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The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for

 
Witness_
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The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
With so many deniers falling victim to the energy lobby's attempts to undermine the science and all the evidence of global warming, here is an impartial, honest look at how these well-meaning people are duped, how a lack of knowledge combined with clever sleight of hand by those peddling this deception get these people to doubt credible science and how to help your fellow man to start to think and to obtain knowledge and an education so that they can learn facts and not just fall victim of the deep funds by the big oil and energy interests behind this spam.

[link to news.bbc.co.uk]

'Show Your Working': What 'ClimateGate' means

Mike Hulme and Jerome Ravetz

VIEWPOINT
Mike Hulme and Jerome Ravetz

The "ClimateGate" affair - the publication of e-mails and documents hacked or leaked from one of the world's leading climate research institutions - is being intensely debated on the web. But what does it imply for climate science? Here, Mike Hulme and Jerome Ravetz say it shows that we need a more concerted effort to explain and engage the public in understanding the processes and practices of science and scientists.

Robot
Practising scientists know that they do not simply follow a rulebook to do their science, otherwise it could be done by a robot

As the repercussions of ClimateGate reverberate around the virtual community of global citizens, we believe it is both important and urgent to reflect on what this moment is telling us about the practice of science in the 21st Century.

In particular, what is it telling us about the social status and perceived authority of scientific claims about climate change?

We argue that the evolving practice of science in the contemporary world must be different from the classic view of disinterested - almost robotic - humans establishing objective claims to universal truth.

Climate change policies are claimed to be grounded in scientific knowledge about physical cause and effect and about reliable projections of the future.

As opposed to other ways of knowing the world around us - through intuition, inherited belief, myth - such scientific knowledge retains its authority by widespread trust in science's reassuring norms of objectivity, universality and disinterestedness.

These perceived norms work to guarantee to the public trustworthy scientific knowledge, and allow such knowledge to claim high authority in political deliberation and argumentation; this, at least, is what historically has been argued in the case of climate change.
President Sarkozy
Policy-makers are looking for reliable projections from climate scientists

What distinguishes science from other forms of knowledge?

On what basis does scientific knowledge earn its high status and authority?

What are the minimum standards of scientific practice that ensure it is trustworthy?

For an open, enquiring and participative society, these are questions that have become much more important in the wake of ClimateGate.

They are also questions that scientists should continually be asking of themselves as the political and cultural worlds within which they do their work rapidly change.

Doing science in 2010 demands something rather different from scientists than did science in 1960, or even in 1985.

How science has evolved

The understanding of science as a social activity has changed quite radically in the last 50 years.

The classic virtues of scientific objectivity, universality and disinterestedness can no longer be claimed to be automatically effective as the essential properties of scientific knowledge.

Instead, warranted knowledge - knowledge that is authoritative, reliable and guaranteed on the basis of how it has been acquired - has become more sought after than the ideal of some ultimately true and objective knowledge.

The public... may not be able to describe fluid dynamics using mathematics, but they can recognise evasiveness when they see it

Harrabin: Rethinking the IPCC

Warranted knowledge places great weight on ensuring that the authenticating roles of socially-agreed norms and practices in science are adequately fulfilled - what in other fields is called quality assurance.

And science earns its status in society from strict adherence to such norms.

For climate change, this may mean the adequate operation of professional peer review, the sharing of empirical data, the open acknowledgement of errors, and openness about one's funders.

Crucially, the idea of warranted knowledge also recognises that these internal norms and practices will change over time in response to external changes in political culture, science funding and communication technologies.

In certain areas of research - and climate change is certainly one of these - the authenticating of scientific knowledge now demands two further things: an engagement with expertise outside the laboratory, and responsiveness to the natural scepticism and desire for scrutiny of an educated public.

The public may not be able to follow radiation physics, but they can follow an argument; they may not be able to describe fluid dynamics using mathematics, but they can recognise evasiveness when they see it.

Where claims of scientific knowledge provide the basis of significant public policy, demands for what has been called "extended peer review" and "the democratisation of science" become overwhelming.
Albert Einstein
Science has changed a lot since Einstein's day - and so has society

Extended peer review is an idea that can take many forms.

It may mean the involvement of a wider range of professionals than just scientists.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), for example, included individuals from industry, environmental organisations and government officials as peer reviewers of early drafts of their assessments.

More radically, some have suggested that opening up expert knowledge to the scrutiny of the wider public is also warranted.

While there will always be a unique function for expert scientific reviewers to play in authenticating knowledge, this need not exclude other interested and motivated citizens from being active.

These demands for more openness in science are intensified by the embedding of the internet and Web 2.0 media as central features of many people's social exchanges.

It is no longer tenable to believe that warranted and trusted scientific knowledge can come into existence inside laboratories that are hermetically sealed from such demands.

A revolution in science

So we have a three-fold revolution in the demands that are placed on scientific knowledge claims as they apply to investigations such as climate change:

* To be warranted, knowledge must emerge from a respectful process in which science's own internal social norms and practices are adhered to
* To be validated, knowledge must also be subject to the scrutiny of an extended community of citizens who have legitimate stakes in the significance of what is being claimed
* And to be empowered for use in public deliberation and policy-making, knowledge must be fully exposed to the proliferating new communication media by which such extended peer scrutiny takes place.

The opportunity that lies at the centre of these more open practices of science is to secure the gold standard of trust.

And it is public trust in climate change science that has potentially been damaged as a result of the exposure of e-mails between researchers at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU) and their peers elsewhere.
President Sarkozy
Policy-makers are looking for reliable projections from climate scientists

The disclosure and content of these private exchanges is only the latest in a long line of instances that point to the need for major changes in the relationship between science and the public.

By this, we mean a more concerted effort to explain and engage the public in understanding the processes and practices of science and scientists, as much as explaining the substance of their knowledge and how (un)certain it is.

How well does the public understand professional peer review, for example, or the role of a workshop, a seminar and a conference in science?

Does the public understand how scientists go about resolving differences of opinion or reaching consensus about an important question when the uncertainties are large?

We don't mean the "textbook" answers to such things; all practising scientists know that they do not simply follow a rulebook to do their science, otherwise it could be done by a robot.

Science is a deeply human activity, and we need to be more honest about what this entails. Rather than undermining science, it would actually allow the public to place their trust more appropriately in the various types of knowledge that scientists can offer.

What should be done?

At the very least, the publication of private CRU e-mail correspondence should be seen as a wake-up call for scientists - and especially for climate scientists.

The key lesson to be learnt is that not only must scientific knowledge about climate change be publicly owned - the IPCC does a fair job of this according to its own terms - but that in the new century of digital communication and an active citizenry, the very practices of scientific enquiry must also be publicly owned.
Rajendra Pachauri, IPCC chairman
The IPCC has won a Nobel Prize - but does it need a rethink?

Unsettling as this may be for scientists, the combination of "post-normal science" and an internet-driven democratisation of knowledge demands a new professional and public ethos in science.

And there is no better place to start this revolution than with climate science.

After all, it is claimed, there is no more pressing global political challenge than this.

But might this episode signify something more in the unfolding story of climate change - maybe the start of a process of re-structuring scientific knowledge?

It is possible that some areas of climate science have become sclerotic, that its scientific practices have become too partisan, that its funding - whether from private or public sectors - has compromised scientists.

The tribalism that some of the e-mails reveal suggests a form of social organisation that is now all too familiar in some sections of business and government.

Public trust in science, which was damaged in the BSE scandal 13 years ago, risks being affected by this latest episode.

A Citizen's Panel on Climate Change (CPCC)?

It is also possible that the institutional innovation that has been the IPCC has now largely run its course.

Perhaps, through its structural tendency to politicise climate change science, it has helped to foster a more authoritarian and exclusive form of knowledge production - just at a time when a globalising and wired cosmopolitan culture is demanding of science something much more open and inclusive.
City street
A number of social issues need attention, the writers argue

The IPCC was designed by the UN in the Cold War era, before the internet and before GoogleWave.

Maybe we should think about how a Citizen's Panel on Climate Change might work in today's world, as well as a less centralising series of IPCC-like expert assessments.

If there are serious ecological and social issues to be attended to because of the way the world's climates are changing - as the authors of this article believe - then scientists need to take a long hard look at how they are creating, validating and mobilising scientific knowledge about climate change.

Climate science alters the way we think about humanity and its possible futures.

It is not the case that the science is somehow now "finished" and that we now should simply get on with implementing it.

We have decades ahead when there will be interplay between evolving scientific knowledge with persisting uncertainty and ignorance, new ways of understanding our place in the world, and new ways of being in it.

A more open and a better understood science process will mean more trusted science, and will increase the chances of both "good science" and "good policy".

"Show your working" is the imperative given to scientists when preparing for publication to peers.

There, it refers to techniques.

Now, with the public as partner in the creation and implementation of scientific knowledge in the policy domain, the injunction has a new and enhanced meaning.

Mike Hulme is professor of climate change in the School of Environmental Sciences at the University of East Anglia, and author of Why We Disagree About Climate Change

Dr Jerome Ravetz is an independent scholar affiliated to the Institute for Science, Innovation and Society (InSIS) at Oxford University

The Green Room is a series of opinion articles on environmental topics running weekly on the BBC News website
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:21 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
why is it that the warming that has been experienced is almost equal to the adjustments made in the data?

Why is it that weather station dropouts are occuring at an alarming pace and often only leaving urban stations which are shown to have an quite embarrasing bias due to uhi?
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:26 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
OP, how much are they paying you to shill this board with all that BS?
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:28 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Does the public understand how scientists go about resolving differences of opinion or reaching consensus about an important question when the uncertainties are large?

Yeah.

First they call anyone who disagrees with them stupid names, then they say that XYZ is paying them off, and when that doesn't work, they try to get them fired.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
fuckoff OP with your load of bullshit.

I will now levy a 500.00 excess carbon tax on your ass.
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:30 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
..the type of job i do requires accurate record-keeping and math skills..also have worked in keeping accurate weather records..you change or alter the data and you have created a lie that sooner or later will not hold up under scrutiny..the purpose of keeping reliable, accurate data is so that other scientists can analyze and re-create another scientists theory..these "climategate" people have violated the basic rule of scientific method.
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:33 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
stfu



go fuck yourself with this bullshit




nobody believes this shit anymore.
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:43 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
The major problem with warming is that ALL RECENT DATA SUGGESTS THE BRIEF WARMING TREND OF THE 1990'S IS OVER and that MAN HAD LITTLE TO NO IMPACT whereas SUN ACTIVITY DID.

Jesus fucking Christ how long can you people try to defend shitty "science."
ANNONYMOUS
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12/01/2009 03:47 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
5a

This article is a scream. "WARRANTABLE KNOWLEDGE" means here today gone tomorrow. Science has gained wide spread acceptance precisely because it did not indulge in practices like this. These two reporters have obviously been in the credit card koolaid, 5% today 30% tomorrow. What they are advocating is nothing more than speculative theory being accepted as solid science and that is bullshit pure and simple.
Revbo

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12/01/2009 03:48 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Let the games begin again. Come on, fellow "energy industry lobbyists." Let's see if we can keep the 1 stars higher than the posts this time. Don't let me down.

Last Edited by Revbo on 12/01/2009 03:50 PM
TANSTAAFL
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 03:51 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Let the games begin again. Come on, fellow "energy industry lobbyists." Let's see if we can keep the 1 stars higher than the posts this time. Don't let me down.
 Quoting: Revbo


Umm, okay if we're supposed to be "energy industry lobbyists" does that make you a "carbon tax lobbyist"?
Matrix
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Sure if you cut down enough trees, and over fish the oceans imbalances are going to occur, but saying that C02 is like a poison and so we need to drastically cut its introduction into the air is just going too far. Do you realize how much our world depends on carbon based energy OP? While we in the west are going to cut back, those in the east are going to expand, is that what you want, those who have no concept of human rights and regard for the planet are going to become the dominant force, while we in the west who believe in the right to voice your opinions are going to be forced into the dark ages?

I would be all for, if we could live the lifestyles we now live with the condition of planting of just as many trees to cover the burning of carbon as a offset, and stopped the over fishing and the dumping toxic waste into the oceans, but what this climate change religion proposes is going to make sweeping changes which will cost us jobs, its going to give power to a unelected body to impose taxes and regulations over many forms of economic activity, its going to cause the corporations to pass on their costs, so that we pay more to get less. Freedom and democracy is going to be first taxed and then done away with, if this goes ahead, this will drive the western world into a feudalistic system and the eastern world into slave masters paradise, where the rich will be able to afford to pollute, the middle class will no longer exist, and the ranks of the poor will swell to pay the price, of this global redistribution of wealth.
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
bump for more disapproval from the GLP family.

Witness, you're full of crap and your "scientists" are all liars. 9 votes for an average of 1 star. Nobody believes the environmentalists anymore except people in a position to benefit from it financially, and they don't really believe it. This is a forum of regular people, not shills, and we're not buying it.
TANSTAAFL
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Its from the bbc for fucks sake do people never learn
Revbo

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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Let the games begin again. Come on, fellow "energy industry lobbyists." Let's see if we can keep the 1 stars higher than the posts this time. Don't let me down.


Umm, okay if we're supposed to be "energy industry lobbyists" does that make you a "carbon tax lobbyist"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 424872


That was sarcasm. Witness implies that anyone who disagrees with him is either employed or duped by the energy industry, so all the 1 stars must be energy industry lobbyists. Haha.

Last Edited by Revbo on 12/01/2009 04:01 PM
TANSTAAFL
Fhirinne

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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
There is no point in damage control here OP, the ship broke in half and its gonna sink and dont matter if you people cry or start bailing out water.. Man made global warming is dead!

anything that used to be science has been washed away, anything that may have once been pure is now utter Bs and its about carbon taxing our asses back into the stone age, its about money not science.. so STFU
You are the CEO of your own wellness. You need to take back your health from the disease-care system
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2009 04:12 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
bsflag

[link to www.climate-resistance.org]

bsflag
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Let the games begin again. Come on, fellow "energy industry lobbyists." Let's see if we can keep the 1 stars higher than the posts this time. Don't let me down.


Umm, okay if we're supposed to be "energy industry lobbyists" does that make you a "carbon tax lobbyist"?


That was sarcasm. Witness implies that anyone who disagrees with him is either employed or duped by the energy industry, so all the 1 stars must be energy industry lobbyists. Haha.
 Quoting: Revbo



ah ok, i misunderstood. sorry
Anonymous Coward
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once again witness seems to have done a runner
Anonymous Coward
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12/06/2009 04:19 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
With so many deniers falling victim to the energy lobby's attempts to undermine the science and all the evidence of global warming...
 Quoting: Witness_


Hi Witness_, did you know that the Climate Research Unit (CRU) is funded by the "energy lobby"? If the scientists that are pushing the manmade global warming theory are funded by the energy lobby, doesn't that discredit them in your eyes?



[link to www.cru.uea.ac.uk]

Acknowledgements
This list is not fully exhaustive, but we would like to acknowledge the support of the following funders (in alphabetical order):

British Council, British Petroleum, Broom's Barn Sugar Beet Research Centre, Central Electricity Generating Board, Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS), Commercial Union, Commission of European Communities (CEC, often referred to now as EU), Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCLRC), Department of Energy, Department of the Environment (DETR, now DEFRA), Department of Health, Department of Trade and Industry (DTI), Eastern Electricity, Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC), Environment Agency, Forestry Commission, Greenpeace International, International Institute of Environmental Development (IIED), Irish Electricity Supply Board, KFA Germany, Leverhulme Trust, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF), National Power, National Rivers Authority, Natural Environmental Research Council (NERC), Norwich Union, Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, Overseas Development Administration (ODA), Reinsurance Underwriters and Syndicates, Royal Society, Scientific Consultants, Science and Engineering Research Council (SERC), Scottish and Northern Ireland Forum for Environmental Research, Shell, Stockholm Environment Agency, Sultanate of Oman, Tate and Lyle, UK Met. Office, UK Nirex Ltd., United Nations Environment Plan (UNEP), United States Department of Energy, United States Environmental Protection Agency, Wolfson Foundation and the World Wildlife Fund for Nature (WWF).

---

Now, did you want to say something about the energy industry funding dodgy scientists to do dodgy science?

[link to www.cru.uea.ac.uk]
Smilin' Irish Eyes

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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Does the public understand how scientists go about resolving differences of opinion or reaching consensus about an important question when the uncertainties are large?

Yeah.

First they call anyone who disagrees with them stupid names, then they say that XYZ is paying them off, and when that doesn't work, they try to get them fired.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 831349


Agreed.


Seriously Witness how can you even defend these people?

True scientists work together and acknowledge what works and what doesn't work. Science should be purely empirical not subjective.
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. -- Lord Chesterfield
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
OP is blinded by the MSM, clearly.

"Global Warming" is/was a hoax to implement a new tax, the Carbon Tax, on the people.

"Climate change" IS real, but is a naturally occurring phenomenon that comes in cycles. Certainly geenhouse gases, co2, etc... don't help the matter, but they also don't make it any worse. And let's not forget that the US gov and other governments can now manipulate the weather to their liking, be it warm and sunny or disastrous.

"Global Warming's" only purpose was to implement a new tax on already over taxed people.
Yes We Will See Truth
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We are polluting the planet yes, and carbon dioxide is NOT the cause.
The Earth is changing and it is the SUNS activity that affects the warming/cooling of this planet.

The Petrochemical Industry and our methods of waste disposal (poisons not CO2)) are choking the Earth. The sucking of oil and gas from the earth's crust/mantle is destabilizing tectonic plates and causing earthquakes and volcanic eruption.
Our weather is being tampered with (chemtrails and Tesla weather modification), Wars, mass murder and suffering pollutes the vibration of our blue/green planet.

Carbon Taxes are a criminal invention to make profit and AGW (Anthropic Global Warming) is the Trojan Horse to birth the NWO.
The suppression of new energy technology is choking the Earth and humanity, we should have moved on years ago from oil and coal.

The issues that everyone is arguing about miss the point.

Global warming/cooling is NOT man made it is affected by the Sun's bio rhythm.
The poisoning and raping of the Earth IS man made, and the Earth is reacting.
Both facts are creating Climate chaos.

Solution:

We must stop using current energy technology and disclose the hidden knowledge of alternative energy sources.
Disclosure of the existence of benevolent Extra Terrestrial life would force this issue into the open.

If you say there are no alternatives other than ugly wind turbines (and only the 3rd Dimension exists) then you have been lazy in your research. What you might find out may require you to open your mind a little.

for starters there is a furnace burning at the centre of the earth... thermal energy anyone?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Everybody knows that there were ice ages in the past. Nobody knows why the ice ages started, or why they finished.

It should be obvious to anybody who thinks about it, that if the planet has ice ages, it must also have something which is not an ice age. Let's call that something a 'warm age'. Since there was an ice age in the recent past, clearly we would expect the planet's temperature to rise when it is moving towards a 'warm age'.

The global warmers want us to cut all our carbon dioxide emissions. They say this will stop the planet from warming up. Suppose the planet is warming up due to the unknown factor which changes the planet from ice age to warm age. This is a reasonable assumption. In this case, cutting carbon dioxide emissions will do nothing to stop the planet warming up.

People would be paying carbon tax on everything, everybody would be poorer, and for nothing. The planet would still warm up. It is entirely natural for the planet to warm up as it changes from an ice age to a warm age. Cutting carbon dioxide emissions will not stop the planet from warming up.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Does the public understand how scientists go about resolving differences of opinion or reaching consensus about an important question when the uncertainties are large?

Yeah.

First they call anyone who disagrees with them stupid names, then they say that XYZ is paying them off, and when that doesn't work, they try to get them fired.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 831349

Yes this is exactly what they do. Scientists try to pretend that they are disinterest and objective, but above all else they are human beings with all of the greed, selfish interest and twisted emotions that are shared by all people to one extent or another. When they have vested interest, they are not objective observers, but pushers of their own preconceived notions.
Anonymous Coward
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12/06/2009 08:05 PM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
ANTISEMITES! HATERS! NAZIS!

Poor Goldman Sachs! If you damn Jew hating Global Warming Holocaust Deniers have your way, the poor dears won't even be able to feed their families!

rivotears

Goldman Sachs Sells $12M in Carbon Offsets in Largest Such U.S. Deal So Far
[link to www.environmentalleader.com]
Witness_  (OP)

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12/12/2009 08:55 AM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Wheeeee!!!!!

See all the energy lobbyists here posting spam and giving 1 star votes!

Wow!

Trin, I hope that you are making some money from these pricks in form of membership fees! Bleed the lobby coffers of their money I say!

Not that the money will run out, it's more or less bottomless.

This is a straight fight between the good guys and the energy lobby now.
Anonymous Coward
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12/12/2009 09:01 AM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
shill shill shill

OP = a lame shill, who doesn't do a very good job of hiding his shilly ways. you must have went to the same shillschool as guns n god did.
jkm1864
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12/12/2009 09:22 AM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Seriously You are a fucking idiot. If it was about saving the planet it wouldn't tax us to death. How on earth are people going to lower their carbon foot print with more taxes? Could I buy solar pannels for my house or an electric car? I don't think so! The majority of people are struggling now and can not take on more debt. The only thing this crap is about is control and to tax the peasants.


If they really cared about the environment We would change our ways. They would pass laws banning plastics and using glass, metal, & fiber instead. We would also start building more electric cars... We could also get rid of the dreaded taxes and make a 33% consumption tax and put exclusions on solar, wind, & electric vehicles....


So hopefully You can see but then again You are probably a stupid demoncrap that can't even have one logical though since emotions rule Your life.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 838218
United States
12/12/2009 09:24 AM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for
Desperate OP = NWO AL GORE SHILL



Stupid Nazi
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 838672
United Kingdom
12/12/2009 09:25 AM
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Re: The truth about "climategate", why people are duped by the energy lobby conspiracy and how to educate deniers about science and the need for





GLP