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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Levi Philos

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09/16/2011 12:03 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I'm going to be monitoring the Lew Rockwell blog; can't miss stuff like this:

Paul Krugman calls Ron Paul a liar
Posted by Bill Anderson on September 16, 2011 09:25 AM

In his latest column, Paul Krugman attacks Ron Paul and I answer his accusations on my own blog, Krugman-in-Wonderland.

[link to www.lewrockwell.com]
Levi Philos

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09/17/2011 01:15 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Statism is Slavery from Mike Shanklin (heavy influence from Molyneux) [link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

Levi Philos

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09/19/2011 08:40 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Patrick Chkoreff writes:

It occurred to me that the very first version of Loom was deployed six years ago today, on 17 Sep 2005. It continues to serve its purpose.
 Quoting: Chkoreff


Graham Kelly replies on Sun Sep 18


Loom is brilliant. I was one of the first real clients. As soon as I saw it, it occurred to me that it could form the software basis for GoldNowBanc. It eventually did, and my customers and I don't have a single regret.

Security wise, it was and is light years ahead of the pack.

Congratulations PC.

GK
 Quoting: Kelly
Levi Philos

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09/19/2011 08:48 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
If you click on Coin Base Episode EP002 here: [link to agoristradio.com]

You can discover links to several alternatives that are foundering and on the verge of collapse.

Creating and spreading an alternative to the current model is more difficult than generally imagined.

Personality conflicts among the developers is just one of the factors.

That the available market seems limited to gamblers and purchases of porn seems to this writer to be a failure of good marketing strategy.

One of the links in the EP002 page goes to a forum with many pages of discussion.

Try to learn from the failures of others; you cannot possibly make them all yourself.
Levi Philos

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09/19/2011 08:57 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Al Adask has some clues: [link to adask.wordpress.com]

He had the anti-shyster news site for years; the link above has a nicer layout.

You might try: Debt Instruments are More Valuable than Debts to get the flavor of his writing.

Adask knows a lot about strawman theology and associated strategies.
Levi Philos

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09/19/2011 10:05 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Financing Public Utilities using Gesellian economics

This proposal is a variation on the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey system of currency issuance which was loosely based upon the pound sterling but not redeemable in silver. The notes were accepted in remission for taxes and are often sited in arguments that say basically that if the currency is acceptable for taxes; that alone will be enough to assure validity.

 An entirely different way of looking at financing public utilities. In this post, public utilities are more than just energy supplies and include streets, bridges, libraries, schools or any other large public project.

When a group of people in a region recognize a publicly shared need and a solution is agreed upon; the present system creates bonds (government bonds are promissory notes drawn against the government's ability to collect taxes) and these bonds are sold to persons who have "savings."

However, consider that all the ideas and all the work and all the materials are supplied by the people. All the financier has done is supply pieces of paper enabling the work to proceed. Try thinking of these pieces of paper as permission slips. The people had the idea, the plan, the labor, and the materials, but they needed to wait for the financial system to give them permission to proceed. The hypothecated debt instrument becomes a debt to the people and a credit to the financier.

Shouldn't the completed public utility become owned as a credit to the people?

Now, consider an answer supplied by using demurrage to retire the circulation over time, rather than taxation. In this model, the new money is printed and used to pay for the construction of the public utility. Over time, the utility ages as entropy sets in and the created "permission slips" are retired as entropy is expressed in the symbol system we call money.

Somehow seems simpler to administer than the present system of taxation. Just use point of payment technology already used to run sales taxes to extract a demurrage charge on the circulating currency.
gembouncer
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09/20/2011 09:21 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Let us be clear here:

1: FR Notes, are the true pyramid scheme, only a lawyer could be devious and/or stupid enough to say otherwise, and

2: "Duty bound" is the opposite of "honor bound" because those who accept a paycheck and do ill deeds based on "duty", have no honor. Honor comes from refusing to one's duty, when that duty is criminal. "I was just following orders to steal property" is the same as "I was duty bound to steal property"

3: Secret service? Secrect proceedings? Is this America? Of course we know it is not, but to convince these two parties named in this piece, that they are anti-American, would not work. So essentially, all this is just masturbatory, because when something is labelled "contraband" by the lawyers-in-office, then the jackboot secret server dudes, have no choice but to obey their duty. It's all done via the magics of paychecks! Really, is anything more tangible or real, than a paycheck from a sufficiently armed and thuggish authority? No, such a paycheck may as well be a bucket of gold coins. So to speak.

[Quote snipped to comply with draconian Internet quoting laws and so forth...]

[link to www.coinworld.com]

Liberty Dollars may be subject to seizure
Federal officials call medallic pieces ‘contraband’

By Paul Gilkes Coin World Staff | Aug. 29, 2011 7:46 a.m.
Article first published in 2011-09-12, U.S. Collectibles section of Coin World

[...]

Statements by officials for those two federal law enforcement agencies seem to reverse the position taken in comments released from the United States Attorney’s Office in Charlotte, N.C., and published in Coin World in April, that mere possession of Liberty Dollars did not constitute a violation of any federal statute.

That position has apparently changed, although officials of the U.S. Secret Service — which would be the federal agency likely charged with executing any possible seizures — would not provide any definitive comments concerning under what circumstances Liberty Dollars would be seized.

The revised stance is tied to the Liberty Dollar being determined in a federal court to violate federal counterfeiting statutes. Liberty Dollars, metallic medallic pieces, were privately promoted as a form of currency that could be used in commerce as an alternative to Federal Reserve notes.

U.S. Attorney’s Office

Jill Rose, chief of the criminal division for the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Charlotte, N.C., told Coin World Aug. 24 that the Liberty Dollar medallions are confiscable as contraband regardless if they are being exhibited for educational purposes only.

Rose served as lead prosecutor in the Bernard von NotHaus case. Von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollars, was convicted in federal court in March on multiple charges involving the alternative currency.

Rose said because von NotHaus’ conviction included violations of Sections 485 and 486 of Title 18 of the United States Code, the Liberty Dollar medallions were determined to be counterfeits, contraband and subject to seizure.

The Liberty Dollar represented “a pyramid scheme imbedded with fraud” that had nothing to do with barter or trade, according to Rose.

“Barter is an equal and knowing exchange,” which the Liberty Dollar was proven in court not to be, Rose said.

U.S. Secret Service

Also on Aug. 24, in addition to speaking with Rose, Coin World talked separately with Glen Kessler, assistant special agent in charge in North Carolina for the U.S. Secret Service.

[...]

He said if a Secret Service agent witnessed something considered to be contraband, such as Liberty Dollars, they would be duty-bound to confiscate it.
 Quoting:
Dru you feel me?
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09/21/2011 08:59 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
[link to www.coinworld.com]

"metallic medallic pieces, [...] that could be used in commerce as an alternative to Federal Reserve notes.
 Quoting:


Now how many of you feel you would be able to hide or defend your gold and silver and gems and alternate currency, against the secret service and the 1 million members of the DOD?

Back in FDRs day he only managed to steal maybe 50% of the gold in the US and probably considerably less than that. Still the biggest thief of his day, and he also used treasury employees to accomplish his theft.

But today, there are much more subtle/obtuse ways to pry those shiny metallic medallic pieces from your grasping little plebe hands. You have to know it will happen. Not because the authority will need any more gold, but because they are DUTY BOUND to stop your efforts to wreck their "real" money, by using your weird 'metallic medallics'.

Its not like they like the idea of approaching your home with weapons cocked like a no-knock raid. Well, they do, but that's beside the point. Really, they just have to defend their paycheck, which is denominated in FRNs, so you see it is simple self preservation for them to seize your metallics and also anything that can be used as currency or which is labelled contraband like booze, gems, unauthorized computer gear, etc.

Sorry but you know, we cannot allow internal competition to the Federal Reserve Note. We run our nation on debt, and pay our enforcers in paychecks denominated in that debt.

Ah but I hear you may qualify for a superior exchange rate for your contraband if you sign up for fiduciary-military service. And well, after the gold and silver is taken, you might be a partisan so we will have to watch you closer. It's easier to just snap your heels together and say "Yes sir! May I please join the fight against the Chinese currency manipulators?!" ...There will be incentives if you do.

Hey, the future's lookin bright! As bright as a freshly polished piece of metallic medallic contraband.
teacher has a golden apple
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09/21/2011 09:52 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Now you may ask, "Why do we need paid enforcers to defend the Debt Notes?"

Well, it's because debt note, when electronically transformed into zero and one in the magics of binary transformation, become easier to steal. MUCH easier.

Check this page:

[link to krebsonsecurity.com]

See, this is why I have explained that only the temple prostitute should be allowed to accept the debit card, in the Cornucopian principle. As Levi says, it is all about a "sure bond" and you cannot bond with banking entities as you can bond with a woman.

Ensure that you put your hard earned money into a secure and good slot! It is all about the slot and the owner of that slot! Must I explain it further?

The COTUS was used to make Don Corleone and his chums, fucking rich. Do you get that part? The part about the COTUS being used to steal all booze (an absurd notion on the face of it) and then make billions and then amend again saying "Oh shit, sorry, our bad!"... Meanwhile tommy guns are in the hands of Guidos and the Chinese in the 1930s --not in the hands of the soldiers who tried to stop the madness (Smedly Butler predicted Hitler would be trouble.. You payin attention here??)

So the COTUS has been irreparably shamed on at least two major occasions:

1: was the post-civil war shenanigans where they made the income tax an eternal, holy thing (the enabling act of income tax was written to be terminated after the war)

2: The Prohibition amendments 18 (begin) and 21 (end) which created huge black markets and made billions for black marketeers.

Therefore again I say that there will be an amendment to the COTUS which will heal it, and remove all the criminality that has attached to it. The Cornucopian Amendment will decriminalize sex and drugs. It will use the COTUS for freedom, finally. But, before that can happen, the people who want to resist that healing, will have to be allowed to flop about and appeal to the courts and so forth. But eventually, finally, ultimately, the COTUS will survive and it will continue to be a record of how stupid we are.

My point is (as I have explained a few pages back) that we can make the COTUS really a freedom instrument, by correctly amending.

Well, we can amend it to show that we got smarter 100 years after prohibition and finally woke up to our own bullshit. But it could take as long as the 100th anniversary of the 21st amendment, which would be December 5th 2033. So we've got time for a lot of convulsions on the old system, between now and then.

The Cornucopian Amendment which disallows any and all prosecution of sex and or drugs (or booze for that matter) and which emppowers the individual against the state, would be totally American in nature.

Oh you didn't know that the COTUS was written by criminals? Sure! John Q. Adams was a lawyer who defended John Hancock against charges of wine smuggling in 1769 and he was just one of the higher-tiered FF's who was prosecuted for contraband. Look it up and then print this thread for the time capsule at your kid's school.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2011 10:52 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Money wont be worth anything soon anyway
Then we can all be slaves

Don't worry The NWO is on its way
I just wish it would get here faster
Then we all wont be so bored
medically medallic
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09/21/2011 11:23 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Oh you didn't know that the COTUS was written by criminals? Sure! John Q. Adams was a lawyer who defended John Hancock against charges of wine smuggling in 1769 and he was just one of the higher-tiered FF's who was prosecuted for contraband. Look it up and then print this thread for the time capsule at your kid's school.
 Quoting: teacher has a golden apple


Whoops, early morning typo there. This is the lawyer who defended John Hancock from wine smuggling charges, John Adams our 2nd Executive. He was _Born_ in Quincy Mass. I think that's why I get him and John Q. Adams confused at times. John Q. Adams was his kid, 6th Executive of the US who formed the Monroe Doctrine which disallows any and all colonizing in the US. Ah, poster above is right, lots of convulsions before this beast relents. But these FF's and their families were just trying to make a metallic medallic or two, can you blame them? Oh, and of course after the revolution, we introduced the famous metallic medallic called "Pieces o' Eight".

But quick question here, from a COTUS point of view, are slaves and rum, contraband the same as wine? Discuss at your family dinner table, feel free to print this thread and hand out copies.

[link to en.wikipedia.org] (Executive #2)
[link to en.wikipedia.org] (Executive #6 his kid)
Levi Philos

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09/22/2011 12:25 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Homepage of Martin Weiss: [link to finance.moneyandmarkets.com]

An email from Weiss was forwarded to me; do your own due diligence (some material deleted and all of the forward has been reformatted to display more effectively on this GLP forum);

Lloyd's of London ABANDONS European banks!

Banks could be taken down, says Lloyd’s finance director.

Without warning, Lloyd’s, the world’s oldest insurance market, just announced that it has withdrawn its money from European banks.

The reason? According to Lloyd’s, the banks are in danger of failing as Europe’s debt crisis continues to intensify.

The company’s Finance Director, Luke Savage, put it simply:

If you’re worried the government itself might be at risk, then you’re certainly worried the banks could be taken down with them.”

Which European governments is Lloyd’s talking about? They’re not saying. But it IS interesting to note that Lloyd’s didn’t just withdraw its money from Greek banks; it withdrew its money from banks all over Europe! One thing you can be sure of, though:

When the world’s oldest insurance company ..., A firm that for 323 years has made its living by accurately calculating the odds of future disasters ..., When that company suddenly takes its money and runs, it’s a MASSIVE red flag for investors - a clear sign that the beginning of the end is near!

Lloyd’s has every reason to worry. In addition to the government debt crisis that’s threatening to destroy European banks, a huge credit crisis is spreading across the Continent as well.

Spanish and Italian banks are rejecting massive numbers of loans and charging customers more as the sovereign debt crisis continues to drive their own borrowing cost higher.

Any way you look at it, this shrinking of European credit markets is the worst kind of downward spiral:

*The government debt crisis is making it harder and more expensive for banks to borrow money; the banks are passing those higher costs along to borrowers.

*Corporations have to pay more to borrow; their cost of doing business is rising.

*Consumers can’t or won’t borrow at higher rates, so corporate earnings plunge.

*As corporate earnings evaporate, the taxes they pay also plummet.

*Falling tax revenues cause the government’s deficits to explode higher, driving the banks’ cost of borrowing even higher.

And so, the death spiral continues ...

My urgent online video... [<EDITORIAL SNIP BY POSTER "LEVI PHILOS">]

Mike Larson
 Quoting: Weiss
Levi Philos

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09/22/2011 12:38 PM
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More thought provoking and entertaining posts from our one and only - Which monicker do you prefer?

Got me to look up "Guido"

Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary agree but Urban dictionary adds more amusing material: [SNIPPED FOR BREVITY]

Guido is a slang term for a lower-class or working-class urban Italian-American. The guido stereotype is multi-faceted. Originally, it was used as a demeaning term for Italian-Americans in general. More recently, it has come to refer to Italians who conduct themselves as thugs with an overtly macho attitude.
 Quoting: Wiki&Urban


WARDROBE: tight zipper shirts, tracksuits, designer jeans, fuzzy kangol hats, tiny hoop earrings, fake gold chains, and related Euro-trash garb and tacky cheese-wear.

NATURAL HABITAT: Known to frequent Tri-State area malls looking for club gear to waste their week's pay on (most likely spotted shopping at "Bang Bang" in Staten Island). During the day when not at their food delivery, telemarketting, or construction job, can be located at their local gym tanning or lifting weights. Can be found nightly at mainstream danceclubs they read about online (SF, Webster Hall, Etc.). Most notable for cruising the Jersey shore in an old car (Honda, Mustang, etc.) which has been tinted, painted and sports $1,000-$3,000 rims in a feeble attempt to look like new. Guido cars usually have a boomin' system through which cheesy music like freestyle, commercial club/trance and hip-hop (anything KTU plays) is loudly blasted.

GENETIC LINKS: Directly related to modern day urban-guidos, A.K.A. "wiggers," A.K.A. "wegros;" urban-guidos are white males who once exhibited the traits referenced above, but have now instead opted to keep it unreal, with wardrobes consisting of clothes from labels like FUBU and Rocawear which they bought on sale at Macy's. These individuals still listen to the same music and drive the same type of car as their predece...
 Quoting: Urban


(spelling correction made)

Last Edited by Levi Philos on 09/22/2011 12:49 PM
Levi Philos

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09/22/2011 12:48 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Poster "Cornucopia" on page 31 of this thread:

Any electronic currency, is like a toupee, cute affectation. Example I mentioned earlier in the thread of the casino token, is the same thing. The tomen is backed by GUIDO, and he has lead specie, and steel delivery vehicle, for a sure bond with your body, if you defraud his casino token. Get it? Weight/muscle backs the fancy-pants currency idea.
 Quoting: Cornucopia


There is found truth in the posts from Cornucopia but the reader must be discerning and acute.
Levi Philos

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09/22/2011 01:24 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Another Guido you should know: Guido Preparada

[link to www.guidopreparata.com]

Born in Boston Massachusetts on October 25th 1968, I was raised in the United States, France, and Italy. I have obtained a B.S. in Economics at the Libera University <SNIP> Rome Italy, an M-Phil in criminology at the University of Cambridge (UK), a Master’s degree in Economics, and a PhD in Political Economy & Public Policy, both from the University of Southern California (USC, Los Angeles, USA). Further graduate and undergraduate coursework in applied mathematics, financial history, economic theory, and international economics was completed at Stanford University, the University of California Los Angeles (UCLA), the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), and the London School of Economics (LSE).

I first worked as a research associate at the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI, Palo Alto USA): I subsequently joined the research division of the Department of Supervision and Regulation at the Bank of Italy, Italy’s central bank; and from 2000 to 2008 I taught political economy at the University of Washington [Tacoma]. In 2005, as a visiting professor of economics and Fulbright Scholar at the University of Jordan, in Amman, I have conducted research on Political Islam, terrorism and Islamic economics. Presently, I serve as a lecturer in criminology at Kwantlen Polythechnic University in Vancouver Canada, where I live with my wife Suzanne and my two daughters, Bianca and Carmen.
 Quoting: Preparada


I apologize for any error in transcription… LP

I have spoken to Dr Preparada on the phone when he taught at Tacoma.

He is an advocate of Gesellian economic theory as I am. Probably a “hot potato” for US universities. Independent thought is seldom well received in academia… tolerated at best.

Last Edited by Levi Philos on 09/22/2011 02:38 PM
Levi Philos

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09/22/2011 02:37 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Interesting exposition on the nature of "friction" in the economy FROM JET GRAPHICS; [link to groups.yahoo.com]

[link to www.theoildrum.com]

"It would be some consolation for the feebleness of our selves and our works if all things should perish as slowly as they come into being; but as it is, increases are of sluggish growth, but the way to ruin is rapid."

Lucius Anneaus Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, n. 91

Restating : civilization is slow to build, rapid to decline.

More discussion:

[link to www.benzinga.com]

As one respondent related:

... Parts of the U.S. economy are essentially friction, ... a substantial list:

1. Wall Street: a vast skimming operation on the productive elements of the economy

2. Interest: a hidden tax on productive work (as noted yesterday, on the Federal level, interest on the national debt can be seen as a criminal skimming enterprise)

3. The 40% of our healthcare/sickcare costs that are paper-shuffling, fraud, etc.

4. The vast profits, lawsuits, needless medications and procedures incentivized by our sickcare system

5. The National Security State/global Empire--huge buildings go up in D.C. by the dozens, all filled with unaccountable bureaucrats and contractors

6. Fiefdoms which have captured the machinery of governance: Junk fees and taxes skimmed to support unproductive layers of bureaucracy

7. Exurbia: the cost of driving out to the big box stores

..................................................

Friction versus Prosperity

Since prosperity is the creation, trade, and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services, friction reduces the efficiency of that process. There are "natural" sources of friction - mechanical, transportation costs, and waste. There is also a "human" source. All the predators, plunderers and parasites are "frictional" burdens on prosperity. The productive people lose a portion of their surplus to the takers, whether government, usurers, or predators. The economic decline - and inevitable collapse - appears to correspond well to the "Seneca Effect". After decades of slow progress, the rapid proliferation of "frictional" loads on America, have become a strait jacket that when drawn too tight, suffocates the wearer.



Eradicating political and economic "friction"

The burdens imposed by government, finance, and nature need to be identified. Those that can be changed, should be. Those that have to be endured, must be. And to know the difference, is essential.

Regulation that proscribes a limited manner in which to do something is entirely frictional, and should be changed. In the past, law constituted punishing deliberate injuries AFTER they had occurred. The vast majority of regulatory law punishes violations of the rules, without regard for an injured party. This is the crux of indirect government control of private enterprise, and it has practically DESTROYED the productive capacity of the United States of America. The burden of compliance with bureaucracy, taxation, overhead, and pure waste, hasn't improved the lot of Americans, nor their economic prospects - unless one is part of the bureaucracy or the indirect beneficiaries.



A simple solution - roll back Federal intrusion by 93% (or more) - before collapse rolls back the Federal government by 100%.

*Eliminate public debt (usury), on the grounds of fraud
*Eliminate national socialism and related taxes (no one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another)
*Eliminate federal agencies that have no explicit delegation of power (Art. 1, Sec. 8, Sec. 10, USCON)
*Eliminate the State of Emergency (since 1933)
*Scale back legitimate agencies to their original delegation of power (securing rights / governing those who CONSENT)



The imminent collapse may occur before implementation of these reforms, so be wary of re-imposing them, after the "Seneca Fall". Beware of compulsory labor for the benefit of another - whether that is in the form of entitlements, pensions, or grants. Beware of legalized thievery - expropriation of one's property for the benefit of another.

Governments were instituted to do two jobs:

A. Secure rights (endowed by our Creator, not by government or constitution); and

B. Govern those who consent (and only those who have done so knowingly, willingly, and intentionally).
that one dude
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09/22/2011 10:17 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Haha, Levi you rule buddy.

Hey what can I say? "Guido" is an affectionate monicker, I must not be disrespectful.

I mean, those tough sunsabitches got themselfs outfitted super-sharp, with zoot-suits and tommy guns with all the piles of cash from the 18th Amendment. I am tipping my cap to them. Creating a black market and making billions using a national nigh-holy document like the COTUS?? It's epic in its scope, their accomplishment. I mean of course the Popes are gonna want their cut but I bet Guido gets to keep a good percentage.

In fact, every nation and culture has their "Guidos". I myself am scots-irish and we had Joe Kennedy, famous penny-stock whisperer, and we got our guy into the White House. However I think both Don Corleone and Joe Kennedy did give a % to the Popes. Hey, you know, costa doin business. Those Jesuits are the biggest and nastiest gang when you get right down to it, and they cross all cultural lines. AND their bankers, are the Rothschild, so that is a tag team very few people want to tackle.

Seriously though do you watch Max Keiser? That guy has been having some great guests, I was particularly impressed with this episode here:



Your thoughts on David Graeber? Normally I am dismissive of these "solution" dudes, but this guy is seems smarter than average. His point about debt preceding coins is interesting. Person-to-person-giving with a pay-me-later modality, is natural and is an a priori mechanism. I'm sure these good people would be interested to hear your thoughts on this video. This Max Keiser show seems to be achieving escape velocity, 20k+ views for each episode.
John Gustosa
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09/22/2011 10:27 PM
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This Max Keiser show seems to be achieving escape velocity, 20k+ views for each episode.
 Quoting: that one dude 1556003


Here's the correct link, 35,000 views, Max kicks ass on the lamestream media. What is your opinion of his work Levi? Thanks for your focus man, you are tiger among pussies.

Levi Philos

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09/25/2011 12:07 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Truth is [that] the ultimate value that all other considerations of value is measured against is...

Wait for it...

Genetically driven. A human being is a gene's way of begetting another gene.
 Quoting: Levi Philos


Poster Cornucopia never exactly said that, but has been so close to the truth he could smell it.

See the referenced post above; click on the link.
Levi Philos

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09/25/2011 01:03 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Poster John Gustosa asks:
Your thoughts on David Graeber?
 Quoting: JG


David Graeber speaks truth.

The question of which came first credit or money is something of a question like which came first the chicken or the egg. The two are entwined.

I enjoyed how that video began with Max and co-host Stacy Herbert mimic those two Australian (or English?) dudes Dawe and Clarke. ( [link to www.youtube.com]

David Graeber comes on about half way through.

Max Keiser channel:
[link to www.youtube.com]

Last Edited by Levi Philos on 09/25/2011 01:26 PM
Levi Philos

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09/26/2011 07:38 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Welcome Mr Walker! Lots and lots of material posted here over the past year; I hope you will plug this thread a place or two other-where on GLP.

I usually check this thread every morning for new posts. Post any question and get a reply minimum 24 hours. I've got a life off the net and occasionally disappear for a couple of days.

Currently watching the Meltdown Series posted to thread: Thread: Meltdown - The Secret History of the Global Financial Collapse. The Men Who Crashed The World. by "Who Needs Money" from the Netherlands. Four 45 minute made for television videos - produced and directed by Terence McKenna. Must be a different McKenna. The famous drug user by that name died April of Y2K of brain cancer.

Number one of the meltdown series is here: [link to www.youtube.com]

Anyway, the problems described in the Meltdown series are from a design flaw in the current monetary system.

Look back in this thread for links to Chris Martenson video series "Crash Course" (pages 22 and 27)

Interest bearing hypothecated debt as the basis for a monetary system grows the total debt in an exponential manner until collapse. This is the prime cause of the Kondratieff Cycle. Which is why I post:

THIS MODEL FOR MONEY BELONGS IN THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY ALONG WITH THE FLAT EARTH MAPS! Contact Dr Preparada above and ask him if you don't believe me.

Add to that flaw the improper assignment of seignorage - which is in fact, the largest theft of value in history going on right in front of everyone's face. As a LEO, Mr Walker, you should be interested in capturing the perpetrators of this theft.

I may not be here long today...

Last Edited by Levi Philos on 09/26/2011 07:44 AM
Levi Philos

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09/26/2011 07:56 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Consider for example just this one post titled "removing the costs of speculation from the price of commodities" on page 27; this is written as an example of utilizing Gesellian Economic principles.

Links to Gesellian writers and protagonists are on page 36.

There is a piece titled "Financing Public Utilities using Gesellian Principles" - somewhere back in this thread.

Nearly zero bonding costs...
Levi Philos

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09/26/2011 11:03 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Just to be perfectly clear; I have no opposition to those who would conduct trade by exchange of precious metals or contracts that are counter-balanced and closed in differences by presentation of specie.

However, when Roosevelt rounded up gold, and silver was no longer coined or presented in redemption of fed notes, the so-called "dollar" became a mutual credit instrument drawn on the public credit.

This "public credit" is the property of the people, but neither law nor public policy reflects that fact.

What I write about is public credit owned by the people who grant the credit - ie - mutual credit.
Levi Philos

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09/27/2011 12:18 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Worth posting:

The main reason gold is dropping is because of the way the crooked financial system is rigged.

Firstly, plenty of institutional "investors" buy gold on margin. Then they secondly borrow against it to invest into equities. Then the banks use those loans as collateral to create money out of thin air, which they loan to each other to buy bonds and gold, which they borrow against... etc.

Now, whenever equities bought on credit are dropping, cash is needed to cover the losses. Selling more equities would mean that the losses are being realised. So instead they sell gold to cover the losses in equities. Then equities drop some more and smart people identify the trend. They then sell gold shorts against their long positions to take the banks to the cleaners, which typically works like a clockwork, because only idiots and amateurs work for banks. And as things start spiralling and banks shift their losses to the poor bastard that gave them their actual cash to manage, gold keeps falling.

The only risk to riding this trend is to miss the point when cashed up entities consider gold a good buy irrespective of what the morons do.
 Quoting: Commerce Gold Owner

Commerce Gold operates out of the Philippines, but I do not know where the servers are located or where the legal entity is registered.
Levi Philos

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09/27/2011 12:36 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Technically trained people comprehend this stuff quicker than any politician or economics trained person.

Vectors, Thermodynamics, Feedback?

The first encounter I had with the name Gesell was in a little pamphlet put out from a sort of commune out of Yellow Springs Ohio.

Featured writings of one of the two brothers Morgan and Arthur Dahlberg (or Dahlburg). The two brothers Morgan had formed that commune; Dahlberg was head engineer for the Tennessee Vally Authority (TVA).

The pamphlet was titled HOPE FOR THE FUTURE and was my first encounter with the concept of demurrage.

In its entirety, there are many ramifications; the simplest presentation is that most things that can be sold have carrying costs in one form or another. Entropy, warehousing and protection, insects, mold, rot, weather; what Gesell did primarily was to state that the monetary system should make a correlation to those factors.

Money is a symbol system for exchanging real things by proxy, and should reflect positively upon underlying natural law...

So look first and discover what the natural law is, and then design the replacement around those rules. Make provision for curing errors due to unexpected side effects.

Pumps and pulls - as Stefan DeMeulenaere put it. The political ramifications are unavoidable; but decentralizing the power structure is something I see as desirable.
Informz

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09/27/2011 12:52 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I Think the problem is credit and stocks.
IF these didnt exist, nothing could crash.
Levi Philos

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09/27/2011 01:06 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Shortly after I purchased the book NEW MONEY FOR HEALTHY COMMUNITIES (published 1994) (Thomas Greco) from bookseller "Loompanics" -

[link to www.google.com]

I telephoned Greco and learned something new over the phone.

The list of attributes for money are self-conflicting in at least one place.

Of the first two:
(1)Medium of Exchange; and
(2)Store of Value

It becomes obvious with a bit of thought that these are in conflict; something with a certain store of value will not exchange at any velocity.

This common list of (usually five) attributes usually fails to include a sixth:

(6)Tool of Empire

Nor does anyone ever tell Econ 101 students that these presumptions are generally true for a precious metal coin, but the moment the coin is exchanged for a warehouse receipt the rules change; and...

These presumptions are of an axiomatic nature - if incorrect all derivative conclusions are also in error.

It has since become clear to me that not only should the store of value be given a formal divorce from the medium of exchange, but also the value reference need not be the item stored. This is a more subtle distinction but a truism... IMO.
Levi Philos

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09/27/2011 01:14 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I Think the problem is credit and stocks.
IF these didnt exist, nothing could crash.
 Quoting: Informz


The problems are deeply rooted in the social memeplex and are of an axiomatic nature.

I have been criticized for asking readers to make canyon wide leaps, but once you get across the chasm you will look back and note that it is but a little crack.

Money is a special extension of language...
A communication...
By symbols and contracts...
That rationalize distribution and exchange...
Of real things by proxy.

The relationship of the money system to the physical economy is like the relationship of a topographical map to the geography. If you tossed an old topo map into a burning fireplace would you look out the window expecting the rocks and road, mountains and streams to suddenly burst into flame?

This model for money belongs in the dustbin of history along with the flat-earth maps.

Last Edited by Levi Philos on 09/27/2011 01:28 PM
Levi Philos

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09/27/2011 01:26 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Technically trained people comprehend this stuff quicker than any politician or economics trained person.

Vectors, Thermodynamics, Feedback?

The first encounter I had with the name Gesell was in a little pamphlet put out from a sort of commune out of Yellow Springs Ohio.

Featured writings of one of the two brothers Morgan and Arthur Dahlberg (or Dahlburg). The two brothers Morgan had formed that commune; Dahlberg was head engineer for the Tennessee Vally Authority (TVA).

The pamphlet was titled HOPE FOR THE FUTURE and was my first encounter with the concept of demurrage.

In its entirety, there are many ramifications; the simplest presentation is that most things that can be sold have carrying costs in one form or another. Entropy, warehousing and protection, insects, mold, rot, weather; what Gesell did primarily was to state that the monetary system should make a correlation to those factors.

Money is a symbol system for exchanging real things by proxy, and should reflect positively upon underlying natural law...

So look first and discover what the natural law is, and then design the replacement around those rules. Make provision for curing errors due to unexpected side effects.

Pumps and pulls - as Stefan DeMeulenaere put it. The political ramifications are unavoidable; but decentralizing the power structure is something I see as desirable.
 Quoting: Levi Philos


Turned out Greco had been there and knew those people.

Greco does not agree with the demurrage principle; however Bernard Lietaer and Stephan DeMeulenaere do agree.

Greco also does not agree that the measure of value could be human time... - but many people repeat... TIME IS MONEY

Time is money in Ithaca New York, and Dr Blain of the University of Southern Illinois (retired) wrote the pamphlet suggesting time as the measure of value.

And your opinion is welcome...
Anonymous Coward
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09/27/2011 07:46 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Sounds good to me

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