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2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

 
MYSTIFIED
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03/16/2005 09:24 AM
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2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
As they do other SCRIPTURE, TO THEIR ´OWN DESTRUCTION."

Uh huh!
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Will all the IGNORANT who INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, and CLAIM that it is TRUTH, please STAND UP!
aen (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
isn´t everything just an agreement
+ (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
A lot of scripture, including Revelation, can only be understood in a metaphysical context.

This is why Tim LaHaye and his ilk will all stand before Jesus and be shamed for their sin of prropagating doctrines of men, such as the "Rapture" and other false pseudo-scriptures.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
By What Authority Do You Preach?

[link to www.chnetwork.org]

By Marcus C. Grodi

One Sunday nearly eight years ago I was standing in my pulpit preparing to preach. I had done my homework, spending nearly ten hours in prayer, study and exegesis, consulting all the best books on my shelf, so that what I would proclaim to this flock to which I had been ordained to shepherd would be true. My flock trusted me for this.

And I knew that I was expected both by them and by God to proclaim truth:

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea." (Mk 9.42)

I knew that as their pastor I was eternally responsible for what I preached.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
The Catholic Church distorts them all the time along with many Protestant ones. Pagan churches disguising themselves as Christian.
Dee (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
yep
sackcloth (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
.Have you ever considered (if you are truly in Christ) edifying and building up each other instead of provoking and trying to divide with every thread you start? You may stand alone on this one
MYSTIFIED (OP)

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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
sackcloth
User ID: 8743
3/16/2005
9:39 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

Have you ever considered (if you are truly in Christ) edifying and building up each other instead of provoking and trying to divide with every thread you start? You may stand alone on this one---------------------------------

This scripture is TRUTH and MANY are ON THE ROAD TO DESTRUCTION. It is an ISSUE that ALL "BIBLE BELIEVERS" should ask themselves.


Just as YOU asked "in doubt" if one is not BAPTISED, by WATER, is one CONDEMNED.

The EARLY CHRISTIANS were BORN OF THE SPIRIT, by WATER.

This is how it ALWAYS has been done.

The "BORN AGAIN" concept is a NEW TEACHING, as you can see that scripture was twisted and distorted.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1003
3/16/2005
9:36 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

The Catholic Church distorts them all the time along with many Protestant ones. Pagan churches disguising themselves as Christian.----------

So, 1003, tell us, did Jesus just throw a book of scriptures at all of us and EXPECT each one of us TO FEND FOR OURSELVES.

Did he want EACH AND EVERYONE of US to INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, to OUR OWN DESTRUCTION.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Sackcloth, Have you said those words to Lester? I don´t think Mystified tears anyone down; she does make people think though. I like the topics she brings up.

Mystified annoys a few, like Lester, because she knows the Bible very well and is able to articulate her position.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Jesus surely didn´t want pagan religions mixed in with Christian. That is a no brainer. So ´Christian´ religions that do this can be thrown out and people must keep searching. That is why the Bible says that the truth will be like hidden treasure we must search for. It will not be easy to find or easy to follow(that is why it is called a narrow road).
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1003
3/16/2005
9:58 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

Jesus surely didn´t want pagan religions mixed in with Christian. That is a no brainer. So ´Christian´ religions that do this can be thrown out and people must keep searching. That is why the Bible says that the truth will be like hidden treasure we must search for. It will not be easy to find or easy to follow(that is why it is called a narrow road).-------------------------

And this is YOUR FINAL ANSWER, 1003? You are WRONG.

Jesus stated that HE WOULD NOT LEAVE US ORPHANS, that HE WOULD SEND US A COMFORTER, THE HOLY SPIRIT

THE HOLY SPIRIT, WOULD LEAD US "INTO ALL TRUTH".

"What do you think of ´dem APPLES?"
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
1003,

You sound AS IF Jesus wanted you to WANDER the BARREN DESERT, searching.
Lester (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Jesus explains it this way, Mysti.

In verses 1-9, HE tells The Parable of The Sower.
In verses 10-17, HE answers the Apostles question about why HE teaches in parables.
In verses 18-23, HE EXPLAINS the Parable of The Sower.

PLEASE consider very carefully what HE SAYS in verses 11 & 12:


Matthew 13
1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

***11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. ***


13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people´s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.



18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.




Only to those who manifest fully in their conviction for God unto becoming Born-Again, is it given to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, or to See the Kingdom of God.

A month ago in our Bible Homechurch, the Holy Spirit caused me to Discern Matt 13:11-12. I was cut to the bone and shocked~!

I never knew that those who did not manifest fully in their conviction would lose the "knowledge" they had acquired.



You Christian readers here, understand what that means?

Consider that Christ is our Ark, our PassOver, our Deliverer.

Consider that God locked Noah IN the Ark, 7 days before the Flood came. God locked Noah IN, so Noah could not get out!

Unless you have become Born-Again, *Jesus´ only "must" directive in all Scriptures*, you will have what you know of HIM taken away.

Such, explained the Falling Away HE Prophesied, and HIS Remark about "only the Very Elect not being deceived", both which are in Matt 24.



You people think my focus is Mysti?
Many people read these posts and never reply.

As a former catholic, I know that, most catholics understand they must Love Jesus; but having never heard that they must Know HIM Directly, they do not "fully manifest their conviction unto God", by giving their lives to God Directly.

No Believer will be condemned. They will experience the greatest fear and horror in the coming days, but ultimately will not be condemned at Judgment Day. A Blessing, great in one instance, but lesser to those who have found there is more than simply Believing.

I ask ALL The Father´s Grace be loosed, NOW, In Jesus Name upon all those Believers, so that some may find the courage to Give HIM Their Lives. Dear God, empower it In Jesus Name I ask to be done for your Glory, Amen.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
`When I use a word,´ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.´

`The question is,´ said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.´

`The question is,´ said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that´s all.´

Alice in Wonderland
(Through the Looking Glass , Chapter 6)
Dirk Gently Holistic Detective (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
The use of "scripture" in the development of a "religion" based on what Jesus taught are creations of man, and therefore as flawed as the men who created them...
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
THE HOLY SPIRIT, WOULD LEAD US "INTO ALL TRUTH".





of course but not into a truth that is pagan, political and warlike. there are many roads but only one narrow road leading off to life. not many are on it. like i said, Jesus didn´t say it would be easy to find it like hidden treasure. we must ask for help in finding that road and then help in staying on it.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
So, 1003, I take it that YOU are INFUSED with THE HOLY SPIRIT, just AS LESTER states THAT HE IS INFUSED in THE HOLY SPIRIT, just AS JOE SCHOME, says HE IS INFUSED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, just AS 38,000 DENOMINATIONS, BEING IFUSED with THE HOLY SPIRIT.........

BUT........

Here is the CLINCER......... NONE OF THEM CAN "AGREE".

So, tell me, ANYONE, 1003, HOW MANY DIFFERENT HOLY SPIRITS, ARE OUT THERE????????????????????????????????????????????????????????​???????
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
there is one holy spirit and one true religion. and again that one religion won´t be found tainted with pagan religion, politics and war. it will be modeled after the first century congregation.

and i can read what you write very clearly without you yelling or emphasizing so much. it takes away from what you are trying to get across.
impetigo (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Let´s see, there´s the Roman, Russian, Greek Orthodox, have I forgotton anyone or yeah the protestants. The road is narrow, the only way to be on the right road is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the complete trust in the infallibility of the Bible.

Most organized churches err because they doctrinally change a few things and a little bit of poison is still dead.

Again, the woman at the well story, you never responded, this was not physical water Jesus was calling her to.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1003
3/16/2005
10:57 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

there is one holy spirit and one true religion. and again that one religion won´t be found tainted with pagan religion, politics and war. it will be modeled after the first century congregation.

and i can read what you write very clearly without you yelling or emphasizing so much. it takes away from what you are trying to get across.-----------

Well, honey, it´s been 2000+ years, where is this religion?

The bible CLEARLY STATES, that THE HOLY SPIRIT will LEAD US, "INTO ALL TRUTH." (and it didn´t say it would take 2000+ years).

Are ´YOU´ the CHOSEN one, to PROCLAIM, the TRUTH, about THE MATTER.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
impetigo
User ID: 2815
3/16/2005
11:01 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

Tthe only way to be on the right road is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the complete trust in the infallibility of the Bible.-----------------------------------------

Impetigo,

Your statement is a OXYMORON, as EVERYONE is claming that the HOLY SPIRIT is guiding THEM, YET, there are NO AGREEMENTS. 38,000 denominations worth of DIS-AGREEMENTS.

And furthermore, can you show me where it STATES (in scripture) THAT THE BIBLE IS INFALLIBLE.
aen (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Alice in Wonderland

i like that

hosea 1 3
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

1 3 2
And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, [and] idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Are ´YOU´ the CHOSEN one, to PROCLAIM, the TRUTH, about THE MATTER.




are you?
impetigo (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
I don´t have my Bible handy and I use to know these verses by heart but I think the verse is in Galatians that states, "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, correction,..."
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Yes, Impetigo, I know the scripture.

The bible is PROFITABLE.

Profitable- rof·it·a·ble Audio pronunciation of "profitable" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf-t-bl)
adj. Yielding profit; advantageous or lucrative.

Now, if Jesus would HAVE wanted us to "KNOW" that the BIBLE contained "ALL TRUTH" don´t you think he would´ve ´inserted´ "it" into this scripture?

All scripture is (ALL TRUTH) inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, correction,..."

It is ADVANTAGEOUS/BENEFICIAL.

So, this verse IS LACKING.

1003, NO, but, there is SOMEONE and SOMETHING out THERE on which JESUS gave "AUTHORITY" to PROCLAIM the TRUTH. ALL TRUTH, if YOU WILL, just as THE HOLY SPIRT, said HE WOULD.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
i know something is out there but it will not contain anything pagan and will not get mixed up in politics and will not condone war. these things were not found in the first century congregation. and that is the model that we should follow and find. God will lead us all to it but it for us to accept or deny. and it will not be a popular road followed by many.
Lester (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Roman Catholic Objections to Sola Scriptura (The Bible Alone)
by: Robert Michael Zins

Every Christian should pay careful attention to the Roman Catholic challenge that the Bible alone is not the only Word of God. If there are other sources of equal weight and magnitude as the Bible, then Christian doctrine, stemming only from Bible exegesis, must be open to correction from outside the Bible. For, if there are other Words of God, Christians need to re-evaluate all that they believe in light of additional revelation. But are there other Words of God? Here is a summary of the ongoing debate with the RC religion and others who claim additional God breathed authorities.

Here is the question posed by the Roman Catholic apologist, “Where in Scripture is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura taught?” Since you trust the Bible alone, where does the Bible say, “Trust me alone?”

Here are some answers that Christians need to articulate. The Christian needs to point out that not each and every doctrine taught in Scripture is taught explicitly by book, chapter and verse. Many doctrines are taught by way of logical and necessary deduction. For instance the word ‘Trinity’ is not used in the Bible. Few would argue that the Trinity is not more implicitly taught than explicitly. The same may be said of the righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer for justification. This doctrine surfaces in light of the overwhelming implicit evidence.

Furthermore, the Christian needs to point out that even Roman Catholicism admits that the Bible is at least one part of the inspired Word of God.

The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired they are truly the Word of God. DV 24, NCC #135.

However, Roman Catholics maintain that the Bible is not the only Word of God.

Taking this admission, that the Bible is at least one part of the divinely inspired Word of God, it seems incumbent upon Rome, which does not accept the Bible as the only Word of God, to bear the burden of proving there are other sources of equal weight.

1. The Roman Catholic religion must prove that Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so closely connected that one cannot stand without the others. They must prove that Scripture and their Tradition and Magisterium must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments. Finally, Rome must prove that other sources can be summoned to give “certainty about God’s revealed truth” other than the Bible alone.

By definition, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Roman Religion consisting in :

“The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful.” Ott page 299 from De Fide

“The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.” Ott page 299 De Fide par. 8.

2. Rome has to prove their Magisterium has Divine Authority to produce Divinely inspired tradition which is equal to the Scripture. This is more than Apostolic Succession. This is a passing down of the gift of inspiration itself.

In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them “their own position of teaching authority.” This sacred Tradition, then, and the sacred Scripture of both Testaments, are like a mirror, in which the Church, during its pilgrim journey here on earth, contemplates God, from whom she receives everything...... Dei Verbum 8.

The Tradition that comes from the apostles makes progress in the Church, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

“The Catholic Church holds that in order for the meaning of Sacred Scripture to be properly understood, the Church must have recourse to its living Tradition- i.e., the infallible interpretation of the apostolic depositum fidei. And this interpretation is guaranteed by an infallible Magisterium.” Madrid Article on Sola Scriptura.

In light of such claims, the Christian needs to remind the Roman Catholic that the Apostle Paul gives fair warning in the Bible to not go beyond what is written:

1CO 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.


3. By what source or method will Rome prove Apostolic Succession, Apostolic Inspirational Succession and Apostolic Infallible Teaching Succession? There is only one Standard that we know of that can qualify its equal. The genuine article is the only sure way of establishing the validity of an identical standard. Real Gold is used to expose Fool’s Gold. Real Treasury Notes are used to expose the Counterfeit. If everyone agrees that Gold is the standard, then it must be used to test the imitation. If everyone agrees that The Federal Government issues a real twenty dollar bill then it alone is the standard to show the forgery. Since Christians and Roman Catholics alike affirm the Bible as God’s Word, the Bible should be the standard against which all other alleged revelation should be measured.

For Roman Catholic claims to be true, the Bible should teach Apostolic Succession, Inspirational Succession and Apostolic Infallible Interpretational Succession . Rome cannot simply declare the right to Inspirational Succession anymore than Joseph Smith or May Ellen White can declare their own writings on a par with Scripture. But, Rome not only maintains Inspirational Succession, it declares Infallible Interpretational Succession as well.

Does the Bible teach that the apostles passed along to others an ability to interpret infallibly or to produce revelation on a par with Scripture? Where do the apostles give a command to their successors to speak as though they were inspired and to bestow onto themselves authority as though it was on a level of the apostles?

4. Furthermore, Rome claims that the ‘traditions’ mentioned by the apostle Paul in the Bible exist outside of the Bible as a separate source of divinely inspired writing. Rome has to prove that the Traditions mentioned in Scripture [as coming from an Apostle] were not incorporated into the text of Scripture. Here are the ‘tradition’ passages as they are found in the Bible.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which were taught, whether by word or by letter from us.” 2 Thess. 2:15

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. 2TH 3:6

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 1CO 11:2

The Bible does not tell us that there is a pool of Tradition which exists separately from the Bible. Nor does the Bible give to this alleged tradition the weight of added certainty of the revelation of God that is necessary for our Salvation or Sanctification or Service. When things of substance are spoken of in the Bible, the apostles appealed to the Written Word and not to an alleged outside source of tradition.

ROM 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

ROM 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

GAL 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman."

MAT 22:29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.

LUK 24:27 And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

JOH 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;

ACT 17:2 And according to Paul´s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

JOH 20:30 Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

ROM 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

1JO 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

It must be pointed out that the Bible foresees the real possibility of weakened minds being taken captive by the traditions of men. This is strictly forbidden in the Bible.

We are not to be taken captive by the traditions of men:

MAR 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. MAR 7:13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that. "

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. COL 2:8

In essence, Rome believes that the Apostles produced the inspired written Word and inspired Oral Traditions. Rome alledges these Oral Traditions are different from the written Word. However, Rome cannot produce anything material that can be identified as the “Oral Tradition” of Paul or Peter or Luke or John. Nobody can!

Witness the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“[Tradition]... is not an inanimate thing passed hand to hand; it is not, properly speaking, an assemblage of doctrines and institutions consigned to books or other monuments.... it must be represented as a current of life and truth coming from God through Christ and through the Apostles to the last of the faithful who repeats his creed and learns his catechism.” Taken from McCarthy: The Gospel According to Rome page 291. He quotes Catholic Encyclopeida. Page 9 of Volume 15.

In light of this, Rome takes the next step and asserts Inspirational Succession to manufacture revealed truth as well as Infallible Interpretation to construct yet more revelation. Rome, in effect, gives out Revelation from God on a level equal to the Bible [witness the alleged Assumption of Mary] under the delusion that it owns this superiority. In essence, since Rome has failed miserably to produce any material evidence of a Body of Revelation known as Apostolic Tradition, so, they have made up their own. Tradition has become what Rome says it is. The real position of Rome is Sola Ecclesia. Only the Church.

There are many voices claiming to be the Voice of God. There are many Traditions.
By what shall we measure these many voices and many traditions?

Material Sufficiency and Formal Sufficiency:

Material Sufficiency means that the Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation.
Formal Sufficiency means that the Bible is clear and that no infallible teaching Magisterium is necessary to interpret it.

In reality, Rome believes in neither: Material and Formal Sufficiency are negated by the Roman Catholic contention that the Magisterium holds the same weight as Scripture and tradition. Material and Formal Sufficiency are further blocked by the RC insistence that their Magisterium alone can interpret Scripture. As an example, let us examine the Decree of Pope Pius XII on the Assumption of Mary as reported by a Roman Catholic writer. Notice how the RC Magisterium decree trumps tradition as well as Scripture.

“Pope Pius defined Mary’s assumption as a truth divinely revealed. Of the two sources of revelation, theologians commonly say the Assumption was implicit in Tradition, in spite of the practical absence of documentary evidence before A.D. 300. Yet the Pope finally declared that the doctrine was in revelation. How do we know? On the answer to this question rests a new insight into Christian Tradition that has been gaining momentum since the eighteenth century. Briefly stated, Tradition is coming to be identified more with the Church’s magisterium or teaching office and less exclusively as the source along with Scripture of the truths of salvation... “Together with the sources of revelation (Scripture and Tradition) God has given to his Church a living magisterium to elucidate and explain what is contained in the deposit of faith only obscurely, and, as it were, by implication.” The degree of obscurity, we may add, is unimportant. Given this faculty by her founder, whose Spirit of truth abides with her at all times, the Church can infallibly discern what belongs to revelation no matter how cryptic the contents may be.” John Hardon Catholic Catechism 1975 page 161.

We see quite a different story emerging from the New Testament: [67 A.D. Final Letter:]

2TI 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

2TI 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2TI 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Peter knew nothing of Apostolic Succession. [Last letter 64 A.D.]

2PE 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,

2PE 3:2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

2PE 1:13 And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 2PE 1:14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

2PE 1:15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.

Point: The Bible does not have to assert that it is the only source of Authority if no other source of equal authority can be produced. If it alone stands at the end of the day as the only Authoritative Word from God then it is Sola Scriptura by default!

Things which the Roman Catholic religion needs to show to the Christian:

1. Show us from an Authoritative source Apostolic Succession.

2. Show us from an Authoritative source Apostolic Tradition not already found in the Scripture.

3. Show us from an Authoritative source that there is such a thing as an Infallible Magisterium.

4. Show us in the Bible where the Bible declares that it shares authority with a Church Council or a Pope or a college of Cardinals.

ADDITIONAL POINTS

Point: The recognition of the Word spoken by the Apostle Paul was not governed by Paul or a Council. It was a supernatural revelation brought about by the Holy Spirit.

1TH 2:13 And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God´s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. 2TH 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Point: In Acts 20 the Apostle Paul predicts the Chaos that would ensue at his departure. Did he commend them to the Magisterium or the Bible?

ACT 20:32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Point: Patrick Madrid (RC Apologist) calls the Westminster Confession’s reliance upon the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit as our full persuasion and assurance that the Bible is the Word of God as nothing more than Mormonism. “I know it is inspired because I feel in my heart that it is inspired” is a useless bromide according to Madrid.

The obvious Christian question: What enabled mere men sitting at a table in the 4th Century. to be so sure that they could recognize exactly what books comprised the Word of God? This is the Roman Catholics understanding of how the Bible came into existence.

Point: It is not lost on Christians that what Patrick Madrid calls a “useless bromide” is precisely the manner in which Pope Pius IX describes the assembling of the books of the Bible by the Holy Spirit.
“But the Church holds these books as sacred and canonical, not because, having been put together by human industry alone, they were then approved by its authority; nor because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself.” Pius IX Den 1787

The handing down of the Books of the Bible is through illumination by the Holy Spirit and is the reason why Christians accept the Bible as the only Word of God.


The net result of forsaking Sola Scriptura:

By going outside the safety of biblical revelation the Magisterium of the Romish religion produces a religion which is offensive to Christianity. Rome has utilized her self appointed authority to fashion a religion which keeps her adherents in fear, doubt and terror as to their final destiny. By combining a little Scriptura with a little “so called tradition” and a whole lot of Sola Ecclesia, Rome has set forth her own peculiar and bizarre religion:

Fully aware that neither the term nor the concept of “Sacramental Salvation” can be shown from the Bible, Rome keeps captive her people by insisting upon an incremental, sacramental salvation totally dependent upon the Romish priesthood. This man-made system of religion transfers trust from God’s Word to trust in a priestly class.

Here is a sampling of how Rome, relying upon the un-biblical dogma of Apostolic Succession, ruins the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

1. Baptismal Regeneration and Progressive Justification. Totally opposite of the clear teaching of the Bible.

2. Confirmation. A word found nowhere in Scripture and an RC ritual invented by Rome.

3. Penance. Another word found nowhere in Scripture and RC ritual totally unsubstantiated by the Bible.

4. Transubstantiation. Another word and concept totally foreign to the Bible. The idea of literally eating a piece of bread as the transformed Body and Blood of Jesus Christ after re-presenting it as a sin forgiving sacrifice on an un-bloody Roman Altar is repugnant to the Christian.

5. Papal Infallibility. A concept unknown and utterly rejected by the early Christian community and rightly so. Papal decrees such as the Assumption of Mary have spawned their own cults and spin offs into Marian Adoration and Idolatry.

6. Purgatory. This RC invention mutilates any semblance of Christianity. The threat of Purgatory is a slap in the face of Christ’s redeeming work. It is the epitome of religious enslavement.

7. Marian Idolatry. The excessive promotion of Mary and elevation of her status far beyond all biblical and historical moorings is the commonplace declaration of modern Roman Catholicsim.

8. Even the word ‘sacrament’ is borrowed from the pagan culture of Rome and has no place in the Bible as a term or a concept.

One of the Rome’s criticisms of Sola Scriptura is that it is un-workable. They say it is un-workable because it leads to countless denominations each claiming to have the truth as it is found in the Bible. Christians should point out that all Christians are united around the belief in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide regardless of how different they may be in interpreting such things as Eschatology [study of end times] or Ecclesiology [the study of Church structure] or the Charismata [study of spiritual gifts].

But what has having an alleged Infallible Magisterium solved? Nothing. In fact, great confusion and embarrassment have ensued from the so-called teaching of the Magisterium. There seems to be no two Roman Catholics who think alike. Doctrinal diversity abounds in Rome!


There are pro-life Catholics and pro-choice Catholics. There are married priests and unmarried priests. There are Latin Only Mass type Catholics and English Only types. There are countless societies and fraternals each espousing its peculiar point of view. There are Roman Catholics who do not recognize Trent and those who do. There are those who take Vatican II as a teaching council only and those who view it as a Pastoral Conference only. Even in the question at hand we find evidence that Rome is divided over the partim/partim theory of tradition and the one stream concept of tradition. Perhaps the most telling observation is that no two Roman Catholics agree on any one definition of Tradition with a capital “T.” The list goes on and on. It is safe to say that the diversity which exists among Protestant Denominations, striving to follow the inspired Word of God as found in the Bible alone, pales into insignificance when compared with the endless divisions and immeasurable spectrum of ideas contained within American Roman Catholicism. We are staggered by the diversity of opinion and Bible interpretation among Roman Catholics if we take into account the rest of the world.

To further complicate things, there is an army of Roman Catholic theologians and apologists trying to put their own spin on the official teachings of the Roman Catholic religion. They have their work cut out for them.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1003
3/16/2005
11:27 am EST Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..

i know something is out there but it will not contain anything pagan and will not get mixed up in politics and will not condone war. these things were not found in the first century congregation. and that is the model that we should follow and find. God will lead us all to it but it for us to accept or deny. and it will not be a popular road followed by many.--------------------------

1003, forgive me, but you sound like one of the ISRAELITES, who will be WANDERING for 40 years, or more, looking for the PROMISE LAND.

Searching but never finding. Many people have VEILS on their EYES and will never SEE.
MYSTIFIED (OP)

12/08/2005 10:15 AM
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Re: 2 Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures "that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort..
Just as scripture prophecises," the ignorant understand unto their "OWN DESTRUCTION."

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