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An Overview of Freemasonry

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2009 11:19 PM
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An Overview of Freemasonry
A quick Overview of Freemasonry for Those Who Would Like To Know A Little More About Us.

If there is one thing most people are sure they know, it's that Masons are never supposed to talk about Masonry.

Not true. Oh, there are some secrets - but there's nothing in them that would interest anyone except a Mason. Almost all of the "secrets" deal with ways of recognizing each other.
But as far as Freemasonry, what it does, what it teaches, how it's organized, where it came from, what goes on in a Lodge meeting - that's open for discussion. Given a chance, we'll probably tell you more than you really wanted to know. We're excited about the Fraternity, we get a lot out of it, and we really want to share that with others.
Then why hasn't anyone ever asked me to join? People have asked me to join Rotary, Lions, and other clubs.

It's no reflection on you. There is a rule in Masonry that a person must seek admission himself. We aren't allowed to go out and twist arms.
There is a reason for that. A person needs to come to Masonry because he really wants to, not because he's been talked into it. Masonry is a real commitment. If you are a Mason and you need help, every Mason in the world MUST help you, if he possibly can. By the same token, you must be willing to help any Mason who needs it. And then there is another reason - a person has to be ready for Masonry. Masonry isn't a civic club, although we do a lot of civic projects. It is a Fraternity. We're dedicated to the growth and development of our members as human beings. A person has to be ready to grow, has to suspect that there is something more to life, and wants to know what that is, before he is really ready to become a Mason.
What goes on in a Masonic Meeting?

There are two types of meeting agenda. The first is like the business meeting of any other organization. It takes us just a bit longer to call the meeting to order, because we use a longer opening ceremony or ritual than most civic clubs do. But, it reminds us of some of the most important lessons in Masonry.
Then, when the lodge is "open", we hear the reading of the minutes, vote to pay bills, take care of old and new business, and plan projects, just like everyone else. The other type of meeting is one in which new members are received. This is done with a beautiful ritual, centuries old, which is designed to teach some important lessons and to start the person thinking about his own nature as a spiritual being.
What's the initiation like?

The Ceremonies of Masonic Initiation are meaningful and historic. Nothing humorous or embarrassing is permitted. In fact, it is a very serious Masonic offense to allow anything to happen during an initiation which is undignified or "funny".
I've heard that Masonry is a religion. Is it? Can a man be a Mason and a Christian at the same time?

Masonry acknowledges the existence of God. No atheist can become a Mason. Prayer is an important part of the Masonic ritual. Masonic vows are taken in the name of God, but Masonry never tries to tell a person how he should think about God, or how he should worship God, or why he should believe. We offer no plan of salvation. We teach that man should live a good life, not because that alone will earn him entrance into heaven, but because anything else is destructive, both to himself and to those around him. It is good to be good. As to whether a man can be a Mason and a Christian, the best answer is that most us are. There are many Free Masons who belong to other faiths, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, but the majority in America are Christian. And we number many, many ministers of many different denominations. As Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, an active Freemason himself, once remarked: "Masonry encourages men to be good and that can never conflict with Christianity".
Are there any churches or religions whose members you won't accept as Masons?

No. A man's belief is his own business, and Masonry has no right to approve or disapprove of his belief.
What about those "Secret Vows" I hear so much about?

The exact words of the vows are secret. That's one of the ways we recognize each other. The contents of the vows are not. In less formal language than we use in the Ritual, a Mason promises: "to treat women with deference and respect, to help a Brother when he asks for and needs help, to remember that people are entitled to dignity and respect and not to treat them as if they were things, to follow the directions of the Grand Lodge in things Masonic, and if he disagrees, to use the proper channels to express that disagreement and seek resolution, to respect the traditions of the Fraternity, and to keep secret the few things that are secret".
Why don't you let women join?

We're a Fraternity, a Brotherhood. The essence of a fraternity is that it is for men, just as the essence of a sorority is that it is for women. That's the primary reason. Recent developments in psychology and sociology have discovered another reason. There is a new thing called "male bonding." That's the new technical way of saying something that has been known for thousands of years. It's important for men to have a few things they do by themselves, just as it is for women to have the same thing.
But that doesn't mean that there is no place for women in Masonry. In fact, there are several Masonic organizations for both women and men. The order of the Eastern Star, with one of the most beautiful rituals anywhere, is one. So are the White Shrine of Jerusalem, the Order of Amaranth, the Social Order of Beauseant, and several others.
Just what is a "Lodge?" What does it look like? Who runs it?

A lodge is both a meeting place for Masons and the Masons who meet there. You could actually say "The Lodge is a meeting at the Lodge." It's a Middle English word. When the great cathedrals of the Middle Ages were being built, the masons had special, temporary buildings built against the side of the cathedral in which they met, received their pay, planned the work on the cathedral and socialized after work. This building was called a lodge. The term has simply remained down through the ages.
As to the officers, the leader of the Lodge, the President is the "Worshipful Master". That title doesn't mean we worship him, although some people have thought that is what it means. The titles we use come from Middle English, about the time of Chaucer. Just as mayors in England and Canada are addressed as "Your Worship", the Master of the Lodge is called "Worshipful Master", meaning "Greatly Respected." The First Vice President is the Senior Warden. The second Vice President is the Junior Warden. We have a Secretary and a Treasurer, just like any other organization. Assisting the Master are the Senior and Junior Deacons. They carry messages and help with the ritual work. The Senior and Junior Stewards help guide the new candidates in the initiation and also traditionally set out refreshments. Finally, the Tiler sits at the door to make sure that the Lodge is not interrupted and to help visitors get into the Lodge Room.
If that is the Lodge, what is the "Grand Lodge?"

The Grand Lodge is the State Organization of Masons. The local Lodges are members of the Grand Lodge. The Grand Master is the same as the State President.
Just what do Masons do?

Charity is the most visible Masonic activity. Each year Masons give many millions of dollars to charity. Some are large projects, some are small. Among the hundreds of local projects, we sponsor large programs such as Children in Crisis, and Blindness Prevention programs, testing thousands of school children and senior citizens for vision problems. We have strong commitments to public education. Many Lodges have programs in which they recognize outstanding students. We have essay contests, awards for outstanding teachers and even programs to help teachers get supplies. The Fraternity gives hundreds of college scholarships to students each year. Nationally, throughout the United States, the Masons give an average of $1,500.000.00 (that is one and a half million) EVERY DAY to charitable causes, most of which are not Masonic. A fact never publicized and thus hardly known.
All those things are external, and they are important. But the real things the Masons do are far more difficult to describe. In essence, we try to build ourselves into better men, better fathers, better husbands and better citizens. We strive for self development and self improvement. We try to learn more about what it means to be human and what it takes to become better men.
How does a man become a Mason?

As we said earlier, no one will ever twist your arm. If you decide you want more information, we'll be happy to provide it through the Grand Lodge in your jurisdiction. If you want to join our Fraternity it works this way: "Ask any Mason for a petition (to join). Fill it out and return it to him. He'll take it to his Lodge and turn it in. A committee (of about three) will be appointed to talk with you and with people you may list. Its purpose is to ascertain that you are a man of good character and that you believe in God. Atheism and Freemasonry are not compatible. The committee will report its recommendation back to the Lodge. The Lodge will vote. If your petition is accepted, the Secretary will contact you about a date for the first of three degrees. There is some study and a bit of memory work required with which your Lodge Brothers will always help you. After the Third Degree you will be a full-fledged Master Mason and will have joined the oldest global brotherhood in the world!

[link to www.masonic-network.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2009 11:22 PM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
A quick Overview of Freemasonry
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 619367


Freemasonry = 11:11
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2009 02:09 AM
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Thanks for the intelligent post. Such posts are guaranteed to get one star. You can count on it. Logic and reason aren't welcomed by many people. Most of them are cranks of some kind. Of course, cranks sometimes post entertaining tales about conspiracy theories and secret societies. They're fun to read, but consider the source. Freemasonry likely isn't for me, but I'll defend it against unwarranted attacks.
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2009 02:15 AM
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Charity chuckle the hospitals?
Flaming Sword

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11/11/2009 02:31 AM
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Last Edited by Flaming Sword on 11/11/2009 02:32 AM
Free Store

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11/11/2009 02:36 AM
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Google is ma friend
9teen.47™

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11/11/2009 02:37 AM
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hummbird If you would like to know more about the Freemasons and the Shriner's from a biblical point of view. THE CURSE OF BAPHOMET...

[link to www.chick.com]
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Logos666
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12/24/2009 06:25 AM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry

Why I Am Not A Freemason


First off:

1.

I feel very attracted to and agree with all the reasonable principles of Freemasonry as they are publically expressed.

2.

I entirely agree in priciple with the need to marry the deeply human devotion to an ultimate good and our aspiration to increasingly experientially and performatively emulate or approximate that good (in short: the mystical path) with reason.

3.

For instance, I am a great admirer of Manly P. Hall and his works. See this thread for instance:

Thread: HAS ANYONE READ THE Secret Teachings of All Ages by manly Hall


This should make it clear that I have no prejudices against Freemasonry on religious or irrational grounds.

__________________


The tricky thing about Freemasonry is that some of their conventions immediately contradict those principles, and they also contradict the statement that people of all religions can be Freemasons, in other words that the two are logically consistent. This is not the case.

Just one example:


Masonic vows are taken in the name of God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 619367


It is my deeply reasonable conviction that no human organization can give "vows in the name of God".

On the topic of vows:

Firstly:

The nature of a vow itself, especially if the content of the vow be secret, that is cannot be scrutinized and discussed preceding the assumption of the vow, is deeply pre-rational (not mystically trans-rational), it is an appeal to archaic, not well defined magical tricks, it is an anachronism of falling back into a quasi old-testamentarian and definitely pre-age-of-enlightenment idea of what constitutes being human. It is an appeal to archaic subconscious fears which are thereby promoted and instrumentalized.

The above is true regardless of whether the content or intention with which the vow is connected be good or otherwise. The nature of vows themselves - simply on the grounds of being vows - is an inhumane regression into archaic word magic that is contrary to the spiritual destiny of man based on love, that is a commitment to a divine principle which is necessarily beyond formulation and words and hence any vows built from such words and whose primary avenue is the individual's conscience to which alone the individual (according even to Thomas von Aquin BTW) is primarily committed, something that cannot and may not be alienated from that conscience and exported to a formulation or peer group.


Secondly:

The common experience of highly intelligent beings consistently is that large groups of people (say with more than 2 or 3 people) increases the stupidity involved because the primitive parts of each person involved tend to reinforce each other and tend to soon dominate the rational and noble aspirations of the inividuals in the group. It is very hard to imagine, to put it mildly, why this should be different among Freemasons unless they were all completely enlightened.

Hence, any authoritarian bent ("Grand Master" etc.) and hierarchical structure within Freemasonry would imply an element of submission of the individual under the common, dominating stupidity of the group consciousness of his ever more "elite" superiors - superiors which tend to be rich, upper class, with all the attending stupidities of a lack of empathy and understanding for the downtrodden, as well as the usual "patriarchal" idiocies of not seeing how patriarchy itself is slavery and a continuation of the very sexual capitalism which is destroying the planet

(ever since private property - roughly 7000 years, probably the same time groups like Freemasonry started - unattractive men could buy women's favors and for that reason engage in economic competition reckless to the exact degree they wanted to have sex when they were young - with women who in turn were really _not_ so horny for them unless they pay or have status; that is, patriarchy is institutionalized prostitution).

That is particularly true if the higher degrees under which he is taking the vow are not under scrutiny of the individual taking the vow.

All in all: it seems logical that a vow cannot help but support the intention of rich people to improve themselves and the world, but under the condition of their common blindfolders that they will not change the very reason that makes themselves and the world so bad - their intention to procreate in spite of their comparative unattractiveness other than through money and status.

If there is anyone under whom I would take a vow, the first condition would hence have to be that he has largely given up wealth, status and sex when he was still young - or otherwise certainly primitivity ultimately dictates the game in spite of all professed reasonable principles.



Thirdly:

The vows are also a reason a serious christian cannot be Freemason since (likely for the reasons above) has clearly forbidden his followers the use of vows and oaths:

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]

Jesus clearly called that evil, regardless of whether the vow be good neutral or evil, simply because it is a vow.

And that is that.


Fourth:

The above isn't really so difficult to see, and I would say anyone who has a bit of basic training if only in informal logic would immediately see those inconsistencies. The question then arises: how stupid must people in Freemasonry be not to immediately recognize the inconsistencies ? Why do they continue to make claims to reasonability and the compatibility of a vow system with Christianity ?

Therefore, either Freemasonry as a group phenomenon is honest, then it is an anachronistic men's club which is ruled by severe stupidity which unwittingly promotes the destruction of the planet by promoting the cause of detruction: patriarchy, that is men wanting wealth or status so that they can have sex.

Otherwise it is inherently dishonest.

In both cases, they are not what they profess to be, a brotherhood of reasonable people that has the capacity to further the spiritual and moral improvement of the individuals involved as well as the world as a whole. At the very best it is an exercise in hybris.




There are reasons why Jesus and Jiddu Krishnamurti rejected all such clubs.
Logos666
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12/24/2009 06:25 AM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
Merry Christmas !
Logos666
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12/26/2009 06:38 AM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
A reaction from here:


Thread: Why I am not Freemason: internal constradictions and vows

Masonry is not for everyone. If you feel like it isn't for you then don't join. It's really that simple, no need for a post? Idol1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 849503


Thanks for this answer which brilliantly demonstrates an aspect of what I wanted to express.

As any half-educated person will see who still has his own wits together and can think freely and free of group think, that is, humanely:

Your argument could equally be given in defense of Nazi-dom or any other atrocities.

If an argument against something cannot reasonably be brought on the grounds that you should not say anything critical against something to which you do not belong, well that sounds like a recipe for faschism to me.

Are all Freemasons as stupid as your argument ?

I hope not, but your argument is a case ion point for what I am trying to say. Belonging and the feeling of loyalty supersede the very principles which Masonry supposedly stands for, but doesn't.
Logos666
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Your argument could equally be given in defense of Nazi-dom or any other atrocities.
 Quoting: Logos666 849733


Just making sure against inane replies:

The parallel of such an argument in no way implies a comparison between Freemasonry and Nazi-dom. The example was only used to make obvious the lack of validity of the argument and how stupid it is to argue this way.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2009 08:42 PM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
A reaction from here:


Thread: Why I am not Freemason: internal constradictions and vows


Masonry is not for everyone. If you feel like it isn't for you then don't join. It's really that simple, no need for a post? Idol1


Thanks for this answer which brilliantly demonstrates an aspect of what I wanted to express.

As any half-educated person will see who still has his own wits together and can think freely and free of group think, that is, humanely:

Your argument could equally be given in defense of Nazi-dom or any other atrocities.

If an argument against something cannot reasonably be brought on the grounds that you should not say anything critical against something to which you do not belong, well that sounds like a recipe for faschism to me.

Are all Freemasons as stupid as your argument ?

I hope not, but your argument is a case ion point for what I am trying to say. Belonging and the feeling of loyalty supersede the very principles which Masonry supposedly stands for, but doesn't.


Lol. I think u misunderstood my post. My point is that Masonry is an organization which does not solicit for membership. One must come of their own free will and accord. If you do not agree with Masonry or feel it is not for you, then do not join. Masonry does not make us who or what we are, we make Masonry what it is
 Quoting: Logos666 849733

Idol1
Logos666
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12/28/2009 04:23 AM
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You've got to learn not to include your reaction in the quote. Kind of sloppy and a sign of a lack of respect, leaving your work on your readers' shoulders. Are you really a Freemason ? I am beginning to doubt this since - as deluded as I think they are according to my first post - at least I thought they outwardly have a sense of noble conduct.


Masonry is not for everyone. If you feel like it isn't for you then don't join. It's really that simple, no need for a post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 850945


This is what I reacted to.

Lol.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 850945


[link to en.wikipedia.org]


I think u misunderstood my post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 850945


As we shall see, that is the necessary result of this inappropriate comment of yours.


My point is that Masonry is an organization which does not solicit for membership. One must come of their own free will and accord.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 850945


Since no one ever disputed that, it is the second logical fallacy within 3 or 4 lines:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

If you do not agree with Masonry or feel it is not for you, then do not join.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 850945


This clearly suggests that in some way I need to be told this and that, in connection with your previous ignoratio elenchi fallacy, I would have suggested that I would feel pressed and a need to justify why I am not joining in front of some sort of peer pressure:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Since the public pronouncement of such reasons for not joining can obviously have quite different reasons than such felt pressure (and my first post on this thread - which you should have read before your comment - should have made this quite clear), this happens to be the third logical fallacy within 3 or 4 lines of yours!

You can try them all on me:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

but as you can see, it doesn't work.


Logical fallacies are characteristic of a lack of character, education, empathy, trustworthiness and a sign of callousness and a generally barbaric state of development of one's conscience

and since this is certainly a very common state of affairs with humans, it should not be characteristic of a brotherhood which supposedly is aiming precisely at removing this kind of primitivity and developing a reasonable and noble character.


It may be that either you are too stupid to recognize your own fallacies or, worse, willing to commit them against better knowledge. In both cases: what are we to make of the Freemasons if someone like you can be a member (assuming that you are) ?


So thanks for further demonstrating an aspect of my point in my first post.
Logos666
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
and since this is certainly a very common state of affairs with humans
 Quoting: Logos666 851128


should be although, of course.
Logos666
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FYI

Thread: HAS ANYONE READ THE Secret Teachings of All Ages by manly Hall (Page 4)
BeukendaalMason
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01/05/2010 03:04 PM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
Although you attempt to profess that you "have no prejudices against Freemasonry on religious or irrational grounds." You give several reasons based solely on religious and irrational grounds. I shall demonstrate.

(I avoided direct quotations as they started to take up far too much room)


"Firstly"

The vows are known to those who take the vows and they are free to not take the vow and walk away at any time. You make the logical fallicy that since YOU do not know the vows that those who take the vows do not.

How is a vow as "an inhumane regression into archaic word magic that is contrary to the spiritual destiny of man based on love" when in a marriage you take vows to the one you love? A vow is the ultimate sign of love, not the opposite. A vow is the promise to uphold what is contained in the vow through your words and actions.

"Secondly"

And yet "highly intellegent people" commonly form organizations of large numbers of people: colleges, research organizations, internet discussion groups, even society itself is a large collection of people. It is only when people allow themselves to be rules by the most base ideas and feelings do we see problems (which can happen even by lone individuals with no organizations).

Freemasonry is neither "authoritorian bent" nor does it have "elite superiors". Masonry has elected officials whose duty it is to work for the benefit of their members and most of those who have become those leaders have not been "elite superiors". Anyone who applies themself can find that they can achieve the highest positions in Freemasonry, from teachers, bus drivers, computer programmers, police officers, even Theodore Roosevelt's own gardener held the title of Master of the Lodge the President was a member of. The rights of the individual member is held as the highest importance and all members are equal. A position like Master of a Lodge or Grand Master of a Grand Lodge are only temporary (1 to 2 years).

No one in Freemasonry is beyond scrutiny...unless you believe in all of the stupid conspiracy theories about "hidden groups" or believe those who are outside of the organization should be able to hold sway due to their informed and personal piques and quarrels.

"Thirdly"

You state near the beginning of your post that you "have no prejudices against Freemasonry on religious or irrational grounds" but state here a position based solely on religious grounds. You also fail to look into all of the translations of your one objection and all of the other passages in the Bible which contradict your assumption.

The one passage you use for your objection has a different translation: Matthew 5:33 "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shall nor forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:". The whole lesson to be learned from the passage is not to take oaths, but only to take oaths before the Lord alone and that your oaths must be truthful "Let your communication be Yea, yea; Nea, nea". You also look past numerous other passages in the Bible that also promote that one make your oath/vows before God (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, ect).

"Fourth"

The only inconsistencies above are in your own logic, knowledge, and assumptions. People who join Freemasonry see the consistencies, the truth there in, it is only those who attempt to rail at Freemasonry, who are uninformed about it, and make many false assumptions who do not see them.

Freemasonry is a group of honest men (which sadly does seem to be a phenomenon these days), but unlike what you seem to hope it is, it is not "ruled by severe stupidity which unwittingly promotes the destruction of the planet by promoting the cause of detruction: patriarchy, that is men wanting wealth or status so that they can have sex." Freemasonry has promoted the advancement of intellegent thought, great principles, human rights, charity, religious toleration, and protection of the planet for the benefit of all.

I like how at the end you seem to attempt to claim to know how Jesus and Jiddu Krishnamurti might have felt based upon your own personally prejudices, false claims, and inconsistancies.
Logos666
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
"Firstly"

The vows are known to those who take the vows and they are free to not take the vow and walk away at any time.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


[link to en.wikipedia.org]

You make the logical fallicy that since YOU do not know the vows that those who take the vows do not.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


It's "fallacy". And I did not say that they don't know the vow:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

How is a vow as "an inhumane regression into archaic word magic that is contrary to the spiritual destiny of man based on love" when in a marriage you take vows to the one you love?
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


I explained that further above.

And while our views on marriage are irrelvant to the topic (note the italics, it means it isn't part of the discussion proper), since you started it, I consider marriage extremely destructive. If there is love, there is no need for a vow. Vows are substitutes for love. Ceremonial marriage is largely an economic institution (and IMO the root of the destruction of the planet since it generates male economic competition) and a substitute for genuine love. Try telling your lover you do not want to marry him/her because you love him/her and watch the reaction. If he/she is not amused, he/she doesn't love you.

A vow is the ultimate sign of love, not the opposite.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


That's just your personal opinion and is easily refuted by millions of counter proofs. Truth is not your goal, it seems.


A vow is the promise to uphold what is contained in the vow through your words and actions.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


And in the form given in such societies, that's bad. I gave reasons in my first post on this thread.
Logos666
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"Secondly"

And yet "highly intellegent people" commonly form organizations of large numbers of people:
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


It's "intelligent" (even though the Latin root is indeed "intellegere").

colleges, research organizations, internet discussion groups, even society itself is a large collection of people. It is only when people allow themselves to be rules by the most base ideas and feelings do we see problems (which can happen even by lone individuals with no organizations).
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Society is by and large a dangerous place for intelligent people to live in. Of course, as regards common base needs of society (like food, shelter, health care, etc.) low intelligence among peers is not such an obstruction to find some common ground. And for all the other purposes, it is clear that people steer clear of each other for precisely the same reasons that would cause problems for the membership of an independent, intelligent thinker among freemasons, who for example, has rational grounds to argue how the administration of vows in the name of G_d (a not well defined term even !!!) by the freemasons is a case of utter hybris that borders on mental illness.

It is a completely different matter when philosophical principles and other questions necessitating higher intelligence are relevant to the question of whether you are being considered an acceptable member. Especially if a lot of advantages/disadvantages hang in the balance. For example, one there are rational grounds to argue how the administration of vows in the name of G_d (a not well defined term even !!!) by the freemasons is a case of utter hybris that borders on mental illness. And one can plausibly consider the prohibition of humor during ritual work a collective neurosis with no rational grounds.

Clearly, rational, independent minds are hence not wanted among freemasons, unless they are rational in teh sense of that group only.

Jesus and Sokrates both would not have had a good stand as a freemason.

Oh, BTW, Jesus is reported to have laughed out loud during his disciples' oh so solemn passover prayers !

Now certainly, it doesn't matter if the workers at a grocery store tolerate my views on philosophy. But is would among the freemasons.

So your argument is mute. I did not oppose human organization for practical purposes at all. But there cannot be any marriage between philosophical matters and strict, hierarchical rules and especially vows.

If you disagree, it means you have no idea what "philosophy" implies.


Freemasonry is neither "authoritorian bent" nor does it have "elite superiors". Masonry has elected officials whose duty it is to work for the benefit of their members and most of those who have become those leaders have not been "elite superiors".
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


I did not say that the elite superiors are "elite superiors" (that is that they would be given that appellation). But the fact that you call them "leaders" or, more overtly, others are called "Grand Master" and what not, shows that that's what they are factually are in that organization.

Anyone who applies themself can find that they can achieve the highest positions in Freemasonry
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Yes, but then inside of it he is an elite superior. I did not mean to say he is a superior by virtue of coming from some elite in another sense.


The rights of the individual member is held as the highest importance and all members are equal.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Does that include those who insist that they consider vows in the name of god by a human organization a ridiculous abomination ? Or is the right of the individual compromised by his membership as a mason in this regard ?

Does the right of the individual include his own dress code, or is uniformation somehow limiting this after all ?

For example, I consider all suit and tie symbolism as evil because it represents a willingness to kill for money and do the superior's bidding unquestioned (research the history of the tie, it is no coincidence that it was introduced as the standard in "good societies"). This is nothing in particular about Feemasons, but what if I would come to meetings like this:

[link to www.yamatuti.ch]
[link to www.chillcompany.ch]

It is an open secret that Freemasonry is flooded with bankers and businessmen, and you know their preferences.


A position like Master of a Lodge or Grand Master of a Grand Lodge are only temporary (1 to 2 years).

No one in Freemasonry is beyond scrutiny
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


I'd like to test that, and until then I don't believe it. But I do recall that my brother was once visited and scrutinized as an applicant (and rejected). I find this very idea that FMs scrutinize me rather than the other way round completely laughable.

You and your predecessor, for instance, have already failed according to my criteria on several logical grounds. I am positive no reasonable dialogue with people like you would last much longer than a few minutes.

In my club, perhaps Einstein, Gödel and these folks would pass the test.
Logos666
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01/05/2010 04:01 PM
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has rational grounds to argue how the administration of vows in the name of G_d (a not well defined term even !!!) by the freemasons is a case of utter hybris that borders on mental illness.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


Parodn the repetition, I forgot to delete its first ocurrence.
Logos666
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01/05/2010 04:23 PM
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"Thirdly"

You state near the beginning of your post that you "have no prejudices against Freemasonry on religious or irrational grounds" but state here a position based solely on religious grounds.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


That's complete poppycock.

Even an atheist would agree that solemn vows in the name of god is a regression into the pre-rational.

If your memory would function well, you would recognize that I mentioned Jesus as an example for why it is internally inconsistent for FMs to claim that membership is open to Christians and still demand vows. This argument has nothing to do with an acceptance of religious position as a christian. Even an atheist or a shaman from the jungle would be able to point out this inconsistency without being a christian. And this is true even though I do in fact have very high regard for Yeshua, but my argument does not depend on this high regard.

Anyone with a bit of education would have immediately gotten that the first time around.


The one passage you use for your objection has a different translation: Matthew 5:33 "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shall nor forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:". The whole lesson to be learned from the passage is not to take oaths, but only to take oaths before the Lord alone and that your oaths must be truthful "Let your communication be Yea, yea; Nea, nea".
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


You conveniently cut off after 33, skipped 34-36 and then resumed at 37, half of which you cut off again for convenience.

In almost all the translation he clearly prohibits and oaths. You can click through all the english versions in the drop down

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

and if you can find one or two which by lots of hairsplitting you can interpret that way, I don't give a damn, since that's why I also included the Luther translation which has in many ways proven to be exemplary:

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

You might say "this is not newest standard". So ? I look at the "Einheitsübersetzung" which certainly is closer to that, and it clearly says:

"33 Ihr habt gehört, dass zu den Alten gesagt worden ist: Du sollst keinen Meineid schwören, und: Du sollst halten, was du dem Herrn geschworen hast.
34 Ich aber sage euch: Schwört überhaupt nicht, weder beim Himmel, denn er ist Gottes Thron,
35 noch bei der Erde, denn sie ist der Schemel für seine Füße, noch bei Jerusalem, denn es ist die Stadt des großen Königs.
36 Auch bei deinem Haupt sollst du nicht schwören; denn du kannst kein einziges Haar weiß oder schwarz machen.
37 Euer Ja sei ein Ja, euer Nein ein Nein; alles andere stammt vom Bösen."


Nice try. Don't try again. Please.


The old testament has no bearing on the issue of whether Jesus prohibited vows. That old piece of writing contains injunctions to kill babies for the Lord, go figure !
Logos666
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01/05/2010 04:39 PM
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"Fourth"

The only inconsistencies above are in your own logic, knowledge, and assumptions.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Like what ? Your previous drivel makes this highly questionable.

You see, I am a mathematician and majored in formal logic. And you think you can find a logical fallacy in what I write ?


People who join Freemasonry see the consistencies
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923



One inconsistency would make it impossible to participate for a reasonable person. "Ex falso quodlibet":

[link to en.wikipedia.org]


Freemasonry is a group of honest men
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


No honest man can claim christians are welcome and demand vows in the name of god given by these people.

(which sadly does seem to be a phenomenon these days), but unlike what you seem to hope it is, it is not "ruled by severe stupidity which unwittingly promotes the destruction of the planet by promoting the cause of detruction: patriarchy, that is men wanting wealth or status so that they can have sex." Freemasonry has promoted the advancement of intellegent thought, great principles, human rights, charity, religious toleration, and protection of the planet for the benefit of all.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Give me the names of a couple female grand masters.

Not to see the inconsistencies I mentioned is stupidity, not because it would be my opinion. It is obvious.

I like how at the end you seem to attempt to claim to know how Jesus and Jiddu Krishnamurti might have felt based upon your own personally prejudices, false claims, and inconsistancies.
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


"seem" is in your eyes. I know what Jesus has been reported to say about vows, his stand towards "in-crowds" versus outsiders governed by ritual. Jiddu Krishnamurti is a more recent example and was very explicit about this.

Your attempts at making a rather objective fact (Jiddu Krishnamurti for instancee is a contemporary for many who are still alive) into a subjective opinion and imposition from my side is dishonest to an extreme.

Thanks for another example of Freemasonic ethical standards in discourse, but no thanks !

__________


You know it is one thing for ordinary people to fail my standards, and I do not consider myself a more important person over that. I am not generally better than people who do not hold water according to my standards.

But if an organization constantly fails at those standards while at the same time claiming that their organization's purpose is the upholding of these very same standards (by their own professed principles) then it becomes despicable and really, really sad.
Logos666
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01/05/2010 04:40 PM
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Next time, please think it through before you write. Or better still: just drop it.

Thanks !

All the best.
Logos666
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01/06/2010 10:03 AM
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You make the logical fallicy that since YOU do not know the vows that those who take the vows do not.


It's "fallacy". And I did not say that they don't know the vow:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


Just making sure:

when I said:

That is particularly true if the higher degrees under which he is taking the vow are not under scrutiny of the individual taking the vow.
 Quoting: Logos666 848368


nowhere did I say they did not know the contents of their own vows. They do not know the content of the vows of those superiors who administer his taking the vow or have laid down its funadmental roots and procedures, and that's the point.

If you think that all is an open book in Freemasonry, count yourself as ignorant, read more of Manly P. Hall and Albert Pike.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Don't be such a naive Schmuck, which is of course what they want you to be.
Anonymous Coward
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01/06/2010 10:07 AM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
Thanks for the intelligent post. Such posts are guaranteed to get one star. You can count on it. Logic and reason aren't welcomed by many people. Most of them are cranks of some kind. Of course, cranks sometimes post entertaining tales about conspiracy theories and secret societies. They're fun to read, but consider the source. Freemasonry likely isn't for me, but I'll defend it against unwarranted attacks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 815629


Well golly! Posting about conspiracy theories on a conspiracy website!!! Whoda Thunkit?????


So tell me, what the hell are you Oh So Level-Headed types doing here, hmmmmmm?
Logos666
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01/06/2010 10:09 AM
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I see you intentionally misquoted me:

Freemasonry ...
unlike what you seem to hope it is, it is not "ruled by severe stupidity which unwittingly promotes the destruction of the planet by promoting the cause of detruction: patriarchy, that is men wanting wealth or status so that they can have sex."
 Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


What I did in fact say is this:

Therefore, either Freemasonry as a group phenomenon is honest, then it is an anachronistic men's club which is ruled by severe stupidity which unwittingly promotes the destruction of the planet by promoting the cause of detruction: patriarchy, that is men wanting wealth or status so that they can have sex.

Otherwise it is inherently dishonest.

In both cases, they are not what they profess to be
 Quoting: Logos666 848368


You are a liar.

Typical.
Logos666
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01/06/2010 10:41 AM
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superiors which tend to be rich, upper class, with all the attending stupidities of a lack of empathy and understanding for the downtrodden, as well as the usual "patriarchal" idiocies of not seeing how patriarchy itself is slavery and a continuation of the very sexual capitalism which is destroying the planet

(ever since private property - roughly 7000 years, probably the same time groups like Freemasonry started - unattractive men could buy women's favors and for that reason engage in economic competition reckless to the exact degree they wanted to have sex when they were young - with women who in turn were really _not_ so horny for them unless they pay or have status; that is, patriarchy is institutionalized prostitution).
...

If there is anyone under whom I would take a vow, the first condition would hence have to be that he has largely given up wealth, status and sex when he was still young - or otherwise certainly primitivity ultimately dictates the game in spite of all professed reasonable principles.
 Quoting: Logos666 848368



And while our views on marriage are irrelevant to the topic (note the italics, it means it isn't part of the discussion proper), since you started it, I consider marriage extremely destructive. If there is love, there is no need for a vow. Vows are substitutes for love. Ceremonial marriage is largely an economic institution (and IMO the root of the destruction of the planet since it generates male economic competition) and a substitute for genuine love. Try telling your lover you do not want to marry him/her because you love him/her and watch the reaction. If he/she is not amused, he/she doesn't love you.


"A vow is the ultimate sign of love, not the opposite." [Freemason apologist speaking]

That's just your personal opinion and is easily refuted by millions of counter proofs.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945



Synchronicity has it that I just ran across a wonderfully funny video of this old prankster who says much of the same thing.

Don't take it all too seriously, of course his main objective was to provoke, but by and large I agree:



I think he was too optimistic, humans are not yet ready to leave the children to the community because the community hasn't sufficiently developed love to feel resonsible for all children they did not beget. This is why the experiment in this direction in his own communes miserably failed.

But what is highly in need right now is that the economic responsibility for the children is transfered from the parents, especially the father, to the community, and hence (a) the sexual obligation of the mother to the father as well as (b) the bribery of the child's mind through economic coercion by the parents evaporates. A child can no longer be forced to think, feel and believe like their parents because it is economically free from them and owes them nothing in economic regards. It is indebted to the community as a whole which finances its life (not that of the mother - she will have to work for her life just as the father does, and they both equally share the responsibility of changing diapers and all, and the community must be such that they can switch roles and work while doing all that).

The fundamental principle is this:

The sphere of love and the sphere of economics must be separated.

As long as a woman's choice of partner is in the slightest influenced by the wealth or status of a man, she is a prostitute and there can be no love.

I am not opposed to true marriage which is merely a word of the Divine influence in the intimacy of two people. Such is only possible if economic considerations or those of status or the opinions or others do not play the slightest role in the intimacy whatsoever !

This is what God's blessing for a marriage means: it is true love which is God !

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

No vow administered by humans and resolution and activity by the mind and will can promise that ! The very idea that you could vow to love is like the idea you could vow to be happy. Ridiculous ! It signifies the very rebellion by the hybris of thinking and human self-will against God in matters of love.



Therefore to contaminate true non-ceremonial marriage with a vow is to destroy the supremacy of love (to which we can only surrender as long She descides to bless us with Her presence). And then all you have is the neurotical economic or cultural contract that humans call "marriage", and that needs to be abolished ! Especially for those who can afford to maintain such an illusion.

Of course, such a resurrection of love over economic considerations in what they call "marriage" is the last thing the Freemasons want since it would mean the end of sexual activity of most of these ugly fat men armed with suits and ties.
Logos666
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01/06/2010 10:42 AM
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From now on I expect only inane repetition.

Please read the original thoroughly before being moved emotionally and unreasonably to respond:

Thread: An Overview of Freemasonry

All the best !
Anonymous Coward
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01/06/2010 11:48 AM
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You forgot that they deceptively control the creation of the 'new world order'.
Anonymous Coward
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01/06/2010 11:51 AM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
"Firstly"

The vows are known to those who take the vows and they are free to not take the vow and walk away at any time.
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


[link to en.wikipedia.org]

 Quoting: Logos666 857945


A wikipedia quote does not an arguement make, unless you are attempting to make a "Ignoratio elenchi" yourself. My reply is in reply to "The nature of a vow itself, especially if the content of the vow be secret, that is cannot be scrutinized and discussed preceding the assumption of the vow..." showing that your arguement is incorrect as I stated.


You make the logical fallicy that since YOU do not know the vows that those who take the vows do not.
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


It's "fallacy". And I did not say that they don't know the vow:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


Again, just using a wikipedia link does not make an arguement (or are you staing that your spelling correction is a "straw man"?). Your whole arguement till that point is based solely on your belief that others are unaware of the Masonic vows and your belief of what vows represent. If you do not wish to be refuted by being told of your lack of knowledge or that you made a mistake in the assumption that others do not possess knowledge that you do, or hold the same beliefs, then do not make such assumptions.


How is a vow as "an inhumane regression into archaic word magic that is contrary to the spiritual destiny of man based on love" when in a marriage you take vows to the one you love?
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923

I explained that further above.

And while our views on marriage are irrelvant to the topic (note the italics, it means it isn't part of the discussion proper), since you started it, I consider marriage extremely destructive. If there is love, there is no need for a vow. Vows are substitutes for love. Ceremonial marriage is largely an economic institution (and IMO the root of the destruction of the planet since it generates male economic competition) and a substitute for genuine love. Try telling your lover you do not want to marry him/her because you love him/her and watch the reaction. If he/she is not amused, he/she doesn't love you.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


It appears yet again you make your arguement based solely upon your beliefs and perceptions. Vows are signs of love. If you one loves another, either thier lover or their fellow man, country, ect., then they would be willing to make a vow pertaining what they might be asked of. Marriage exists through out the world in societies that have little to no economic value to marriage, so while in modern western countries it has been "institutionalized" in history and still in some societies it represents its original meaning, love.

A vow is the ultimate sign of love, not the opposite.
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923

That's just your personal opinion and is easily refuted by millions of counter proofs. Truth is not your goal, it seems.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


Actually you will find that it is a view held by a vast majority of people, including gays who are now fighting to have the "right to marry" instead of just "civil unions" (like California).

A vow is the promise to uphold what is contained in the vow through your words and actions.
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923

And in the form given in such societies, that's bad. I gave reasons in my first post on this thread.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


You gave your opinion. Although you seem to wish to think it is "deeply pre-rational (not mystically trans-rational), it is an appeal to archaic, not well defined magical tricks, it is an anachronism of falling back into a quasi old-testamentarian and definitely pre-age-of-enlightenment idea of what constitutes being human." It is very rational as it shows your internal willingness to hold to what is asked. Vows in history were used less than today and most vows today are based upon legal (non-religious) functions (military and governmental oaths/vows, court oaths/vows). Vows gained more usage (especially non-religious) and prominence in the age of enlightenment than in previous ages.
Anonymous Coward
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01/06/2010 12:11 PM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
The secret of Freemasonry is the same as it is with any organisation, religion, Empire or "builder". And that is: that the way to riches and power is Human sacrifice and ceaseless evil. The more evil you do, the more "good" you can accomplish.

That's why an Empire always have to be at war, or in some other way brutalising somebody to stay on top; and why they always fall when their people get rich satisfied and too nice to constantly support war and attrocity.

That's why they can't just pass something like a health care bill and let it just be about caring for people. They are going to have to attach a lot of other stuff to it like support for abortions, stem cell research and some other life demeaning b.s.
Anonymous Coward
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01/06/2010 12:46 PM
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Re: An Overview of Freemasonry
colleges, research organizations, internet discussion groups, even society itself is a large collection of people. It is only when people allow themselves to be rules by the most base ideas and feelings do we see problems (which can happen even by lone individuals with no organizations).
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923

Society is by and large a dangerous place for intelligent people to live in...
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


And yet it is the intelligent people who benefit the most by their use of society and those who do not think intelligently are who are many times harmed the most (taken advantage of, swindled, ect). Unless you think people like Bill Gates, Carnegie, other powerful industrial leaders, and governmental leaders are not intelligent people.

People stear clear of each other not because they are "an independent, intelligent thinker" as they would be able to realise the benefits of association and collective support of others but because of their own, many times illogical and un-informed, perceptions of others (fear, hybris, ect).

Independant thought is openly welcome among Freemasons, hence the association and sometimes membership of many thinkers through out history (Voltiare, thought only for a few months, Samuel Clemens, Will Rogers, Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, Booker T. Washington, ect). Of course like with all organizations (and society) adherence to a common (and at times changed) code of conduct is neccesary. With Freemasonry it is tolerance, morality, honesty, religious belief (of your choosing) and love (through brotherhood and charity).

Again you make assumptions about Jesus and Sokrates, if they would even wish to join or be accepted cannot be proven, nor disproven. And again you make assumptions about Freemasons and how Freemasonry has been organized and operates.

Freemasonry is neither "authoritorian bent" nor does it have "elite superiors". Masonry has elected officials whose duty it is to work for the benefit of their members and most of those who have become those leaders have not been "elite superiors".
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


I did not say that the elite superiors are "elite superiors" (that is that they would be given that appellation). But the fact that you call them "leaders" or, more overtly, others are called "Grand Master" and what not, shows that that's what they are factually are in that organization.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


Then why use the term "elite superiors" and not say what you meant. What is a leader, someone who rules over others or someone who is put into their position to perform the work needed and requested by the membership? The Masonic leadership is always elected by the membership and answers to the membership. While given some powers to best perform their duties they still have to rely on the assent of the membership for budgets and to enact any changes. Members themselves are also able to propose changes, which again must be approved by the membership. You attempt to make "Grand Master" as some proof of what? Many who are not well versed in Freemasonry view words like "Master" and "Worshipful" (used in Freemasonry as the old english meaning of worthy of respect) in ways Masons do not.

The rights of the individual member is held as the highest importance and all members are equal.
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923


Does that include those who insist that they consider vows in the name of god by a human organization a ridiculous abomination ? Or is the right of the individual compromised by his membership as a mason in this regard ?

Does the right of the individual include his own dress code, or is uniformation somehow limiting this after all ?

For example, I consider all suit and tie symbolism as evil because it represents a willingness to kill for money and do the superior's bidding unquestioned (research the history of the tie, it is no coincidence that it was introduced as the standard in "good societies"). This is nothing in particular about Feemasons, but what if I would come to meetings like this:

[link to www.yamatuti.ch]
[link to www.chillcompany.ch]

It is an open secret that Freemasonry is flooded with bankers and businessmen, and you know their preferences.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


If they "insist that they consider vows in the name of god by a human organization a "ridiculous abomination" then why would they choose to join? Your point is moot.

Yes, members are free to wear (within basic societal constrictions) what they wish in a Lodge meeting. Although the suit and tie or tuxedo are commonly held "standard of dress" they are not universal, not enforced in any manner. They do allow all members to wear a "standard" wear as to not make others view them by their clothing but instead by their interior qualities. I know many Lodges that do not use suits and ties or tuxedos and have shown up at my Lodge several times in just a work shirt and jeans. So again you presumptions and beliefs wind up being moot. "An open secret that Freemasonry is flooded with bankers and businessmen, and you know their preferences". Yet another appeal to not fact but to supposition, not needed to be answered as it is absurd and only based upon your beliefs and prejudices.

A position like Master of a Lodge or Grand Master of a Grand Lodge are only temporary (1 to 2 years).

No one in Freemasonry is beyond scrutiny
Quoting: BeukendaalMason 857923

I'd like to test that, and until then I don't believe it. But I do recall that my brother was once visited and scrutinized as an applicant (and rejected). I find this very idea that FMs scrutinize me rather than the other way round completely laughable.

You and your predecessor, for instance, have already failed according to my criteria on several logical grounds. I am positive no reasonable dialogue with people like you would last much longer than a few minutes.

In my club, perhaps Einstein, Gödel and these folks would pass the test.
 Quoting: Logos666 857945


If you have not looked into the actual operation and functioning of Freemasonry then it might be best not to attempt to make suppositions, if you really wish to show that you are as intelligent as you wish others to think, it might be best to do complete research before you attempt to tell others that you possess all of the knowledge.

Who says you cannot scrutinize Freemasonry (you have aptly shown that you have) and what makes you, or anyone else beyond scrutiny (your hybris?)? Freemasonry has certain standards (tolerance, morality, honesty, religious belief) that we hold our members to, if you or anyone else is not up to those standards or cannot maintain them, then why should we wish to associate, or continue to associate with you? Your hybris?

I care not that I "failed according to my criteria on several logical grounds" because they are your "logical grounds" and are not based upon logic but rather your own hybris.

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