Fraud in the Bible or, It Sucks That You Don't Know Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic!

I am sure that you mean well, but the idea you posted as God being mean and vengengful in the Old Test. and "good" in the New Test. is simply a lack of Bible reading with understanding. Nothing cdould be further from the truth of Scripture.



Please do not mistake my user name as someone who is young and misinformed. World religions has been a personal interest and study for over thirty years.

I have read the bible, and had instruction from quite a few experts on the subject.

The bible was written by men, purporting to be the word of God. Not all of it is. If you want to talk about truth in the scripture, perhaps you could post some links of your own to verify your statements. This is a debate and a discussion, with ideas thrown open for examination and links to further the discussion.

Otherwise, it is just you and Jonathon stating your opinions, which is okay in an open forum, but not really adding anything to the debate.





Who said you were young and misinformed? Actually, that thought did not cross my mind at all. When I read your post I thought..."I don't agree with those statements."

I think I can safely speak for Major and myself when I say that we are not here to try and prove anything to you, or anyone else.

If people cannot explain WHY they believe what they believe and only go around trying to 'prove' things with links, etc. that makes for a very bland discussion, IMO. Especially when discussing matters of the heart and soul which are often not found in a 'link' but by personal expression.

Why do I need to link to a person's web site with their opinions in order to express my own independent thoughts? I don't need 'back up' because I am sure I understand why I am saying the things that I am here today. That is all I really need, frankly.

Actually, I believe that I knew that. But I don't believe that is the question.

O goody, we are now in the presence of a big lie, so lets get this a straight as possible. You foreknew that was going to put in print, so that's why you posted it after he wrote it?
I see hindsight is so not foretelling or prophesy.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking or not, and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.



By the way if Jesus thought like you in 30AD, there would be no New Covenant...think about it.


WRONG.

What anyone thinks or does, God keeps right on working His plan.

The New Covenant was the plan of God before the foundation of the world was laid my friend.

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?


That is a "Straw Man" argument. He did and I did.

Think about what you are saying.How could Jesus "correct" what He already had given? The implication is that by saying, "corrected it", it was broken and needed to be fixed.

If you have never read about or studied the doctrine of "Dispensationalism" I would highly reccomend it to you.
It will explain why nothing was broken, only events in time which were implimented by God.

I am sure that you mean well, but the idea you posted as God being mean and vengengful in the Old Test. and "good" in the New Test. is simply a lack of Bible reading with understanding. Nothing cdould be further from the truth of Scripture.



Please do not mistake my user name as someone who is young and misinformed. World religions has been a personal interest and study for over thirty years.

I have read the bible, and had instruction from quite a few experts on the subject.

The bible was written by men, purporting to be the word of God. Not all of it is. If you want to talk about truth in the scripture, perhaps you could post some links of your own to verify your statements. This is a debate and a discussion, with ideas thrown open for examination and links to further the discussion.

Otherwise, it is just you and Jonathon stating your opinions, which is okay in an open forum, but not really adding anything to the debate.





Who said you were young and misinformed? Actually, that thought did not cross my mind at all. When I read your post I thought..."I don't agree with those statements."

I think I can safely speak for Major and myself when I say that we are not here to try and prove anything to you, or anyone else.

If people cannot explain WHY they believe what they believe and only go around trying to 'prove' things with links, etc. that makes for a very bland discussion, IMO. Especially when discussing matters of the heart and soul which are often not found in a 'link' but by personal expression.

Why do I need to link to a person's web site with their opinions in order to express my own independent thoughts? I don't need 'back up' because I am sure I understand why I am saying the things that I am here today. That is all I really need, frankly.



Ht is exploring his theories, and is using links and cut and paste to show where his information came from. Perhaps if you wish to express your independent thoughts, you could grant him the same consideration.

And to be honest, those remarks were directed at Major, whose reply to my post sounded rather condescending to me.

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?


That is a "Straw Man" argument. He did and I did.

Think about what you are saying.How could Jesus "correct" what He already had given? The implication is that by saying, "corrected it", it was broken and needed to be fixed.

If you have never read about or studied the doctrine of "Dispensationalism" I would highly reccomend it to you.
It will explain why nothing was broken, only events in time which were implimented by God.

Let's say you or I die today. Upon our physical death we are transported to an eternal state of existence. (whatever you believe it is) Do you honestly think that this thread will matter to you? Do you think it will matter what 'this word' means in Greek, or what 'that' means in Hebrew?

The point being that in becoming obsessed with such things, this can potentially cause people to miss the obvious. It also causes people to miss completely, the bigger picture.

The questions we ask ourselves are much bigger than that aren't they? I think if not, they should be. There is a place for linguistics, history, etc. and these things are healthy to research. But, on the other hand these things can become a stumbling block and a distraction. It can become a trap.


Faith is important. Most of us on this thread have it. And it appears that most of us do not agree on what faith is.

I agree with you in that each of us is responsible for what we believe. We will all be called to answer for it. And we should be allowed to believe as we choose personally.

Myself, I am a little tired of being told I am headed for hell, or possessed by demons when searching for answers. The bible just does not fill that need.

The question being, of course, why are we here? Why did the Creator (God, YHVH, insert your own title here) put us here, and then leave. And where did the Creator go?

If we were born in his image, we are perfect already, and free to join him from birth.

These are the questions that interest me.

Let's say you or I die today. Upon our physical death we are transported to an eternal state of existence. (whatever you believe it is) Do you honestly think that this thread will matter to you? Do you think it will matter what 'this word' means in Greek, or what 'that' means in Hebrew?

The point being that in becoming obsessed with such things, this can potentially cause people to miss the obvious. It also causes people to miss completely, the bigger picture.

The questions we ask ourselves are much bigger than that aren't they? I think if not, they should be. There is a place for linguistics, history, etc. and these things are healthy to research. But, on the other hand these things can become a stumbling block and a distraction. It can become a trap.


Faith is important. Most of us on this thread have it. And it appears that most of us do not agree on what faith is.

I agree with you in that each of us is responsible for what we believe. We will all be called to answer for it. And we should be allowed to believe as we choose personally.

Myself, I am a little tired of being told I am headed for hell, or possessed by demons when searching for answers. The bible just does not fill that need.

The question being, of course, why are we here? Why did the Creator (God, YHVH, insert your own title here) put us here, and then leave. And where did the Creator go?

If we were born in his image, we are perfect already, and free to join him from birth.

These are the questions that interest me.


Those are excellent questions.

We are here to have fellowsip and worship God for we were created by Him and for Him.

He did not leave. He has always been here and always will be here.

God is OMNIPRESENT.

We were created in His image in that we have moral compasses and righteous indignation coupled with the ability of freedom to choose.

The real problem is SIN. The Devil was the 1st to sin. He was throw out of heaven and to the eart, tempting man to disobey God. Sin is our problem. It brought suffering, shame and death.

Let's say you or I die today. Upon our physical death we are transported to an eternal state of existence. (whatever you believe it is) Do you honestly think that this thread will matter to you? Do you think it will matter what 'this word' means in Greek, or what 'that' means in Hebrew?

The point being that in becoming obsessed with such things, this can potentially cause people to miss the obvious. It also causes people to miss completely, the bigger picture.

The questions we ask ourselves are much bigger than that aren't they? I think if not, they should be. There is a place for linguistics, history, etc. and these things are healthy to research. But, on the other hand these things can become a stumbling block and a distraction. It can become a trap.


Faith is important. Most of us on this thread have it. And it appears that most of us do not agree on what faith is.

I agree with you in that each of us is responsible for what we believe. We will all be called to answer for it. And we should be allowed to believe as we choose personally.

Myself, I am a little tired of being told I am headed for hell, or possessed by demons when searching for answers. The bible just does not fill that need.

The question being, of course, why are we here? Why did the Creator (God, YHVH, insert your own title here) put us here, and then leave. And where did the Creator go?

If we were born in his image, we are perfect already, and free to join him from birth.

These are the questions that interest me.


Those are excellent questions.

We are here to have fellowsip and worship God for we were created by Him and for Him.

He did not leave. He has always been here and always will be here.

God is OMNIPRESENT.

We were created in His image in that we have moral compasses and righteous indignation coupled with the ability of freedom to choose.

The real problem is SIN. The Devil was the 1st to sin. He was throw out of heaven and to the eart, tempting man to disobey God. Sin is our problem. It brought suffering, shame and death.

Before any Christian brother and sister comes at me for presenting what I have, you better get a handle on what Peter was saying in 1 Peter 3:18, 19, 20.
Christ went across the gulf in heaven, and for those who don't understand need to remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?

Christ went across the gulf and spoke to those that sinned, and did not repent and did not have the salvation yet because of the blood of Christ had not been put on the cross yet in their time. Christ brought many of those in their spiritual bodies to paradise in the 3 days that the humans on earth at that time thought He was in the tomb.

If you are still seeking those answers, and you did not find them in the Bible, and have not yet found them elsewhere....how does that translate to your every day life?

If you still don't know why we are here, why God put us here, and where God is.....how do you really know what to do with your life? Do you do what you think or guess that God would want you to do? If so, what is that exactly?

Is that too personal?


Not at all. I believe that we were put here, as a test, by the Collective Consciousness of the Universe (The One you call God). If we are worthy, and pass the test, we will be free to join with It when we die. If not, we must return until we have sufficient knowledge to pass the test.

I am on a personal quest to ensure that I have enough information to complete my spiritual journey.

What you do here on earth matters. I can not stress that enough.

Do you follow the guidelines for living? In the bible they are spelled out as the ten commandments. Those commandments are echoed in various forms throughout most of the major world religions. They don't vary a lot.

Follow your life the way Jesus tells you to. He is an acknowledged prophet by more than one world religion.

Verification from different sources is important to me. If more than one religious source cites information, then it tells a truth throughout time that can not be ignored.

And I don't believe in the Rapture. I believe in personal accountability. God is not going to come down here and Rapture people out of this mess. We created it. One of the ultimate tests by the Creator is whether we have the strength and will to do what is right, and get the job done.

One of the things Jesus preached was the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have done to yourself. Love one another, take care of one another. Don't be greedy and take things for yourself you don't need, and allow others to go hungry.

The world would be a very different place if we just did what we were told to do in the beginning.

I am working toward my own spiritual goals, and HT is an excellent source for those with unanswered questions.

Peace.

Before any Christian brother and sister comes at me for presenting what I have, you better get a handle on what Peter was saying in 1 Peter 3:18, 19, 20.
Christ went across the gulf in heaven, and for those who don't understand need to remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?

Christ went across the gulf and spoke to those that sinned, and did not repent and did not have the salvation yet because of the blood of Christ had not been put on the cross yet in their time. Christ brought many of those in their spiritual bodies to paradise in the 3 days that the humans on earth at that time thought He was in the tomb.

There is no gulf in heaven(gulfs between the 3 different heavens is a different matter, sky to space to heaven).But there was in Abraham's bosom, paradise to those who could read 2000 years ago, for there you did not suffer the torments of hell, when those captives were released and taken to be with God in heaven by God on earth at that time, what makes you think they are not coming back with our Lord? they are.

I think that I did not say anything about your statement of what you question me on..
I quote"when those captives were released and taken to be with God in heaven by God on earth at that time, what makes you think they are not coming back with our Lord? they are."

Where did I say anything about the subject of that sentence?
I didn't!
But, I do agree with you about the Lord bringing both the good and bad back. Bad back for training, and good back to help in the training.
As far as you gulf response back to me, I kind of knew that was going to happen in someones response. My question did not get answered! But that is ok..

If you go by the bible, God has killed way more people than the devil and caused way more hardship. Why would anybody want to worship such a horrendous beast?

Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?


I do not have the knowledge to answer this, can someone else please help Little Star?



Its a parable. The first shall be last in this case the rich man. And the last shall be first, in this case the beggar Lazarus.

Some people here need to tighten their screws.

Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?


I do not have the knowledge to answer this, can someone else please help Little Star?



Its a parable. The first shall be last in this case the rich man. And the last shall be first, in this case the beggar Lazarus.

Some people here need to tighten their screws.


INCORRECT.

In Parabels, proper names are never used. This then is an actual account given to us from the one who preached more on hell than heaven...JESUS.

Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?


I do not have the knowledge to answer this, can someone else please help Little Star?


Little study I did a while back.
This is not for Little Star, he already knows the answer - but for others who might not. Have removed some Bible text for brevity.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man,...
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,..
Luk 16:22 And the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died

Luk 16:23 And in hell (properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, (to sink into dejecting grief, sorrow) and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Torments-(through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water (this is the living water spoken of in Rev. 22:1), and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (to sink into dejecting grief, sorrow) in this flame.
Tormented-to grieve: - sorrow, torment, grief (as dejecting): - sorrow.
duō (to sink); to go “down”: - set.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou receivedst good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things:
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf (an impassable chasm or vacancy) fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Gulf - an obsolete primary “chao” (to “gape” or “yawn”); a “chasm” or vacancy (impassable interval): - gulf.

There was most definitely a 'gulf' separating Lazarus and the rich man but there was no 'fire' in that gulf.

If you go by the bible, God has killed way more people than the devil and caused way more hardship. Why would anybody want to worship such a horrendous beast?


WRONG.

This show your complete ignorance of Scripture and Biblical theology.

EVERY SINGLE DEATH TO EVER HAPPEN IS BECAUSE OF SATAN.
Satan brought sin into the world and all men are sinners. The wages of sin is death but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN.

You want 25 years of massive research condensed into a few paragraphs?

Simple and to the point!!

Facts
1. The Universe is full of life and has always been here!!
2. All the ancient texts confirm there was wars in the heavens both in the physical and spiritual realms!!
3. Et's both good and bad escaped or were forced to Earth in the distant past!!
4. Earth was/is caught up in this war and her surface has been destroyed many times by both natural and supernatural forces!!
5. There was an ancient atomic war between the so called gods for supremacy of Earth and the good guys lost!!
6. Human kind, the Adams and the Eves were/are a genetically engineered race to service the false gods!!
7. We are all mighty spiritual beings enslaved in fleshly shells on a material world by the bad guys forced to reincarnate life after life here on Earth with no memories of who or what we once were!!
8. It is through false religions that we are taught and blamed for or own slavery!!
___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!


25 years of research brought you to these conclusions? Is the research original, or has all that stuff you listed been available publicly, prior to your arrival to earth? Because I have seen all that stuff you listed, claimed by other people first. How is that original truth?

So, would it not be better to say instead of 'facts'.....these are the things that other people before me have said and I read and agree with them? The word 'facts' suggests that you can prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt, and I don't see that here.

Summary: love and forgivness is what make demons shudder, not blind faith.


You think faith is blind? Why is that? Because God is not in a physical body walking around on earth at this exact moment? He is very much alive, well, and present on earth in a different form presently, but, he is still right here. Always has been.

In order to even have faith in a person, you have to first believe and know for sure that they actually exist. Faith in Godly terms is trust in a person. Not trusting that this person may exist.

Now belief can at times be blind. That is a horse of a different color.


Yes it is blind faith, and we all know those of you who claim to talk WITH god or the fictional character Jesus are just plain lying!!
___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Of course you would see it as lying. I can understand that considering your take on Christ Jesus. I think you may even believe there was no Jesus? (not sure)

How could I possibly talk to someone that is not real to you? If you were to tell me that you just spoke to the Easter Bunny, I would have to say that is not possible.

So, I get why you would call me a liar.



I dont see how the belief in Jesus is incompatible with what he was saying earlier in regards to a cosmic battle, the universe as eternal, etc. And how believing in those things are any less crazy than believing in Jesus. For me it all fits like a glove, ufo = chariots, cosmic battle = fallen vs elect, etc.


Then that's what makes sense to you. It is not for me to say to you how you should believe or what you should believe. If a cosmic battle and UFO's makes sense to you, then it just does.

The only difference I can see in those beliefs you mentioned and a belief in Jesus, is that I have actually met and talked with Jesus, and I know he is real. I have never met an ET, nor have I found any research as of yet that can prove beyond any doubt as to exactly how old the universe is. I would have to take those things on blind belief if I were to embrace them.

There is nothing wrong with that though. I take certain things based on blind belief too. We all do....daily. When we go to sleep each night we do so believing we will wake up the next day, but that may not be the case. But, we still go to sleep believing it. How blind is that? LOL.

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?


That is a "Straw Man" argument. He did and I did.

Think about what you are saying.How could Jesus "correct" what He already had given? The implication is that by saying, "corrected it", it was broken and needed to be fixed.

If you have never read about or studied the doctrine of "Dispensationalism" I would highly reccomend it to you.
It will explain why nothing was broken, only events in time which were implimented by God.


Man, honestly if I wanted to discuss mainstream theology I would be at theoweb right now...

But for discussion sake, no one implied God "broke" anything...what Jesus,Isaiah,Jeremiah implied is that the whole system of worship was corrupted by the Kings or Priestly class, God did not screw up, Aaron, Moses, etc screwed it up. They misunderstood the directions, their system to not lead to heart felt repentance. God would have nothing to do with it, and was displeased with it.

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.


Also, according to mainline Trinitarians, Jesus is not the Father, and Father is not Jesus, separate but of the same substance (God the Son, God the Father), so Jesus never "gave" anything to "anyone" in the OT.

Question, where they speaking in hell to each other, or looking across to each other in heaven from one side of the gulf to the other side of the gulf?


I do not have the knowledge to answer this, can someone else please help Little Star?



Its a parable. The first shall be last in this case the rich man. And the last shall be first, in this case the beggar Lazarus.

Some people here need to tighten their screws.


INCORRECT.

In Parabels, proper names are never used. This then is an actual account given to us from the one who preached more on hell than heaven...JESUS.



yeah you already replied to that one...

If you go by the bible, God has killed way more people than the devil and caused way more hardship. Why would anybody want to worship such a horrendous beast?


WRONG.

This show your complete ignorance of Scripture and Biblical theology.

EVERY SINGLE DEATH TO EVER HAPPEN IS BECAUSE OF SATAN.
Satan brought sin into the world and all men are sinners. The wages of sin is death but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN.


Not even close to correct grasshopper, but keep on spreading those false doctrines and push humankind back to the dark ages where folks such as yourself can keep all of us sinners in fear of the afterlife!!

___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?


That is a "Straw Man" argument. He did and I did.

Think about what you are saying.How could Jesus "correct" what He already had given? The implication is that by saying, "corrected it", it was broken and needed to be fixed.

If you have never read about or studied the doctrine of "Dispensationalism" I would highly reccomend it to you.
It will explain why nothing was broken, only events in time which were implimented by God.


Man, honestly if I wanted to discuss mainstream theology I would be at theoweb right now...

But for discussion sake, no one implied God "broke" anything...what Jesus,Isaiah,Jeremiah implied is that the whole system of worship was corrupted by the Kings or Priestly class, God did not screw up, Aaron, Moses, etc screwed it up. They misunderstood the directions, their system to not lead to heart felt repentance. God would have nothing to do with it, and was displeased with it.

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.


Also, according to mainline Trinitarians, Jesus is not the Father, and Father is not Jesus, separate but of the same substance (God the Son, God the Father), so Jesus never "gave" anything to "anyone" in the OT.



OK. If that is the case, who was it that created Adam.
Who created Eve. Wasnt she a GIFT to Adam?

If that is true, who was it that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Wasn't the end result GINING of the Law?

Want to go on??

Let's say you or I die today. Upon our physical death we are transported to an eternal state of existence. (whatever you believe it is) Do you honestly think that this thread will matter to you? Do you think it will matter what 'this word' means in Greek, or what 'that' means in Hebrew?

The point being that in becoming obsessed with such things, this can potentially cause people to miss the obvious. It also causes people to miss completely, the bigger picture.

The questions we ask ourselves are much bigger than that aren't they? I think if not, they should be. There is a place for linguistics, history, etc. and these things are healthy to research. But, on the other hand these things can become a stumbling block and a distraction. It can become a trap.


Faith is important. Most of us on this thread have it. And it appears that most of us do not agree on what faith is.

I agree with you in that each of us is responsible for what we believe. We will all be called to answer for it. And we should be allowed to believe as we choose personally.

Myself, I am a little tired of being told I am headed for hell, or possessed by demons when searching for answers. The bible just does not fill that need.

The question being, of course, why are we here? Why did the Creator (God, YHVH, insert your own title here) put us here, and then leave. And where did the Creator go?

If we were born in his image, we are perfect already, and free to join him from birth.

These are the questions that interest me.


Those are excellent questions.

We are here to have fellowsip and worship God for we were created by Him and for Him.

He did not leave. He has always been here and always will be here.

God is OMNIPRESENT.

We were created in His image in that we have moral compasses and righteous indignation coupled with the ability of freedom to choose.

The real problem is SIN. The Devil was the 1st to sin. He was throw out of heaven and to the eart, tempting man to disobey God. Sin is our problem. It brought suffering, shame and death.



you can learn alot from a Rabbi....

Judaism does not have a doctrine of Original Sin. Jewish theology emphasizes the freedom humans have to make moral choices. Humans are born with conflicting impulses (See my earlier entry, Yetzer ha-Ra: A Necessary Evil), but we are not born already "in the red," sin-wise, because of actions not our own.

The longer answer is this: Christian Scriptures have a notion of inherited sin (Romans 7; John 5:19; Luke 11:13) which evolves into the dogma of “Original Sin” in the Church. This worldview of sin that is inherited from earlier generations, either from the mythic progenitors, Adam and Eve, or from the devolution of the generations prior to the Flood, is not entirely de novo to the early church. They are drawing upon and elaborating on a thread of thought found in Jewish apocalyptic literature (see Jubilees I:12-13; 2 Esdras 7).

These Apocalyptic beliefs of inherited sin, however, are not adopted by Jews outside of apocalyptic circles. The Rabbis, who formulated Jewish thought based on the Bible, certainly do not adopt this position about the state of the human soul, either formally or informally. The punishments meted out to Adam, Eve, and their children, for example, are explicitly listed in Gen. 3 and "innate sinfulness" is not one of them. Jews have seen attempts to attribute the doctrine to other passages in the Hebrew Scriptures, such as Gen. and Numbers 15:37-41, but such interpretations strike us as eisogetical, retrojecting a later doctrine into these verses by over-reading them. These passages describe an "inclination" to sin, but that's a far cry from an innate depravity that prevents us from making good moral choices. Rather, the Torah assures us that we can, of our own free will, do what is required of us - Deut. 30.

[link to ejmmm2007.blogspot.com]

If you go by the bible, God has killed way more people than the devil and caused way more hardship. Why would anybody want to worship such a horrendous beast?


WRONG.

This show your complete ignorance of Scripture and Biblical theology.

EVERY SINGLE DEATH TO EVER HAPPEN IS BECAUSE OF SATAN.
Satan brought sin into the world and all men are sinners. The wages of sin is death but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN.


Not even close to correct grasshopper, but keep on spreading those false doctrines and push humankind back to the dark ages where folks such as yourself can keep all of us sinners in fear of the afterlife!!

___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!


And this one statement from you show your complete ignorance of the Scriptures of which you deny.

Bible study 101, basic stuff tells us that evil comes from Satan. He is the originater of all pain, suffering, war, disease, pain and death. To reject that is to reject the reality of Satan himself and if that is the case, then you have more problems than I can imagine.

How can you reject that which you obviousley know nothing about. It is like saying, I do not like to eat shrimp; I have never eaten then but I know I do not like them.
Now that is strang logic indeed.

Summary: love and forgivness is what make demons shudder, not blind faith.


You think faith is blind? Why is that? Because God is not in a physical body walking around on earth at this exact moment? He is very much alive, well, and present on earth in a different form presently, but, he is still right here. Always has been.

In order to even have faith in a person, you have to first believe and know for sure that they actually exist. Faith in Godly terms is trust in a person. Not trusting that this person may exist.

Now belief can at times be blind. That is a horse of a different color.


Yes it is blind faith, and we all know those of you who claim to talk WITH god or the fictional character Jesus are just plain lying!!___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!

Okay, so the OT and the New don't 'jive' for you and you see some inconsistency. I can understand that as I myself held that view point at one time in my life. I have since changed my mind, due to closer examination.

What it comes down to is one of two choices:

1. The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

2. The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.

Now, if the Bible is in fact the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety, then every word applies to you like it or not. If it is not, then you have no worries at all when it comes to what the Bible says in parts you may not 'like' or find 'inconsistent.'

But, I could say to you: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. It only means you think it isn't true.

Likewise you could say to me: just because a person sees something in their own way does not mean that it is necessarily true.

And, you would be correct in saying so.

It does not really matter in the end to anybody but ourselves. I will not be there when you die to tell you I was right or wrong. LOL.

What is important is that God said he sent his perfect word. I did not say it, God did. So, telling me that the bible is inconsistent really is not going to prove anything at all. Nor is my telling you it is consistent going to prove anything. It's either God talking, or not and you have to decide that for yourself. So do I.


So Jeremiah was wrong? Isaiah was wrong? Paul was wrong? Jesus was wrong?

God didnt pen the Torah, scribes under kings did, you think they didnt add un-needed yokes, bull crap laws, false tales of violence which glorified the military might of tiny Israel???


Look, the truth is....that we could go on and on here quoting Scripture, arguing about this verse and that person, etc. And, at the end of all that back and forth, you know what?

I will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'

You will leave here today still believing this:

'The Bible is not the complete and perfect word of God in it's entirety.'


I said it is complete because Jesus corrected it.

If Jesus never came, would you follow Judaism?


That is a "Straw Man" argument. He did and I did.

Think about what you are saying.How could Jesus "correct" what He already had given? The implication is that by saying, "corrected it", it was broken and needed to be fixed.

If you have never read about or studied the doctrine of "Dispensationalism" I would highly reccomend it to you.
It will explain why nothing was broken, only events in time which were implimented by God.


Man, honestly if I wanted to discuss mainstream theology I would be at theoweb right now...

But for discussion sake, no one implied God "broke" anything...what Jesus,Isaiah,Jeremiah implied is that the whole system of worship was corrupted by the Kings or Priestly class, God did not screw up, Aaron, Moses, etc screwed it up. They misunderstood the directions, their system to not lead to heart felt repentance. God would have nothing to do with it, and was displeased with it.

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.


Also, according to mainline Trinitarians, Jesus is not the Father, and Father is not Jesus, separate but of the same substance (God the Son, God the Father), so Jesus never "gave" anything to "anyone" in the OT.



OK. If that is the case, who was it that created Adam.
Who created Eve. Wasnt she a GIFT to Adam?

If that is true, who was it that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Wasn't the end result GINING of the Law?

Want to go on??


Actually Lilith was created first and refused to be in subjection to Adam according the jewish legends!!

She refused to return to Eden even after adam moaned and groaned and god sent angels to retrieve her, so he just made Eve instead to shut adam up!!

Amazing all the info left out of the bible!!

___________

If it expects, or demands worship, it is not divine!!