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Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception

 
Mission aborted?
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12/07/2009 06:03 PM
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Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Anti abortionists claim that life beings at conception.

I propose that this can not be true because of a simple natural fact...idential twins (or more indential births due to embryo spitting).

If the growing embryo is a complete human then when it spits into twins those two developingembryos would have to be considered the same individual with the same soul.

Clearly twins are individuals with separate souls. Therefore their spirit/soul had to enter the embrionic zygotes at some point in time after conception and after the fertilized egg split, not before or at the time conception.

Otherwise one spirit sould would enter first while the other would have to wait until the orignal fertilized egg splits momemtarily without a sprit/soul giving preferential treatment to one twin soul over the other. That would also mean the second twin was born of the first twin in an asexual process.

Clearly these ideas are not accepted. Therefore the two sould of the twins had to enter after conception and after splitting. When exactly that is I cannot say but it is clear to me that twins prove that human life does not fully begin at conception unless you try to argue that the splitting occurs because two souls are forced into one cell.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:08 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Anti abortionists claim that life beings at conception.

I propose that this can not be true because of a simple natural fact...idential twins (or more indential births due to embryo spitting).

If the growing embryo is a complete human then when it spits into twins those two developingembryos would have to be considered the same individual with the same soul.

Clearly twins are individuals with separate souls. Therefore their spirit/soul had to enter the embrionic zygotes at some point in time after conception and after the fertilized egg split, not before or at the time conception.

Otherwise one spirit sould would enter first while the other would have to wait until the orignal fertilized egg splits momemtarily without a sprit/soul giving preferential treatment to one twin soul over the other. That would also mean the second twin was born of the first twin in an asexual process.

Clearly these ideas are not accepted. Therefore the two sould of the twins had to enter after conception and after splitting. When exactly that is I cannot say but it is clear to me that twins prove that human life does not fully begin at conception unless you try to argue that the splitting occurs because two souls are forced into one cell.
 Quoting: Mission aborted? 826445


God wrote your soul before the foundation of the world.

It is written.

hf
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:08 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
... unless you try to argue that the splitting occurs because two souls are forced into one cell.
 Quoting: Mission aborted? 826445



Interesting idea, OP. I was about to post an alternative idea, which I don't buy myself, and you mentioned it...
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:28 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
I figure its a human when it has a heartbeat and brain activity...the same thing that is used to determine if an adult is alive or dead.
Bluebird

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12/07/2009 06:31 PM

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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.
One of the most important aspects of conspiracy theories is being able to discern when there isn't one.

Oh yeah, like you'd understand anyway.

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?. . .J. Handy
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:34 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
They're still twins after birth. Maybe we should kill them then!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/07/2009 06:36 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.
 Quoting: Bluebird


In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact. This is the basis for the judeao-christan ban on masturbation and birth control. Saying that the same Judeo-Christan people of majority in the west have this option is like telling them they have the option to abortion which in their religious system they have the moral right to none of them no matter the legal status of the actions.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:41 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
I figure its a human when it has a heartbeat and brain activity...the same thing that is used to determine if an adult is alive or dead.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 781210


Yet people have no problem killing, eating, and experimenting on animals who have a heartbeat and brain activity. Life is life!
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:41 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.
 Quoting: Bluebird


+1

hf
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:48 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


+1

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 834867

+1, that means BEFORE pregnancy, not AFTER pregnancy.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:52 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


+1

hf

+1, that means BEFORE pregnancy, not AFTER pregnancy.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 835543


+1 that means before opening your legs, not after.

Women are only fertile 5-6 days per month, at best.

How hard is it to keep your panties on for a few days?

Must we treat females like insipid animals and not educate them on the facts of their own cycles or do we believe that it's easier to murder people than to ask people to regulate their urges and impulses?
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 06:55 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Think about this: a bible verse (help me christians) that says that God knew you and knit you in your mother's womb.
So think about that for a minute. He split the cell...he took care of the soul entering in. It's God that does that...I'm sure that as soon as the cell splits, he enters in the souls...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/07/2009 07:00 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.
 Quoting: Bluebird


Rape victims do not usually have this choice.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 07:01 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Think about this: a bible verse (help me christians) that says that God knew you and knit you in your mother's womb.
So think about that for a minute. He split the cell...he took care of the soul entering in. It's God that does that...I'm sure that as soon as the cell splits, he enters in the souls...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 380667


Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

hf
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 07:03 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


Rape victims do not usually have this choice.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826445


The child created would be a victim also, if you put him/her to death.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 07:04 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


Rape victims do not usually have this choice.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826445

The thread is about "Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception".

Nothing was mentioned about rape.
Please stay on the same page or go home.
DaJavoo

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12/07/2009 07:06 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
You point is very well made, OP. DJthumup

Adam was a lump of clay until God breathed the breath of life into him.

:DJrebelli:
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 07:56 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.

Rape victims do not usually have this choice.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826445

Mental illness, abuse, etc., If it were simple, we wouldn't be agonizing long after the facts of the matter have passed.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 08:00 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
ALL OF YOU HAVE DESTROYED LIFE AND DESERVE TO BE INCARCERATED FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES!!!!

YOU'VE HURT YOURSELF YES?!?! THEN YOU KILLED CELLS!!!LIVING ORGANISMS!!!WHATEVER DID THEY DO TO YOU???

lol fools, and don't go talking about "potential" that's irrelevant.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 08:09 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Anti abortionists claim that life beings at conception.

I propose that this can not be true because of a simple natural fact...idential twins (or more indential births due to embryo spitting).

If the growing embryo is a complete human then when it spits into twins those two developingembryos would have to be considered the same individual with the same soul.

Clearly twins are individuals with separate souls. Therefore their spirit/soul had to enter the embrionic zygotes at some point in time after conception and after the fertilized egg split, not before or at the time conception.

Otherwise one spirit sould would enter first while the other would have to wait until the orignal fertilized egg splits momemtarily without a sprit/soul giving preferential treatment to one twin soul over the other. That would also mean the second twin was born of the first twin in an asexual process.

Clearly these ideas are not accepted. Therefore the two sould of the twins had to enter after conception and after splitting. When exactly that is I cannot say but it is clear to me that twins prove that human life does not fully begin at conception unless you try to argue that the splitting occurs because two souls are forced into one cell.
 Quoting: Mission aborted? 826445


St. Thomas Aquinas postulated that the soul entered the fertilized egg at approximately five days after conception.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 08:16 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact. This is the basis for the judeao-christan ban on masturbation and birth control. Saying that the same Judeo-Christan people of majority in the west have this option is like telling them they have the option to abortion which in their religious system they have the moral right to none of them no matter the legal status of the actions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826445



>>God struck a man named Onnan <<


Where is that - book, chapter and verse?
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 08:19 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Think about this: a bible verse (help me christians) that says that God knew you and knit you in your mother's womb.
So think about that for a minute. He split the cell...he took care of the soul entering in. It's God that does that...I'm sure that as soon as the cell splits, he enters in the souls...


Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 834867


And this:

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 08:23 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
There is in actuality one soul. We are not separate.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 10:34 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact. This is the basis for the judeao-christan ban on masturbation and birth control. Saying that the same Judeo-Christan people of majority in the west have this option is like telling them they have the option to abortion which in their religious system they have the moral right to none of them no matter the legal status of the actions.



>>God struck a man named Onnan <<


Where is that - book, chapter and verse?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 835877


Genesis 38:9
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 10:41 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
ALL OF YOU HAVE DESTROYED LIFE AND DESERVE TO BE INCARCERATED FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES!!!!

YOU'VE HURT YOURSELF YES?!?! THEN YOU KILLED CELLS!!!LIVING ORGANISMS!!!WHATEVER DID THEY DO TO YOU???

lol fools, and don't go talking about "potential" that's irrelevant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 655838

You forget your meds today?
neverfear
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12/07/2009 10:54 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Well OP, I don't know about all your mumbo jumbo, so I'll give it to you from a "Twin"/s perspective.

I call my brother, my "Evil Twin" because I had to share my Mothers womb with an evil entity.

Indeed, my "Evil Twin" is evil!

Yahweh said, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated". He created them both in the womb, one good, one evil!

Any questions?



Oh, and this is for you OP, ----> tomato
9teen.47™

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12/07/2009 10:56 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Anti abortionists claim that life beings at conception.

 Quoting: Mission aborted? 826445


hummbird Life begins before conception. Read this tract carefully. WHO MURDERED CLARICE?...

[link to www.chick.com]

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 12/07/2009 11:00 PM
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Mister ObviousModerator
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12/07/2009 10:58 PM

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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Humans are full of shit...


It's all double standards and justification for their own means and ends.


Selfishness, ect.


The very reason why they're doomed and no one is gonna save them.


grouphug
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12/07/2009 11:01 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
Well, why couldn't two souls be placed in the same cell by God since He would know that cell would split and be two humans?

Anythings possible when it comes to Him.
Anonymous Coward
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12/07/2009 11:02 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact. This is the basis for the judeao-christan ban on masturbation and birth control. Saying that the same Judeo-Christan people of majority in the west have this option is like telling them they have the option to abortion which in their religious system they have the moral right to none of them no matter the legal status of the actions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826445



>>In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact<<

NOT true - he was killed because he was disobeyed a direct order from God.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/07/2009 11:18 PM
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Re: Identical Twins = Why Full Human Spiritual Life with A Soul Does Not Begin At Conception
It either is human life or it isn't.

All human life should be respected or none should be. There can't be grades of humans and only some count and others do not.

Can't have it both ways and many people object to abortion for reasons other than religion. Things like it is barbaric and inflicts horrific pain and suffering.

People who do not want children have the option of preventing it before the fact.


In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact. This is the basis for the judeao-christan ban on masturbation and birth control. Saying that the same Judeo-Christan people of majority in the west have this option is like telling them they have the option to abortion which in their religious system they have the moral right to none of them no matter the legal status of the actions.



>>In the Old Testament God struck a man named Onnan dead for preventing pregnancy during sexual contact<<

NOT true - he was killed because he was disobeyed a direct order from God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 834354



Then birth control and masterbation would not be forbidden by the catholic church and others. This is where they get it from. They take a very literal view.

Your view is a more moderate opinion that does not support previous organized opinions on Onanism.

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