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There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History

 
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 03:36 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
With all due respect to force you to sign the contract negates the contract ... why do they need a contract if they could just force you ?


Exactly correct. This knowledge could very well help yourself or someone you know in the future. That's why I've posted it here.



You will be get a rude awakening if you try pulling this crap in the real world. See what happens if you try avoiding paying property taxes by creating your own county with a group of like minded people. Your land will be seized and you will be thrown in jail.
 Quoting: Redbad


Why would anyone avoid paying property taxes ?

WTF you talking about you herb ?

It might be better to not incur property taxes if you do not want to pay any.

idiot...
Rev-bo
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01/25/2010 03:36 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.
 Quoting: ZTE


Damn, it sure does. I had never heard anything about a fine or imprisonment. Do you know if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted?
Rev. 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/25/2010 03:37 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.
 Quoting: Rev-bo


I know what happened one time.... just once. I've never heard of anyone else trying this. How many have? How many are aware of the possibility? The voices of disbelief here on this thread are a demonstration of this lack of knowledge and the effectiveness of the draft sales pitch. What would be the harm in trying this in a draft circumstance? It might really work. If it didn't and prosecution began one could always change their mind if they were so inclined.

All the draft resistors I've heard of, except this one example I mentioned earlier, failed to make an appearance and went to jail for this. It is the appearance that is important. Nothing more.

Make the appearance.
Do not take the oath.
Do not sign the contract.

IF it is something one does not wish to do.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 03:37 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Damn, it sure does. I had never heard anything about a fine or imprisonment. Do you know if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted?
 Quoting: Rev-bo


One thing for sure is you'll never know if someone wasn't
Redbad

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01/25/2010 03:42 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP your whole premise is wrong. Once and a blue moon people would be let go for doing this by being judged unfit for duty. But by doing exactly what your video suggests you open yourself to criminal prosecution. Many people tried this and ended up imprisoned. Do a little research. Look towards the end of this article.


[link to www.thirdworldtraveler.com]

Last Edited by Redbad on 01/25/2010 03:43 PM
ZTE

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01/25/2010 03:44 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 810358



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.
If you can justify killing one man, you can justify killing every man.

The Greatest Lie is the one never told, but assumed.

History isn't a measure of our successes, but the compilation of our mistakes.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 03:47 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP your whole premise is wrong. Once and a blue moon people would be let go for doing this by being judged unfit for duty. But by doing exactly what your video suggests you open yourself to criminal prosecution. Many people tried this and ended up imprisoned. Do a little research. Look towards the end of this article.


[link to www.thirdworldtraveler.com]
 Quoting: Redbad


If it is open for a criminal investigation than who is teh victim ?
ZTE

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01/25/2010 03:48 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
You can send in that card BUT you can also have restrictions on that card.

When we sent my sons card in, we wrote conscientious objector across the front of it & sent it certified mail, return receipt requested since those kind of card have a tendency to come up missing. We got the return receipt back signed & dated by the person who got it. So its on the record that he is a conscientious objector & will NOT sign up for the military.
 Quoting: mopar28m


Sounds like a good idea to me Mopar, but I'm sure they don't like receiving those types of registrations. My dad was the type of man who made me register the day I turned 18 and mail it in. I don't even know where my draft card is now.
If you can justify killing one man, you can justify killing every man.

The Greatest Lie is the one never told, but assumed.

History isn't a measure of our successes, but the compilation of our mistakes.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 03:48 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.
 Quoting: ZTE


Right so it says nothing about being drafted. Thanks
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 03:51 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
You can send in that card BUT you can also have restrictions on that card.

When we sent my sons card in, we wrote conscientious objector across the front of it & sent it certified mail, return receipt requested since those kind of card have a tendency to come up missing. We got the return receipt back signed & dated by the person who got it. So its on the record that he is a conscientious objector & will NOT sign up for the military.


Sounds like a good idea to me Mopar, but I'm sure they don't like receiving those types of registrations. My dad was the type of man who made me register the day I turned 18 and mail it in. I don't even know where my draft card is now.
 Quoting: ZTE


Why wouldn't they like receiving those types of registrations Mr. Apologist?
Redbad

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01/25/2010 03:52 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.


Right so it says nothing about being drafted. Thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 810358



Research this yourselves. If you went through with the entire process but refused to enlist and take the oath at the end you would be arrested and booked at a police station. Then you would face a trial and imprisonment. Some people were never arrested and just let go because then were judged unfit to serve but it was definitely not a sure fire way to avoid the military.
ZTE

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01/25/2010 03:54 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
You can send in that card BUT you can also have restrictions on that card.

When we sent my sons card in, we wrote conscientious objector across the front of it & sent it certified mail, return receipt requested since those kind of card have a tendency to come up missing. We got the return receipt back signed & dated by the person who got it. So its on the record that he is a conscientious objector & will NOT sign up for the military.


Sounds like a good idea to me Mopar, but I'm sure they don't like receiving those types of registrations. My dad was the type of man who made me register the day I turned 18 and mail it in. I don't even know where my draft card is now.


Why wouldn't they like receiving those types of registrations Mr. Apologist?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 810358



Same reason credit card companies don't like people who pay in cash.
If you can justify killing one man, you can justify killing every man.

The Greatest Lie is the one never told, but assumed.

History isn't a measure of our successes, but the compilation of our mistakes.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 810358
United States
01/25/2010 03:56 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.


Right so it says nothing about being drafted. Thanks



Research this yourselves. If you went through with the entire process but refused to enlist and take the oath at the end you would be arrested and booked at a police station. Then you would face a trial and imprisonment. Some people were never arrested and just let go because then were judged unfit to serve but it was definitely not a sure fire way to avoid the military.
 Quoting: Redbad


"Refused to enlist" .... and "take an oath"

You will not be arrested for not takign the oath.

The oath is also on your voting form, I havne't taken that one either.
Redbad

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01/25/2010 03:57 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.


Right so it says nothing about being drafted. Thanks



Research this yourselves. If you went through with the entire process but refused to enlist and take the oath at the end you would be arrested and booked at a police station. Then you would face a trial and imprisonment. Some people were never arrested and just let go because then were judged unfit to serve but it was definitely not a sure fire way to avoid the military.


"Refused to enlist" .... and "take an oath"

You will not be arrested for not takign the oath.

The oath is also on your voting form, I havne't taken that one either.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 810358



Yes you could be arrested. If you refuse and got away with it you were lucky.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:00 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
You can send in that card BUT you can also have restrictions on that card.

When we sent my sons card in, we wrote conscientious objector across the front of it & sent it certified mail, return receipt requested since those kind of card have a tendency to come up missing. We got the return receipt back signed & dated by the person who got it. So its on the record that he is a conscientious objector & will NOT sign up for the military.


Sounds like a good idea to me Mopar, but I'm sure they don't like receiving those types of registrations. My dad was the type of man who made me register the day I turned 18 and mail it in. I don't even know where my draft card is now.


Why wouldn't they like receiving those types of registrations Mr. Apologist?



Same reason credit card companies don't like people who pay in cash.
 Quoting: ZTE


Wow
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
01/25/2010 04:01 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Thank you. I believe it. Good to know. It's how TPTB work. Deception and intimidation.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:01 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Isn't it against the law to refuse to register for the draft? Therefore, aren't you "forced" to register for the draft, even if you don't get drafted?


I don't think you legally have to register for the draft, but by not signing up, you lose the ability to get a government job or loan, among other things.

To the OP, I don't think I've seen you answer the question of what happens if you show up and refuse to take the oath. If you go to jail as a result, I would call that force. Force isn't necessarily physical violence. The threat of prison can be just as coercive as the threat of a serious ass whoopin'.



Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

* Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
* U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
* Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
* Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.


Sounds like a law to me.


Looks like it says registers ...

Says nothing about being drafted and taking an oath.



Part in Bold number 2 was answering part in bold number 1.

Please learn to read before typing.


Right so it says nothing about being drafted. Thanks



Research this yourselves. If you went through with the entire process but refused to enlist and take the oath at the end you would be arrested and booked at a police station. Then you would face a trial and imprisonment. Some people were never arrested and just let go because then were judged unfit to serve but it was definitely not a sure fire way to avoid the military.


"Refused to enlist" .... and "take an oath"

You will not be arrested for not takign the oath.

The oath is also on your voting form, I havne't taken that one either.



Yes you could be arrested. If you refuse and got away with it you were lucky.
 Quoting: Redbad


Your simply lying and trying to use fear ... you have no evidence one must take a oath by law ..

You can only find evidence you must appear if you agreed to do so ... thatits

The oath is voluntary and upon you.

I can tell you have no appreciation for law, esecially oaths.
Bluebird

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01/25/2010 04:03 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
With all due respect to force you to sign the contract negates the contract ... why do they need a contract if they could just force you ?


Exactly correct. This knowledge could very well help yourself or someone you know in the future. That's why I've posted it here.



You will be get a rude awakening if you try pulling this crap in the real world. See what happens if you try avoiding paying property taxes by creating your own county with a group of like minded people. Your land will be seized and you will be thrown in jail.


But that's good absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution's prohibition on involuntary servitude, now, has it?


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873812



Yes, it has in that this is the same bogus argument that doesn't hold up in the real world.


Quote:

Legal issues
Although the Selective Service System is authorized by the Selective Service Act, the Constitutionality has been disputed over the years.

The act has been challenged in light of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits "involuntary servitude."[26]

This, however, has not been supported by the courts; as the Supreme Court stated in Butler v. Perry (1916):

The amendment was adopted with reference to conditions existing since the foundation of our government, and the term 'involuntary servitude' was intended to cover those forms of compulsory labor akin to African slavery which, in practical operation, would tend to produce like undesirable results. It introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc.[27]
During the First World War, the Supreme Court ruled in Arver v. United States (1918) that draft did not violate the United States Constitution.[28]

Later, during the Vietnam War, a lower appellate court also concluded that the draft was Constitutional in United States v. Holmes (1968).[
One of the most important aspects of conspiracy theories is being able to discern when there isn't one.

Oh yeah, like you'd understand anyway.

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?. . .J. Handy
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:03 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
A forced oath is not an oath ..
Bluebird

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01/25/2010 04:05 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
A forced oath is not an oath ..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 810358



I don't think the oath is the issue. It is your ass they will take away, oath or not. An oath doesn't really matter that much when you are being shot at. I doubt the one shooting is going to stop and ask you if you took the oath or not.
One of the most important aspects of conspiracy theories is being able to discern when there isn't one.

Oh yeah, like you'd understand anyway.

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?. . .J. Handy
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/25/2010 04:06 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP your whole premise is wrong. Once and a blue moon people would be let go for doing this by being judged unfit for duty. But by doing exactly what your video suggests you open yourself to criminal prosecution. Many people tried this and ended up imprisoned. Do a little research. Look towards the end of this article.


[link to www.thirdworldtraveler.com]
 Quoting: Redbad


The link you provided doesn't support your statement. Of all selective service cases prosecuted in 1971 only 34.8% were convictions and only 36% of these went to prison. So, only 13% of all SS cases tried went to jail. This was for all SS cases tried. How many of those tried were for failure to proceed with induction? The author states:

if the government couldn't make the charge of "refusing induction" stick, they were just as happy to nab people on some other charge, such as late registration or failure to report an address change. There have even been cases of people being acquitted of refusing induction, and then being taken back into court on some other charge and convicted.

Couldn't get the "charge of 'refusing induction' to stick"? My guess is not even one stuck. And, if it did, what were the particular circumstances? Those may not be the circumstances of another.

It is the act of stepping forward that constitutes induction. Contrary to popular belief, taking the oath of induction occurs after induction, and refusing to take the oath is punishable under military law, since you are already in the military by that time.

If you plan to refuse induction, you should not step forward when your name is called. Just to make sure that there is no question about it, you should also say out L loud that you refuse induction. There is no danger of anyone pushing you forward or anything like that; it is just that you want to make sure the officials understand what you are doing. Sometimes people in the Army aren't too bright.

If you refuse to take the step forward, an Army officer will probably take you quickly into a private room. After all, they don't want you infecting others with your weird ideas. You will likely be told the penalty for refusing induction is five years in jail and a two hundred fifty thousand dollar fine, that it is a federal felony offense, and that you will be sent to prison if you refuse induction. The Army will do everything in their power to scare you. Then, they will probably offer you another chance to step forward. I am sure we can all appreciate their thoughtfulness.

If you resist their efforts to get you to step forward, they will probably ask you to make or sign a statement that you have willfully refused induction. I strongly recommend that you refuse to make such a statement. If you do give such a statement, it is an admission or confession which can be used against you in a court of law. It is never a good idea to admit that you are guilty of any crime, at least not until you have consulted a lawyer.
After refusing induction you may be arrested. People are usually just told to go home, and that they will be contacted later, but every once in a while a person is actually taken from the induction center to the police station for booking. If you are arrested on the spot, you will probably be let go on your own recognizance after booking, unless the police have reason to think you may not show up, or unless they are in a bad mood. Being released without bail means they think they can trust you to show up for trial. However, just in case the police do decide to hold you, you should arrange for bail ahead of time. It would be a good idea for you to write the phone number of your lawyer, friend or bail bondsman on your arm with a ballpoint pen before induction. That way, even if the police take away your clothing and your wallet (a common booking procedure) you will still have the phone number handy.

p71
What happens after refusal
After induction processing has been completed, all files are returned to the SS. The files of those who have refused induction will be forwarded to the United States Attorney's office, where a decision will be made whether or not the government wants to prosecute. The US Attorney will usually not bring charges unless he feels he can win the case. Even though the US Attorney screens cases pretty thoroughly, it is interesting to note that in the past not all people were convicted, and not all convictions resulted in prison sentences. Of those who were taken to court, well over half were found not guilty. For example, in the fiscal year ended June 30, 1971, there were 2,973 Selective Service cases that got to court. While that was a higher number than in any year since 1945, only 34.8% were convicted, and of those convicted only 36% were sent to prison. So, only about 13% of 1t2 he court cases resulted in a person being sent to prison.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:07 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
A forced oath is not an oath ..



I don't think the oath is the issue. It is your ass they will take away, oath or not. An oath doesn't really matter that much when you are being shot at. I doubt the one shooting is going to stop and ask you if you took the oath or not.
 Quoting: Bluebird


You won't be going over there without taking it.

There is a oath on your voting registration form it is very important you agree to it.
Bluebird

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01/25/2010 04:07 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
The Title of this thread says there has NEVER been forced military conscription in the history of this country but if you google those very words, you will get a few million examples of just that.
One of the most important aspects of conspiracy theories is being able to discern when there isn't one.

Oh yeah, like you'd understand anyway.

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?. . .J. Handy
Bluebird

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01/25/2010 04:11 PM

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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
With all due respect to force you to sign the contract negates the contract ... why do they need a contract if they could just force you ?


Exactly correct. This knowledge could very well help yourself or someone you know in the future. That's why I've posted it here.



You will be get a rude awakening if you try pulling this crap in the real world. See what happens if you try avoiding paying property taxes by creating your own county with a group of like minded people. Your land will be seized and you will be thrown in jail.


But that's good absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution's prohibition on involuntary servitude, now, has it?





Yes, it has in that this is the same bogus argument that doesn't hold up in the real world.


Quote:

Legal issues
Although the Selective Service System is authorized by the Selective Service Act, the Constitutionality has been disputed over the years.

The act has been challenged in light of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits "involuntary servitude."[26]

This, however, has not been supported by the courts; as the Supreme Court stated in Butler v. Perry (1916):

The amendment was adopted with reference to conditions existing since the foundation of our government, and the term 'involuntary servitude' was intended to cover those forms of compulsory labor akin to African slavery which, in practical operation, would tend to produce like undesirable results. It introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc.[27]
During the First World War, the Supreme Court ruled in Arver v. United States (1918) that draft did not violate the United States Constitution.[28]

Later, during the Vietnam War, a lower appellate court also concluded that the draft was Constitutional in United States v. Holmes (1968).[
 Quoting: Bluebird




The SCOTUS has ruled that conscription is legal.

It doesn't matter what the law says right now because there is always a new one written for every time conscription is used to suit that individual time and incident.

As long as the Supreme Court has ruled the concept is legal, the law that addresses the situation at hand will prevail.
One of the most important aspects of conspiracy theories is being able to discern when there isn't one.

Oh yeah, like you'd understand anyway.

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?. . .J. Handy
Anonymous Coward
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
The one thing that depresses me about my fellow americans is that, mostly, they are all defeatists.

I find it amazing that 95% of americans are actaully controlled by fear and what would happen if ... or if ... or if.

This whole second page is full of it. You'll get thrown in jail, they'll beat you up , ...

Quite frankly its amazing ...
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
The supreme court is actually you, the one in DC sits at the behest of the president.

[link to www.law.cornell.edu]

Rule 45. Process; Mandates

•1. All process of this Court issues in the name of the President of the United States.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:16 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Law comes from you the people, individually. Not some court that is titled "Supreme" ...

Thats why you can contract ..

Like ... you can contract to mow my lawn all week .. and if oyu don't I can enforce it in a court.

However, you can't enforce it on all the people cause only you signed the contract, it only applies to you.

Thats why the US Code is copyrighted ... lol
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/25/2010 04:21 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Quote:

Legal issues
Although the Selective Service System is authorized by the Selective Service Act, the Constitutionality has been disputed over the years.

The act has been challenged in light of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits "involuntary servitude."[26]

This, however, has not been supported by the courts; as the Supreme Court stated in Butler v. Perry (1916):

The amendment was adopted with reference to conditions existing since the foundation of our government, and the term 'involuntary servitude' was intended to cover those forms of compulsory labor akin to African slavery which, in practical operation, would tend to produce like undesirable results. It introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc.[27]
During the First World War, the Supreme Court ruled in Arver v. United States (1918) that draft did not violate the United States Constitution.[28]

Later, during the Vietnam War, a lower appellate court also concluded that the draft was Constitutional in United States v. Holmes (1968).[
 Quoting: Bluebird


I agree. The requirement to make an appearance, the draft, is constitutional. It does not violate the 13th amendment. What the Supreme Court has never ruled on is whether the oath and contract may be compelled. I didn't read the specifics of each of the cases you cited but I doubt any of them involved the circumstances to refusing the oath and contract. My guess is such a case will never be granted certiorari by the Supreme Court because the cat would then be forever out of the bag.
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 04:30 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
A Jeep filled with soldiers going from house to house grabbing young men from their homes, jamming a rifle into their hands, and sending them to the front would be a forced military conscription. But, this isn't how the U.S. government has filled the military's ranks during the great wars.

The 13th amendment prohibits involuntary servitude. All military inductions in American history have been voluntary, involving oaths of allegiance and enlistment contracts. During times of drafts the draft notification is a subpoena to make an appearance at an induction center, but it isn't a requirement to become enlisted by signing the enlistment contract and taking the oath of allegiance.

If there is a future draft this would be good information of which to be aware:



 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 867240

Too all the folks being drafted weren't informed of this...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/25/2010 04:47 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Quote:

During the First World War, the Supreme Court ruled in Arver v. United States (1918) that draft did not violate the United States Constitution.[28]
 Quoting: Bluebird


This is from the majority opinion in Arver v. United States

"The proclamation of the President calling the persons designated within the ages described in the statute was made and the plaintiffs in error who were in the class and under the statute were obliged to present themselves for registration and subject themselves to the law failed to do so and were prosecuted under the statute for the penalties for which it provided"

This case was one in which the plaintiffs never presented themselves; they did not respond to the call of the president.

A case in which one appears and refuses oath and contract may be something else entirely. Like I said, I doubt such a case would ever be heard by the court. It remains a claim to be made and tried.

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