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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 08:37 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Anthony Migchels lives in Arnhem, the Netherlands. He started the Gelre, the first regional currency in the Netherlands. His blog is [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com] which raises awareness of monetary matters, most notably the nefarious implications of interest, as a way of empowering people and the commonwealth in their struggle against the Money Power.

Topics:

* How Mutual Credit Works
* The Goals of Monetary Reform [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
* Why Banking must be interest free [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
* How interest is a wealth transfer from the poor to rich. [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
* How the government creates the monopoly with the legal tender laws and hands it over to the private banking cartel.
* Other Monetary Reform Movements such as the Greenbackers, Public Banking, and Social Credit
* A comprehensive critique of Austrian Economics [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
* How Libertarianism is controlled opposition. [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
* Is Anti-Usury Activism Anti-Semitic? [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com] How it became associated with fascism after WWII
* Why there isn’t a strong populist movement? The phony left-right paradigm represented by Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party
* The Euro Crisis [link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 08:44 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I have posted before that there was a chain of connections;
From Ezra Pound => Eustace Mullins => G Edward Griffin

But the information and ideas about monetary reform that Ezra Pound was advocating never made their way down the chain to Griffin.

[link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]

Ezra Pound was never insane; it was basically political retribution for his broadcasts from Italy during WWII in English to the American, English, Australian, and Canadian forces fighting the axis powers. Ezra Pound was an anti-Semite who also bitterly attacked the money powers of his day.

Ezra Pound was a political prisoner held in an insane asylum and his health was failing. Eustace Mullins interceded on his behalf and was able to get Pound released.

Ezra Pound had visited Worgl Austria and studied the concepts that Silvio Gesell had developed and promoted. There is no doubt in my mind that Pound conveyed his knowledge to Mullins, but the knowledge was lost before reaching Griffin.

There is much in Austrian Economics that is correct, however, Mises never comprehended the importance of Worgl.

Consequently, I have written that a deep belief in Austrian Economics is part of the problem.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 08:56 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Hugo Salinas Price of Mexico wants to bring back silver coinage: [link to www.gold-eagle.com] and Fekete writes: "THE MARGINAL UTILITY OF SILVER" [link to www.gold-eagle.com] which is related to the Price writing.

Silver is one of the common metals that have been historically used as money.

At the bottom of this page: [link to rhetoricaldevice.com]

we find discussion of the first coinage of precious metals.

However, within the framework of a communication theory of money the validity of Narayana Kocherlakota's input is recognized. Any money token no matter the composition is a socially accepted mnemonic device.

Money is social memory.

Nothing I have written recommends that gold and silver coins cannot nor should not be used; it is just that you are limiting yourself conceptually if you do not step beyond that point.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 09:03 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Various histories of money exist; [link to www.xat.org] and [link to projects.exeter.ac.uk] & [link to www.pbs.org]

Close examination reveals that Tally Sticks lasted for about 712 years which is longer than any coinage.

Tally sticks were a fairly stable medium of exchange because the issuance was limited in quantity. They were credit instruments drawn upon the credit of the king and accepted back as payments to governance. This points out that the "tax theory of value" is mostly correct.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 09:09 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Accountants count, but what are they counting?

[link to www.investopedia.com]

Well written; here is a brief extract:


As a result, various accounting techniques were used to keep track of agricultural products and land use, maritime and land-based trade, animals, and labor. Taxation, public works projects, military initiatives and conquest eventually necessitated record-keeping as a way for rulers and their advisors to maintain social order. (Find out how these two have grown hand-in-hand throughout our modern history in Accounting And Taxes, Like Peanut Butter And Jelly.)
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 09:30 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Here is a page full of links to token printers, metallurgy, and various coinage operations:

[link to www.exonumia.com]

There are a variety of methods for conveying ownership of value.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 09:44 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Some aspects of governance must remain because money is a social creation and social customs must be agreed upon and set to a paper record. The present model is corrupt in the extreme with banksters and governsters in an extortive and collusion model with the general populace the victims.

Previously I have written that centralized money and centralized government form a symbiotic pair - neither can exist without the other. That the answer to returning (some) power to the people is to decentralize the money creation process and put it into localized control.

Some conclusions - a newer comprehension - with some rules:

Money exists as a symbol system for rationalizing the exchange of real things by means of proxy instruments and by means of contracts. It is a special extension of language that is primarily a communication. Within a communication theory of money many things can serve in the token and contract function. What is of primary importance in a communication theory of money is that the communications are made in truth.

To maintain truth in monetary communications the banker must have a clearly defined agency relationship to the people whereas:

* Reputation records (the credibility index) is kept on people (what? politicians also?),
* Where the reputation is poor, a performance bond must be posted as a partial collateralization of the contracts,
* Precious metals are given formal recognition as savings, and,
* These "savings" are presented and held in escrow as the performance bonds and,
* The Mandrake Mechanism is formalized and taught as a valid way to create money where,
* The people own the money system is a socialistic fashion with an open books policy and rebates after costs are made to the people and,
* The "value" of the money is dominated in human time and the number of units of time is stabilized in proportion to population demographics - quantity is important and,
* Everybody pays for using the system, but the hypothecation of the promissory notes carries zero interest - only a monthly service charge that is minimal and,
* All users rebate a sales tax like demurrage fee on circulating media plus a monthly fee on accounts of record.

These are my opinions and conclusions made after much study and reflection.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 09:53 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Token Coinage, Metallurgy, and Measurements of Various Nations

Sizes and weights in Metric system. This information is not complete...

Minimum weight appears to be about 2 grams and few are over 20 grams

Minimum diameter appears to be about 15 mm and max about 30 mm; Thickness varies from 1.5 mm to about 3.0 mm

Coinage metallurgy uses an entire range of metals from plated steel to brass-like alloys of copper plus aluminum with various hardeners that add shine or gloss.

In no particular order:

New Zealand: [link to www.rbnz.govt.nz]
Canada: [link to www.coinscan.com]
UK copper and copper alloy token manuf: [link to www.copperinfo.co.uk] (Nordic gold - really?)
US coinage at the bottom of this page: [link to www.coinable.com]
Italian Euro: [link to www.attilacoins.com]
Euro coinage: [link to www.fleur-de-coin.com]
and: [link to www.24carat.co.uk]

Old Chinese coinage often included lead from 15% up to 22% with some deviations... there is a word doc.
These coinages were usually about 65 -70% copper plus tin about 8 - 11%

Other notes include that many people have allergies to nickel, and manganese is somewhat toxic.
Copper and silver display bacteriostatic properties.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 10:05 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Zen Gardner on Competition in Money

Near the bottom of this short page:
[link to www.zengardner.com]

It is no use to wait until the Government cleans up its act. It never will. It is completely controlled by the enemy. Private initiative is the only hope we have. In fact, let’s face it: why would children of the One expect to have their lives be run by sugardaddies like Government? Private initiative is all there is.

Private currencies, competing with the Money Power in the market place are the way forward.

The world was conquered by a few ambitious men serving the Adversary.

It is now time for it to be liberated by a few ambitious men serving the One.

“THERE IS NOTHING MORE DANGEROUS THAN PERSONAL INITIATIVE: if it has genius behind it, such initiative can do more than can be done by millions of people among whom we have sown discord.”
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 10:09 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Mutual Credit, the Astonishingly Simple Truth about Money Creation by Anthony Migchels

[link to realcurrencies.wordpress.com]

Many links to other thoughtful writing from Anthony Migchels.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 12:03 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Pretty good thought piece on the Freemen site:

The Nature and Origin of Money
DECEMBER 07, 2012 by ALEX SALTER

[link to www.fee.org]

Chartalism vs. Bottom-up Money is the crux of the discussion.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2012 12:16 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Did JP Morgan Sink the Titanic?

The White Star line was indirectly owned by JP Morgan;

A search of conspiracy forums will reveal that this topic has been explored for years.

[link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]

Did the Rockefellers have the Titanic built to sink the opposition to the Federal Reserve and fund WW1?

(another search question where you will discover another conspiracy under discussion)

Was the ship that sank not the Titanic, but actually the sister ship the Olympic?

The Olympic had been involved in several accidents where no insurance payments were made and the ship was deemed beyond repair. Perhaps a decision was made behind the scenes to deliberately put the Olympic (renamed the Titanic) into a collision path with an iceberg. The video tells that a nearly empty ship was stopped about 18 miles away and speculates that this was intended to minimize loss of life. Critical crew members were aware of the details, but SNAFUs ruled.

[link to www.youtube.com] (nearly one hour)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 12:21 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Informer Videos:

link one: [link to www.youtube.com]

Link two: [link to www.youtube.com]

link three: [link to www.youtube.com]

Link four: [link to www.youtube.com]

Link five: [link to www.youtube.com]

Link six: [link to www.youtube.com]

Informer CD: [link to thinkorbeeaten.com]

Informer Books: [link to www.thinkorbeeaten.com]

He and James Montgomery did original research in the archives at the congressional library.

The conspiracy minded reader is well advised to check out their discoveries and writings.

The Informer is quite old and his health is slipping.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 29297785
Brazil
12/08/2012 12:25 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
that being said, the entire notion of having to purchase property, does seem a bit fucked up...
 Quoting: exiled1



I suspect that the land under buildings and the buildings above might be better thought of as two separate packages (and in many commercial agreements actually is)

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


In Brazil a lot of land is owned by masonic politicians!

Land. Not buildings.

And they hire - for very cheap - low-level psychopaths to kill "problem people" for them.

A lot of killings over LAND.

Not buildings.

They write the laws too!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 12:54 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
On Saturday, Dec. 8, 2012, Liberty's Hammer and Anvil will broadcast at 3 PM Eastern, 2 PM Central, 1 PM Mountain, and Noon Pacific, and you may listen here:

[link to www.themicroeffect.com]

To listen, go to the Microeffect website, look on the left sidebar for the “listen live” links and click.

My guest will be Phil Hart and the discussion will focus on the federal income tax. Phil is the author of the book discussed here:

[link to www.constitutionalincome.com]

This will be a very interesting show, so tune in!!!

Larry Becraft


********************

Not mentioned in Mr. Becraft's message is the further information that Phil Hart was a representative from Athol Idaho in 2010 and had introduced a bill to provide for silver coinage.

[link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]

It passed the House, but failed in the Senate.

Here is an April 2011 story:
[link to www.scribd.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:00 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
In Brazil a lot of land is owned by masonic politicians!

Land. Not buildings.

And they hire - for very cheap - low-level psychopaths to kill "problem people" for them.

A lot of killings over LAND.

Not buildings.

They write the laws too!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I am finding your inputs interesting. I thought Brazil was better than that and more civilized.

Even if not legal (thieves like their victims to be disarmed)- can you gain possession of weapons? The masonic politicians need to experience the same or greater level of fear as they instill in the populace.

Are these politicians of any particular racial or ethnic group?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:05 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Three GLP threads on the topic of coinage of silver for monetary exchange:

(1) Thread: House Bill 633: Idaho Silver Gem Act (up to 4 pages)

(2) Thread: CANADA introduces 99.99% silver coins for circulation. Silver is money. (up to 3 pages)

(3) Thread: Idaho State Treasurer will Give the option of paying State taxes with the SILVER (up to 4 pages)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:12 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Don't be persuaded by "shortage gurus" that there is some terrible shortage of silver in the world. There are many known veins of silver that remain unexplored beyond drilling for core samples.

Silver could return as a medium of exchange - what is needed is demand. And demands by a variety of methods.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:20 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thomas Greco reports on a New York Times piece about Bernard von NotHaus


The article:
[link to beyondmoney.net]

Greco just returned from a whirlwind tour that included several talks and roundtables in England, Switzerland, and Greece.
SeoKungFu

User ID: 1488460
Czech Republic
12/08/2012 01:22 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
It is about the time for people to realize that :
- you don't need police to be good, helping, serving others, with high morals
- you don't need .gov to organize your life, to prosper, thrive and move on, do biz, do whatever it takes as society
- you don't need anymore any sort of authority to go on your way.

And the only thing that keeps us all stuck is the fear and the fake belief in fake authority.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:40 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
A couple of search strings for your perusal;

[link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]

That piece is somewhat incorrectly argued. The core question revolves around how seigniorage is credited in the bookkeeping. A creditary monetary system must have the seigniorage vested in the people.

Here is a related search string that is predicated on written law that states quite clearly that federal reserve notes are debt obligations of the government;

[link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 01:44 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
It is about the time for people to realize that :
- you don't need police to be good, helping, serving others, with high morals
- you don't need .gov to organize your life, to prosper, thrive and move on, do biz, do whatever it takes as society
- you don't need anymore any sort of authority to go on your way.

And the only thing that keeps us all stuck is the fear and the fake belief in fake authority.
 Quoting: SeoKungFu


Nicely said; congratulations! This is the core message from the voluntarists like Molyneux, Larken Rose, and Marc Stevens.

Seems a bit "pie in the sky" idealistic to me and perhaps difficult to make happen... but an optimistic and hopeful point of view.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 29297785
Brazil
12/08/2012 01:49 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
In Brazil a lot of land is owned by masonic politicians!

Land. Not buildings.

And they hire - for very cheap - low-level psychopaths to kill "problem people" for them.

A lot of killings over LAND.

Not buildings.

They write the laws too!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29297785


I am finding your inputs interesting. I thought Brazil was better than that and more civilized.

Even if not legal (thieves like their victims to be disarmed)- can you gain possession of weapons? The masonic politicians need to experience the same or greater level of fear as they instill in the populace.

Are these politicians of any particular racial or ethnic group?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


Study José Sarney. The after-american-installed (there goes your innocence?) dicatorship-president.

NOW, he is the President of the Senate House, and guess what he is?

Study about him, and you will know what Masonry is all about.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 02:16 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Counting the Cost of Money for nothing

Which is about the Islamic financial model as an alternative to the western model.

It is a video featured on the Aljazeera media outlet. (27 minutes)

[link to www.youtube.com]

When I saw this table full of drug money captured that is being carried into a courtroom as a display, it stuck me once again that the physical printed money is once again being confused with the credit money as a social phenomena and/or public property.

The printed money-media (money is a communication) is but a small percentage of the total money.

The far larger quantity of communication money exists as written records and as electronic entries.

The video does get into the process and asks good questions.

The table full of printed money-media is the visible symbol of a purported theft while the far larger theft is of the public credit - the unseen theft - where the banks trade among themselves with stolen media.

The public credit is the property of the general public and the only way to run such a banking model is where the banks are agents to the people with an annual or semi-annual rebate and banking books are held open for inspection.

The speaker in the video is Dr Jem Bendell of the University of Cumbria of Carlisle England. He is asking questions much like Prof Auriti of Italy asked.

Dr Bendell here: [link to www.positivemoney.org.uk]

Very effective speaker; there is a TED talk...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 02:27 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
I haven't been an innocent in a long time.

[link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]

Age 82? He shouldn't be a problem much longer, but your point was that he is typical of a class of people.

[link to www.economist.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 02:31 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Here is the TEDx talk by Jem Bendell

[link to www.youtube.com]

He made that trip around Europe and Greece with Greco and I have been hoping some stuff would hit you tube soon.

We all learn from each other; this problem will be solved.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 02:35 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Here is the TEDx talk by Jem Bendell

[link to www.youtube.com]

He made that trip around Europe and Greece with Greco and I have been hoping some stuff would hit you tube soon.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


A major portion of the video is from Professor Jem Bendell
[link to jembendell.wordpress.com]

In the Aljazeera featured video he speaks briefly about gold and then transits to mutual credit about 11 minutes into the video.

He is on the board of directors of Community Forge - a mutual credit effort.
[link to communityforge.net]
[link to drupal.org]
[link to howtocamp.takethesquare.net]

The talk jumps immediately into the "11th marble" problem while missing (just as I missed) the greater error that lies in the wrongful presumption that the bank actually owns the credit they are dealing in. This is the seigniorage problem in the credit as money system.

It is my position that in a money as a communal credit model where the system deals in exchange of credit units and in hypothecation of promissory notes that gold is better used as both medium of savings and where the same savings are used in a performance bond role.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 03:25 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
People Money: The Promise of Regional Currencies

[link to www.triarchypress.com] by Margrit Kennedy, Bernard Lietaer and John Rogers. “People Money is a comprehensive guide to the principles and practice of regional currencies. It shows how regional currencies can transform the lives and well-being of local communities, how they can sustain businesses, how local authorities can participate in their success and, consequently, why supporting regional currencies is of vital importance to the future of your community, region or country.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
12/08/2012 03:43 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Creating Sustainable Societies: The Rebirth of Democracy and Local Economies

[link to www.principledsocietiesproject.org] by John Boik. This book “first pinpoints the central problems within our financial, economic, and governance systems that have lead to high unemployment, massive debt, environmental degradation, mistrust of Congress and big business, and hyper-inequities of wealth and political power. The book then proposes a bold yet practical blueprint for addressing these concerns and creating meaningful change.” See also the website [link to www.principledsocietiesproject.org.]
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/08/2012 06:05 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Your Money or Your Life: Time for Both

[link to www.freedomfavours.com] by Martin Simon. This book “examines the many ways that people are rebuilding communities and includes the definitive description of a powerful social innovation called Timebanking which is connecting people once again to the places where they live and offering a rewarding and fair way for them to share their time and their skills. This collection of real life stories will show you how to find the time to become a valued member of a thriving local social network full of new contacts, opportunities and possibilities.”


Equal Time, Equal Value – Community Currencies and Time Banking in the US

[link to www.ashgate.com] by Ed Collom, Judith Lasker and Corinne Kyriacou. “Drawing upon detailed case studies and making use of a mix of qualitative and quantitative data this book explores the most popular type of what has been called 'community currencies', in which localized systems based on time or dollar equivalents act as the medium of exchange. As such, it offers rich insights into the challenge presented by Time Banking to both the traditional social service and economic models, through the creation of an environment of reciprocity in which everyone's work has equal value.”

[Levi Philos is clearly in opposition to the principle that everyone's time is of equal value]

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