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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:25 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Fading Memory Money, by Leonardo Wild of Ecuador

[link to tech.groups.yahoo.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:28 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Henry George, Progress and Poverty: [link to www.henrygeorge.org]
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:32 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
New Solutions, Reports

[link to www.communitysolution.org]

From Yellow Springs Ohio
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:35 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Fading Memory Money, by Leonardo Wild of Ecuador

[link to tech.groups.yahoo.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


Leonardo Wild was born in Switzerland, educated in Virginia, and lives in Ecuador.

[link to ec.linkedin.com]

[link to www.writers.net] (the email and homepage link there both fail)
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:35 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442


While I do think that is a good idea in a perfect world....it is not a perfect world. Many people are jealous, lying, cheating, killing, backstabbing nogood lowdown scallywags. This in turn would lead to bands of scallywags traveling around trying to kill and take the stuff from good people. Same ol' story...why are people flawed? hmmmmm...................
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:39 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Charles Eisenstein; Sacred Economics

FREE: [link to www.realitysandwich.com]

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644



About Charles Eisenstein: [link to www.ascentofhumanity.com]

He has written a book: [link to www.ascentofhumanity.com]

Two essays in sequence say a lot. If you are short of time just read the first part as it exposes the present problem: [link to realitysandwich.com]

Here is the second part: [link to realitysandwich.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:42 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Eisenstein has recognized the validity of what Silvio Gesell exposed.

The first loans centuries ago were of things like seeds and bred cows. The idea was that if you planted seeds of grain that the seed would multiply and the lender would get all of his loan back plus some additional "return." If a bred cow was the actual loan she should give birth and the lender might expect to get a return of milk and milk products and possibly the calf as well depending on the contract. It is not by accident that the word "chattel" is related to cattle.


This social memplex has continued into today; however Silvio Gesell revealed in 1919 that most things human create and use in daily life DO NOT grow nor gain, but in fact lose value over time; the central core of the Gesellian model is that some money should be withdrawn over time to symbolically reference the laws of nature called "entropy."


The concept I tried to convey in the "Liar's Poker Money System" is that the current model is always trying to convey the growth and multiplication model in defiance of the natural laws of entropy.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:47 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
... I think the bankers are like a bunch of children pretending to be adults while playing a game where your ability to create lies and sell the lies to the other players is the most important part of the game...

There is a poker game called "liar's poker." I am not real knowledgeable about this, but as I understand-

a hand of cards is passed around the table where each player can keep as many cards as desired and/or exchange some from a "draw" stack. The exchanged cards are put in separate "discard" pile that is now out of play.

The previous player has made a statement about the value of the hand, and the subsequent player did not challenge, so now the subsequent player must have a hand that is of slightly (or much) higher value. It really is a game of bluff and the player's ability at selling a lie.

There is a book named after the game: Liar's Poker: Rising Through the Wreckage on Wall Street, by Michael Lewis.

Anyway, this whole federal reserve (not federal, no reserve) is a con job where top economists and treasury agents are engaged in a complex game of liar's poker that involves thousands of players directly involved and all the rest of the people indirectly involved.

The process of creating interest bearing hypothecated notes of debt involves a loan of ten (imaginary) marbles and a demand back of eleven (imaginary) marbles where the eleventh marble was never created.

"The Eleventh Marble" (Michael Rivero)(do your search)

Franklin Sanders calls it "The Parable of the Cards" (do your search)

( 52 cards divided among 4 participants [13 each], but the bank demands interest in the form of 14 cards returned by each participant)

This phenomena has also been called "the eleventh round"

I must admit I personally got caught up in this part of the illusion for some years - while missing a larger part of the illusion.

The marbles were stolen in the first place!
They were stolen from you and me!

The larger part of the illusion concerns the vesting of the seigniorage.

By default, when the gold was taken from the people and placed in vaults, the federal reserve note became by default an instrument of credit.

Everything you believe you own including your intellectual and physical labor became collateral, but there was no public account to offset the debt.

If you do a search on the net for this phrase: "In commerce, truth is of the essence" you will discover a set of rules that are generally agreed upon - these rules are quite old and predate the formation of the US of A. The rules held true while differences of account were settled in specie money, but when specie money was withdrawn, the game of money converted to the game of "Liar's Poker Money."

The specie money settlement was functioning as a reference standard and served as settlement of account differences - and also functioned as a performance bond.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:50 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
My Uncle Stole my credit card;

I didn't discover the theft for the longest time.

I did notice the monthly payments were growing.

I thought he was a good guy; honest and true...

Couldn't hardly believe it when I figured it out.

And now I discover my uncle is a profligate spender; a party animal with a gambling problem and who gets in fights regularly all over the neighborhood.

And now I am faced with a foreclosure action and probably bankruptcy...

All because my uncle Samuel stole my credit.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:51 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Everything you believe you own including your intellectual and physical labor became collateral, but there was no public account to offset the debt.

If you do a search on the net for this phrase: "In commerce, truth is of the essence" you will discover a set of rules that are generally agreed upon - these rules are quite old and predate the formation of the US of A. The rules held true while differences of account were settled in specie money, but when specie money was withdrawn, the game of money converted to the game of "Liar's Poker Money."

The specie money settlement was functioning as a reference standard and served as settlement of account differences - and also functioned as a performance bond.

In a theory of “communication money” this performance bond function must be restored; however, the medium of exchange function is separated from the store of value and these two preceding functions are separated from the measure of value.


…to be continued…
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 11:55 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Be Careful What You Believe...

It is my personal conclusion after much study that in fact, gold was seldom ever the actual medium of exchange; that gold was furnishing a reference standard, and it was functioning in a performance bond role.

The actual medium of exchange has been pieces of paper - and lying (see the Liar's Poker post) - lying about the pieces of paper has been almost the norm. When the lying becomes too blatant and widespread all the paper looses all value and a temporary reversion to actual physical specie coinage exchange takes place.

The real need therefore (IMO) isn't so much redeemability in gold (or silver), but rather mechanisms for discovering lies in commerce and mechanisms for dealing with liars. (Perhaps guillotines). "In commerce, truth is of the essence."
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:01 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The latest emanation in the series - Dove of Oneness, Christopher Story, Leo Wanta, and now David Wilcox is the story from England...

Lord James of Blackheath - 15 Trillion dollars and 750 thousand metric tonnes of gold

More emanations that result from using a "Liar's Poker" system of money based upon interest bearing hypothecated debt as the model and adding the additional insult that the seigniorage is not properly assigned to the people who give value to the instruments.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:07 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Any piece of money - no matter of what that piece is constructed - functions as a socially recognized mnemonic device.

Narayana Kocherlakota, head of the Minnesota fed.

a conclusion I was reaching myself when I first discovered Kocherlakota's writing.
WuDStefoto

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Belgium
04/28/2012 12:08 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
OP

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[link to www.youtube.com]

rememba: FEAR iS THA MiND-KiLLAH

LiGHT = iNFORMATiON ;D

peace2daUNIVERSE
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:16 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The social memory that is expressed by money symbols must fade with time.

That is the core concept recognized by writers Leonardo Wild, Stephan DeMeulenaere, Bernard Leitaer, and federal reserve member Marvin Goodfriend.

Only Goodfriend failed to attribute the concept to Silvio Gesell.

Several devices have been created to symbolically display the fading of the social memory in money systems.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:32 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Maxims of Law: [link to ecclesia.org]

Maxims of Commerce: [link to www.famguardian.org]

# 3: In commerce, truth is sovereign. See Exodus 20:16; Psalm 117:2; John 8:32; II Cor. 13:8. Legal maxim: “To lie is to go against the mind.” Oriental proverb: “Of all that is good, sublimity is supreme.”
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:37 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete" - Buckminster Fuller

[link to p2pfoundation.net]

Commerce is conducted via communications generally known as "money."

The present system is failing due to liars running the money system.(Liar's Poker Money System)

Maxims of Commerce - # 3: In commerce, truth is sovereign.

It is my personal conclusion that the specie money in the past was generally not really the "backing" but was rather functioning as a bond against the banker.

Because of the general perception that the issuance's of money were backed by specie, the banker was forced to make his contracts fair and the so-called "loans" repayable by the so-called "debtor" least the banker suffer a run on his bank.

When I was studying out the LETS system of exchange and related similar efforts, it came to me that the reason for failure was several inter-related causes among which were lack of paid professional administration, lack of good commercially enforceable contracts, and lack of mechanisms for forcing specific performance of contract.

One method of restoring truth in commerce would be to recognize precious metals as a form of savings and to incorporate these savings into the system where they function as performance bonds.

Thus the various promises to create things of value and deliver said value at a time and place in the future (THE MANDRAKE MECHANISM) can be further assured to be accurate emissions (of money) because the promissor is bonded by exposure of liquidation of his savings.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 12:44 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I have made brief mention before about the keeping of - not a credit record but rather of a "credibility" record in a mutual credit monetary system.

This conclusion was based on previous writing from Todd Boyle and Robert Hettinga who made observations on reputation records.

The combination of reputation recording (the credibility index) plus the use of performance bonding in the form of precious metal deposits keep monetary communications in truth.

[link to profitseekingdaily.com]

This piece about the resignation of Greg Smith from Goldman Sachs gives further credence to the concept.

The earlier version of ebay auction site displayed similar conclusions.

"In commerce, truth is of the essence" and reputation records keep the issuer of promises honest.
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 03:48 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Gary North has been attacking the "Greenbacker" position as advocated by Dr. Ellen Brown, Zarlenga, Bill Still, and others.

My opinion is that Hayek was correct - competition in money systems is needed.

I no longer have any respect for written laws - especially about the money system - because the law writers have relied upon century's old formats and accept what has previously been accepted and is believed to be true.

Only natural law is true... Hypertiger has that much correct.

Money is a communication by means of symbols and contracts that allow humans to rationalize commercial exchange.

Any act of telling lies with money symbols is an act of counterfeiting.

The countries (plural) are run by a bunch of liars.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 03:56 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Centralized power and centralized money form a symbiotic pair. Neither can exist without the other.

The current drive toward a single world currency will develop the most repressive government ever in history with slavery for the total population.

The solution is a system of decentralized mutual credit that is administered locally.

Greco has written and spoken on how to do this, and there are power point slide presentations at the reinventing money dot com site.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 04:03 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
A communications theory of money automatically allows exchange by means of gold and silver tokens.

There is in fact, a plethora of methods of conducting commerce - the presumption that ONLY gold and silver can be allowed is incorrect.

Griffin did a yeoman's job when he wrote the MANDRAKE MECHANISM and everyone should be familiar with that piece.

What is presumed by most to be some kind of crime or deception becomes honest and ingenious when used with full disclosure in a system of mutual credit.

A mutual credit system needs to be owned by the users with open books and a not-for-profit model. At the end of the year or biannually a rebate of profit is made to the member-owners.
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 05:50 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The Silver Stealers

New book - free in PDF format

465 pages of history you won't read in school

[link to silverstealers.net]

Over 13 megabytes, so be patient with the download - worth the wait.
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 06:09 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Eric Harris-Braunn quote:

“When I was growing up in Ecuador, I remember being in the marketplace where I saw a man sitting at a table with a pen and paper. He was listening to a customer and was writing away like mad. I remember not understanding what that man was selling. Was he composing a poem on the spot? I couldn't imagine the visibly poor customer wanting a poem. So I asked my parents who told me that he was selling the writing itself; that the customer was illiterate and needed to send a letter and so would pay the man to write the letter. I remember being amazed by this at the time, but then forgot about it pretty quickly. This story comes back to me now that I've come to understand that almost all of us in the world are doing exactly the same thing as those illiterate customers I saw in my youth. We are illiterate and don't even know it. We don't recognize that there is a form of "writing" we hire others to do for us but could learn ourselves. This form of writing is the writing of wealth acknowledgments, and what we call it is money.”

Not clear to me where I first captured that, but I do agree.

Sites associated with Mr. Braunn:
[link to people.thetransitioner.org]
[link to neweconomicsinstitute.org]
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 06:12 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Meta-currency: a step towards the Rheonomy By Eric Harris-Braun

[link to blogs.law.harvard.edu]
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 06:29 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Eric Harris-Braunn: "In 2003 my father gave me two books to read: Interest & Inflation Free Money, by Margrit Kennedy, and The Future of Money by Bernard Leitaer. For me these books were one-way doors. Once I’d stepped through, there was no going back, because suddenly I understood three things: 1) money was a human invention 2) this particular invention is foundational to all human social patterns 3) we can change it, and there-by change our social patterns. Thus, I became open to a huge new possibility."

What I (Levi Philos) have been posting is that MONEY IS A CULTURAL DECISION MAKING MACHINE; IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY WITH THE CULTURE YOU LIVE WITHIN, THEN YOU MUST PARTICIPATE IN REINVENTING MONEY

The quote from Mr Braun came from here: [link to eric.harris-braun.com]
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 06:38 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thomas Greco: Mutual credit with local clearing:
[link to www.reinventingmoney.com]
Levi Philos
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04/28/2012 06:49 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Frederick Soddy book;

If you go to this site: [link to abob.libs.uga.edu]

and insert simply Frederick Soddy in the search bar you can find:
"Wealth Virtual Wealth and Debt, by Frederick Soddy © 1926, George Allen & Unwin LTD. This book is NOT in the public domain and is used here for educational purposes only: "

They have the entire book, but it is in DjVuLibre format and I have not wanted to add any more software to my computer - especially as I have the Soddy book in hard cover print version.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2012 07:58 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Eustace Mullins: [link to www.youtube.com]
Ijustforgotyou

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04/28/2012 07:59 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thread: BREAKING: It does not matter what you believe
Check out thread we need to wake more people up to this BS
I JUST FORGOT YOU
Anonymous Coward
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04/30/2012 09:06 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Two pieces of writing - both short - that everyone should be familiar with.



Billions for Bankers--Debts for the People by Pastor Sheldon Emry
[link to liberty-tree.ca]

I want the world plus 5%
[link to www.relfe.com]

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