped"). The name was a common Hebrew word used for eleven different persons in the Old Testament.
When one analyzes the parable, this Eleazar can be identified. He was one who must have had some kind of affinity with Abraham (or the Abrahamic covenant), for the parable places him in Abraham’s bosom after death. But he was probably a Gentile. The phrase "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table" was typical of Gentile identification (see Matthew 15:22–28). Even the phrase "laid at his gate" is reminiscent of the normal one used by Jews to denote the Gentile proselyte "Proselyte of the Gate." This Eleazar must also have been associated with stewardship because Christ gave the parable precisely for the reason of explaining what represents the true steward.
There was only one Eleazar in the historical part of the Bible that fits the description. He was a person associated with Abraham, he was a Gentile (not an ethnic part of the Abrahamic family), and a steward. He was Eleazar of Damascus, the chief steward of Abraham.
"And Abram said, ‘Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eleazar [Lazarus] of Damascus and lo, one born in my house is mine heir.’"
Genesis 15:2–3
Long ago it was suggested that the Lazarus of the parable represented the Eleazar associated with Abraham (Geiger, JuJ Zejtschr., 1868, p. 196 sq.), but for some reason very few modern commentators have taken up the identification. But once this simple connection is made, a flood of light emerges on the scene which can interpret the parable with real meaning.
The Lazarus of the parable represented Abraham’s faithful steward Eleazar. And faithful he was! Though he had been the legal heir to receive all of Abraham’s possessions (Genesis 15:3), Abraham gave him an assignment which was to result in his own disinheritance. But the Bible shows he carried out the orders of Abraham in a precise (and faithful) way.
"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house [Eleazar], that ruled over all that he had, ‘Put, I pray thee, your hand under my thigh: and I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that you shall not take a wife unto my son [Isaac] of the daughters of the Canaanites.’"
Genesis 24:2–3
Eleazar agreed to do what Abraham desired, although the fulfillment of his task meant the complete abandonment of Eleazar’s claim to any of Abraham’s inheritance—both present and future! Each step that Eleazar took northward to procure a wife for Isaac was a step towards his own disqualification. Eleazar recognized this, for he admitted to Laban, Rebecca’s brother, that "unto him [Isaac] hath he [Abraham] given all that he hath" (Genesis 24:36). There was nothing left for him! Thus, Eleazar’s faithfulness to Abraham resulted in his own disinheritance from all the promises of blessing which God had given to Abraham. They were now given to Isaac and his future family. That inheritance included wealth, prestige, power, kingship, priesthood, and the land of Canaan as an "everlasting" possession. But now Eleazar was "cast out." He and his seed would inherit nothing. Thus, the parable calls Lazarus a "beggar" who possessed nothing of earthly worth.
Who Was the Rich Man?
The Rich Man was an actual son of Abraham. Christ had him calling Abraham his "father" (Luke 16:24) and Abraham acknowledged him as "son" (verse 25). Such sonship made the Rich Man a legal possessor of Abraham’s inheritance. Indeed, the Rich Man had all the physical blessings promised to Abraham’s seed. He wore purple, the symbol of kingship, a sign that the Davidic or Messianic Kingdom was his. He wore linen, the symbol of priesthood, showing that God’s ordained priests and the Temple were his. Who was this Rich Man who possessed these blessings while living on the earth?
The Israelite tribe that finally assumed possession of both the kingdom and priesthood, and the tribe which became the representative one of all the promises given to Abraham, was Judah. There can not be the slightest doubt of this when the whole parable is analyzed. Remember that Judah had "five brothers." The Rich Man also had the same (verse 28).
"The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob’s firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and Judah, and [4] Issachar, and [5] Zebulun."
Genesis 35:23
"And Leah said ... ‘now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him six sons.’"
Genesis 30:20
Judah and the Rich Man each had "five brethren." Not only that, the five brothers of the parable had in their midst "Moses and the prophets" (verse 29). The people of Judah possessed the "oracles of God" (Romans 3:1–2). Though the Rich Man (Judah) had been given the actual inheritance of Abraham’s blessings (both spiritual and physical), Christ was showing that he had been unfaithful with his responsibilities. When the true inheritance was to be given, Judah was in "hades" and "in torment" while Lazarus (Eleazar, the faithful steward) was now in Abraham’s bosom. He was finally received into the "everlasting habitations" (verse 9).
"A Great Gulf Fixed"
The parable says that a "great gulf" [Greek: chasm] was fixed between the position of Abraham and Eleazar and that of the Rich Man [Judah]. What was this chasm? The Greek word means a deep ravine or valley — a great canyon with cliffs on each side. Its two sides were also "afar off" from each other (verse 23). It was "a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (verse 26). Note the italicized word "pass." In all other occasions of its grammatical use in the New Testament, the word was used to denote a passage over water. And in Greek imagery of the abodes of the dead, there was usually some kind of water barrier between the righteous dead and the wicked — either a river or ocean. This is also represented in Jewish conceptions of the compartments for the dead — "by a chasm, by water, and by light above it" (Enoch, ch. 22).
It was also common for many chasms (those described in Greek literature) to have water in their regions of deepest declivity. Let us now look at such a chasm from a Palestinian point of view. In that environment there is only one possible identification for the "great gulf" of the parable if it is to fit the meaning of the Greek chasm precisely. This would be the great rift valley between the highlands of Trans-Jordan and the hill country of Ephraim in which the River Jordan flows. This fault line is the greatest and longest visible chasm on earth. And what a spectacular sight it is! As one looks over the chasm he sees impressive cliffs on each side, a desert in its wastelands, and the River Jordan meandering in the center.
Identifying the chasm of the parable with the Jordan rift unfolds a beautiful symbolic story well recognized in contemporary Jewish allegorical narratives of the time. In the center of this "gulf" was the River Jordan. It divided the original land of promise given to Abraham from ordinary Gentile lands. The west side of Jordan represented the area that the Bible considered the original Holy Land. As the angel said to Joshua: "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon stand is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:15). When the Israelites finally entered the chasm of the Jordan and crossed the river, they then considered themselves in the Holy Land the land promised to Abraham and his seed!
Entering the land of Canaan (west of Jordan) was also a symbol of final spiritual salvation. The author of Hebrews recognized that Israel’s crossing of the River Jordan under Joshua (and the taking of the land of Canaan) was typical of Christians obtaining their true "rest" in the future Kingdom of God (Hebrews 3:1–4:11). Even American Negro spirituals with which so many of us are familiar ("crossing into Canaan’s land") are reflective of this early symbolic theme.
Recall also that the Rich Man was depicted as being in flames of judgment (verse 24). In this same rift valley were formerly located the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah which were "set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
"Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those who should after live ungodly."
2 Peter 2:6
When the allegorical applications are understood, the teaching of the parable becomes simple and instructive. The theme of Christ’s narrative was true stewardship. Though Eleazar [Lazarus], Abraham’s trusted steward, had disinherited himself from earthly rewards by his faithful obedience to Abraham’s wishes, he was later to find himself (after death, when true inheritance comes) in Abraham’s bosom. But the chief representative of Abraham’s actual sons (Judah, the spiritual leader of all the Israelite tribes) remained East of Canaan as far as true inheritance was concerned. He had inherited all the physical blessings while in the flesh, but at death he was not allowed to pass the spiritual Jordan into the final Abrahamic inheritance.
Like Moses, because of rebellion, he was not allowed to pass the "great gulf" to enjoy the land of milk and honey. True enough, Judah had been blessed with the kingship, priesthood, the divine scriptures, the prophets, and other untold blessings, but he was not allowed to enjoy the true spiritual blessings of the future because he was unfaithful with his sonship and was refusing the true message of salvation offered by God’s own Son. Christ said: "Neither will they he persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31).
The Final Appraisal
The only Gospel to carry the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was Luke who was the companion of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. It showed a specific message that Gentiles could now inherit the promises to Abraham provided they were faithful as Eleazar had been. Yet Paul did not want the Gentiles to be conceited in their new relationship with God.
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeks for ... God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, ears that they should not hear; unto this day."
Romans 11:8
But "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid" (verse 11). "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles [like Lazarus-Eleazar]; how much more their fullness" (verse 12). One of these days, according to Paul, "all Israel shall be saved" (verse 26). God will show mercy on the natural sons of Abraham as He has on faithful Gentile stewards. This shows that the hades, the purple, the linen, the torment, Abraham’s bosom, the great gulf, and even the persons of Lazarus and the Rich Man were all symbolic and not literal. After all, the narrative was a parable.
Summary of the Symbols
The Lazarus of the parable was Eleazar, Abraham’s steward (Genesis 15:2).
He was a Gentile "of Damascus" ("a proselyte of the gate") who "ate the crumbs."
He was disinherited (to become a beggar) but he remained faithful to Abraham and God.
When this earthly life was over, he received Abraham’s inheritance after all (he was in Abraham’s bosom) — in "everlasting habitations."
The Rich Man of the Parable was Judah. This son of Jacob had five literal brothers as did the Rich Man.
He was also a literal son of Abraham, while Eleazar (Lazarus) was not!
The Rich Man (Judah) also had the kingship (purple) and the priesthood (linen).
Yet Judah (representing God on this earth) was not the true steward of the Abrahamic blessings.
Though he and his literal brothers had been graced with the "oracles of God" (the Old Testament) they would not respond to the One resurrected from the dead (Christ).
The "great gulf" was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands and the Holy Land of promise (Abraham’s inheritance). Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.
Once these factors are recognized, all the points in the parable (with its context) fit perfectly to give us some simple but profound teachings of Christ. It shows that the physical promises of God (though excellent) are very inferior to the spiritual redemption that anyone (Jew or Gentile) can have in Christ.
Concluding Remarks about Hell
What are the consequences of sin? We are told by many people who view the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally, plus some scriptures in the book of Revelation, that it means to be in hell fire for all eternity. Let us also understand the book of Revelation is very symbolic! Though it speaks of the rebellious being tormented with fire and brimstone for ever and ever (for the ages of the ages), it is also the same book that speaks of Jesus Christ, equally in symbolic form, of looking like a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes in his face (Revelation 6:6 with 14:10–11). This section is, of course, symbolic as anyone can see.
This does not mean that figurative teaching has an unpractical meaning. Far from it! What must be discovered is the real teaching. Take, for example, the punishments God gives for sins. There are hundreds of scriptures that show God’s retribution upon individuals and the world for their rebellion to Him and their harm to mankind. But the punishments of judgment are not to burn literally in a hell fire forever! Indeed, judgment is now on the house of God.
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
1 Peter 4:17
No sinning saint is now in the fires of judgment. All people sin — alas, even Christians from time to time (1 John 1:8), but all are promised eternal life — yet they suffer the loss of certain wonderful rewards for the millennial period if they persist in sin,
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. … Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
1 Corinthians 3:11–15
The Bible says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God when people rebel against Him (Hebrews 10:31), even though Christian people are sanctified and their salvation is secure in Christ (Hebrews 10:14).
When the whole of the Bible is studied on the matter, it is seen that the judgment of hell after death is symbolic. People who have had some "near death" experiences and thought they were going to a burning hell, were having hallucinations inspired by their imaginations. 2 After all, people who have been taught all their lives about a literal hell fire to be experienced for all eternity, have difficulty in eradicating such things from their minds at the point of death — and this is more so if they think they are dying as sinners. However, Christ came to save the world, and He will do it!
The geographical area that was a symbol of fiery judgment was the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) at the southeast corner of Jerusalem. It was the city dump. Normally, fires were set in the region to burn up the refuse. If dead bodies were placed there in time of war (or sometimes in pagan rituals), worms would emerge to destroy the carcasses. This is what Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:44–48 are talking about. Of course, the fires were in a separate area from the worms because worms cannot live in flames.
The whole thing was intended to be figurative in the first place. Gehenna (hell) was known as Tophet (Isaiah 30:33 with Jeremiah 7:31) and remarkably the entire area will one day become holy to the Lord (Jeremiah 31:38–40). There will certainly not be any eternal fires in Gehenna. (The "unquenchable fires" of Matthew 3:12 are fires that cannot be put out with water or soil until they have consumed all the combustible material.)
The truth is, it can be shown conclusively that the consequences of doing sin are NOT to be placed in a hell fire forever and ever. The Bible makes the issue plain for all to see if only people will believe its simple teaching. Many do not want to do this, and they insist on making literal what the Scripture allows only to be symbolic.
Look at this closely. It is simple and plain. All Christians know that the Bible emphatically states that Jesus paid for all our sins (even the sins of the world) when He died on the cross. If anyone disputes this fact, then the very essence of the theological teaching of the New Testament is thwarted.
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2
This is abundantly true! But now note this! If the consequences of sin were to be placed in a hell fire to be burned forever, then for Christ to have paid the penalty of our sins (so we do not have to suffer it), then Christ would have to be in that hell fire forever — always suffering the consequences of our sins. After all, the Bible says that Christ took our punishment. But Christ was alive from the dead some three days later, and is presently in heaven with the Father. He is not in an eternal hell fire undergoing the consequences of our sins! All of the scriptures speaking about the punishment of fire are symbolic. If they are not, then they would violate this fundamental theological fact of the New Testament that Christ paid the punishment for our sins without being burnt in any flames.
Indeed, what did Christ do for us? The Bible says "He died" (Romans 3:34). And what are the wages of sin? — the consequences of sin?
"For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23
The result of sin is death — not life in hell fire or anywhere else! What Jesus did was to be crucified for us on the cross. He did not go into hell fire to burn forever — or else He would still be there!
One other point needs to be made. Some denominations say that the wages of sin are eternal death (nonexistence). But this cannot be true. If it were, then Christ (in order to pay the penalty for our sins) would have had to remain dead for all eternity! Yet He was dead for only three days! He is now with the Father in heaven and getting ready to return to this earth to redeem His saints at the resurrection of the just. Others have said that since all humans have to die the first (physical) death (Hebrews 9:27), it is the second death that Christ died for us. But how can that be? The second death is the Lake of Fire in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 20:14), and it is obvious that Christ did not go into any literal Lake of Fire while He died on the cross. His death was for us!
What Christ did do for you, me and all mankind was to make it possible for all death to be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26) which He will accomplish in His own good time. Only "life" will then exist!
The fact is, the Bible makes perfectly good sense on the matter of the punishments for sin. It is when well-intentioned, but erroneous, interpreters begin to make symbolic scriptures to be literal, that all of the problems emerge. All becomes confusing and contradictory when this type of procedure is used. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a pure parable from beginning to end. It makes perfectly good sense and tells a wonderful and significant story that any student of the Bible can relate to. Let us learn to leave the parables as parables! The Bible will become plain if we do.
"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes in parables; and without a parable spoke he not unto them."
Matthew 13:34
Ernest L. Martin, 1984
Edited by David Sielaff, June 2003
1 In case someone wants to be silly enough to dispute the accuracy of Christ’s symbolic language, would people today correct you if you said: "I am so hungry I could eat a horse"? Anyone with sense knows it is not literally possible for one to consume a horse in one meal! Everyone would know you were using figurative language and accept it.
2 It is also heightened by their bodily stress and oxygen to the brain. Usually, near death experiences reflect the beliefs, wishes and life experience of those experiencing the trauma. The apostle Paul died three times and did not indicate that any of the revelations from God occurred during those incidents. DWS >> Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
I reckon that there will be a special place in hell for people like you who deliberately and knowingly twist the truth and try to steer people away from the Lord. You really, really don't want to go there.
The "Harmonic Concordance/Conversion" was recognized at the time by discerning Christians as yet another New Age Satanic ritual. So screw you and your lies.
Quoting: 9teen.47™
But don't you twist the truth as well.And what do you
know of truth.I see from your posts you know very little
of the truth.
ALL are saved. That means ALL the ones who put their trust in Christ, not all people. You're preaching some loose garbage. You need to repent. Sin is not okay.
Quoting: Goddrunk
If by "loose garbage", you mean "church-rejected scriptural meat", then yes. Good eye ;)
I try to delve deeper into repentence every day, so I'm working on it. Your prayers (and donations!) are welcomed.
Can you quote me any place on this entire board in 2½ years that I've ever even implied that "sin is Okay"? I'm not saying people don't need to be saved - we all do. And we all will. But church people have made it all about them, and claim you have to say a magic incantation (sinners prayer) before you die in order to get your foot in the door.
Scores of people have died without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ. So you believe that God, who is Love (and love never fails) is letting them roast endlessly with no respite ever? That's ice cold.
People should repent and be saved. Sometimes that doesn't happen before they die. God has them covered, nonetheless.
Last Edited by MuadDib987 (nli) on 9/15/2009 at 4:45 AM Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
There's some killer stuff in Romans. Are you aware that there are people God has deliberately kept in unbelief, so that when the time of reckoning comes, he can have mercy on them?
Do you know that it's not judgment or condemnation or hellfire, but God's goodness that brings us to repentance?
It's all in there. They may not mention any of this much at the pulpit, since they're usually preoccupied with Israel and so forth.
Last Edited by MuadDib987 (nli) on 9/15/2009 at 4:50 AM Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
9teen.47™ Time is short. User ID: 771426 9/15/2009 4:56 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
PS And you can forget all about reincarnation, this story blows it out of the water.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/17/2009 at 12:11 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
PS And you can forget all about reincarnation, this story blows it out of the water.
Quoting: 9teen.47™
Hmm. I can't go with that - today's tracts are a far cry from the *original* Chick tracts Jesus himself handed out. Anyway, he primarily used those little mints with scriptures on them. Fresh breath is a little sweeter with God's eternal word, don't you think? Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
(I gotta get some lunch, but I'm sure I'll be back on later.) Please pray for me: I used to be a Good Christian™, until I got a hold of some kind of fruity "love" bullshit and decided I need to be less harsh on people.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 771442 9/15/2009 5:09 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
(I gotta get some lunch, but I'm sure I'll be back on later.)
Quoting: MuadDib987 (nli)
Take your time.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/18/2009 at 9:01 PM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
9teen.47™ Time is short. User ID: 771426 9/15/2009 5:17 AM
Re: WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE - And the lies of the Mormon church from page 11.
Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 9/16/2009 at 3:19 AM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobaccos worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
ALL are saved. That means ALL the ones who put their trust in Christ, not all people. You're preaching some loose garbage. You need to repent. Sin is not okay.
If by "loose garbage", you mean "church-rejected scriptural meat", then yes. Good eye ;)
I try to delve deeper into repentence every day, so I'm working on it. Your prayers (and donations!) are welcomed.
Can you quote me any place on this entire board in 2½ years that I've ever even implied that "sin is Okay"? I'm not saying people don't need to be saved - we all do. And we all will. But church people have made it all about them, and claim you have to say a magic incantation (sinners prayer) before you die in order to get your foot in the door.
Scores of people have died without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ. So you believe that God, who is Love (and love never fails) is letting them roast endlessly with no respite ever? That's ice cold.
People should repent and be saved. Sometimes that doesn't happen before they die. God has them covered, nonetheless.
Quoting: MuadDib987 (nli)
According to you, everyone is going to be saved? Then why does God even bother judging? Let's sin as much as we want to, we're all going to be saved anyway. I think I want to steal something today. Zero point in stopping sin.
But church people have made it all about them, and claim you have to say a magic incantation (sinners prayer) before you die in order to get your foot in the door.
Nah. You're mistaken. Jesus means way more to me than that. For the record, I don't go to church. Haven't for many years, and I probably never will. John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
There's some killer stuff in Romans. Are you aware that there are people God has deliberately kept in unbelief, so that when the time of reckoning comes, he can have mercy on them?
Do you know that it's not judgment or condemnation or hellfire, but God's goodness that brings us to repentance?
It's all in there. They may not mention any of this much at the pulpit, since they're usually preoccupied with Israel and so forth.
Quoting: MuadDib987 (nli)
You're funny. Real funny. Again, I don't go to church. I'm also very aware of the goodness of God, my friend.
Why do you think I love God so much?
I accepted Jesus having almost zero knowledge of hell. I wasn't motivated by fear and I am not now, and I came to God on my own without the push or shove of some preacher. I know God cares, I'm no idiot. My life would be a train wreck without God, and I'm forever in God's debt. John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Let's call this man a liar. God told this man about a woman, he had no prior knowledge of, who was brought to hell and heaven. Watch these, and call this man a liar, or an idiot, or delusional.
And now the woman of whom he spoke..
Last Edited by Goddrunk on 9/15/2009 at 5:54 AM John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Defending The Faith - [link to www.e-sword.net] / [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
------- Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
LOTUS FEET, I wish you would piss off and stop spamming this thread with your new age bullsh*t.
Your a friggin LIAR.
Quoting: 9teen.47™
Careful what you post.
The Lord told me we will have to give an account before Him what we post.
We represent Him on the internet.
Would Jesus speak this way?
Then why are you here then?
just to create chaos?
GET A LIFE!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771442
Lets see.Maybe because Christians always invade my posts.
So I will give you guys the same respect and invade your post.Heck Christians even knock at my door.Especially the Jahova Witnesses.I have to scare them off with my German Shepard.So don't tell me not to invade the post because yous do it all the time to other people.
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Ya know Lotus Feet,
682255,
MaudDib987 (nli)!,
Yeah and it's also a warning.
Yeah and it's also a warning.
Take your time.
Hi Goddrunk, It's nice to see you.