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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:05 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Usury (was - Why the Greenbackers Are Wrong)

The coinage charge is more correctly referred to as a "Franking charge."

The seigniorage is an imaginary value added to the coin. Thus in the example Mn supplied:
"The St. Louis Fed Answers: Why There’s No Gold Standard
Douglas French · December 31, 2012"
[link to lfb.org]

First an ounce of gold is called "Twenty Dollars" - then an ounce of gold is "revalued" as "thirty five dollars" - this is the seigniorage. The King claims to be the owner of that imaginary increment (the seigniorage). When a strict credit instrument is being traded as money it is all seigniorage.

The evolution over decades from partial redemption to zero redemption in specie was the change from some embedded value to zero embedded value.

The question evolved from "Where's the beef?" to "Do you hear the cow?" and far off we can only hear a "moo" bouncing between the hills.

When the money is all credit (100% seigniorage), then that seigniorage must be vested with the people by one mechanism or another. That is why I say that a mutual credit money system must be owned by the people in some socialistic manner.

Gold and silver coin can be owned by individuals, but mutual credit is a communal form.

So, now if You, the reader, wish to accuse me of being a communist, then I must confess guilty.

A whole lot of problems could have been avoided if at inception money could have been defined as silver and gold coin exchanged by weight and purity and with no additional numbers affixed to the coins and with no fixed ratios in exchange. Such a system could fluctuate in relative value to any other commodity and to the value of labor and be completely self-adjusting.

Furthermore I assert that multiple systems should be designed to run in parallel. A system based upon specie coinage such as gold, silver, and platinum with no fixed value ratio between them. A second system based upon a unit of energy such as a kilowatt-hour of electricity, and a third system based upon the human hour. There should be no attempt made to regulate the exchange rates between these systems.

That creates a self-regulation that brings in a era of stability never before found in exchange media.
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:08 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Banking for Muggles 101: The Par Value of a US Dollar by Jeffrey Mandalis

Here:
[link to www.21silver.com]

Mandalis shows up again on Al Adask's blog:
[link to adask.wordpress.com (secure)]

Then there is David Merrill who distinguishes private credit from lawful money:
[link to savingtosuitorsclub.net]

Perhaps we should approach the Quatloos crew and ask them for a definition.
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:15 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
What is a dollar?

There are currently at least five different values established by Congress for the dollar.

There is the Clad Coin Golden Presidential dollar.(fake gold made of an alloy of manganese, copper, zinc and nickel.)

There is the 1 ounce platinum coin that has a dollar value of $1 per 1/1000th of an ounce. (approximate)

There is the Silver dollar value of $1 per ounce.
There are the $5, $25 and $50 gold coins worth $1 per 1/50th of an ounce.

There is the $10 gold coin worth worth $1 per 1/40th of an ounce.

Then there is the Federal Reserve Note that has NEVER been declared to be a dollar or have the value of a dollar BY CONGRESS.

So which of these dollars or notes do Patriots and so-Called Christians use to calculate the value of income, land, food, cars etc.?

In other words a dollar has AT LEAST 5 different measurements attached to it by Congress.

(do not quote the above as being accurate - this post is about basic philosophy)
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:17 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Tolling Jennings of BC Canada speaks out for Bernard von NotHaus

From: [link to lqmint.com]

The Honorable Richard L. Voorhees
U.S. District Judge
United States District Court for the Western
District of North Carolina
250 Charles R. Jonas Federal Bldg.
401 West Trade Street
Charlotte NC 28202 USA December 25 2012

Your Honor,

I note with interest that there has been no sentence passed in the case of Bernard Von NotHaus and the Liberty Dollar. I have also been struck by the similarities between the Von NotHaus case and the recent case of “Beers versus US of A”. Beers, as you are well aware, was based on the Constitutional right of Federal Judges to have their wages maintained so as not to fall victims to a hostile government that might cut remuneration to influence or remove a judge from office. The inflation in the United States was considered a de facto cutting of wages for judges. The success of Beers is a stunning confirmation of the validity of the Liberty Dollar and a vindication of Mr. NotHaus’s intention to create a vehicle that would afford the average American the same protection from inflation that you as a Federal Judge enjoy.

One of the stated intentions of the Liberty Dollar is to offer a voluntary barter item that would be inflation proof. Because the Liberty Dollar is based in gold and silver the value of the Liberty Dollar increases as the fiat currencies of the nation states devalue due to monetary inflation thus maintaining the purchasing power of those who choose to use the Liberty Dollar.

It would appear that Von NotHaus has devised the proper monetary system for our time and that rather than a stint in a Federal Prison, he ought to be offered a position at another Federal institution, perhaps the Treasury Department as Secretary.

In light of the decision in Beers, I urge you to consider an acquittal of Mr. Von Nothaus or at the least a new trial.

Thank you for your consideration of this new information.

Tolling Jennings
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:22 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Interest bearing hypothecated debt created by use of the Mandrake Mechanism grows the total debt owed in an exponential manner.

To claim anything less is to ignore the evidence.

Mandrake Mechanism: [link to duckduckgo.com (secure)]

Some charts: [link to sareloberholster.blogspot.com]
[link to www.incrediblecharts.com]
[link to cdn.debtdeflation.com] (private debt charted along with governmental debt)


It is not the basic principle of debt that is wrong; it is wrongful assignment of seigniorage to the credit ownership by the banks that is wrong number one. This is the fifth plank of the communist manifesto in action.

In a mutual credit monetary system (which I support) the system itself must be owned by the users as tenants in common or similar ownership model. The bank must be in an agency position to the people with annual or semi-annual disbursements of profit back to the people.

The greatest theft in the history of the world is taking place in front of everyone's face and almost nobody comprehends how it is taking place.

The bank is not loaning out marbles, it is hypothecating debt paper - when they do not own the credit in the first place.
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:24 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
OK, I wrote: "The bank is not loaning out marbles, it is hypothecating debt paper - when they do not own the credit in the first place."

Just to honor the metaphor created by Michael Rivero, let up presume they actually are loaning marbles. Then, we must ask: "How did the bank acquire the marbles in the first place?"

One hundred years ago in 1913 and again in 1933 the government was crying "We are running out of marbles!" and the cry went out to round up all the marbles the people had and to put the marbles in a government repository. The government then decreed that the banks could loan the marbles to the people. This was done by license - otherwise it would have been illegal.

So, now the banks loan out ten marbles and demand back eleven - while CONVENIENTLY IGNORING THE FACT THAT THEY DO NOT OWN THE FIRST TEN.

The usury issue is important, but the ownership issue is larger. That is my point.
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 02:27 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The Bradbury Pound (UK e-book, written in 2012)

[link to dont-tread-on.me]

By Gareth, on January 4th, 2013 (written in 2012)

I’m about to encourage you to read an e:book, a free e:book I might add, but before I do I’d like to bat-away any nonsense about gold and silver being ‘honest’ money and state categorically that gold and silver are pieces of metal that have been used for both ‘honesty’ and ‘dishonesty’. In other words, gold and silver are indifferent and have been used for both ‘good’ and ‘evil’ for many centuries.

Surely ‘honest’ money is a commodity that works for the benefit of the overall economy, is created without any debt attached to the general population, and is not a creation of malevolent psychopaths and sociopaths that deem themselves the worthy rulers of the planet known as earth? Surely we should ‘put to bed’ this fallacious argument that only a return to gold and silver as money is the solution to preventing further dominion and enslavement perpetrated by the vicious and arrogant in-bred ‘rulers’ of the western world?

Just to be clear: I stack silver and all excess £sterling I acquire is converted into this metal. Furthermore, I encourage those I care about to do the same as silver is an excellent means for preserving one’s wealth and also an prudent and effective decentralised method to attack the bankster filth……..some might even call it a ‘silver bullet‘. However, I decided a long time ago that the problem isn’t fiat money, but debt-based privately-issued currency controlled by a select few, to benefit a select few, to the detriment of the many. Please always consider that the Rothschild’s commenced their empire though loaning-out gold, yes that’s correct – gold, and not some made-up fiat.

I hope you read this free ebook and consider the merits of the theories enclosed with an open mind.

From one silver stacker to another…..

Peace; The Bradbury Pound (7 megabytes - 45 pages - illustrations)

[link to www.ukcolumn.org]
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 01:14 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
What appears above to be a GLP typical url modification - the "don't tread on me" link is a genuine link that works.

Here is a proposal for a "Greenbacker" pound also written in the UK: [link to www.ukcolumn.org]
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 01:24 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Is Scoop an international site?

This link appears to come from Italy but is all in English language: [link to www.scoop.it]

I was looking for hits on - counting the cost of money for nothing - because Jem Bendell points out a link between fiat currency and continuous warfare.

Got that link above in the search, however, whatever Jem Bendell has said that is quoted is NOT on the first page.
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 01:46 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Lietaer and associates have written and published a new book titled "Money and Sustainability The Missing Link"
[link to www.money-sustainability.net] and [link to p2pfoundation.net]


You can read the piece "Environmentally Green Money System" that is a composite of several writers who grasp the essence of Lietaer's writing on page 32 of this thread:
Thread: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments (Page 32)

The book was written in cooperation with the Club of Rome
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 01:49 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Money and Sustainability: the Missing Link

Bernard Lietaer, author, financial expert, and co-designer of the ECU (the monetary mechanism that later became the euro) presented compelling arguments to show that there is a structural flaw in the current monetary system that generates all the current problems and repeated financial and monetary crises, including the eurozone crisis. It is also ecologically unsustainable as it encourages climate change and over-consumption.

Video at the link at bottom of this message.

Mr Lietaer presented his arguments during a lecture, hosted by the Club of Rome’s EU Chapter in Brussels, to launch the Report from Club of Rome: Money and Sustainability: the Missing Link.

[link to www.clubofrome.org]
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 05:17 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Royal Canadian Mint; Mint Chip Challenge:

[link to mintchipchallenge.com]

App gallery for mobile devices:

[link to mintchipchallenge.com]
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 07:20 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Golden Jackass, Jim Wiley:
[link to www.goldenjackass.com]

Interesting audio file on what he believes is coming out of China (a gold backed trade note)

[link to www.trunews.com]

Very interesting...
gembouncer
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02/08/2013 10:30 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
What is a dollar?

There are currently at least five different values established by Congress for the dollar.

[...]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3131543


root word: thaler ...A giant silver coin

I figured I would bump this awesome thread. I wanted to post this "nickles and pennies" hoaxer's words here, because I think I have added some key gems to this thread, as to nickles and pennies...

[link to www.sutori.com]

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:45 pm
Posts: 3
My name is Henry Wallen and I am a staff writer at skewnews.com, a satire website.

Recently I wrote an political article entitled, "Penny and Nickel Coins to be Phased Out in 2013" which announced that pennies and nickels would be discontinued in January 2013. Most of our regular readers understood that it was fiction, but some people did not. The story went viral and has been viewed by several hundred thousand people.

The piece is not mean spirited, harmful or slanderous in any way, and skewnews.com carries a disclaimer stating that the website is not responsible for the accuracy of any work. However the editors and I agreed to come clean on this one.

For those people who were upset by the penny and nickel going away in January, you can be assured that this is not happening; the story is fiction and was written for entertainment value only.

If you have questions or comments, I encourage you to post them here, instead of on the original story page, as this format allows for a more interactive dialog.

Respectfully,

Henry Wallen
 Quoting: Henry Wallen fake news writer


See, I have explained that when the King of Iron arrives, he will simply have to revalue the coins.

Now, I am not sure if this idiot above meant to step all over the point, but it is important to make clear: True and good coins in the realm is like medicine for sick goverrments.

So let's not be like this dummy above, and misunderstand.

When a nickle can no longer be made, well, as with all coins, nickles will be worth more than .05 percent of a "Federal Reserve Note"

But when a nickle is worth more than .05 percent of a "dollar", how much is it worth in thalers?

[link to www.coincommunity.com]

^^^ good thread here on thalers check out the size of them, they make the US quarter look like a gumball

Anyway, if you melt down 100 nickles into a moly and recast that metal as one giant (mega nickle), what is the bullion value of it?
scottish clipper
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02/08/2013 10:48 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Furthermore as to coinsmelting and valuation

This Chinese coinmaker can get you 1932-D WASHINGTON QUARTER DOLLAR for 2.20 denominated in Federal Reserve Notes.

1932-D WASHINGTON QUARTER DOLLAR
Price:US $2.20 / piece
Shipping Cost: Free Shipping

[link to www.aliexpress.com]

If you don't care about it being fake, it is a hell of a deal. but probably easily spotted by anyone with some understanding of how metals can be used to debauch.

But anyway, since the ACTUAL moly washington quarter is only worth .25 Federal Reserve Notes or maybe .17 FRNs in moly bullion then this means that the 1932 Washington fake has more intrinsic value at the moment, than the actual Washington quarter.

Well, the question is, how much will this dude charge to make nickles? Can he get his costs down? Hmm, however, there are millions of nickles in the hands of all street-level Americans of all ages.

So if you intend to crash all money, then the nickle is a lifeline. But as I have explained in this t'read here, nickles and dimes and quarters would have to be revalued upward by maybe 10x ...So a nickle would be worth .50 FRN in that armageddon scenario, as the paper money erupts into the flaming balls of theft and nothingness that it is.

Now, yes, when the nickle and other common coins are revalued, there will have to be a new minting of moly coins, totally different in style and composition. Yes, these could be gold and silver and that would have meaning, but the counterfeiters would still win because time input to make the fakes is very profitable. But not so much on the nickles, as even if they are valued upward to .50 FRN value, I doubt Chinese man with factory can get them in large quantities and across the ocean at 50 cents each. But maybe?
gembouncer
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02/08/2013 10:57 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Furthermore as to coinsmelting and valuation

This Chinese coinmaker can get you 1932-D WASHINGTON QUARTER DOLLAR for 2.20 denominated in Federal Reserve Notes.

1932-D WASHINGTON QUARTER DOLLAR
Price:US $2.20 / piece
Shipping Cost: Free Shipping

[link to www.aliexpress.com]

[...]
 Quoting: scottish clipper 33193769


Okay and here's an actual 1932 D Washington quarter

[link to www.ebay.com]

And at 15 FRNs you can see how any coin over a few dollars in value, makes sense to be copied by the fakers.

Tell me me now, if one can take actual silver and mint FAKE but really silver US coins, like say I give 100k in silver bullion to the Chinese man with factory above, and tell him to make me 1932 D Washington quarters, the silver cost is minimal, compared to 100 USD/FRN value of a 1932 D Washington quarter.

So even minting at melt prices, won't save anything.

So yes, any revaluation or confiscation is probably going to involve exchanges of lead before exchanges of silver or gold, haha.

So lead and brass come together to form a round. The brass is being removed from the American shooters, but in the form of fake coins made in china, said brass can be collected! HA

And lead, well, billions of rounds to the Treasury can have two different meaning can't it? Anyway, good thread.
Treasure thar be
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02/08/2013 11:20 AM
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Hah! This comment from the auction for fake Chinese 1932 D Washington quarters is great:

N***n J.

US $2.20 x 1 piece
15 Oct 2012 19:06

Very slow shipping, and Item was terrible compared to the rest of the items, which were amazing. Absolutely would not recommend this coin to anybody. Sharp very raised rim, circular imprint within rim on top edge.
 Quoting: fake coin mad dude


HAHA He won't recommend a fake coin because its not good enough!

Hmmm, how does one judge a fake coin as good or bad?

Intention is required in a court of law, right? TO WHOM would this buyer be recommending this fake? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess its true that crime has a trickle down effect, like how in Russia the regular people are forced into crime just to live. BUT HEY, this Chinese coinmaker has old 1749 russian ruble coins as well!

The difference is that only one of the fake coins discussed here, is still ostensibly circulating US currency, that is to say, I can take a 2.20 FRN modern chinese fake Washington quarter and spend it in a coin machine for .25 FRN value.

[link to www.aliexpress.com]

An actual 1749 ruble is worth around 1000-2000 FRNs at this time, but I'm making a point here get it?

Oh, and all lawyers, who grease the wheels of this evil machinery, are as debauched a caste, as the coins from China. But the point is, giving people bad feedback on the global coinmarket level is just not cool. Chinese man has factory to pay for. How many fake coin minters inside the US in 2013? How many in 2025? Only the Treasury Dept and their militarized future selfs, can save us! Hahahaha, as if.
reverberator
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02/08/2013 11:38 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Ah yes here's timgits stating the costs of making nickles and pennies:

[link to blogs.wsj.com]

[...]

Geithner, in written testimony prepared for the House Committee on Appropriations, said a good portion of next year’s savings at Treasury will come from changing the composition of U.S. coins to more cost-effective materials.

“Currently, the costs of making the penny and the nickel are more than twice the face value of each of those coins,” Geithner said in his remarks.

The cost of making pennies and nickels are about twice the face value of the coins–2.4 cents for a penny and 11.2 cents for a nickel, the Treasury Department said earlier this month. Rising commodity prices have driven higher production costs. The Mint said it used 16,365 tons of copper, 2,311 tons of nickel and 11,844 tons of zinc to produce all coins in fiscal year 2011.
 Quoting: timgits


So if timgits lies, that is perjury? ahh, silly question.

Anyway, this tidbit is also relevant:

[link to www.usmint.gov]

April 17, 2007

United States Mint Limits Exportation & Melting of Coins
Final Rule Maintains Policy Established in December


WASHINGTON - The United States Mint today announced a final rule to limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of one-cent (penny) and 5-cent (nickel) United States coins, to safeguard against a potential shortage of these coins in circulation.

United States Mint Director Edmund C. Moy had approved an interim rule on December 12, 2006, to be in effect for 120 days. Enactment of the final rule was pending public comment, solicited during a 30-day period from the date of the interim rule’s publication in the Federal Register on December 20, 2006.

“The new rule safeguards the integrity of U.S. coinage and protects taxpayers from bearing the costs to replace coins withdrawn from circulation,” said Director Moy.

The rising commodity prices of copper, nickel and zinc have increased the value of the metal in both pennies and nickels so that the content of these coins now exceeds their face value. There is concern that speculators could remove pennies and nickels from circulation and sell them as scrap for profit.

The United States Mint has received inquiries from the public over the past several months concerning the metal value of these coins and whether it is legal to melt them. Widespread withdrawal of pennies and nickels from circulation could cause coin shortages, and it would be extremely costly to replenish them, given prevailing metal prices and production costs.

Specifically, the newly enacted final regulation prohibits, with certain exceptions, the exportation, melting or treatment of one-cent and 5-cent coins. Some of the exceptions allow for small amounts of these coins to be exported as pocket change, and for recreational and numismatic purposes. Other exceptions include the treatment of minor quantities of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry and similar purposes. However, the public should review the regulation for precise terms and limitations of the exceptions.

The new regulation authorizes a fine of not more than $10,000, or imprisonment of not more than five years, or both, against a person who knowingly violates the regulation. In addition, by law, any coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of the regulation shall be forfeited to the United States Government.

The new rule, and public comments received on the interim rule, appear on the United States Mint website at www.usmint.gov
 Quoting:
Anonymous Coward
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02/08/2013 11:55 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thanks for the links Gembouncer; I began comprehension of the symbolic and token (belief) origins of money 15 years ago.

But conveying my understanding to others has been difficult.

Those old coins used hand casting and one at a time stamping equipment, but today's sheet rolling and planchett cutting equipment yields a consistent coin.

The stamping equipment uses hydraulic presses that kick out very nice looking detailed coins and at high rates of speed.

I think tungsten coinage might use different processes. (Haven't actually tried to discover how tungsten is worked)

Like I posted before, use gun cartridge brass; doesn't seem like there will be a shortage of that anytime soon.
Anonymous Coward
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02/08/2013 12:12 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
This confuser is so internally compromised I am going to do a switch out to a laptop. It is running very slowly and balking at anything that involves you tube or adobe flash.

Anyway, do this search:
[link to www.google.com (secure)]

for some videos on how the coinage process operates now. One hit was to the US treasury but I couldn't get it open. 9:36 minutes.
Anonymous Coward
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02/08/2013 03:49 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Fake Gold: [link to www.osbornecoin.com]

"Make A Statement

Our Goldine® custom coins and medallions are attractive promotional items for events, commemoratives, and souvenirs. The brilliant, solid golden brass alloy is formulated to look like 14KT gold.

Reproducing the finest details, Goldine coins and custom made medallions have tremendous popular appeal. Let Osborne Coinage create high quality, economically priced custom coins or medallions for you."

Fake Silver: [link to www.osbornecoin.com]

"The Look Of Fine Silver

Our Nickel-Silver custom coins and medallions contain a heavyweight alloy made of a special blend of nickel, copper, and zinc. Although it contains no precious metal, it is bright silver in color, scratch-resistant, non-tarnishing and very durable.

Reproducing the finest details, Osborne Coinage Nickel-Silver coins and medallions have tremendous popular appeal. An ideal alloy to use for 25th Anniversaries, promotional items for service awards, or marketing tools with company logos, this bright silver coin is economical and leaves a lasting impression of a silver dollar."
Anonymous Coward
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02/09/2013 09:00 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Golden Jackass, Jim Wiley:
[link to www.goldenjackass.com]

Interesting audio file on what he believes is coming out of China (a gold backed trade note)

[link to www.trunews.com]

Very interesting...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


So, here Willie is talking more about currency wars:

[link to www.silverdoctors.com]
Anonymous Coward
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02/09/2013 09:02 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Discussion of the trillion dollar coin proposal:
[link to www.independentamerican.org]

I don't have a problem with credit as money and in fact have come out clearly in favor of a mutual credit monetary system.

However, the value of the credit must be vested in the people and the banks placed into an agency relationship to the people.

Open books with the money system run as a not-for-profit with disbursements of profits back to the people.

Specie coinage is best recognized as a "medium of savings" where these savings can be used in a performance bond role. In conjunction with a formal system of reputation recording. If anyone has a poor reputation, then they must have savings to place at risk.

Truth in commerce requires that all players have some skin in the game.

Look at what is happening with the international efforts to recover long held gold bullion and ask:

Is the deposit of gold actually functioning as a performance bond against the central banking fraternity?

They are habitual liars and get caught up in their lies.
gembouncer
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02/10/2013 09:39 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Discussion of the trillion dollar coin proposal:
[link to www.independentamerican.org]

I don't have a problem with credit as money and in fact have come out clearly in favor of a mutual credit monetary system.

However, the value of the credit must be vested in the people and the banks placed into an agency relationship to the people.

Open books with the money system run as a not-for-profit with disbursements of profits back to the people.

Specie coinage is best recognized as a "medium of savings" where these savings can be used in a performance bond role. In conjunction with a formal system of reputation recording. If anyone has a poor reputation, then they must have savings to place at risk.

Truth in commerce requires that all players have some skin in the game.

Look at what is happening with the international efforts to recover long held gold bullion and ask:

Is the deposit of gold actually functioning as a performance bond against the central banking fraternity?

They are habitual liars and get caught up in their lies.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


Thanks for the epic thread Levi Philos, glad to see you are still keeping it real.

Here is truth: Money, so called, is just work in fungible form. I work for one day, say I get 200 USD for that day's work. In the end, what form it takes, can be diseased or can be 100% fascist like the greenback. But as a worker, I kinda realize that we need a sort of Iron King like Lycurgus of Sparta who will keep the money real.

QUESTION FOR ALL: What is the form of "anti debauchery of money"? How would a King or any Executive with the power to kill, keep the money from being debauched? That is square one on this gameboard.

If you cannot have your people work, and have their work monetized for their carry and trade, without that monetizing medium being debauched 24/7 by the coinwrecking goldensteins and shecklemongers, well, if you can't protect the monetized work aka MONEY from being eaten by the bank-termite who eat all productive labor, well then you are a pretty useless King, ya know?

Typically I think most Kings and Queens take the bankers side in the coin shaving and debauching operations of history. It is rare to have a good King who established good and true monetization of labor aka money. And it's a daily battle to keep that money real. Eventually a King like that must rise. He will have to be like a General in warfare, he must protect the supply lines of "monetizing labor in the hands of the worker" aka WORK = MONEY paradigm.

The world as such, is built on a slave planet principle, so teaching the people not to be slaves for a job, might be step one, but eventually, even if they aren't workers but worse, mercenaries, still, mercs will demand real money. But any King that raises mercs in his own country, has already failed treasonously imo.
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02/12/2013 09:13 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Why name coins?

Some are named Eagles and Half-Eagles; others "Dollars"

Some are Dinar, others Peso and Lira.

The answer lies in a curious quirk of human psychology.

Chew on that question; I did - for nearly five years.

Why not write a simple law that says "Final settlement of differences of contracts shall be made by presentation of elements of pure gold, or of pure silver, or of pure platinum by weight in grams of the pure element." and "No fixed value relationship can be set between these elements because of Gresham's law." (??)
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02/12/2013 09:15 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Why name Coins? Is the exchange about the name?

Or, is the exchange about the specie metal?

If the exchange is about the specie metal, then the simple law designating exchange by weight and purity is the simple solution.

If the exchange is about the name, then stamp the name on some easily obtained and plentiful metals. That is why I suggest gun-cartridge brass. Doesn't seem to be any shortage of that material. Just maintain a reasonable quantity in circulation in relation to population demographics. Bill Still, in his latest large video THE SECRET OF OZ mentions Quantity several times. I think a lot of people don't like Still's voice and presentation. They don't criticize the message, but they do ignore the video.

The quantity theory I like is to maintain (as closely as possible) a quantity of circulating media in relation to population demographics.

Let the government print the greenbacks and cartridge brass coinage and spend it into circulation and tax some back out of circulation.

But the congress-critters are all tied up with videos and paper records of their past indiscretions or simply on the take of payoffs. The bankers own nearly every one of them.

The Bill Still video is here: [link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

About the video: [link to www.themoneymasters.com]
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02/12/2013 09:22 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Bill Still on Mises and gold as money:
[link to www.billstill.com]

*********************************

QUOTE

The first 2 minutes of Max Keiser's latest is so interesting regarding the von Mises Institute.


[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

Many are questioning now -- for the first time -- the previously accepted dogma that gold is good. Why do smart folks like Peter Schiff, Ed Griffin and Ron Paul refuse to take a fresh look at this question when they are spouting the same philosophy that J.P. Morgan espoused 100 years ago.

My take on Ed Griffin is that he is a patriot and well-intended. He, like Ron Paul, grew up at that time when the von Mises folks were in their ascendency. Their real agenda was hidden. Schiff, Griffin and Paul would have to admit they were wrong. They would have to admit that the von Mises/old school Libertarians were -- at best -- nothing but anarchists -- and worse than that, plutocrats.

The von Mises folk believe that the average person is too stupid to effectively participate in self-governance, so, therefore, all governance should default to non-governance??? History clearly shows that a state of non-governance will quickly default into the hands of the few -- the crown and its banks -- plutocracy. In either case, they do not believe in humanity's thousand-year great experiment in self-governance.

Freedom is a delicate balance between too much governance and too little. What the von Mises folk won't admit is that serfdom exists at either end of that balance. Von Mises folk don't realize that the anarchism professed openly by Prof. Murray Rothbard & company does not yield maximal human political freedom. Nature abhors a vacuum. Every anarchy in world history is followed in short order by tyranny and maximal centralization of power.

Ed Griffin and Ron Paul would rather go to their graves than admit they had swallowed this poison pill of the last 4 decades, hook, line and sinker.

I'm studying J.P. Morgan and the Rockefellers right now. Morgan constantly supported the gold standard calling it "sound money." He also considered himself a pirate -- oops, I mean a "privateer" -- in the service of the British Crown and the City. That's why he called all 4 of his yachts, "Corsair", and painted them black. Not surprisingly, he stopped short of flying the "Jolly Roger", however.

Gold money is the ultimate centralization of the money power. Yes, it IS sound money. The quantity is easily controlled, but it does not democratize the money power to operate to the benefit of we, the people. It centralizes it into the hands of those few best able to buy up the commodity serving as the monetary base -- gold. This would, in fact, be the bankers.

I believe that a sovereign money must serve the public interest -- by definition.
I believe that gold money does not serve the public interest.
I believe power should be decentralized to the maximum extent which is politically practical. Too much decentralization slips over into anarchy and yields the same as too much centralization in the first place.

********************************************************

END QUOTE; observe the very last line - "I believe power should be decentralized to the maximum extent which is politically practical. Too much decentralization slips over into anarchy..."

What have I posted again and again? Centralized money and centralized power form a symbiotic pair. Neither can exist without the other. The solution I suggest is a system of decentralized mutual credit administered locally with no centralized monetary authority." This solution will put power back in the hands of the people.

Unfortunately, I have not yet discovered exactly how this can be accomplished. That is why I suggest everyone read Thomas Greco and Jem Bendell and the people at Positive Money UK: [link to www.positivemoney.org] (Greco: [link to beyondmoney.net]
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02/12/2013 11:35 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
On Bill Still's advice I watched Keiser Report #334.

Classic material!

More of his stuff:
[link to www.youtube.com]

Max Keiser is a severe critic of the banking industry and most of the current crop of economists.

Right behind Max Keiser is Gerald Celente.
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02/12/2013 11:46 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
This is Gerald Celente's tube channel:

[link to www.youtube.com]

Money is a cultural decision making machine; to change the culture you must change the money system.

Recognizing that the credit of the nation is the property of the people is an important first step.
Organic Light

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02/12/2013 11:53 AM

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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Government enslaves: Who are they to say we cannot exist without their rule? We are meant to be free, free from the archonic matrix that has been artifically created by these rulers.

Last Edited by Arete11 on 02/12/2013 11:56 AM
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