What are your objections to Christianity?

As is "true" of younger souls, your mind works in a binary fashion of right or wrong, true or untrue, good or evil, heaven or hell. This is part and parcel the delusion you suffer of again being mesmerized by the referential universe which lends human consciousness the illusion of duality. And thus, you work in a pallet of black and white when all is gray. There is no right or wrong, up or down, heaven or hell, true or untrue. Truth is where you find it, what you make of it and how it serves you from your present vantage point in determining who you are, who you are not, where you are, where you are not, where you choose to go, and where you choose not to go. Truth is relative. It is what serves a particular consciousness at its level of consciousness. You are caught up in this quandary because of your level of consciousness and as you cannot step outside yourself, you will not be able to appreciate what I say - but you may be able to intuit from the depths of your souls which is all-knowing. You will not begin to truly grow and evolve unless and until you set aside all these exoteric belief systems with all their enchanting bells and whistles. They are designed to entice and to control lesser consciousnesses, which unfortunately, the world is dominated by. It is the youngest and most inexperienced of souls that feel compelled to stand on rooftops and to declare their "truth" to the world. They are proud of it. It is very simply and compelling to them - and - they marvel how people cannot simply adopt it as it is so obvious and "true". Christianity in particular is as far from reality as one can wander. It is the poster child for the illusion of separation in this universe - that there is a super being in the form of a man who lives apart from "his" creation and is separated from same by this moat called "sin" - and it behooves us to find a bridge across this moat in the person of "Jesus" lest we find ourselves on the outside looking in at the "kingdom of God" for all eternity - which is about the most inane bullshit ever invented and which flies in the face of all universal functioning - but - it makes young souls feel special, connected, safe and certain that they are heading for the promised land after one brief incarnation. It is impossible to impart to you why this ia all so ridiculous as you are immersed in it up to your eyeballs and only see what you choose to see - and I am not one to expect or to ask that anyone take what I say on the face of it - especially if it does not resonate with you - but I am giving you this opportunity to decide for your self if you think I have any merit when I say that all you believe is illusion. It doesn't even exist. When you cross over, you don't meet Jesus or a guy called God - you aren't judged and you don't cool (or heat) your heels for eternity. That is silly and childish storybook rhetoric.


All you ever "need" to know is two words:



LIFE CONTINUES.


All you need to know can be intuited or deduced from that.

Shalom

BTW - sorry for the typos such as: It is impossible to impart to you why this is all so ridiculous.......

Wow! Great responses guys!

I'm going to be busy for the day, so I'll try and respond late tonight. Keep giving me the objections, I'm doing my best to provide the answer that they all have. :)

As long as you hold what you "believe" to be true as sacrosanct and use it as a litmus test and prism for all subsequent "truth" or information that comes your way, you will not grow.


The problem with fixed belief systems is that they form a barrier within - a fixed reference point by which all else is judged - and if what comes to your gate either doesn't agree with nor align with that which you already hold to be true, then it is discarded as false, out of hand - which is why it is always true on this forum that the strong believers NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER sense when they are out of their depth in any such discussion as they already claim the mantle of infallibility in what they proffer as they claim it is not only the truth, but the highest, if not the only truth (at least that matters).



It is a very pedantic and provincial consciousness that cannot sense when they are in the presence of something greater than who they are or where they are. If you are taking all that I state and contrasting and comparing it with what you already hold as "true" then you will automatically discard it - which is what 99.9% of people do - as they really have no interest in reality - they just want to be right.


It takes a strong mind to dedicate its self to reality despite the allure of all these flowery belief systems.



Which are you? Who are you? And what do you really want? Reality? Or illusions that feel good?

It is completely counter to everything I've learned over the course of my life....that someone else can forgive me for something I did to a third party. Just doesn't make sense. I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. Forgiveness can only come from the offended party.

The thing is, though, that by sinning against that person you also have done wrong to God. Every sin we commit is a betrayal of God's trust, as well as a betrayal of the offended party. God created us to glorify Him and when we sin we are going against His plan for us when He made us. So, in that sense, we are accountable to God for our actions against each other, because they also involve Him. And God does not say to only confess your wrongs to Him; He also tells us to seek forgiveness from the person we wronged. In Matthew 5, Jesus states, "So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Jesus is basically saying that we need to make peace with the person we wronged before we can ask for forgiveness from Him for what we've done. So basically, the idea that we only have to be forgiven by God for our sins (which it seems like was what you were talking about) is not so. We need to confess our wrongs before the person offended and our God, who was also offended in our actions.
Hope that answers your reason, at least in part. :)

well, personally, i think religion is the opiate of the masses. if ima take an opiate, i might as well be getting fucked up. just sayin'

It's based on threats. It's hard to 'love' a God who dishes out threats and revenge.

This is an object lesson for the OP what was just stated by another:


>>>The thing is, though, that by sinning against that person you also have done wrong to God. Every sin we commit is a betrayal of God's trust, as well as a betrayal of the offended party. God created us to glorify Him and when we sin we are going against His plan for us when He made us. So, in that sense, we are accountable to God for our actions against each other, because they also involve Him. And God does not say to only confess your wrongs to Him; He also tells us to seek forgiveness from the person we wronged. In Matthew 5, Jesus states, "So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Jesus is basically saying that we need to make peace with the person we wronged before we can ask for forgiveness from Him for what we've done. So basically, the idea that we only have to be forgiven by God for our sins (which it seems like was what you were talking about) is not so. We need to confess our wrongs before the person offended and our God, who was also offended in our actions.
Hope that answers your reason, at least in part. :)<<<



Another well-versed and well-mannered person who represents his beliefs quite well, as you do. But just as unfortunately, none of this has a shred of merit. Not only is it not "true" but it doesn't exist - except in people's minds. The construct of "god" in Christian mythology doesn't exist - that there is a man-like being who lives somewhere and has human attributes and personality characteristics wherein "he" can be "offended". This is truly immature intellectually, as well as spiritually. People have a need to draft their own version of "god" in terms that make sense to them and to their very limited minds, and so they anthropomorphize the ineffable in order to get a handle on it.


The construct of sin doesn't exist in the macro. It is an invention meant to enslave.


Be well.

i think in a humanist way, sin exists in the macro. if everyone in america pours oil into the sewer system, thereby killing off the whale population, well i do believe thats some sort of sin.

or if everyone in america shops at wal-mart, thereby enslaving and keeping poor a million chinese, i think thats a sin.

and hey, im not even religious, but somehow the concept of sin exists in my mind. imagine that

"your objections to Christianity?"

watch Zeitgeist the movie on the net and realize you've been duped, big time.

i know, it is embarrassing to admit we have invested in a loser (a dumb idea), but part of growing up is manning up, cutting the losses, admitting it was part of a learning cycle, and then moving on, a bit wiser.

it was shocking and embarrassing for me to admit it, too ... but i was shown certain things that were undeniable.

religion = mind control

it makes us weak and passive ... waiting to be saved.

yes ... there is an intelligent God ....

and he/she can also be called Source energy ...

you don't need a book or another person to contact your own Source energy.

once you take THAT red pill, (and it is one of the very hardest to take .... because our traditions as families are woven in and amongst these lies, so it feels like stabbin' granny in the heart to realize that christianity and all that granny felt was right is a big, giant, mind-control LIE.

i know, it hurts.

but you are not alone.

a lot of us have had to grow up and face it.

for years, i was really confused about christmas ... now i just ride the wave of love and let the people i care about know i love them in many ways ... but i can no longer participate in the lies of christianity

is jesus real? watch Zeitgeist the movie and tell me.

many people feel they have a personal relationship with him. i can only honor their truth. the universe is infinitely responsive to our requests, and so for all those people who pray to their gods and get answers, my thought is that this is the goodness of the univese coming to them in any form that they can recognize.

many see angels. one day we will understand it all.

and the next truth is, can you look in the mirror and see light?

the whole concept of original sin is the biggest obstacle to our growth.

you are now and always have been pure light.

that TPTB tricked us all into thinking we were born of sin and that somebody needed to die for them is such a crock of lies ... but we really wanted an experience of God so we believed it.

now there are a lot of people waking up to the truth.

just because you know that religion is a lie doesn't mean that Divine Intelligence / the Creator does not exist.

Make that contact in your OWN heart ....

Listen and you will get the whole story ...

Open your mind ...

for eloquence

Indeed. Nice post. This universe and all things of it including that which created it do not function or operate according to storybook fairy tales. It IS time to grow up and let go of our mass delusions. All is ONE. There is no separation. Life is not a contest with winners and losers. All that is - is life - from the animate to the inanimate. And it is always moving, changing, and transiting in and out of form. We are no better nor any different. We continue. Nothing gets out of this universe. We continue forever. There are no rules, stopping points or final rewards / punishments. There is only consciousness. It is who we are. It is what we are. All we can do is to follow our own consciousness. When we are attuned to our consciousness we act honestly and lovingly - creating no karma. When we act precipitously and vengefully, we create karma and reap the results - which is the number one law law of the universe - cause and effect / reap what you sow.

You act as if Codex Sinaiticus were the only text of the Gospel of Luke that we have. We have many texts from different manuscript families that we can use to collaborate and find out what the entire text of the book is saying. It is ludicrous to pull out one ancient manuscript and to act as if the whole Bible depends upon it. :)

As for the other apocryphal books that you mentioned they weren't included because they didn't fit the qualifications for writings of the Bible - that is, they were written by an apostle or an associate of an apostle. Other obvious qualifications are that the book be theologically accurate and historically accurate. Most of these books don't fall into any of these categories. A brief examination of them will show that they are far from being consistent with the quality or content of the other New Testament books. Have you read these books yourself?

You are right - the Bible is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. However, you are far from showing anything that would cast doubt on its reliability. The Bible is by far the best-supported ancient book ever. Nothing else even comes close.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Very interesting. You seem to be wanting to talk this out logically and yet you have attacked the idea of logic and ultimate truth earlier. I'm confused as to how these two statements cohere.

I'm very glad that you've thought through this. However, I would encourage you to find some more reliable and well thought-out sources than a couple of TV shows. Also, scientific research is constantly changing and the most recent entertainment version of science is not very often reliable.

Also, you have to consider that no one else has ever determined what you have so easily deduced. Are you telling me that scientists haven't been able to figure out that the brain doesn't control actions? If it was so obvious from this research don't you think someone would have figured that out? That seems pretty logical to me.

Also, I still want to know how you determine what things are true. It seems that you reasoned through your thoughts here. What makes you think that you can logically think through or determine anything? If you're living in a matrix as you say, how do you know you can deduce anything?

So now I will answer your questions. It seems as if you want to have a reason to excuse yourself for the things that you do. I hope that you will face the fact that everyone chooses what they do - and therefore they are ultimately responsible for it. This is a scary thing because we fall so short of God's glory, but it is not a question that God has left unanswered.

Intent comes from what the Bible calls "the heart." This is a term that refers to the will of man which rests in the mind. Every man is responsible for every action that he commits and will be held accountable for. This doesn't mean that everyone is going to fully think through every action that he/she commits, but every action comes from the will of that person - it's not beyond his control.

Thanks for the response man!

I like some of the thoughts you have here, but the fact is that it is totally unsupported. Do you have any reason for thinking this? Did you just make all of that up?

You can say that I don't know anything because I am a "younger soul" but why should I believe that there is even such a thing? All you've done is use an ad hominem argument. Can you give me some real reasons why Christianity is wrong?

You also said "truth is relative". It's not relative to me. :) But seriously, is there any way you can determine that truth is relative? If truth is relative how can you prove anything definitively, including the fact that truth is relative?? You can't. :)

Not only that, but that statement is completely comical because no one lives that way. If I say there is a bus coming straight at you and you say that that's a relative turth, you will soon be a pancake. Then we will see if truth is relative. :)

Help me think through this if I'm missing something. :)

Thanks for the response man!

I like some of the thoughts you have here, but the fact is that it is totally unsupported. Do you have any reason for thinking this? Did you just make all of that up?

You can say that I don't know anything because I am a "younger soul" but why should I believe that there is even such a thing? All you've done is use an ad hominem argument. Can you give me some real reasons why Christianity is wrong?

You also said "truth is relative". It's not relative to me. :) But seriously, is there any way you can determine that truth is relative? If truth is relative how can you prove anything definitively, including the fact that truth is relative?? You can't. :)

Not only that, but that statement is completely comical because no one lives that way. If I say there is a bus coming straight at you and you say that that's a relative turth, you will soon be a pancake. Then we will see if truth is relative. :)

Help me think through this if I'm missing something. :)

My problem with ALL the Abrahamic religions is that they insist that their way is the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY.

Take a look at East Asia. Billions of Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Shintoists, and Confucians living more or less in religious harmony (their arguments and wars are usually secular). Each of the aforementioned faiths accepts that theirs is but one road and that in different times and situations, different paths may be equally appropriate. "Many paths, one mountain" say the Zen people.

Why can't those ugly bronze-age desert religions have the same tolerance for people who express their awe of the divine a bit differently than they happen to?

This is a serious concern and I'm glad that you brought it up. I hope the answer the Bible provides will show that this is not the case. :)

I think if you read the Bible you will see that God responds to human sin much differently than with threats. Naturally, if someone commits a crime they should be held responsible for it, right? But God took a path that could bring all men to himself and overcome even their worst sins.

Take a look at the book of Genesis. This is where the whole story begins. God creates everything good and man ruins it through sin by chapter 3. However as soon as man ruins everything, God begins to enact a plan that will redeem him. In response to this sin, God has a promise of a savior (Genesis 3:15). Later man will become worse and worse eventually forcing God to wipe out man because of the depth of his wickedness. However, even after the sins of man has made everything look hopeless, God promises that he will bring blessings through Shem. After that we see the great sin of the Tower of Babel and again God responds by promising to Abram that through him every nation will be blessed. You see that God desires to bless people even though they sin against him.

The way that he ultimately redeemed mankind and reversed the power of sin was through the death of his son. God was actually willing to send his Son to die in order to bring back the people who had turned against him.

That's not a religion built on fear - although many Christians approach it that way. When one reads the Bible he/she can see that God is able and willing to overcome everything in this life.

Thanks for pitching in!

I don't really want to watch a movie honestly. But it seems like you're pretty convinced that Christianity is bogus. So how about some reasons? I mean, you've cut it down quite a bit, but nothing in your post actually said anything about what exactly is wrong in it. It just sounds like you don't like the idea of Christianity.

So can we hear some of your reasons?

Thanks man! :)

Last Edited by brandon1234 on 09/28/2009 02:06 AM

It's too similar to another fictional story of fear, uncertainty and doubt we're taught/brainwashed into believing as children. Seems like a coordinated effort to wire our brains to be ready to accept the objectively ridiculous fairy tales um, recounted in the bible. Kind of like the steps you must ascend in mormonism or scientology (ie., brainwashing) before you're ready to hear about Xenu, Zod, your own personal planet, etc.

Christians = Good little boys and girls
Sin = naughtiness
Prayers = Xmas wish list
Kneeling = sitting on Santa's lap
Angels = Elves
Presents = Miracles
Heaven = North Pole
Judgment Day = Xmas Day
Tithe = Milk and cookies
Book of Life = Santa's Naughty & Nice List
Tree of Knowledge = Xmas tree
THE apple = Xmas bulbs
Snake = the garland around the tree
Followers = children

What's the first song taught in Sunday school? You'll notice the dominant theme in the song. "The bible tells me so." Repeat ad nauseum. Sing before and after class. Every week. Drum it into their malleable little heads so they believe anything the bible tells them is so. Blind faith.

"Jesus loves me! This I know,
For the Bible tells me so;
Little ones to Him belong,
They are weak but He is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! He who died,
Heaven's gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! loves me still,
When I'm very weak and ill;
From His shining throne on high,
Comes to watch me where I lie.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! He will stay,
Close beside me all the way;
He's prepared a home for me,
And some day His face I'll see.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so."

The story goes that Edward Bernays took the original hymn and changed the lyrics, applying principles of crowd psychology and propaganda to make the song more... compelling.

You've presented some really good thoughts. :) However, just because parents have used certain tactics to control their kids, doesn't mean you can conclude that Christianity is the same things. One big reason you can't do this is that the ultimate truth in the Christian faith is that God saves and this has nothing to do with our own works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, someone who accurately teaches the Bible is teaching how to be free from sin, not how to be enslaved to a certain system of obedience. Does that make sense?

But you're definitely right - many people teach Christianity in this moralistic way and it is a travesty.

Thanks for your input!

Thanks for the response. But there are a few logical fallacies in your argument.
1. You created a straw man out of Christianity. Most of the things you wrote that Christians believe, we don't actually believe. We didn't just create some supernatural being out of a man. According to the Bible, God made man in His likeness, sharing His characteristics and attributes. We didn't "anthropomorphize the ineffable;" the Bible clearly states that God does not have a human form, the He is Spirit. So to say that Christianity is based on a man with godlike attributes is wrong, it is based on a God that created man like Him (except in physical form) and who through creating the universe has supreme authority over all.
2. Ad Hominem. Basically all you have done is attack the character of Christians. You didn't really discuss the question at hand, you just said that Christians are stupid. What is your basis for saying that? Where is your logical reasoning for saying that?
3. There is no showing that what you said is factual. Where are you getting all your information that Christianity is not true? There's no basis for your argument against Christianity, and everything you stated regarded what Christians believe was wrong. How can I see this as a credible argument against Christianity when a lot of your facts aren't really fact?
Thanks again for the response. I really appreciate it. :)

Great to hear from you! :)

You said there are no rules, but then you said that there is a law of the universe: cause and effect. This seems contradictory.

Also where does this "law" of cause and effect come from? Is it just some pre-existent law that came from nowhere or was it created by some external rational being?

How do you define what is good and bad? Are there things that are deifnitively wrong? Who determines what is wrong and right?

Basically, what I want to know is how do you know anything that you just said? I mean, I can say a lot of sweet stuff, but it really has to be true or it doesn't matter. Right?

Thanks so much for your thoughts - we'd love to hear from you again. :)

I hope I didn't forget anyone in the responses. Let me know if you have any more thoughts guys. :)

I believe but what Christianity has become today bears little resemblance to what Christ taught!

Your right someone should have figured this out. So I have to ask myself why haven't they? Or why if they have none of us have been made aware of it? I think its probably just a matter of scientists who thought they knew all along not being able to change.

When everyone thought the world was flat no one wanted to believe it wasn't even when there was proof.

It's also kinda like the aquatic ape theory. So many of our physical traits are explained by this theory. Most are so obvious its hard to believe mainstream science has rejected it.