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There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 730536
United States
01/25/2010 06:22 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Military for two years or jail for five? Plus up to $250K fine.

It is required by law and a felony to fail to register and once you do that, if found suitable and no exemption granted, you ARE inducted with or without signing or taking the oath.

It is considered your liability to fulfill conscription if drafted to do so. You lose by default.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 730536
United States
01/25/2010 06:25 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Yeah, like all the million or so drafted during Viet Nam era didn't go all over this at the time!

I can assure you if it were so easy, that's what thousands would have done. Instead they had three choices: serve or go to jail or leave the country.

It's pretty egotistical to think someone is going to come along at this late date and find something that wasn't thought of and tried before. Mostly to no avail, I might add.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 873174
Australia
01/25/2010 06:28 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Did you bother to listen to the explanation in the 4 minute youtube video?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 867240


If only the explanation could be put in some form that was more easy to read, such as writing.
ABO

User ID: 869145
Mexico
01/25/2010 06:37 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Yeah, like all the million or so drafted during Viet Nam era didn't go all over this at the time!

I can assure you if it were so easy, that's what thousands would have done. Instead they had three choices: serve or go to jail or leave the country.

It's pretty egotistical to think someone is going to come along at this late date and find something that wasn't thought of and tried before. Mostly to no avail, I might add.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 730536

Goofy Thum
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 06:42 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Yeah, like all the million or so drafted during Viet Nam era didn't go all over this at the time!

I can assure you if it were so easy, that's what thousands would have done. Instead they had three choices: serve or go to jail or leave the country.

It's pretty egotistical to think someone is going to come along at this late date and find something that wasn't thought of and tried before. Mostly to no avail, I might add.

Goofy Thum
 Quoting: ABO


Its pretty egotistical to think you would be aware of it if it was done.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 867240
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01/25/2010 06:47 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
But to fight against the draft assuming the State has no rights over you is naive to the extreme,,,
 Quoting: ABO


Who is talking about fighting the draft or making the argument the state has no power over individuals?

The point is to comply with the requirements of the draft to the letter and no more, if one doesn't wish to to be conscripted. All contracts and oaths are voluntary and cannot be, and are not, compelled by present U.S. law, no not even the Selective Service law. There is nothing naive about this understanding or making a claim to rights even in the face of a threatening coercive state. Some might call it courage.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 80449
United States
01/25/2010 06:52 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP embraces the great American freedom to rot in prison for
demanding rights.

I don't need a fucking youtube video to tell me that I can go to jail for trying to stand up for my most basic human rights and freedoms.

So OP, what is your fucking point?
Nine's
User ID: 791743
United States
01/25/2010 07:15 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
But to fight against the draft assuming the State has no rights over you is naive to the extreme,,,


Who is talking about fighting the draft or making the argument the state has no power over individuals?

The point is to comply with the requirements of the draft to the letter and no more, if one doesn't wish to to be conscripted. All contracts and oaths are voluntary and cannot be, and are not, compelled by present U.S. law, no not even the Selective Service law. There is nothing naive about this understanding or making a claim to rights even in the face of a threatening coercive state. Some might call it courage.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 867240


I really don't mean to nitpick, OP and I admire your intent, but, although oaths may not be compelled by U.S. law, the court will cite you for contempt for refusing to take the oath. So, you can be jailed, not for refusing the oath, but for contempt of court. They have a way around anything.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 867240
United States
01/25/2010 07:44 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
I really don't mean to nitpick, OP and I admire your intent, but, although oaths may not be compelled by U.S. law, the court will cite you for contempt for refusing to take the oath. So, you can be jailed, not for refusing the oath, but for contempt of court. They have a way around anything.
 Quoting: Nine's 791743


With the proper argument in a court room this doesn't have to happen.

George Gordon, the man being interviewed on the youtube video I opened this thread with, received a favorable ruling at the ninth circuit court in Gordon v Idaho on the issue of oaths in a court room. This isn't theory. He has successfully done it!

[link to openjurist.org]

This was a precedent setting case in a federal court. The bottom line is, even in court one cannot be compelled to take an oath. He successfully defended. Others can too.

Gordon has at his site a large audio library.

[link to library.georgegordon.com]

On page 23 there is a program entitled "Contracts - draft registration is a contract". It's about an hour long and well worth listening to. He specifically gets into the issue of the draft contract at 34 minutes into it.... for anyone interested into delving into this any further.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 867240
United States
01/25/2010 08:08 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP embraces the great American freedom to rot in prison for
demanding rights.

I don't need a fucking youtube video to tell me that I can go to jail for trying to stand up for my most basic human rights and freedoms.

So OP, what is your fucking point?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80449


The point is it is still possible to claim rights without going to jail. Specifically, its possible to claim them in a draft induction center, should they appear again, without being sent to jail and without being forced into the military. It has been done in the past and can be done, if circumstances require, in the future.

Military service, even when it appears to be compelled by a draft, is voluntary. One may not realize they are volunteering in a draft, but they are. There is an alternative to the Selective Service. DON"T VOLUNTEER

That's the point.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 791743
United States
01/25/2010 08:24 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
I really don't mean to nitpick, OP and I admire your intent, but, although oaths may not be compelled by U.S. law, the court will cite you for contempt for refusing to take the oath. So, you can be jailed, not for refusing the oath, but for contempt of court. They have a way around anything.


With the proper argument in a court room this doesn't have to happen.

George Gordon, the man being interviewed on the youtube video I opened this thread with, received a favorable ruling at the ninth circuit court in Gordon v Idaho on the issue of oaths in a court room. This isn't theory. He has successfully done it!

[link to openjurist.org]

This was a precedent setting case in a federal court. The bottom line is, even in court one cannot be compelled to take an oath. He successfully defended. Others can too.

Gordon has at his site a large audio library.

[link to library.georgegordon.com]

On page 23 there is a program entitled "Contracts - draft registration is a contract". It's about an hour long and well worth listening to. He specifically gets into the issue of the draft contract at 34 minutes into it.... for anyone interested into delving into this any further.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 867240


This case isn't about refusing the oath in a court of law. It's about refusing certain words in the oath based on a religious conviction. It is more focused on the religious aspect, rather than a refusal. For example:

"The court abused its discretion in insisting that Gordon use either the word "swear" or "affirm" in light of Gordon's sincere religious objections.2"

It then goes on to say:
Fed.R.Civ.P. 30(c) requires that deponents be placed under oath, and Fed.R.Civ.P. 43(d) allows the substitution of a "solemn affirmation" in lieu of an oath. We have found no authority insisting on the use of the word "affirm" in such alternative affirmations.


They will cite you for contempt if you refuse. Don't ask me how I know. And no, I wasn't on trial. tounge
Scott Kohlhaas
User ID: 876953
United States
01/29/2010 02:45 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
During WWII in IL a group of men went out to arrest a draft resister and killed his father. But we don't know if they were in a jeep or not!
Please visit www.draftresistance.org for more on conscription.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 876580
United States
01/29/2010 07:34 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP---How young were you during Vietnam? Obviously, too young to remember they made an example of Cassius Clay (aka Mohammed Ali). There were reasons the draft dodgers went to Canada and it wasn't the sunny beaches.
Ricfly52

User ID: 709239
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01/29/2010 07:38 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP, dude I was drafted in 1971. It was either go, or go to jail.

I understand your concept, but in my eyes it is bullshit!
Fishing and skiing keeps me a little sane.
itdincor

User ID: 588013
United States
01/30/2010 08:19 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
In 1942, my father said he had no problems with Germany, and he'd pick up his 30-06 when the Japanese landed on the Oregon coast. He ignored his draft notice.

A jeep with two MPs came and got him. They didn't actually point weapons at him, but by all his siblings' accounts it was intimated the MPs would if he refused.

So he went, fought well (155mm artillery), came back.

If it is true that he was not required to take the oath, nobody told him.

Anyway, seems there was not so much choice in 1942.

hayseed
Reality Is B.S

User ID: 877928
United States
01/30/2010 08:33 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
I didn't waste time with all this shit and registered as a consiencious objector.
Throwing more erroneous useless information into the original arguement.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 867240
United States
01/30/2010 09:42 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
In 1942, my father said he had no problems with Germany, and he'd pick up his 30-06 when the Japanese landed on the Oregon coast. He ignored his draft notice.

A jeep with two MPs came and got him. They didn't actually point weapons at him, but by all his siblings' accounts it was intimated the MPs would if he refused.

So he went, fought well (155mm artillery), came back.

If it is true that he was not required to take the oath, nobody told him.

Anyway, seems there was not so much choice in 1942.

hayseed
 Quoting: itdincor


The error your father made was not appearing at the induction center. The draft law require this. It's like a subpoena for court and can't just be ignored without, as your father discovered, consequences.

The agents of the state are going to give away the secret? Why would they?

If the oath and contract (volunteering) aren't necessary why wouldn't a soldier be sent to the front to fight without them? I would like to hear one example, JUST ONE, of someone being inducted into the military and sent to fight without having taken the oath and sign the enlistment contract. Anyone??????

That's what I thought. It doesn't happen in this country. And, my guess is, it never will. Military service here has always been voluntary. Most just don't have the knowledge or the courage not to volunteer.

I can see that most who have posted on this thread aren't ready for this information. Fine. If for some reason there is another draft in this country and you know of someone who doesn't want to go, say nothing. If it you who doesn't want to go give no thought to the information in this thread. Do what you're told: step forward, raise your right hand, repeat the oath, sign all the papers pushed across the desk at you, and keep telling yourself you're being forced to do this, you have no choice, you're not volunteering, your signature each time you make it at the bottom of each page is not prima facie evidence you're entering a contract freely and of your own volition.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 867240
United States
01/30/2010 09:59 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
OP---How young were you during Vietnam? Obviously, too young to remember they made an example of Cassius Clay (aka Mohammed Ali). There were reasons the draft dodgers went to Canada and it wasn't the sunny beaches.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876580


Clay's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court.

Defense against a bully state is not at the ballot box but a few small square feet of courtroom floor (It's instructive we were never taught in public school how to do this). Clay is an example of this. He could have timidly and quietly gone into the night, run to Canada, plea bargained or plead guilty to draft evasion, but he didn't. He stood up to the state in a courtroom and won.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 877966
Canada
01/30/2010 10:03 AM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
A Jeep filled with soldiers going from house to house grabbing young men from their homes, jamming a rifle into their hands, and sending them to the front would be a forced military conscription. But, this isn't how the U.S. government has filled the military's ranks during the great wars.

The 13th amendment prohibits involuntary servitude. All military inductions in American history have been voluntary, involving oaths of allegiance and enlistment contracts. During times of drafts the draft notification is a subpoena to make an appearance at an induction center, but it isn't a requirement to become enlisted by signing the enlistment contract and taking the oath of allegiance.

If there is a future draft this would be good information of which to be aware:





Yes there was forced military conscription in America. You could be sent to jail for ignoring your draft order. That is not voluntary. Idiot.
 Quoting: Redbad



+1
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 11:52 PM
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Re: There has NEVER been forced military conscription in U.S. History
Until now!

H.R.748 - To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 25 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or as civilian service in a Federal, State, or local government program or with a community-based agency or community-based entity, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, to provide for the registration of women under the Military Selective Service Act, and for other purposes.

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