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I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity

 
ruotsher

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10/05/2009 06:38 PM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Scripture tells us that God created three separate "orders" of angels. Each one has a unique form, function and purpose. In the Hebrew singular their titles were Teraph, Seraph and Cherub. He Hebruew plural forms are as follows:

The Cherubim, also called archangels are angels of the highest ad most powerful order (my *n* key sticks). they literally surround the throne of God. Cherubim have six wings, four faces and are quite large. The four faces (Rev. 4:7, Ezek. 1:10) are a ma's face, a lion's face, a bull's face and an eagle's face. they are also covered with eyes.

We are told that Lucifer was referred to as a "covering cherub".

Seraphim are the middle order of angels and are sometimes known as "Burning ones" or "Healing angels". According to scripture these angels bur with fire ad like the cherubim are covered with eyes. As messengers of God they race back and forth between heaven and earth doing His will.

ooops, gotta step out......i'll be back.
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Anonymous Coward
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10/05/2009 06:51 PM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
We are told that Lucifer was referred to as a "covering cherub".

Seraphim are the middle order of angels and are sometimes known as "Burning ones" or "Healing angels". According to scripture these angels bur with fire ad like the cherubim are covered with eyes. As messengers of God they race back and forth between heaven and earth doing His will.
 Quoting: ruotsher


Thus the name luci-fer; light bearer. Originally beared the light of God, now Satan.

The wheels within a wheel are the track to and from earth which the angels travel Ez.1.
ruotsher

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10/05/2009 07:53 PM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
ok, so Seraphim are the middle order of angels and are sometimes known as "Burning ones" or "Healing angels". According to scripture these angels bur with fire ad like the cherubim are covered with eyes. As messengers of God they race back and forth between heaven and earth doing His will.

By way of illustration, the ancient Hebrew word in Revelation 8:7 (seraph) that is commonly translated as "fire" rainig down on the earth also refers to seraphim coming down from heavfen as "heavenly fire". A Hebrew word more commonly used to refer to natural fire onlhy, would be esh.

Much earlier in the Bible, with the sstory of Jacob's ladder, Genesis 28:12 says:

"He had a dream, and behold , a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; ad behold, the agels of God were ascending and descdending on it." In this passage, the original Hebrew suggests that what Jacob saw were seraphim, or messengers of God.

Third - the Teraphim, are the lowest order of angels. They are the only ones who can take on human form and maintain it for extended periods of time. (Hebrews 13)2).

In addition, teraphim are also denoted by the Hebrew word ayir, which means watcher. When they are fallen, they are also called "idols" as in the NASB translatio of Geesis 31:34.
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
wing-ed

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10/05/2009 11:32 PM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Please Explain this scripture !! Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.


It was a Jewish belief that said the angels came and stirred the water in the pool of Beththesda and the 1st one in the pool would be healed of what so ever was wrong with him.

What sort of pool was it ? Why couldn't the the man roll into the pool ! Now you use the word stirred and king James called it troubled ! Was the angel in the water or other ??


My apologies. I have gave you a quick answer. Allow me to elaborabe for you.

John 5:1-3
"After this there was a feast of the Jews and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of ipotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool and troubled the water, whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had".

The fourth verse is not in the better manuscripts. That does not mean I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures, because I do! I only say that to let you know that we should heed scholarship, fundamental scholarship which says that it was not in the better manuscripts.

What does that mean??? It simply means that a scribe put this verse in as a word of explination. I believe it is factual and it helps us to understand why this large crowd was gathered there. To me, it is not an important thing and actually helps us in our understanding of WHY.

So..........Now we know why they were there. The belief was that an angel "troubled"(means to STIR UP) the water at a certain time. The angle was not in the water, he just moved it around.

All of the people there were "lame, blind, halted". They could not move quickly. Since this man had been there for 38 years I would say that he was the worst of the lot.

But the real lesson here is that Jesus wanted this man to get his eyes off of the water and onto HIM. He had the condition of most of us today. We sit around watching the pool waiting for something to happen. Churches are full of people waiting for some great sweeping emotion to take them over.

Then there are those who put off coming to Christ waiting for a more convient time or trying to find more proof of His existance.

I hope this answers your question.
 Quoting: Major 574846

Praise The Holy Of Holy :: I find your answer spirit led !! I enjoyed it quite well ! Tomorrow I will ask a spirit led Preacher the same question and compare the answer ! Yes keep your eyes on Jesus !! Amen
Holy, holy,holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Praise the one who gives you peace beyond all understanding Yes that scripture still sounds good !
Major
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10/06/2009 10:10 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
***
Since angels are sexless this terminology easily show us that the Bible is referring to godly men (Hosea 1:10 you are sons of the living God ).



uhoh. Major, we have a disagreement... :)
Quoting: ruotsher


OK. Fire away........I"ll be your daisey!


Well, it stinks because my references are not with me at the moment........but just to kick it off,

Angels are seen several times in teh OT as taking on the form of human. And there is no reference to people as being the sons of God until the NT, once we are reborn of the spirit. All references to the sons of God in the OT are made to angels. Hosea 1;10 is future, it hasn't happened yet.


We can talk about that, no problem at all.

As for the "sons of God' only seen in the N.T....
the phrase "sons of God" appears in five verses from only two books of the Old Testament. Two verses are found in the Genesis 6 flood account. The other three verses are found in the book of Job.(2:1 & 38:4-7). From the book of Job, the context clearly indicates that "sons of God" are angelic beings, since they enter directly into God's presence1 or existed before the creation of the earth. In the New Testament "sons of God" always refer to redeemed human beings.

In Genesis, as I have described, "sons of God" refer to human beings decended from the line of Seth.

As for angels having the form of humans, when you have the ooportunity, list those Bible verses so that we can be sure what we are talking about.

Remember this...when you see the phrase, "The Angel of the Lord", that is not an angel taking human form. That is the pre-incarnant Christ. It was Christ who spoke out of the burning bush.(Ex. 3:2) It was Christ who visited Abraham. When a word or phrase is FIRST USED in the Scripture, it comes under the Law of First Mentioned, and the 1st time that "Angel of the Lord" is used, it described the Lord, speaking from a burning bush but not consumed.

That means from that point on, in the O.T. every time you see that phrase, "Angel of the Lord" it is a referance to Christ pre-incarnted.

Yes, Hosea 1:10 is future. I listed it only to show that "sons of God" was speaking of men, humans.


Yes, the angel of the Lord is Jesus preincarnate....we agree on that. The sons of God cannot refer to the line of Seth. Adam was a son of God, and Jesus was the second Adam. There are no other human sons of God in the OT aside from Adam.

The ones mentioned in Hosea are the future saved Israel. They haven't happened yet. When they do, they are not OT anymore....but either NT, or millenial age.....
 Quoting: ruotsher


Well, I see you have done some homework! I think that this is one of those things that as brothers in Christ we will have to agree to disagree on.

Yes I agree that angels did in fact come as messengers to the earth in human form at times. No question there.

Genesis 4:16
"And Cain WENT OUT FROM THE PRESENSE OF THE LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod on the est of Eden".
This begins the un-godly line of humans.

Genesis 4:26
"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son and he called his name Enos, then began men to call upon the name of the Lord."
This begins the Godly line of humans.

Now for there being "no other sons of God in the Old Test"....
What then would all of the people in the Old Test be????????

Psalms 82:1-6. It is very impirtant to understand verse 6. The word there JUDGES is the Hebrew (Elohim) and it therefore translates as:

"I said, Ye are gods and all of you CHILDREN (SONS) Of
the Most High".

So, one can not say that SONS OF GOD is never used with reference to people in the Old Test. Linguistly, that thought just will not fly.

Then consider this...."SON OF" is an idiom meaning to BEAR THE CHARACTER OF SOMEONE. That means literally that the judges in Israel were called SONS OF (Elohim) GOD because they bore His character in judging the nation of Israel.

That word ELOHIM is used in an elective sense in the Old Test, Gen. 6:4; 23:6; 30:8; Ex.15:15; Jonah 3:3.

Would they not have to be sons of God or sons of Satan. What other choice is there????

Isn't it the same fore us today. We aare either saved9Chold of God) or lost (Child of Satan).

Yes, Adam was a son of God. Created.
Wasn't Eve created out of Adam, thus making her a son of God in that she is a product of God's creative power.
Major
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10/06/2009 10:17 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
little g and big g??

Can you tell me when punctuation began, capitalization of letters etc? And can you show me that punctuation was used in the original manuscripts of the books of the bible?
 Quoting: TwinSister 683425


I would think that is something you could find out by doing a goggle search.
ruotsher

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10/06/2009 10:18 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Hey Major, did you happen to look through Dr. Heiser's links I posted?
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Major
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10/06/2009 10:19 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
whats John 10:34 mean....when Jesus says that we are all gods...and other verses like "the kingdom of heaven inside you"....is this the same as the new age belief that we are all gods.....


i'll tell you that yes it is....and notice the musicians....notice that most music is about spirituality? well the 144,000 of revelations are musicians artists...they,ve been trying to tell yuou something....check it out.


No, when Jesus was quoting Himself from Psalm 82, He at that time (Psalm 82) was talking to the gods (little g), not humans. The Kingdom inside of you is what occurs once we have accepted the gift of Salvation and the Holy Spirit enters us....we get to participate in the Kingdom, now on earth, before His Kingdom fully manifests.
As for the 144,000....that is definitely a new perspective ! tounge


You da man, man!

Correctamundo.


heehee......i am a WOman........ :)
 Quoting: ruotsher



Whoaaaaa! YOU DA WOMAN, WOMAN!!!
Major
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10/06/2009 10:39 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
As for angels having the form of humans, when you have the ooportunity, list those Bible verses so that we can be sure what we are talking about

the two angels that visited Lot: Genesis 19, that the townsmen wanted to rape



Hebrews 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

We can see that angels can appear as humans. they eat and they are entertained.

There is another one but it is not coming to mind right now.


also we see the difference outlined in DEUTERONOMY 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. 9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance. (Brenton's LXX)
 Quoting: ruotsher


I believe that you will agree with me that Deut. 32:8 speaks of the time when God destroyed the tower of Babel and scattered all of the people and confounded their speech.

Remembering now that there were two lines of people, Cains and Seth's. Godly and un-Godly. The purpose was not due to there being sons of God who were angelic.

God knew that Israel would one day inhabit the Promised Land, so He set all other nations in their places around the earth. BUT God reserved the Promised Land for Israel lest Israel think too much of themselves. Israel is represented as a man who is lost in a very bad desert and in danger of perishing....YET God finds him there.

Hebrews 13:2. We must be careful to not read too much into that verse. Notice WHAT it says, "SOME HAVE ENTERTAINED".(aorist tense). If one uses the present tense, meaning that some do entertain angels, that would provide grounds for expecting this still happens. I fear that is what has happened her to you. IF you want to be correct, consider WHAT the verse says not what we WANT it to say.
ruotsher

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10/06/2009 11:15 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
believe that you will agree with me that Deut. 32:8 speaks of the time when God destroyed the tower of Babel and scattered all of the people and confounded their speech.
Yes, correct.

Remembering now that there were two lines of people, Cains and Seth's. Godly and un-Godly. The purpose was not due to there being sons of God who were angelic.

I cannot agree with this line of theory. There were more than 2 lines of people, and Israel herself was most certainly at times, “ungodly”.



Hebrews 13:2. We must be careful to not read too much into that verse. Notice WHAT it says, "SOME HAVE ENTERTAINED".(aorist tense). If one uses the present tense, meaning that some do entertain angels, that would provide grounds for expecting this still happens. I fear that is what has happened her to you. IF you want to be correct, consider WHAT the verse says not what we WANT it to say.

2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
What would be the point of raising such a reference in the scriptures if it were not still a possibility? To be honest, I am missing your point altogether. And even if it does not happen currently, clearly it happened in the past; angels were being entertained as though they were human.
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Major
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10/06/2009 11:24 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Scripture tells us that God created three separate "orders" of angels. Each one has a unique form, function and purpose. In the Hebrew singular their titles were Teraph, Seraph and Cherub. He Hebruew plural forms are as follows:

The Cherubim, also called archangels are angels of the highest ad most powerful order (my *n* key sticks). they literally surround the throne of God. Cherubim have six wings, four faces and are quite large. The four faces (Rev. 4:7, Ezek. 1:10) are a ma's face, a lion's face, a bull's face and an eagle's face. they are also covered with eyes.

We are told that Lucifer was referred to as a "covering cherub".

Seraphim are the middle order of angels and are sometimes known as "Burning ones" or "Healing angels". According to scripture these angels bur with fire ad like the cherubim are covered with eyes. As messengers of God they race back and forth between heaven and earth doing His will.

ooops, gotta step out......i'll be back.
 Quoting: ruotsher


Yes, you are correct. God created classes of angels.
There are in fact 3 classes of angels.

1. "Archangels.(Hebrew-Teraph)
There is only ONE Archangel listed in Scripture.
Dan. 10:13; & 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7-8.
Michael is spoken of as the "Great Prince" who protects Gods people the Jews. He is considered the GENERAL of God's army.

There is another angel who is "referred" to as an archangel because of his prominence in the Scriptures, but he is not in fact called one. His name is GABERIAL.

2. Cherubim.
Ezekiel 10:1-22; Rev. 4:6-8; 2 Kings 19:15; Psalms 80:1; Genesuis 3:24.
Ezekiel 10:1-22 and Rev. 4:6-8 are similiar in that they both describe the 4 faces of the Cherubin. When you study those verses then you will see that they also represent the FOUR protraits of Christ on the earth that the Gospel writers pictured.

Matt. pictured Jesus as a LION. King of beasts and KING of the Jews.

Mark pictured Jesus as a calh (OX). An Ox is hard working and obedient and Jesus said over and over that He was doing the will of the Father.

Luke pictured Jesus as a MAN. Jesus was 100% human.

John pictured Jesus as an EAGLE. Eagles fly in the sky/heavens. Since Jesus had a heavenly origin, and that is where eagle are comfortable being.

3. Seraphim.
Isaiah 6:1-7.

From the way this post is going I feel as though I need to make a warning here. Be very careful in that you do not give the angels more credit that they are due.

Remember, we live in the age of GRACE. Jesus said that when He went to heaven He would send another one just like Himself who is in fact the Holy Spirit. Jesus told us that it would be the Holy Spirit who would guide us, teach us, walk with us and protect us.

Paul warned us in Galatians 1:8
"But though we or an ANGEL from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God who at sundry (in many portions) times and in divers (many ways) manners spake (past tense) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds".

Matthew 17:5
"While he yet spake, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold a voice out of the cloud which said: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, HEAR YE HIM".

Just think it over.
Major
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10/06/2009 11:28 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Please Explain this scripture !! Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.


It was a Jewish belief that said the angels came and stirred the water in the pool of Beththesda and the 1st one in the pool would be healed of what so ever was wrong with him.

What sort of pool was it ? Why couldn't the the man roll into the pool ! Now you use the word stirred and king James called it troubled ! Was the angel in the water or other ??


My apologies. I have gave you a quick answer. Allow me to elaborabe for you.

John 5:1-3
"After this there was a feast of the Jews and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of ipotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool and troubled the water, whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had".

The fourth verse is not in the better manuscripts. That does not mean I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures, because I do! I only say that to let you know that we should heed scholarship, fundamental scholarship which says that it was not in the better manuscripts.

What does that mean??? It simply means that a scribe put this verse in as a word of explination. I believe it is factual and it helps us to understand why this large crowd was gathered there. To me, it is not an important thing and actually helps us in our understanding of WHY.

So..........Now we know why they were there. The belief was that an angel "troubled"(means to STIR UP) the water at a certain time. The angle was not in the water, he just moved it around.

All of the people there were "lame, blind, halted". They could not move quickly. Since this man had been there for 38 years I would say that he was the worst of the lot.

But the real lesson here is that Jesus wanted this man to get his eyes off of the water and onto HIM. He had the condition of most of us today. We sit around watching the pool waiting for something to happen. Churches are full of people waiting for some great sweeping emotion to take them over.

Then there are those who put off coming to Christ waiting for a more convient time or trying to find more proof of His existance.

I hope this answers your question.

Praise The Holy Of Holy :: I find your answer spirit led !! I enjoyed it quite well ! Tomorrow I will ask a spirit led Preacher the same question and compare the answer ! Yes keep your eyes on Jesus !! Amen
 Quoting: wing-ed


God bless you my friend. I am pleased that the Lord used me to speak to you and He gets all of the glory, Praise the Lord!
Major
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10/06/2009 11:32 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Hey Major, did you happen to look through Dr. Heiser's links I posted?
 Quoting: ruotsher


Yes I did.

I have read his productions now for some time. I have found that he gets down to my simple understanding.
ruotsher

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10/06/2009 11:34 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Major, I can see your mind is made up on this, so I'll just drop it.

I would just comment I find it interesting you refer to Dr. Heiser for some things, yet don't acknowledge his writings for others......it's ok ~ YHVH will reveal to you if and when HE wants to!!

God bless, my friend!!
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Major
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10/06/2009 11:40 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
believe that you will agree with me that Deut. 32:8 speaks of the time when God destroyed the tower of Babel and scattered all of the people and confounded their speech.
Yes, correct.

Remembering now that there were two lines of people, Cains and Seth's. Godly and un-Godly. The purpose was not due to there being sons of God who were angelic.

I cannot agree with this line of theory. There were more than 2 lines of people, and Israel herself was most certainly at times, “ungodly”.



Hebrews 13:2. We must be careful to not read too much into that verse. Notice WHAT it says, "SOME HAVE ENTERTAINED".(aorist tense). If one uses the present tense, meaning that some do entertain angels, that would provide grounds for expecting this still happens. I fear that is what has happened her to you. IF you want to be correct, consider WHAT the verse says not what we WANT it to say.

2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
What would be the point of raising such a reference in the scriptures if it were not still a possibility? To be honest, I am missing your point altogether. And even if it does not happen currently, clearly it happened in the past; angels were being entertained as though they were human.
 Quoting: ruotsher


I am sorry. I was not clear enough.
I was responding to your use of it and I thought you meant that it was done today.

IT is a possibility and in fact should be done.
(Rom. 12:10; 1 Thess. 4:9; 1 Peter 1:22; 2Peter 1:7)
The incentive for showing brotherly love and hospitality is that some have ENTERTAINED ANGELS UNAWARES.

In other words, "Be sweet and kind because the one you are talking to could in fact be an angel".

Gen. 19:1-2. Abraham and Lot did not know that there guests were angels, because they in fact had a human appearance.

My fault. My apologies. I think that is my 1st one this year.(HA ha).
Major
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10/06/2009 11:50 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Major, I can see your mind is made up on this, so I'll just drop it.

I would just comment I find it interesting you refer to Dr. Heiser for some things, yet don't acknowledge his writings for others......it's ok ~ YHVH will reveal to you if and when HE wants to!!

God bless, my friend!!
 Quoting: ruotsher


We are still brothers (sisters) in Christ. This is NOT one of those things that is necessary for all to believe in. IT has nothing to do with salvation and who Jesus is.

I love you and still would like to communicate with you when the opportunity presents itself.

I was originally referred to Dr. Heiser by one of my Jewish friends because of just what we were talking about.
When I wrote a paper on Angels many years ago, the question of Sons of Gods came up. He explained the word "Elohim" in such a simple way that it confirmed what I was writing.

I read a lot of things from others but I do not agree with everything thing I read. I have read John Calvin and TULIP and agree with a lot of it but I do not agree with step #5.
Jesus died for the WHOLE world, not just a selected few.

I could go on but I know you understand.

See ya!
ruotsher

User ID: 277256
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10/06/2009 12:02 PM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
dang, I hate giving up a good discussion!! Love you too, but I definitely don't want the appearance of discord to take place for all our viewers..... :)

You're right, it is not a salvation issue and not worth causing dissension (sp?). Otherwise I would happily continue to engage in the discussion.

I wonder, have you ever read "The Shining Man, with Hurt Hands" by Ellis Skolfield? It's a very powerful book in which he deals with Multiple Personality Disorder victims.

The spirit world is not to be dismissed, nor under-rated. (certainly NOT be over-rated either!! nor messed with). This book bears witness with my spirit and 3 other spirit filled Christians have also born witness to its contents.

Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]

Last Edited by Shamar on 10/06/2009 12:04 PM
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 787645
Israel
10/06/2009 12:03 PM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
my questions are very clear








BUT WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID ABOVE

how can jesus say its alright to gather stick on the sabbath when God in Bible directly said one who does this should be killed ?

"
the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man who gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation.
34. And they put him in custody, because it was not told what should be done to him.
35. And the Lord said to Moses, The man shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."

numbers 15





Brother ,

you hide from my questions



This is from the Holy spirit

A=1, Z=26


Christian church=111= empty prayer= false gods faith



a belief in jesus=138= empty beliefs

Jesus=74=Lucifer=coveted=I covet=shame man=cross=harlot
this is not just a matter of coincidence





and you think you have "Holy Spirit"


This is Holy spirit



Lord God of Host=Torah (in Hebrew)
Secret of Isreal=Torah

see more and the math at




[link to godssecret.wordpress.com]


some ignore the facts and only want to believe what ever !



it wont just go away !



Numbers 23:19
GOD is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim.
For I am GOD, and not man—
the Holy One among you.
I will not come in wrath.

GOD clearly states that he IS NOT a man or a son of man.
Kinda debunks the whole Christ story, doesn't it?
Why would GOD clearly say he is NOT A MAN and then come down as a man (Jesus) to fulfill foretold prophecy?
Makes no sense at all!

No matter how you twist this around, one thing will always be certain The Roman Vatican-Jesus is not GOD

The Violent Side of Jesus

Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—

***That contradicts the Old Testament prophecy that the messiah was suppose to bring world peace. Regardless, what kind of sick person would turn families against each other?***

Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

***I'm guessing they don't read this verse in church very often, do they?***

Matthew 15:1-7
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

***Jesus was advocating that those who curse their mother or father be put to death? WOW! And Jesus made the stingy remark all because the pharisee asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands!?***

Matthew 5:29-30
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

***So Jesus wants us to gouge our eyes out and cut off our right hands when we sin?***

Matthew 8:21-22
21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

***A very insensitive remark I'd say!***


“Lest you corrupt yourselves, and make you an engraved image, the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,” (Deut 4:16)

“To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other beside him.” (“ :35)

“You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make any engraved image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth; “ (5:7-8)


Preacher man whom claims to have the spirit !

You asked for questions I give them to you and all you can do is insult me

you will have to better than that

Either Jesus is what you believe or a great deception

A=1, Z=26


Christian church=111= empty prayer= false gods faith



a belief in jesus=138= empty beliefs

there is a God he runs the world and these numbers are not chance occurrences

Look at the questions Mr. Preacher man and you may learn something very important

God is God.






when will the answers come ?


Here they come!!!!!

BUT you ask way to may questions at one time. Is this ADD in action.

ONE (1) question at a time. No one can or will follow all the stuff you listed. So, your first was about Jesus and pick up sticks on the Sabbath.

I assume you mean Matthew 12:1-8 which is about plucking corn to eat not sticks. Sticks were in Numbers 15 as you listed. Well, you might not like it but here is the answer:

Gathering sticks in itself is not wrong. It could be for the purpose of providing a fire for warmth of cooking. The problem is that a man was deliberately and flagrantly gathering sticks in the open on the Sabbath day when God had commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This was a direct challenge to God's authority.

(Exodus 31:14) - "Therefore you are to observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people."

Apparently, this was the first public offense against the newly revealed law of God. It was, essentially, being tested. Therefore, the severity of the punishment was to demonstrate to all of Israel the necessity of obeying the Law of God.

Thus strictly enforced discipline was absolutely necessary lest open anarchy take place.

Jesus in responding to the Pharisees legalistic traditions Jesus used the example of 1 Samuel 21:1-6. The point being that our Lord makes is that in the case of necessity the "ceremonial law" can be overruled.He used the example of David eating the SHOWBREAD in the tabernacle.
 Quoting: Major 574846



Your right I dont like the answer as it does not adress the issue or any of the questions involved. see here :

In Matt. 12:1-7, is recorded an episode relating to Jesus’s observance of the holy Sabbath. Now G-d has commanded in His Torah (Ex. 31:15), “whoever does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.” We remember the episode of the man who went out and picked up sticks on the Sabbath and that he was put to death (ref. Num. 15:32- 36). What then is Jesus’s relationship with regards to the Sabbath, to the Word of G-d and the authority of the Divinely ordained Rabbinic judges. Let us review Matt. 12:1-7.

“At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath through the grain fields and his disciples,became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and ate. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” But he said to them, “have you not read what David did . . . how he entered the house of G-d, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat . . . or have you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath, and
are innocent? But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. But if you had known what this means, I desire compassion and not sacrifice you would not have condemned the innocent.”

This section is so full of errors that it broadly broadcasts Jesus’s lack of Torah education and knowledge of G-d’s laws. To begin with, it is surprising to note that Jesus’s disciples were not learned enough to know that the picking of grain on the Sabbath was a violation of Biblical law. Jesus should have taught them better, but judging from his response to the Pharisees, it might be understood that Jesus, himself, did not know the law.

When the Pharisees noticed Jesus’s disciples violating the Sabbath, they fulfilled their Biblical obligation of admonishment, as it is written, “You shall reprove your fellow and do not bear sin because of him” (Lev. 19:17). Instead of heeding the Rabbinic authorities and correcting their ways, like Jesus said should be done (Matt. 23:3 “therefore all that they tell you do and observe”) he instead attempts to justify the actions of his disciples and to challenge the authority of the Rabbis.

Jesus makes reference to the Biblical story of David (1Sam. 21:4-6), saying how when he (David) was hungry the priests gave him and his men to eat of consecrated bread. Therefore, if it is OK for the law to be broken for David, then surely it is OK for the law to be broken for Jesus’s disciples.

This response of Jesus makes no sense in light of Jewish law. You see, the priests did not violate the law in giving the bread to David and his men. Anyone can research this law and see for yourselves that what the priests did was entirely allowable. Therefore, when Jesus declared, “they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat”, he was dead wrong in his analogy.

Jesus then attempts another analogy to justify their sinful behavior. He references the priests in the temple who “break the Sabbath, and are innocent.” One with the least knowledge of Torah law knows that temple sacrifice was commanded by G-d to be performed on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9-10). It involves no violation of the law.

It is not a violation of the Sabbath, it is the fulfillment of Sabbath law. Both of the
rationalizations that Jesus uses to justify his violation of the Torah law, instead of
justifying his position, further condemns his actions. However, the worst is yet to come. Jesus quotes the prophet Hoshea 6:6, “I desire compassion and not sacrifice.” Is this supposed to imply that G-d simply wants the Jewish people to be compassionate and that the observance of Jewish law is a sacrifice and thus not important?

Is it not written “My Sabbaths you must observe for it is a sign between Me and you for your generations” (Ex. 31:13) and “Between Me and the children of Israel it is a sign forever” (Ex. 31:16). Does something that is “forever” and “for your generations” come to an end? Did G-d, Himself not say, “whoever does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.” (Ex. 31:15)?

Instead of accepting the admonishment of the Rabbinic Sages, which we have no reason to doubt was offered in good faith, Jesus contradicts himself, and denies the authority and admonition of the Rabbis. By his own actions and words, Jesus not only violated the Sabbath, but he also refused to accept the authority of the Rabbinic judge, which he, himself says must be listened to.

Jesus violated the Sabbath and so did his disciples. Jesus displayed an appalling lack of knowledge of the Torah and acted with contempt towards the Rabbis whose job it was to admonish him, a job which Jesus, himself, acknowledges. And so, I ask you, are these the deeds of a messiah?

There are yet many episodes that conclusively show Jesus violating G-d’s command outlined in Deut. 17:11, “you shall not deviate from the word that they will tell you, right or left.”
Major
User ID: 574846
United States
10/07/2009 09:39 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
dang, I hate giving up a good discussion!! Love you too, but I definitely don't want the appearance of discord to take place for all our viewers..... :)

You're right, it is not a salvation issue and not worth causing dissension (sp?). Otherwise I would happily continue to engage in the discussion.

I wonder, have you ever read "The Shining Man, with Hurt Hands" by Ellis Skolfield? It's a very powerful book in which he deals with Multiple Personality Disorder victims.

The spirit world is not to be dismissed, nor under-rated. (certainly NOT be over-rated either!! nor messed with). This book bears witness with my spirit and 3 other spirit filled Christians have also born witness to its contents.

Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]
 Quoting: ruotsher


Do not in any way think that there is any discord between us on this.

You simply have studied and leared what the Holy Spirit taught you and I have done the same thing. There is ABSOLTELY NO DISCORD whatsoever my dear. I respect your thoughts and comments and know you do mine as well. In life, that is about all we can hope, dont you think???

Discussion and civil debate is the basis for growth and understanding. I have found over my life that when someone showed me something and a Bible verse that supported it, even though I did not accept it at the time, the Spirit of God kept throwing it up to me all the time.

You keep right on with the discussion. I have a feeling that there is someone reading all of this who is getting a blessing that two Christians can talk without anyone getting angry.

I have not read the book you suggested. I have in fact worked with several people over the years with assorted mental problems. In fact my mother who is 83 years old lives with my wife and I and she has been
bi-polar/schizophrenic for about the past 30 years. I have had to do a lot of learning about this problem and it has actually helped in our ministry.

See ya.Bless you.
ruotsher

User ID: 277256
United States
10/07/2009 10:08 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
tounge ok !

First, I highly recommend the book to you, when you get a chance. You will likely find yourself ordering the hard copy to have it on hand.......

Ok, trying to find some neutral ground here to start with. We both resepct Dr. Heiser's work. There's are neutral ground.

In his articles, he talks of the Divine Council....and he talks of them (the council) as being gods, acknowledging the problem that some have with seeing polye...poly poly something --- multiple gods. He is able to by-pass that through his studies and research and his conclusion is these gods are the created "sons" of God.

They aren't human, they are spirit beings.

do you disagree with his conclusions?
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Major
User ID: 574846
United States
10/07/2009 10:35 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
my questions are very clear








BUT WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID ABOVE

how can jesus say its alright to gather stick on the sabbath when God in Bible directly said one who does this should be killed ?

"
the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man who gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation.
34. And they put him in custody, because it was not told what should be done to him.
35. And the Lord said to Moses, The man shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."

numbers 15





Brother ,

you hide from my questions



This is from the Holy spirit

A=1, Z=26


Christian church=111= empty prayer= false gods faith



a belief in jesus=138= empty beliefs

Jesus=74=Lucifer=coveted=I covet=shame man=cross=harlot
this is not just a matter of coincidence





and you think you have "Holy Spirit"


This is Holy spirit



Lord God of Host=Torah (in Hebrew)
Secret of Isreal=Torah

see more and the math at




[link to godssecret.wordpress.com]


some ignore the facts and only want to believe what ever !



it wont just go away !



Numbers 23:19
GOD is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim.
For I am GOD, and not man—
the Holy One among you.
I will not come in wrath.

GOD clearly states that he IS NOT a man or a son of man.
Kinda debunks the whole Christ story, doesn't it?
Why would GOD clearly say he is NOT A MAN and then come down as a man (Jesus) to fulfill foretold prophecy?
Makes no sense at all!

No matter how you twist this around, one thing will always be certain The Roman Vatican-Jesus is not GOD

The Violent Side of Jesus

Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—

***That contradicts the Old Testament prophecy that the messiah was suppose to bring world peace. Regardless, what kind of sick person would turn families against each other?***

Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

***I'm guessing they don't read this verse in church very often, do they?***

Matthew 15:1-7
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

***Jesus was advocating that those who curse their mother or father be put to death? WOW! And Jesus made the stingy remark all because the pharisee asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands!?***

Matthew 5:29-30
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

***So Jesus wants us to gouge our eyes out and cut off our right hands when we sin?***

Matthew 8:21-22
21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

***A very insensitive remark I'd say!***


“Lest you corrupt yourselves, and make you an engraved image, the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,” (Deut 4:16)

“To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other beside him.” (“ :35)

“You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make any engraved image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth; “ (5:7-8)


Preacher man whom claims to have the spirit !

You asked for questions I give them to you and all you can do is insult me

you will have to better than that

Either Jesus is what you believe or a great deception

A=1, Z=26


Christian church=111= empty prayer= false gods faith



a belief in jesus=138= empty beliefs

there is a God he runs the world and these numbers are not chance occurrences

Look at the questions Mr. Preacher man and you may learn something very important

God is God.






when will the answers come ?


Here they come!!!!!

BUT you ask way to may questions at one time. Is this ADD in action.

ONE (1) question at a time. No one can or will follow all the stuff you listed. So, your first was about Jesus and pick up sticks on the Sabbath.

I assume you mean Matthew 12:1-8 which is about plucking corn to eat not sticks. Sticks were in Numbers 15 as you listed. Well, you might not like it but here is the answer:

Gathering sticks in itself is not wrong. It could be for the purpose of providing a fire for warmth of cooking. The problem is that a man was deliberately and flagrantly gathering sticks in the open on the Sabbath day when God had commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This was a direct challenge to God's authority.

(Exodus 31:14) - "Therefore you are to observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people."

Apparently, this was the first public offense against the newly revealed law of God. It was, essentially, being tested. Therefore, the severity of the punishment was to demonstrate to all of Israel the necessity of obeying the Law of God.

Thus strictly enforced discipline was absolutely necessary lest open anarchy take place.

Jesus in responding to the Pharisees legalistic traditions Jesus used the example of 1 Samuel 21:1-6. The point being that our Lord makes is that in the case of necessity the "ceremonial law" can be overruled.He used the example of David eating the SHOWBREAD in the tabernacle.



Your right I dont like the answer as it does not adress the issue or any of the questions involved. see here :

In Matt. 12:1-7, is recorded an episode relating to Jesus’s observance of the holy Sabbath. Now G-d has commanded in His Torah (Ex. 31:15), “whoever does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.” We remember the episode of the man who went out and picked up sticks on the Sabbath and that he was put to death (ref. Num. 15:32- 36). What then is Jesus’s relationship with regards to the Sabbath, to the Word of G-d and the authority of the Divinely ordained Rabbinic judges. Let us review Matt. 12:1-7.

“At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath through the grain fields and his disciples,became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and ate. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” But he said to them, “have you not read what David did . . . how he entered the house of G-d, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat . . . or have you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath, and
are innocent? But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. But if you had known what this means, I desire compassion and not sacrifice you would not have condemned the innocent.”

This section is so full of errors that it broadly broadcasts Jesus’s lack of Torah education and knowledge of G-d’s laws. To begin with, it is surprising to note that Jesus’s disciples were not learned enough to know that the picking of grain on the Sabbath was a violation of Biblical law. Jesus should have taught them better, but judging from his response to the Pharisees, it might be understood that Jesus, himself, did not know the law.

When the Pharisees noticed Jesus’s disciples violating the Sabbath, they fulfilled their Biblical obligation of admonishment, as it is written, “You shall reprove your fellow and do not bear sin because of him” (Lev. 19:17). Instead of heeding the Rabbinic authorities and correcting their ways, like Jesus said should be done (Matt. 23:3 “therefore all that they tell you do and observe”) he instead attempts to justify the actions of his disciples and to challenge the authority of the Rabbis.

Jesus makes reference to the Biblical story of David (1Sam. 21:4-6), saying how when he (David) was hungry the priests gave him and his men to eat of consecrated bread. Therefore, if it is OK for the law to be broken for David, then surely it is OK for the law to be broken for Jesus’s disciples.

This response of Jesus makes no sense in light of Jewish law. You see, the priests did not violate the law in giving the bread to David and his men. Anyone can research this law and see for yourselves that what the priests did was entirely allowable. Therefore, when Jesus declared, “they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat”, he was dead wrong in his analogy.

Jesus then attempts another analogy to justify their sinful behavior. He references the priests in the temple who “break the Sabbath, and are innocent.” One with the least knowledge of Torah law knows that temple sacrifice was commanded by G-d to be performed on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9-10). It involves no violation of the law.

It is not a violation of the Sabbath, it is the fulfillment of Sabbath law. Both of the
rationalizations that Jesus uses to justify his violation of the Torah law, instead of
justifying his position, further condemns his actions. However, the worst is yet to come. Jesus quotes the prophet Hoshea 6:6, “I desire compassion and not sacrifice.” Is this supposed to imply that G-d simply wants the Jewish people to be compassionate and that the observance of Jewish law is a sacrifice and thus not important?

Is it not written “My Sabbaths you must observe for it is a sign between Me and you for your generations” (Ex. 31:13) and “Between Me and the children of Israel it is a sign forever” (Ex. 31:16). Does something that is “forever” and “for your generations” come to an end? Did G-d, Himself not say, “whoever does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.” (Ex. 31:15)?

Instead of accepting the admonishment of the Rabbinic Sages, which we have no reason to doubt was offered in good faith, Jesus contradicts himself, and denies the authority and admonition of the Rabbis. By his own actions and words, Jesus not only violated the Sabbath, but he also refused to accept the authority of the Rabbinic judge, which he, himself says must be listened to.

Jesus violated the Sabbath and so did his disciples. Jesus displayed an appalling lack of knowledge of the Torah and acted with contempt towards the Rabbis whose job it was to admonish him, a job which Jesus, himself, acknowledges. And so, I ask you, are these the deeds of a messiah?

There are yet many episodes that conclusively show Jesus violating G-d’s command outlined in Deut. 17:11, “you shall not deviate from the word that they will tell you, right or left.”
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 787645



Hello again my friend.

You asked about many things and I gave you the answer to your concerns over Matthew 12 and Jesus speaking on the disciples picking corn on the sabbath as it related to Exodus 31:15.

I in fact gave you what I believe was the correct and Biblical answer and as I suspected, you rejected it.
Now that answer was not my opinion. That answer came from the many, professors I have studied under along with the COMPLETE Bible and the direction of the Holy Spirit.

I am looking right now on my library shelf of some of those mens contrubution to higher learning and if I may say, can I suggest that you read some of them:
Dr. Edward Dobson, Dr. Charles L. Feinburg. Professor Edward Hinson, Dr. John Walvoord. J. Vernon MaGee, Oliver B. Green. The Bible.

That being said lets think for a minute WHY you would reject the answer.I can think of only two.

1. You do not have a relationship with Jesus as your Savior.

2. You are of the Jewish faith.

I do not want to assume anything but it appears that you are maybe both. I am not calling you names nor am I degrading you in any way. Only making an observation.
If it helps you I will tell you that I am a Christian, I love the Lord Jesus and understand Him to be the Christ, the Messiah and soon coming again Judge of all people. I AM PROUD for all to know that as well you should be of what YOU CHOOSE to be. That is all I am trying to say.

Now, if that is the case, I do not believe that you will accept ANY Biblical answer to your questions. It appears to me that you are more concerned in tying to prove what you have rejected than trying to learn the truth.

Titus 3:9
"But avoid foolish disputes and genealogies and contentions and striving about the LAW, for they are unprofitable and vain."

2 Timothy 2:23
"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do cause strifes."

1 Timothy 1:4
"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies which minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith, so do".

Now you will probably take offence at what I just said, but to tell you the truth, I simply do not have the time or energy to argue about nonessentials. We are living in a world that is on fire. We have people being filled in Afganistan, Iraq, and terrortists are blowing up women and children. Cancer is killing hundreds of thousands of people yearly. There are estimated to be 22 million people infected world wide with HIV virus and the swine flu is killing people every day, and you are concerned about STICKS AND CORN BEING PICKED UP ON THE SABBETH. I have a feeling that when Jesus was asked about this, He felt the same way I do about it now. NOTHING!!! FOCUS! LIFE!

We need to FOCUS on the important things in life.

If you still want an answer to a question, LIST ONE (1) BIBLE VERSE AND YOUR QUESTION. Lets agree to get away from the rambling and going from one thought to another, OK.
Bo-Mega
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10/07/2009 11:13 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Heres one I've never heard answered to my satisfaction.

A remote village cut off from modern society, it's inhabitants peaceful people who live off the land, they are not a warring people, they care for their families.

They go their entire lives never knowing of "The Bible", they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are morally good people but according to Christianity, everyone is born a sinner and must repent/accept Jesus Christ as the savior or you go to "Hell". What happens to them when they die?

I've had people tell me that according to the Bible, certain families or peoples are cursed? Are those that are unaware of Jesus Christ exempt somehow? Am I screwed into taking the hard path to Heaven when they get the free ride?

Seriously, no offense but it sounds like a bunch of confusing BS to me, please someone enlighten me with an answer.
ruotsher

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10/07/2009 11:35 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Heres one I've never heard answered to my satisfaction.

A remote village cut off from modern society, it's inhabitants peaceful people who live off the land, they are not a warring people, they care for their families.

They go their entire lives never knowing of "The Bible", they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are morally good people but according to Christianity, everyone is born a sinner and must repent/accept Jesus Christ as the savior or you go to "Hell". What happens to them when they die?

I've had people tell me that according to the Bible, certain families or peoples are cursed? Are those that are unaware of Jesus Christ exempt somehow? Am I screwed into taking the hard path to Heaven when they get the free ride?

Seriously, no offense but it sounds like a bunch of confusing BS to me, please someone enlighten me with an answer.
 Quoting: Bo-Mega 788436


You have a 2-part question going here. I'll start with the second part first:

Romans 1:20 says this: 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This says that God places in the heart of EVERY man an instinctive, if you will, knowledge of Him.

Second, we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously. It does seem there will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard based on several other scriptures. Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law. Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law. The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

Regarding generational curses, the Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). It sounds unfair for God to punish children for the sins of their fathers. However, this is looking at it from an earthly perspective. God knows that sin is passed down from one generation to the next. When a father has a sinful lifestyle, his children are likely to have the same sinful lifestyle as well. That is why it is not unjust for God to punish sin to the third or fourth generation – because they are committing the same sins their ancestors did. They are being punished for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. The Bible specifically tells us that God does not hold children accountable for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16).
Moses addressed this issue when the Israelites were preparing to enter the promised land. He told the new generation that was preparing to enter in that they would not enter unless the dealt with their own personal sins and also the sins of their fathers. The account can be found in Leviticus 26:39-42
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. 40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.


There are four Curses in the Bible I think it would be wise to plead the blood of the lamb for removal of -- with ALL sincerity. UNLESS - you are already saved by the blood of Christ. In that case - rest assured even the curses below are forgiven.....
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Anonymous Coward
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10/07/2009 11:36 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
dang, I hate giving up a good discussion!! Love you too, but I definitely don't want the appearance of discord to take place for all our viewers..... :)

You're right, it is not a salvation issue and not worth causing dissension (sp?). Otherwise I would happily continue to engage in the discussion.

I wonder, have you ever read "The Shining Man, with Hurt Hands" by Ellis Skolfield? It's a very powerful book in which he deals with Multiple Personality Disorder victims.

The spirit world is not to be dismissed, nor under-rated. (certainly NOT be over-rated either!! nor messed with). This book bears witness with my spirit and 3 other spirit filled Christians have also born witness to its contents.

Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]
 Quoting: ruotsher





Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 788362
Australia
10/07/2009 11:38 AM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
dang, I hate giving up a good discussion!! Love you too, but I definitely don't want the appearance of discord to take place for all our viewers..... :)

You're right, it is not a salvation issue and not worth causing dissension (sp?). Otherwise I would happily continue to engage in the discussion.

I wonder, have you ever read "The Shining Man, with Hurt Hands" by Ellis Skolfield? It's a very powerful book in which he deals with Multiple Personality Disorder victims.

The spirit world is not to be dismissed, nor under-rated. (certainly NOT be over-rated either!! nor messed with). This book bears witness with my spirit and 3 other spirit filled Christians have also born witness to its contents.

Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]
 Quoting: ruotsher




Here' a free online version:

[link to www.fishhouseministries.com]




Thankyou so much for posting this, the Lord amazes me how He brings to our pathway tools to understand things we are ignorant of.

thankyou again
ruotsher

User ID: 277256
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10/07/2009 11:42 AM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
You're very welcome!! Be blessed!
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Major
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10/07/2009 12:06 PM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—

***That contradicts the Old Testament prophecy that the messiah was suppose to bring world peace. Regardless, what kind of sick person would turn families against each other?***

Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

***I'm guessing they don't read this verse in church very often, do they?***

Matthew 15:1-7
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

***Jesus was advocating that those who curse their mother or father be put to death? WOW! And Jesus made the stingy remark all because the pharisee asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands!?***

Matthew 5:29-30
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

***So Jesus wants us to gouge our eyes out and cut off our right hands when we sin?***

Matthew 8:21-22
21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

***A very insensitive remark I'd say!***


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 787645


Dear Anonymous Coward #787645................................
Since you have listed Bible verses, I will respond to them.
BUT please notice that these are not questions. They are statements with the mind already made up. But for those who are following along, I do this to show you how words and the Bible can in fact be twisted to match a preconceived notion.

Your quote:
Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—

***That contradicts the Old Testament prophecy that the messiah was suppose to bring world peace. Regardless, what kind of sick person would turn families against each other?

"CONFESS Me". Acknowlede that you belong to me. In
reality, secret disccipleship is a practical
impossibleity. Jesus constantly called for an open
confession of Himself by those who believesd in Him.
We must be willing to let others know we follow Jesus
as our Lord and Savior.
The warning is.....WHOSOEVER SHALL DENY ME, is in
the "aorist tense, referring not to one moment of
denial(such as Peter's) but to an entire life long
resistance to Christ which shall never cease.

(verse 35 is a quote from Mica 7:6.) This is exactly
what Jesus said and it is about the situation in the
world in Jesus day was just like that in Mica's day.
Children dishonored their parents and people did not
trust people. Sounds like today does it not??? This
verse reveals the condition of the world in Mica's day
to Jesus's day.


Next quote from #787645
Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

***I'm guessing they don't read this verse in church very often, do they?***

No, but it will be soon. CONTEXT!!! verse 27 speaks
to verse 14 which you left out. Here it is for you...
"(14) But his citizens hated him and sent a message
after him saying, we will not have this man to reign
over us". This is the REJECTION OF JESUS by Israel.
The first coming of Christ was as Saviour, but His
next coming He will be the JUDGE.

Next quote from #787645

Matthew 15:1-7
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

***Jesus was advocating that those who curse their mother or father be put to death? WOW! And Jesus made the stingy remark all because the pharisee asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands!?***

I am assuming you do not know this, because if you
did and still used the above statement then you would
be purposefully distorting the Bible. The Jews of the
Lords day believed that in ADDITION to the written law
of Moses, there was also an ORAL Law given to him
which passed down from him by word of mouth until it
reached the Great Synagogue of Elders which succeeded
Ezra. That council lasted till 291 B.C. and it was the
source of the many ADDITION to the law of Moses which
have been found in Judaism both ancient and modern.

With that as the background, Jesus confronts the
problem with rituals. The Jews did not wash their
hands. They only ran a trikle of water. They were not
interested in being clean, just ritualistic!! Hence
the question from the Lord, WHY DO YOU TRANSGRESS?
Jesus is showing that ADDITIONS TO THE WORD OF GOD
WILL ULTIMATLY CONTRADICT IT.

5th Commandment/Exodus 20:12......
"Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be
long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth
thee".


Quote from #787645
Matthew 5:29-30
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

***So Jesus wants us to gouge our eyes out and cut off our right hands when we sin?***

CONTEXT!! It is always about CONTEXT! Verse #27-28
"Thou shalt not commit adultry".
IT IS NOT A LITERAL STATEMENT AT ALL.
Most people will claim that they have not committed
adultry but none could say they they had not lusted
which then turns into adultry. Thus the statement of
cutting off ones hand or plucking out an eye if
definitly not literal. His point is that one must
understand that adultry comes from the heart not the
eyes or the hand. The right eye is not the source of
sin. If one plucked out his right eye to try and not
have the sin of lust would then simply be a left eyed
sinner!!!!



Quote from #787645


Matthew 8:21-22
21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

***A very insensitive remark I'd say!***

Dr. Adam Smith who has written many books and papers
on the Middle East tells about a trip he once took to
Israel. He asked ayoung man for a ride in his taxi and
the young man said to him......"I first have to bury my
father".
Dr. Smith looked and there sat the young mans father on
the door step, fit and fiddle. What the young Middle
Eastern man meant was that he could not LEAVE BECAUSE
HE HAD TO CARE FOR HIS FATHER UNTIL HE DIED. It is a
common phrase used in the Middle East my friend. What
Jesus then told the young man who had come to Him was
to let someone else take care of his father or let his
father take care of himself.
Some will say that is an "unfeeling" statement but not
me. It was to force this man to make a decision. Who
comes first in your life. If Jesus is not first in your
life then you are not a saved man my friend.

I believe that we can now see that each one of these "question/Accusation" are simply a lack of Bible teaching and understanding.

From now on.....PLEASE, lets do ONE question at a time.

This is way to mush space on this site.
wing-ed

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10/07/2009 12:16 PM

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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Please Explain this scripture !! Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.


It was a Jewish belief that said the angels came and stirred the water in the pool of Beththesda and the 1st one in the pool would be healed of what so ever was wrong with him.

What sort of pool was it ? Why couldn't the the man roll into the pool ! Now you use the word stirred and king James called it troubled ! Was the angel in the water or other ??


My apologies. I have gave you a quick answer. Allow me to elaborabe for you.

John 5:1-3
"After this there was a feast of the Jews and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of ipotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool and troubled the water, whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had".

The fourth verse is not in the better manuscripts. That does not mean I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures, because I do! I only say that to let you know that we should heed scholarship, fundamental scholarship which says that it was not in the better manuscripts.

What does that mean??? It simply means that a scribe put this verse in as a word of explination. I believe it is factual and it helps us to understand why this large crowd was gathered there. To me, it is not an important thing and actually helps us in our understanding of WHY.

So..........Now we know why they were there. The belief was that an angel "troubled"(means to STIR UP) the water at a certain time. The angle was not in the water, he just moved it around.

All of the people there were "lame, blind, halted". They could not move quickly. Since this man had been there for 38 years I would say that he was the worst of the lot.

But the real lesson here is that Jesus wanted this man to get his eyes off of the water and onto HIM. He had the condition of most of us today. We sit around watching the pool waiting for something to happen. Churches are full of people waiting for some great sweeping emotion to take them over.

Then there are those who put off coming to Christ waiting for a more convient time or trying to find more proof of His existance.

I hope this answers your question.

Praise The Holy Of Holy :: I find your answer spirit led !! I enjoyed it quite well ! Tomorrow I will ask a spirit led Preacher the same question and compare the answer ! Yes keep your eyes on Jesus !! Amen
 Quoting: wing-ed

The paster I spoke with always amazes me with his spirit let vision of scriptures ! He said the stirring was a bubbling up ! Like a boiling only not hot ! Made me think of silver water !
Holy, holy,holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Praise the one who gives you peace beyond all understanding Yes that scripture still sounds good !
Bo-Mega
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10/07/2009 12:21 PM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Ruotsher, thanks for your reply, so only those that know not the law will be judged by their hearts? One more reason for me to wish that I was born in the Amazon and not in a crooked, twisted society where I don't know what to believe.

I don't reject Christ per say, I just don't trust a doctrine that I can clearly see to be edited and mis-interpreted/mis-translated, I mean how many different versions are there of the Bible? Why is that?

It's too bad, I always thought I had a good heart.
Major
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10/07/2009 12:29 PM
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Re: I know the bible well - ask me a question that you have never understood about it or christianity
Heres one I've never heard answered to my satisfaction.

A remote village cut off from modern society, it's inhabitants peaceful people who live off the land, they are not a warring people, they care for their families.

They go their entire lives never knowing of "The Bible", they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are morally good people but according to Christianity, everyone is born a sinner and must repent/accept Jesus Christ as the savior or you go to "Hell". What happens to them when they die?

I've had people tell me that according to the Bible, certain families or peoples are cursed? Are those that are unaware of Jesus Christ exempt somehow? Am I screwed into taking the hard path to Heaven when they get the free ride?

Seriously, no offense but it sounds like a bunch of confusing BS to me, please someone enlighten me with an answer.
 Quoting: Bo-Mega 788436


Hello my friend.
You ask an excellent question that has puzzeled men for thousands of years.

I will do my best for you because you asked it such a sweet spirit. The Bible makes it very clear that there can be no salvation apart from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:20 tells us that "the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and the Godhead, so that they are without excuse".

That means that nature proves the existance of God because He is manifested in creation. But faith in the God of Creation is not enough. One must believe in the Gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (! Corth. 15:1-4).

In order for one to be saved, one must hear and believe the gospel, for faith "comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). We must remember that God is JUST, and righteous and He will judge the heathen with righteous judgment. THEREFORE the punishment of the heathen will be infinitely lighter than will be the judgment of those who have heard and then REJECTED the Gospel.

Will those people then go to heaven? NO! They will go to hell, BUT there are different degrees of punishment in hell.

Ooops, I bet that will get a lot of responce. Yes it is Biblically true.

Luke 12:47-48 is but just one referrence to prove this:
"That servant which KNEW his lords's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will shall be beaten with MANY stripes. But he that KNEW NOT and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW stripes. For unto whomever much is given, of him shall be much required, and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more".

I hope this helps you!!

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