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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:57 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Eric Harris-Braun 10/22/2010 looking forward =>
[link to www.metacurrency.org]

Read the entire piece, but focus on this powerful paragraph: “When I was growing up in Ecuador, I remember being in the marketplace where I saw a man sitting at a table with a pen and paper. He was listening to a customer and was writing away like mad. I remember not understanding what that man was selling. Was he composing a poem on the spot? I couldn't imagine the visibly poor customer wanting a poem. So I asked my parents who told me that he was selling the writing itself; that the customer was illiterate and needed to send a letter and so would pay the man to write the letter. I remember being amazed by this at the time, but then forgot about it pretty quickly. This story comes back to me now that I've come to understand that almost all of us in the world are doing exactly the same thing as those illiterate customers I saw in my youth. We are illiterate and don't even know it. We don't recognize that there is a form of "writing" we hire others to do for us but could learn ourselves. This form of writing is the writing of wealth acknowledgments, and what we call it is money.”

Eric Harris-Braun goes on to describe money as a writing; I have been calling money a communication.
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thomas Greco - Your Money Power: "The vast majority of people remain unaware of it, but the fact is, we have in our own hands, right now, the power to create or completely transcend money. As I’ve been preaching for many years, money is nothing more than credit, i.e., the willingness to trust that the value we provide as sellers of goods and services will be reciprocated when we become buyers. But, as we are now becoming so painfully aware, our trust in conventional political currencies and banks has been misplaced; we have been betrayed. It’s not only a matter of fraud and malfeasance, bad as that is, rather, the entire system was designed from the very start to enable the few to exploit the many..."


[link to lucas2012infos.wordpress.com]


Further down in that piece Greco writes: "It is our own credit that we entrust to the bankers, then beg them to lend it back to us, and pay interest for the privilege." This is what I have been writing; that Roosevelt implemented the fifth plank of the communist manifesto that says the credit of the people is the property of the state. The next step in this theft was to license the banks to loan the people's credit back to the people.

There has been no off-setting account, no administrative practice, nor any writing of law that acknowledges the fact that the credit entries made in the banks is actually based upon the people's credit.
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11/29/2012 02:05 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
This present monetary system uses interest bearing hypothecated debt as the base model.

The result is an exponential growth of the total debt which is quite impossible in a finite world.

Not only is there the 11th marble problem (search for the parable of the cards), but the overall problem is compounded by the improper assignment of seigniorage.

Essentially, the banks have presumed ownership of the credit when in fact the credit is owned by the people.

This is the critical center of the seigniorage problem.

It springs directly from the fifth plank of the communist manifesto.

The field of political protest known as "redemption of the strawman" is essentially an attempt to correct the bookkeeping.

The federal reserve banking and monetary system is already a mutual credit system, but with incorrect bookkeeping.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 06:41 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Time for a new Theory of Money by Dr Ellen Brown:

[link to www.commondreams.org]
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 06:50 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The core problem that IS NOT EXPLORED is that a true capitalism only exists when people actually own the money and the money system institutions.

This message is found in the Skousen book THE NAKED CAPITALIST and again in the book NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY;

[link to www.captaincanadacrusades.ca]
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 06:54 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Previously I have brought up Mondragon and binary economics and pointed out that Mondragon cooperative was the very best example in the whole world of binary economic principles.

However, author Robert Ashford never mentioned the Mondragon cooperative in his book. The guy credited as "co-author" Rodney Shakespeare of England (I believe he functioned more as a proof reader of the manuscript) has corresponded with me on the matter of the cooperative. Rodney Shakespeare subsequently wrote another book - SEVEN STEPS TO SOCIAL JUSTICE that also discusses the monetary system.

Jeff Gates also wrote a similar book THE OWNERSHIP SOCIETY and there was an online discussion about the principles of binary economics. In a similar vein the Mondragon cooperative seemed taboo on the discussion forum.

Here is the point; what we are using for money is already a system of mutual credit - but the bookkeeping is incorrect. Essentially, it is a question of seigniorage. When the money was presumed to be a gold or silver coin about 75% of the seigniorage was vested in the coin. Paper printing was somewhat constrained because of the belief in redemption in coin.

Silver was lawfully replaced as the "backing" in what was characterized as "the crime of 73" (1873) and that was the story associated with the presidential contest with William Jennings Bryan who opposed gold backing and supported a return to silver backing for the dollar. Then, in 1933 under Roosevelt, the gold backing was removed for united states citizens although redemption was available to foreign entities and persons. That was stopped by Nixon (197x).

The defacto default backing for the federal reserve note became the credit of the people.

Essentially, the fifth plank of the communist manifesto was implemented through this series of changes. The fifth plank says that the credit of the people is the property of the government. The government in turn assigned the people's credit to the banks via license. We have given uncle Sam a credit card, and now uncle Sam is complaining because we are failing to keep up the payments. Who knew that Uncle Sam was a profligate gambler who liked to start fights, and that his word was no good?

Anyway, the point I tried to make to the speaker [deleted for privacy] was that the only way a system of mutual credit was if we the people owned the banking system and after cost profits were returned to the people in annual or semi-annual rebate checks - or possibly a retirement fund could be created and managed for the people's future. Much like the Mondragon system is administrated.

It is essential that everyone acquire and read Griffin's MANDRAKE MECHANISM which is easily found many places on the net; that chapter out of his book explains the process of hypothcation of the promissory note and the creation of money.

I wasted a lot of time pondering the 11th marble phenomena (also called the 11th hour and the parable of the cards) without recognizing the seigniorage problem.

The 11th marble problem involves the loan of 10 marbles and asking the return of 11 marbles - it is the usury problem - serious enough itself, but the larger problem which I characterized as the tyrannosaurus rex in the room - "eating everyone alive" involves the bookkeeping problem.

The bank loans credit - BUT IT IS NOT THEIR PROPERTY IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 06:54 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Explain to me why money is so bad, as opposed to how much time and effort a real barter system would actually take?

In essence it is just a universal form of the system...true it has been manipulated, but so will be, any form of trade..people are greedy bastards, just look at most threads here...they bastardize everything..
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 06:57 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Credit as a Public Utility: the Key to Monetary Reform by Richard C. Cook

[link to www.globalresearch.ca]
[link to video.google.com]

Creditary Economics [link to wfhummel.net]
On this page: [link to wfhummel.net] Hummel discusses the seigniorage problem.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:01 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Explain to me why money is so bad, as opposed to how much time and effort a real barter system would actually take?

In essence it is just a universal form of the system...true it has been manipulated, but so will be, any form of trade..people are greedy bastards, just look at most threads here...they bastardize everything..
 Quoting: exiled1


A smooth working monetary system of low extractive cost and high reliability is more efficient. That means people will select the money system over the complexity of multi-party barter.

That said, Greco has written a piece on how there is speculation among high echelon bankers that multi-party barter could potentially replace banks. (look on page 44 - I believe it is there)

I am in favor of open competition - the advice Hayek gave.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:10 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Foster Book is rated about 4.3 of a 5 star rating:
[link to www.goodreads.com]

I want to comment on one of the three printed reviews.

Review #1 (3 star): Money is a bad thing to hoard, according to this book, because it loses its value over time, sometimes suddenly. Foster likes the idea of hoarding precious metals, however, because gold and silver has been universally accepted as money for a long time. I would guess that most of us don't even have a lot of paper money, but have savings in the form of numbers on record at a bank or fund. A lot of us have seen the collapse of value in our 401(k) accounts, so the loss of value of paper money should strike a responsive chord. I enjoyed Foster's book, written as it was by a stamp and coin dealer.

The book was originally published in 1991, eight years before the launch of the Euro. Foster calls it a "work in progress." Considering that even paper money is being largely replaced by debits and credits in electronic transactions, the history of money itself is still evolving and is fascinating to watch. Thanks to Mr. Foster for his contribution to this history.

Review #3 (4 star): If you want the history of fiat paper collapses this has most of the major and important ones. Book is a slow read, but worth the time, effort, and thought process required to read it thoroughly. The quick review is: printing money on paper that is backed by nothing but good wishes is not an answer. Learn from the mistakes of the past and do not repeat them.

His section with the interviews of Germans that went through the collapse of the Mark in the 1920s is worth reading.

Review #2 (4 star): ...written by a coin dealer. does not trust paper money for good reason. [Foster's Coin, Stamp, and Publishing - see interview with Darryl Schoon linked below]

He doesn't celebrate colonial script, the money that was made by and for the people of the early American colonies.

Valuable history: as he is obsessed with paper currency, he will tell any interesting story of world history relating to paper money.

Best way to get unadulterated history: read books by those obsessed with some abstraction.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:11 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
"He doesn't celebrate colonial script, the money that was made by and for the people of the early American colonies."

This is the Greenbacker solution that is so condemned by Gary North. The Greenbacker solution is essentially the solution advocated by Bill Still, Ellen Brown, Stephan Zarlenga, and many others. Just print the money, spend it into circulation to pay for public projects and tax some back out of circulation. This is the solution that the Channel Islands of Guernsey and Jersey implemented roughly 100 years ago and still use today.

My personal observation is that the green-backer solution remains a centralized solution. The control freaks will congregate around the levers of the printing press. I would like to see the human race discover that money is a communication and that there are many methods of communicating value.

****************************************

A much longer, well thought out and written review is here:
[link to www.marketoracle.co.uk]
(any summation would be a dis-service)
Review by By Darryl Robert Schoon [Phd of divinity?]
www.survivethecrisis.com
www.drschoon.com
blog www.posdev.net
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:14 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
There is a 56 minute interview of author Ralph Foster here: [link to vimeo.com]

This is simply a mp3 file attached to a picture and plays faster than the usual video. (2009)

In this 8.5 minute video: [link to www.youtube.com] Darryl Robert Schoon interviews Ralph Foster in his office. (2010)
Good interview; recommended watch.

In a subsequent video produced this fall Darryl Schoon says "gold is the money of nations and the super rich, and silver is the money of commerce" (my paraphrase from memory)

Video here: [link to www.youtube.com] (50 minutes, 2012)

I found this presentation difficult to stomach while believable in content.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:15 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
As long as we are buying to live on a land that does not belong to anyone, nothing will get better.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:17 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Money has always been a communication between people via various symbols and contracts that allow exchange of ownership of real things by proxy. The critical question regarding any monetary communication is "Is this instrument, coin, or other symbol made truthfully?" The trustworthy monetary communication will be accompanied by some secondary bonding agent or guarantee by a representative agency. There is not necessarily any single solution to the question of trustworthiness in monetary communications.

This "no single solution" aspect is at least partially why the problem is difficult to solve.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:20 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Money has always been a communication between people via various symbols and contracts that allow exchange of ownership of real things by proxy. The critical question regarding any monetary communication is "Is this instrument, coin, or other symbol made truthfully?" The trustworthy monetary communication will be accompanied by some secondary bonding agent or guarantee by a representative agency. There is not necessarily any single solution to the question of trustworthiness in monetary communications.

This "no single solution" aspect is at least partially why the problem is difficult to solve.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


But why do you have to buy land to live on??
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:23 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
As long as we are buying to live on a land that does not belong to anyone, nothing will get better.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


That is the Georgist point of view and one that Greco shares but doesn't openly promote.

It is also the socialist/marxist point of view.

Personally, I believe in private property ownership.

That private property ownership still has some respect in the US is about the only plank of the communist manifesto that isn't fully implemented.

However, make note that (IMO) Agenda 21 is an effort to impose at least control if not outright ownership of private property.

The entirety of the communist manifesto is at the core of many social problems. The perception that capitalism is the core problem is misinformation and misdirection.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:27 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
As long as we are buying to live on a land that does not belong to anyone, nothing will get better.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


That is the Georgist point of view and one that Greco shares but doesn't openly promote.

It is also the socialist/marxist point of view.

Personally, I believe in private property ownership.

That private property ownership still has some respect in the US is about the only plank of the communist manifesto that isn't fully implemented.

However, make note that (IMO) Agenda 21 is an effort to impose at least control if not outright ownership of private property.

The entirety of the communist manifesto is at the core of many social problems. The perception that capitalism is the core problem is misinformation and misdirection.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


One thing is UN's agenda.

Another thing is Truth.

God gave the land to be shared by all.

No one has the right to sell it to you.

If they do, they are psychopaths. And you are an idiot.

No wonder you need/want money.

The lies!
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:28 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
But why do you have to buy land to live on??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I believe you have been disenfranchised from any possibility of land ownership. Not an easy problem to overcome for many.

My quick and dirty advice without knowing the full picture of your situation is to stop believing Main Stream Media - read some history and philosophy.

Read Bastiat - easy to follow and gets to the heart of matters.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:31 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
But why do you have to buy land to live on??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I believe you have been disenfranchised from any possibility of land ownership. Not an easy problem to overcome for many.

My quick and dirty advice without knowing the full picture of your situation is to stop believing Main Stream Media - read some history and philosophy.

Read Bastiat - easy to follow and gets to the heart of matters.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


No.

To BUY LAND IS WRONG!

It does not belong to anyone.

THE LIES!
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:36 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
And you are an idiot.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I have in my possession a newly published book that is subtitled "A Report From the Club of Rome - EU Chapter" that was written by Bernard Lietaer, Christian Arnsperger, Sally Goerner, and Stefan Brunnhuber.

It was sent to me airmail from London free of cost in return for my promise to read and review and provide a short synopsis.

I'll post a link when my review is publicly posted.

Are you being requested to review books prior to final edit or after publication?

This is the fourth time for me. Two prior to final edits and this is the second after publication.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:37 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
And you are an idiot.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I have in my possession a newly published book that is subtitled "A Report From the Club of Rome - EU Chapter" that was written by Bernard Lietaer, Christian Arnsperger, Sally Goerner, and Stefan Brunnhuber.

It was sent to me airmail from London free of cost in return for my promise to read and review and provide a short synopsis.

I'll post a link when my review is publicly posted.

Are you being requested to review books prior to final edit or after publication?

This is the fourth time for me. Two prior to final edits and this is the second after publication.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


Well, I think a lot of people in the world with lots and lots and lots of "qualifications" are idiots.

And if I was The Nobody? What then? ;)
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:47 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
My personal philosophy falls close to or is nearly fully congruent with the philosophy being advanced by Stefan Molyneux, Marc Stevens, and Larken Rose (and many others)

The voluntary society. Just do some searches for these three by name and watch some you tubes of their public presentations.

Watch Larken Rose "The Most Dangerous Belief"
His channel: [link to www.youtube.com]

The only socialist thing I do believe in is ownership in common of the money system you are participating within.

Banking as agency -- if you look back through this thread you will discover I have been promoting that particular memeplex on multiple posts.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:53 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Hayek: Choice in currency, a way to stop inflation: [link to www.iea.org.uk]

"In this short paper, first published in 1976, Nobel Laureate Friedrich August von Hayek suggests that inflation can be stopped by introducing competition in currency. The notion that it is a proper function of government to issue the national currency is false. Citizens should be free to use and refuse any currencies they wish: politicians and central banks would then have to limit their quantities." At the link there is a PDF file that is essentially a pamphlet on this topic.

It is my point of view that money need not be any single thing, but rather a method of communicating ownership and distribution of things. And that Griffin's MANDRAKE MECHANISM is perfectly valid when the so-called "borrower" is fully informed and the banker is in an agency relationship to the people.

Ron Paul has recommended competition in money systems:
[link to www.examiner.com]

Posted August 13, and he has said similar things at other times.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:53 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
that being said, the entire notion of having to purchase property, does seem a bit fucked up...
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 07:58 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Origin of the Communication Theory of Money

It probably began with the Canadian Harold Innis:
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Marshall McLuhan was a contemporary and colleague of Innis:
"His intellectual disciple and university colleague, Marshall McLuhan, lamented Innis's premature death as a disastrous loss for human understanding."

I have a couple of Marshall McLuhan's books and referenced them for the second time after reading what Prof. Robert Blaine (University of southern Illinois - retired) wrote about McLuhan:

"The symbols variable includes four types; speech, writing, numbers, and money. In that order, they carry decreasing amounts of information, increasing distances. The invention of writing reduced entropy because people could write their messages in a more durable form than the sound waves of spoken language. Simon Dinitz, a colleague at Ohio State, suggested that Marshall McLuhan´s, Understanding Media: Extensions of Man (1964) might be helpful to me. McLuhan suggested that money was a form of communication like speech and writing. Parsons also had suggested that money was a medium of communication, especially important in the transactions that occur between households and business firms. After reading a small paperback by a retired dentist, Dr. Edward Popp, Money: Bona Fide and Non-Bona Fide, (1970) I understood money as a medium of communication that conveyed less information than ordinary writing but longer information chain distances. This relation of money to speech and writing was reinforced by how easily the economic concepts of inflation and money velocity fit the paradigm. Inflation is loss of value, that is, loss of information, with money. Money velocity is the number of times money changes hands in a given time period, that is, information chain length."

Eric Harris-Braun is recognizing and speaking out about money as a communication:
[link to www.google.com (secure)]

Blog: [link to eric.harris-braun.com]

[link to metacurrency.org]

"When I was growing up in Ecuador, I remember being in the marketplace where I saw a man sitting at a table with a pen and paper. He was listening to a customer and was writing away like mad. I remember not understanding what that man was selling. Was he composing a poem on the spot? I couldn't imagine the visibly poor customer wanting a poem. So I asked my parents who told me that he was selling the writing itself; that the customer was illiterate and needed to send a letter and so would pay the man to write the letter. I remember being amazed by this at the time, but then forgot about it pretty quickly. This story comes back to me now that I've come to understand that almost all of us in the world are doing exactly the same thing as those illiterate customers I saw in my youth. We are illiterate and don't even know it. We don't recognize that there is a form of "writing" we hire others to do for us but could learn ourselves. This form of writing is the writing of wealth acknowledgments, and what we call it is money."
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 08:06 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
that being said, the entire notion of having to purchase property, does seem a bit fucked up...
 Quoting: exiled1


I am well aware of the current problems with MERS and was pointing toward future problems back ten years ago.

Study Bastiat first, then move up to Molyneux.

The problem isn't with the concept of personal ownership nor with principles of equitable interest.

I suspect that the land under buildings and the buildings above might be better thought of as two separate packages (and in many commercial agreements actually is)

It becomes difficult and a source of much contention when sound principles are mixed with unsound principles.

I probably have several links to discussions on this forum where I mentioned stellination and allonge.
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12/08/2012 08:14 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I probably have several links to discussions on this forum where I mentioned stellination and allonge.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


See page 20 of this thread.


Allonge and Stellionate are terms associated with financial crimes (stellionation is selling the same thing to more than one buyer); allonge is a tracking document usually attached to a bill of exchange.

We may hear more of this with the MERS mess and with the multiple paper claims on commodities - especially the metal gold.

You may wish to acquaint yourself with these terms.

Here is one hit for allonge: [link to www.wisegeek.com]

One of many hits for stellionate: [link to legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com]

Securitzation 101: [link to stopforeclosurefraud.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 08:24 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Conspiracy theory roadmap:

[link to realcurrencies.files.wordpress.com]

Brief extractions from this page:

[link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]

QUOTE

The Illuminati Jewish bankers who were promoting Communism and had organized the Bolshevik Revolution were aware that many observers were beginning to connect the dots and to notice the importance of the Jewish involvement in Communism. Thus, in order to deflect criticism, they sought to show that there were Jews against Communism.

AND

It was Miller who introduced Luhnow to Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek and convinced him to bring Hayek to Chicago. Miller went on to oversee the activities of the Volker Fund and attended the first Mont Pelerin Society meeting. In fact, both the Volker Fund and the Rockefeller Foundation supported the Mont Pelerin gatherings for over a decade.

Miller and Luhnow pulled out all the stops in bringing Milton Friedman and Hayek to Rockefeller-controlled University of Chicago. As pointed out by scholars Philip Mirowski and Robert Van Horn, “Luhnow and the Volker officers were not mere accessories to the rise of the Chicago school: they were hands-on players, determined and persistent in making every dollar count.”

AND

As we have shown in previous articles, the Illuminati elites did not merely provide financial support for both sides of the dialectic. Indeed, the Jesuits a.k.a Illuminati formulated the ideological content that led to the modern versions of both Libertarianism and Communism. Moreover, both movements were corrupted by Satanic influences.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 08:26 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
bump
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 08:29 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Forty nine minute mp3 interview - well worth the listen:
[link to cdn.counter-currents.com]

Neither the interviewed guest from the Netherlands (not much accent) nor the host is familiar to me.

*************

Thomas Greco blogs: [link to lucas2012infos.wordpress.com]

"Your Money Power":

The vast majority of people remain unaware of it, but the fact is, we have in our own hands, right now, the power to create or completely transcend money. As I’ve been preaching for many years, money is nothing more than credit, i.e., the willingness to trust that the value we provide as sellers of goods and services will be reciprocated when we become buyers. But, as we are now becoming so painfully aware, our trust in conventional political currencies and banks has been misplaced; we have been betrayed. It’s not only a matter of fraud and malfeasance, bad as that is, rather, the entire system was designed from the very start to enable the few to exploit the many.

Continue reading →

Beyond Money; Devoted to the liberation of money and credit, and the restoration of the commons.

[link to beyondmoney.net]