Brain Scans To Predict a Broken Promise? Scientific American....

This reminds me of the movie where they arrest people before they commit a future crime. (Can't remember the title).
Neat, but a little unsettling.
~

Minority Report
Looked it up especially for ye nice folks. Ya'll take care now, y'ear?

Minority Report
Looked it up especially for ye nice folks. Ya'll take care now, y'ear?

thanks... it's got Tom Cruise in it , which explains why i haven't seen it

Neat, but a little unsettling.
~

EXACTLY how i felt.. i found it fascinating,but more than a bit creepy.

Neat, but a little unsettling.
~

EXACTLY how i felt.. i found it fascinating,but more than a bit creepy.


One of the things that bothers me is if something like this was to be put in place/ utilised is that the 'results' could be manipulated to reflect deception, where there is none. The way it was conducted attests to that:

However, such findings should be treated with caution, because the participants of most of these studies were instructed to tell a falsehood without having a choice about whether or not to do so. In the Baumgartner et al study, the researchers observed people doing what came naturally to them in a social interaction – and for about half, the experiment was enough to elicit deceptive behavior.

Definitely an interesting find FF- I'm interested to see if and how it'll be used...and...'creepy' was actually the first word that came to my mind when I read this (lol).

~

Neat, but a little unsettling.
~

EXACTLY how i felt.. i found it fascinating,but more than a bit creepy.


One of the things that bothers me is if something like this was to be put in place/ utilised is that the 'results' could be manipulated to reflect deception, where there is none. The way it was conducted attests to that:

However, such findings should be treated with caution, because the participants of most of these studies were instructed to tell a falsehood without having a choice about whether or not to do so. In the Baumgartner et al study, the researchers observed people doing what came naturally to them in a social interaction – and for about half, the experiment was enough to elicit deceptive behavior.

Definitely an interesting find FF- I'm interested to see if and how it'll be used...and...'creepy' was actually the first word that came to my mind when I read this (lol).

~

Minority Report
Looked it up especially for ye nice folks. Ya'll take care now, y'ear?

thanks... it's got Tom Cruise in it , which explains why i haven't seen it

One of the things that bothers me is if something like this was to be put in place/ utilised is that the 'results' could be manipulated to reflect deception, where there is none. The way it was conducted attests to that...

~

i agree, i could see studies like this being used to try and predict the outcome of a particular individual...Human behavior is such a complex mix of subtle influences, instinct tempered with emotional awareness of what is "accepted" by any particular society.. One thing humans consistently ARE is unpredictable imo..we so often throw logic out the window on emotional whims..
it will interesting to see the furtherance of studies like this... But i am repelled by the idea that we could possibly use them as tool with which to put each of us into labeled categories...

One of the things that bothers me is if something like this was to be put in place/ utilised is that the 'results' could be manipulated to reflect deception, where there is none. The way it was conducted attests to that...

~

i agree, i could see studies like this being used to try and predict the outcome of a particular individual...Human behavior is such a complex mix of subtle influences, instinct tempered with emotional awareness of what is "accepted" by any particular society.. One thing humans consistently ARE is unpredictable imo..we so often throw logic out the window on emotional whims..
it will interesting to see the furtherance of studies like this... But i am repelled by the idea that we could possibly use them as tool with which to put each of us into labeled categories...


You and me both...the purposeful misuse (and misguided use) of this technology (like most others)... it's not like it would be a surprise. To quote SATAN: "oh the irony".
I can see it taken to extremes, where one of the categories might well be under the label 'exterminate'.

btw- thanks for the name of the movie- would have bugged me all day:)- T. Cruise, yeah- no wonder I forgot..;).

~

You and me both...the purposeful misuse (and misguided use) of this technology (like most others)... it's not like it would be a surprise. To quote SATAN: "oh the irony".
I can see it taken to extremes, where one of the categories might well be under the label 'exterminate'.

~

something that is truly frightening to me is that we can already see it being envisioned and know it would not end as intended, not matter how well intentioned the orginal purpose.
Great point you bring up, this sort of testing could someday be used to label the "misfits" ( of whatever definition)and eliminate them... so to me i guess it begs the question , at what point does science becomes a noose and not a tool? Should we not do these sorts of test because they could be so easily corrupted and skewed into almost any agenda? At what point does our "need to know" endanger ourselves?
I'm of an incredibly mixed opinion here...

You and me both...the purposeful misuse (and misguided use) of this technology (like most others)... it's not like it would be a surprise. To quote SATAN: "oh the irony".
I can see it taken to extremes, where one of the categories might well be under the label 'exterminate'.

~

something that is truly frightening to me is that we can already see it being envisioned and know it would not end as intended, not matter how well intentioned the orginal purpose.
Great point you bring up, this sort of testing could someday be used to label the "misfits" ( of whatever definition)and eliminate them... so to me i guess it begs the question , at what point does science becomes a noose and not a tool? Should we not do these sorts of test because they could be so easily corrupted and skewed into almost any agenda? At what point does our "need to know" endanger ourselves?
I'm of an incredibly mixed opinion here...


Again- I'm in total agreement, and as I might be considered a 'misfit' myself (lol) I'd be on 'the list' for sure...

"at what point does science becomes a noose and not a tool?"
Indeed.

"At what point does our "need to know" endanger ourselves?"
as in "I am become death". Mixed opinions- seconded!!

Knowledge alone is dangerous... without wisdom/ responsibility, we face our undoing- yet again. And how many times must this lesson be repeated?

For all of history opportunities have presented- individuals play and evolve, even to the point where civilisations evolve- yet never enough to evolve the 'game itself'...sigh is right...Big Sigh.

What exactly will it take for humanity to level up, I wonder?
~

I'm really enjoying your thoughts on this, you are so incredibly well spoken that i am almost tounge tied :-)

i think yours is a true question for the ages, what will it take for humanity to leap again - can we ever manage to free ourselves of the bonds that tie us into the pattern or are we simply doomed to rise and fall until we actually extinguish ourselves forever?

I'm really enjoying your thoughts on this, you are so incredibly well spoken that i am almost tounge tied :-)

i think yours is a true question for the ages, what will it take for humanity to leap again - can we ever manage to free ourselves of the bonds that tie us into the pattern or are we simply doomed to rise and fall until we actually extinguish ourselves forever?


Right back at ya!
Now, if only WE could rule the world... we'd have a majority of things solved by dinnertime.
We could use the 'brain-scanning' thingy to weed out the undesirables...
Oh...right...we were against that...;)

Back to the question-

"what will it take for humanity to leap again - can we ever manage to free ourselves of the bonds that tie us into the pattern or are we simply doomed to rise and fall until we actually extinguish ourselves forever?"

These 'bonds' that tie- why is it that you and I have this awareness yet most do not? and why not? Frustrating.
I'm loathe to perish along with them because of it-
I refuse.
I was watching Kingdom of Heaven some weeks ago when it occurred to me that nothing changes except for the players, date and location.
It doesn't seem to matter how many wars are fought, how many tragedies, calamities, catastrophes...in short how many opportunities people are given to chant the 'we shall never forget' mantra... they do for the most part forget, and so history repeats.
Maybe that's the problem- short term memory.
Do they have a machine for fixing that?
:)

~
people forget- and so it repeats

Maybe that's the problem- short term memory.

~
people forget- and so it repeats


you made me think of two quotes i came across not too long ago...

The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Friedrich Hegel

The charm of history and its enigmatic lesson consist in the fact that, from age to age, nothing changes and yet everything is completely different ~Aldous Huxley


These are the sorts of things i used to lie awake and wonder over before i found GLP...

People who see/sense the futility of once again following the past dances steps MAY be rare but i think we are growing in number, maybe THAT is what it will take? perhaps it will be a slow awakening that leads us into the next evolution of humanity?

I hope something tips the pendulum before we lose our footing altogether.

Love the quotes...but alas they reinforce that nothing has changed...
I do agree- numbers are growing...I fear not fast enough...but perhaps, just enough.
And- I like the way you phrased that. I hope so too. Despite my frustration at times I remain ever hopeful- the eternal optimist, if you will.

Like you, I've spent long hours pondering...observing, questioning, seeking, connecting- and long before I knew glp existed-

Gotta go for now, but it's been very good sharing with you- I hope to again, and soon. This thread alone has stirred up many thoughts- thank you, Faux Fodder (I like it)

~

they do reinforce that thus far nothing has changed, but in order to really change a thing, one has to first acknowledge it actually exists and want things to be different than they are at that moment.... so maybe as more eyes open to the fact that we have been caught in a loop, then things will begin to change. Who knows, we might be even the ones that finally get it right after all..

Pre-Glp i think i was still too young and mired into my own little dramas to see the human one unfolding right before my eyes...but i've always been a questioner, one who had to know things, my mom still talks bout me driving her crazy with endless whys & hows ....I still ask a million questions a day, only now i get to have some of those questions answered and be given ever more.

Someone brilliantly expressed it in chat- following breadcrumbs while being led further and further down the trail in hopes of finding the loaf.
i'm probably the perfect example of one of one that needs too much knowledge without the wisdom to know what to do with it...
Thank you!
really enjoyed talking to you as well and will look forward to the next conversation, you have quite a way of breaking a topic down

they do reinforce that thus far nothing has changed, but in order to really change a thing, one has to first acknowledge it actually exists and want things to be different than they are at that moment.... so maybe as more eyes open to the fact that we have been caught in a loop, then things will begin to change. Who knows, we might be even the ones that finally get it right after all..

Pre-Glp i think i was still too young and mired into my own little dramas to see the human one unfolding right before my eyes...but i've always been a questioner, one who had to know things, my mom still talks bout me driving her crazy with endless whys & hows ....I still ask a million questions a day, only now i get to have some of those questions answered and be given ever more.

Someone brilliantly expressed it in chat- following breadcrumbs while being led further and further down the trail in hopes of finding the loaf.
i'm probably the perfect example of one of one that needs too much knowledge without the wisdom to know what to do with it...
Thank you!
really enjoyed talking to you as well and will look forward to the next conversation, you have quite a way of breaking a topic down


Hey TFF! Your moniker is certainly apt- 'food for thought', as it were:).
You've brought up a lot of interesting points:

Acknowledgement- definitely- becoming aware, taking the blinders off and seeing the bigger picture.
It begins with self of course, and radiates outward- many believe (hope) it's the other way 'round so they do not have to take action or responsibility...

We're all pebbles in the pond, affecting each other, the waves they create, affecting change on distant shores, however greatly or slightly depending on how much of a splash we choose to make.


I think you put that well, until one sees something for themselves[ and understands how it related to them,how those ripples will touch them, the interconnection of our lives/i], they will not see, not matter how many times it is shown to them or spoken of with them.
So have we defined another part of the key to beginning that "level up"?
If so the that is reassuring because i think more feel things of a similar to what we've spoken of now than at any other known point in our history :-)


Understanding this is what we as a 'species' need in order to change the dynamic/ direction- more so, in order to survive. We are at a critical point, I feel- but like you, I also feel We are the difference, or at very least- the catalysts.
Again there are so many who feel uneasy in these times, who sense something (pretty much) indefinable to them, something coming into the path of humanity that will change us in some way.
It may be the optimist in me that see s this as a good thing [/
In my darker moments i entertain the idea that we, thankfully, for all our lessor traits, have a tenacious spirit, we are resilient and could come back from most events as a species.If not enlightened at least somewhat intact to give it another try.

Seeker and Questioner- it shows, and well TFF.
And the old adage- The more I learn, the more I realise how much I don't know'- may be daunting to some, but not me- apparently not you either...a stubborn lot we are:)- never satisfied until I've gotten to the root of something- then the seed of that- then the origins of the seed- then the origins of the origin...LOL!!!

i drive myself nuts with things until it makes sense to me, and even if i try to put a topic away,it nags at me until i find some way of making it fit with what i know,. Which in itself explains how i ended up on this board :-)
I'm the kind of person who searches and topics words you wouldn't thing go together, for fun

Heady work...:) but most compelling, and most enjoyable!
My question to this (yes, I even question that-lol!) is where is it all to be applied? This too, I feel (know) will reveal itself in time:).
I like the breadcrumbs/ loaf analogy- my problem is that I then have the tendency to break down the loaf;)... LOL! to gain the knowledge and understanding of a thing 'complete', and thereby Wisdom.

again i agree with you - i know there is a purpose to my need to learn,
When i try to think about this one, my mind goes into soo many directions.

Will what i learn ever really be of a practical value to me? For a lot of things i would probably have to say no, but nonetheless am fascinated by the subjects and drawn into educating myself.So i think education, whether formal or self-found ,must have an inherent value all it own.Is it possible the act of learning is more or at least as important than what one learns?


Having pondered over the subject of your post, this brain scanner is imo another piece of the bigger puzzle- another step- towards unlocking the secrets of the incredible power of the human mind/ brain/ processor....and the potentials therein.


i will reluctantly agree with you here.While i can easily envision the tech being misused at some date, it isn't that day yet so i hold out hope that we will get it right and think the value at this time outweighs the risks.
I also have to say that i feel in my bones that a true understanding of our humanity will not come in a laboratory.We might some day understand the physiological functions of our bodies, but the capacity of being able to fully grasp the nuances of our souls is beyond human, at least until we do hit a few of those "level-ups" imo..

Thank you- and most appreciatively!
It is a rare pleasure and joy that our paths have crossed in this manner and at this time.
~

We're all pebbles in the pond, affecting each other... greatly or slightly depending on how much of a splash we choose to make.


,,,until one sees something for themselves[ and understands how it related to them,how those ripples will touch them, the interconnection of our lives/i], they will not see, not matter how many times it is shown to them or spoken of with them.

'For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is enough.'
Ain't that the truth? :)

So have we defined another part of the key to beginning that "level up"?

Another part- yes! I know so. The difficult and frustrating part is in sharing/ communicating this knowledge, and finding others who 'get it', are ready for it/ open to it, or think in those terms.
I realise everyone is on their own path- at different 'levels' of understanding (based on the requirements of that path), but I also feel our survival/ evolution depends on it, and that sadly (perhaps not so sadly?) not all will make it...a hard and sobering fact, evidenced by nature, evidenced by h and history, and life...
but the ones who do...!!

If so the that is reassuring because i think more feel things of a similar to what we've spoken of now than at any other known point in our history :-)

Yes, reassuring- more seem to be progressing towards 'enlightenment'- lol- for lack of a better term, and thank goodness for the internet (a most timely and necessary tool, not only to facilitate and expedite the process, but to quickly locate others of the same 'ken').
Hardly coincidental.
(btw- have you read or heard of Gregg Braden? I'll be happy to share some of what I've gleaned from his material if not...if so- what do you think of his work?)

Understanding this is what we as a 'species' need in order to change the dynamic/ direction- more so, in order to survive. We are at a critical point, I feel- but like you, I also feel We are the difference, or at very least- the catalysts.

something coming into the path of humanity that will change us in some way.
It may be the optimist in me that see s this as a good thing [/

I feel this too- that it is a good thing- to evolve- to step forward and level up ie. advance beyond the confines of the 'cave mentality'.

for all our lessor traits, have a tenacious spirit, we are resilient and could come back from most events as a species.If not enlightened at least somewhat intact to give it another try.

This is likely- there are always survivors who begin at square one, and the cycle repeats...but this is where my path would have to (for myself) diverge. I can't fathom starting over- and perhaps I should be cautious not to give too much energy or thought to this line of thinking, or I will indeed end up being the one chiseling 'wisdoms and warnings' for future generations onto some rock...Lol!!


i drive myself nuts with things until it makes sense to me, and even if i try to put a topic away,it nags at me until i find some way of making it fit with what i know,. Which in itself explains how i ended up on this board :-)
I'm the kind of person who searches and topics words you wouldn't thing go together, for fun

That's hilarious!! and interesting- I do the same exact thing!!


again i agree with you - i know there is a purpose to my need to learn,
Agreed- nothing we do is wasted- somewhere along the way it ties in, or is at least a step on the path.

When i try to think about this one, my mind goes into soo many directions.

THIS is precisely what sets YOU apart from many others- you are what I would term (but not limit to) a 'broad cognitive phenom'- that you are capable of seeking, absorbing, processing, understanding on many and diverse levels. Awesome. I'm sooo pleased to meet you!:)


Will what i learn ever really be of a practical value to me? For a lot of things i would probably have to say no, but nonetheless am fascinated by the subjects and drawn into educating myself.So i think education, whether formal or self-found ,must have an inherent value all it own.Is it possible the act of learning is more or at least as important than what one learns?

Absolutely brilliant statement. (Mind if I use it?)
I'll be absorbing this for days! Thank YOU!

Having pondered over this brain scanner....and the potentials therein.


i will reluctantly agree with you here.While i can easily envision the tech being misused at some date, it isn't that day yet so i hold out hope that we will get it right and think the value at this time outweighs the risks.
I also have to say that i feel in my bones that a true understanding of our humanity will not come in a laboratory.We might some day understand the physiological functions of our bodies, but the capacity of being able to fully grasp the nuances of our souls is beyond human, at least until we do hit a few of those "level-ups" imo..

I'm glad you made this statement- Absolutely.
(I understand your reluctance- having left out this crucial piece- it is nevertheless what I embrace.
My fingers often don't keep up with my mind, or I neglect to state what- to me- is already understood, or I forget I may be addressing a wider audience. Apologies:)


nice to wander the maze together to the end!
VERY NICE! Would you care to explore some more? I'm game if you are...
I came across a news article this morning, that relates to the brain- will add as a new post after this.

I imagine you could be a fearsome debater
you've been very nice and very patient with me and my wandering thoughts,
you are amazingly dexterous in mind and word :-) )

My exact thoughts, about You!

Patient presumed vegetative communicates via brain scan: study


Wed Feb 3, 5:04 PM

BRUSSELS (AFP) - A man who had been presumed to be in a vegetative state for five years, can communicate yes and no via his thought patterns, according to a study published Wednesday.

In 2003, the man, who is now 29, sustained a severe traumatic brain injury in a road traffic accident. He remained physically unresponsive and was presumed to be in a vegetative state for five years, according to the researchers in Belgium and Britain.

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), the patient's brain activity was mapped while he was asked to answer yes and no questions such as "Is your father's name Thomas?" according to the study results published in the authoritative New England Journal of Medicine.

"We were astonished when we saw the results of the patient's scan. He was able to correctly answer the questions that were asked by simply changing his thoughts, which we then decoded using our fMRI technique," explained Dr Adrian Owen who headed the team from the Wolfson Brain Imaging Centre in Cambridge, England.

The new technique can decode the brain's answers to such questions in healthy, non-vegetative, participants with 100 percent accuracy. But it has never before been tried in a patient who cannot move or speak.

In a three-year study, 23 patients diagnosed as vegetative were scanned in Cambridge and Liege. The new technique was able to detect signs of awareness in four of these cases.

However the researchers only managed to communicate, in the yes, no fashion, with one of the patients.

"It's early days, but in future we hope to develop this technique to allow some patients to express their feelings and thoughts, control their environment and increase their quality of life," said Dr Steven Laureys of Liege university, who leads the Belgium team.

"For example, patients who are aware, but cannot move or speak, could be asked if they are feeling any pain, allowing doctors to decide when painkillers should be administered," said Liege neuropsychologist Audrey Vanhaudenhuyse.

"This is far-reaching research," Laureys told AFP, while stressing that wider research and more tests on the unresponsive patients was required.

"Now we need to sit down with the multi-disciplinary medical community and legal experts to consider what we are going to do with this," new information which could have ramifications for such areas as assisted suicide.

The findings recall another case involving Dr Laureys which came to light in November.

Rom Houben, a Belgian man who was wrongly diagnosed as comatose for 23 years, is now planning to write a book about his extraordinary story, after Laureys rescued him from isolation.

Since 2006, when his true condition was correctly diagnosed, Houben has regained enough coordination to allow him to use a finger, when aided, to tap out messages on a special computer keyboard.
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