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Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments

 
Anonymous Coward
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05/14/2010 10:47 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
This website is associated with the guardian effort:
[link to www.global-settlement.org]

Get the two PDF files:

Final Settlement part one: [link to www.global-settlement.org]
& Final Settlement part two: [link to www.global-settlement.org]

That final settlement paper mentions LOOM as a digital currency model.

Personally, I have major trust issues with digital currency, but note that a very large percentage of the general public is quietly migrating into charge cards, online payments, electronic signature pads etc without any fuss about the direction they are headed.

LOOM is often compared to RIPPLE, so I will give some links on both.

LOOM: [link to billstclair.com]
[link to billstclair.com (secure)] & [link to loom.cc]

Loom is used by Graham Kelly of Australia with his e-gold type independent currency that is international, based out of Australia.

Sepp Hasslberger seems more RIPPLE inclined: [link to blog.hasslberger.com]
RIPPLE: [link to ripple.sourceforge.net]

What news if any on e-gold? Are they still around?
Anonymous Coward
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05/14/2010 11:01 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
If you are proposing anarchy, that is what you will get. If you are proposing a true form of communism, you will never get it. Humans are not ants, and never will be. And even ants are controlled by a leader.
 Quoting: Zerocyber


Anarchy means nothing over.

It DOES NOT MEAN CHAOS and it is not a bad thing unless you like slavery.

The Powers want you to believe that their rule is essential in keeping chaos and evil at bay when the truth is they are the purveyors of both.

This just proves to me you are an idiot who has succumbed to the brainwashing .
Anonymous Coward
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05/14/2010 11:41 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
E-gold: [link to www.e-gold.com]

Graham Kelly, Gold Now [link to secure.goldnow.st (secure)]

An on-line digital gold magazine: [link to www.dgcmagazine.com]

Commerce Gold: [link to c-gold.biz] (site does not open today)

Links to various digital gold systems: [link to getemoney.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/14/2010 12:42 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Libertopia conference Hollywood California October 15, 16, & 17

Stellar lineup of speakers

[link to www.libertopia.org]
Levi Philos
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05/14/2010 01:41 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Do a search for "eleemosynary trust" "federal reserve" and you will find this at LB Bork's (The Jurist) forum:

[link to www.notmygovernment.us]

Discusses land ownership and land patents under this neu-socialistic system and links to this also:

[link to freedomradio.us]

LB Bork: [link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 01:05 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thanks to Night Sky of Canada on the Governors of the 50 states thread previous to and on page 494

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

For pointing out some you tube videos of good interest to this thread.

Three fellows - all new to me - are in an ongoing you tube discussion on the general topic of what is money;

Zthrustra commentary on Colonial Scrip [he uses script which is the writing for the words and actions of a play - scrip is correct]: [link to www.youtube.com]
Very close to the same message: [link to www.youtube.com]

Shanedk on gold & gold certificates: [link to www.youtube.com]

Djsherin - I have not yet watched.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 01:10 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442






Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Levi Philos
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05/19/2010 02:07 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Findhorn Scotland money conference

August 14-18 2010; most of the details are here: [link to www.findhorncollege.com]

The 2 megabyte PDF download has little or nothing more than on the page linked above.
[link to www.findhorncollege.com]

This announcement comes from
John Rogers
Value for People
[link to www.valueforpeople.co.uk]

and

The International Journal for Community Currency Research (group - of which I am a member)
IJCCR website: [link to www.geog.le.ac.uk]

If you look long enough you might discover this writing on a UK site about what Thomas Edison & Henry Ford had to say about financing the Muscle Shoals project:
[link to www.prosperityuk.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 02:28 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Get rid of the money system; then get rid of governments (a GLP thread)by altering the concepts of what money actually is.

One general error: the concept that only one system is possible and that is likely based upon a precious metal (pick your choice) is itself very limiting.

Try this for consideration:

Money exists as an extension of language by means of symbols and contracts that allow the ownership and distribution of real things by proxy.

All symbols of money are token in nature, and the underlying issue is the counterfeiting problem. (I define counterfeiting as lying with money symbols). The usage of precious metals for your tokens is essentially an anti-counterfeiting measure.

Once you grasp this principle, you start to see the truth in the old maxim "In commerce, truth is sovereign."

If a gold certificate can be valid money, recognize that a gold certificate is a warehouse receipt and if you can create a warehouse receipt for most of the products and commodities available to the market.

That leaves out the concept of hypothecating the promise to create and deliver value in the future - generally also recognized as having value. In fact, it is my conclusion that this (the Mandrake Mechanism) is a very very valuable aspect of the present system. However, you must read and understand what Auriti asked about the process involved in the assignment of value to money and the ownership thereafter to recognize that such a debt based monetary system can only be stabilized by setting up banks in an agency relationship to all creators of value and vesting the seigniorage in the people.

Demurrage in turn can be used to extract the cost of running this agency and precious metals can be used in a performance bond role where the same are recognized as a "store of value."

The issue of proper assignment of seigniorage is the underlying issue in the redemption of the strawman movement.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 02:45 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
"If a gold certificate can be valid money, recognize that a gold certificate is a warehouse receipt and if you can create a warehouse receipt for most of the products and commodities available to the market."


Drop the "if" and it reads properly:

If a gold certificate can be valid money, recognize that a gold certificate is a warehouse receipt and you can create a warehouse receipt for most of the products and commodities available to the market.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2010 02:48 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Two topics to search, read, and understand:

[link to www.google.com]
[link to www.google.com]

report back with your conclusions
m&v
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05/19/2010 03:01 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442



agreed - imagination or a thiaoouban flavour?
Levi Philos
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05/23/2010 03:36 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Alfred Nobel never funded a prize in economics.

He knew economics is not nor was it ever a true science.

There is a prize in economics named after Nobel and it is referred to as a "Nobel Prize" but it is funded by others.

Economics is more a religion than any science, and current events as the knowledge and understanding of the fraud spreads is really a collapse of a religious belief.

Your understanding of events will be better also if you see it as the collapse of a religious belief.
Levi Philos
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05/24/2010 12:11 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
A truer version of the NESARA story: [link to proliberty.com]

NESARA: Setting the record straight

NESARA was originally the work of systems analyst Dr. Harvey Barnard who, in 1996, attempted to inspire a grassroots monetary education and legislator-outreach effort to compel economic policy reform in the U.S. before it was too late. The term "NESARA" was coopted by the "Dove of Oneness" and a strange cast of occultic characters. Whether "Dove" et. al are "covert agents of the dark forces" or just petty opportunists, they have marginalized the name of Dr. Barnard and his efforts. NESARA, which was Dr. Barnard’s well-intended, albiet partially flawed, attempt at monetary reform, is now synonymous with the promise of alien political intervention, celestially-sanctioned fiat-money payouts and secret acts of Congress passed under pressure from the White Knights—an anonymous cadre of benevolent power-elites working behind the scenes to deliver the people of earth into an enlightened age of peace, love and prosperity. Nearly all of our readers are aware of NESARA and many more have an emotional or financial interest in the truth about the occultic perversion of NESARA while others believe they have a spiritual investment in helping The Dove of Oneness et. al deliver NESARA. We hope that the following report will help our readers better understand NESARA so their finite energies and resources may be expended where they will be most useful.

By Anne Wilder Chamberlain

Since the late 1990s, the term "NESARA" has come up in both patriot and new age circles as the ultimate solution to America’s financial woes. At last, many people were given hope that there were lightworkers secretly working within our own government that would rescue us from the satanic clutches of an out-of-control military-industrial complex. In fact, NESARA is an acronym for the "National Economic Stabilization And Recovery Act," an economic reform proposal drafted by Dr. Harvey Barnard. This proposal was promptly hijacked by a few con-artists seizing an opportunity to prey on the ignorant and their monies. Their co-opted version is the NESARA most people have come to know.

Systems analysis

Dr. Harvey Barnard earned a Ph.D. in Applied Science specializing in Systems Philosophy. Married to the girl down the street, he worked most of his adult life serving heavy industry in technical and engineering fields as a systems troubleshooter, educator, and consultant. He started his search for the root cause and solutions to America’s social problems in the 1960s when a professor at Louisiana State University remarked that social and economic problems could be analyzed and solved with the same tools and techniques used to solve industrial problems. For more than 30 years he studied currency, banking, economics, taxes, law, philosophy, history, sociology, and politics using the analytical principles of systems theory.

In the late 1980s Dr. Barnard developed his NESARA legislative proposal for monetary and fiscal policy reform in order to double the standard of living for every American within one generation. In 1996 he printed 1,000 copies of Draining the Swamp, which contained his NESARA proposal, and sent them to members of Congress and others, believing the proposal would pass quickly on its merits. It included replacing the income tax with a national sales tax, abolishing compound interest on secured loans and returning to a bimetallic currency.

Based on a theory that debt is the number one economic factor inhibiting the growth of the economy and compound interest the number one "moral evil" and reason for debt, Dr. Barnard made several attempts to draw political attention to the problems he saw in the U.S. economy.

The proposals were never introduced by Congress, although the Treasury Department acknowledged them and Congressman Ron Paul once commented on them. In 1999 Dr. Bernard released the proposal to the public domain and published it on the internet at his website at www.nesara.org. In 2001 he established the NESARA Institute, a non-profit educational organization that maintains the website.

The loonies latch on...

Go to the site for the balance of this story.
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 12:13 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The Shaini Goodwin viewpoint: July 2004

[link to www.nesara.us]

Frankly, I doubt she was writing the original copy.
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 04:17 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The current Coast to Coast show Sunday night with George Knapp features an interview of Joseph P. Farrell and discussion of his book BABYLON'S BANKSTERS.

A very interesting discussion and one that should be made generally available as an MP3 file.

The book is available from the publisher Feral House for ~$20

[link to feralhouse.com]

and at Amazon for $14 + S&H
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 10:51 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Stephan Molyneux "It's Not Your Debt" [link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 10:53 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Terra Libra reports #07b #TL07B: The Nature of Government [link to www.buildfreedom.com]

and #TL06: Discourse on Voluntary Servitude [link to www.buildfreedom.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/24/2010 10:54 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Chris Martenson video series: [link to www.chrismartenson.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 06:16 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Are you a "Free Range Farm Animal?"

Stephan Molyneux on understanding how you were enslaved:

#1: [link to www.youtube.com]
#2: [link to www.youtube.com]
#3: [link to www.youtube.com]
#4: [link to www.youtube.com]

Number 3 is his most watched video.
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 06:27 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
William Jennings Bryan gave his famous speech where the phrase "You shall not press upon the bow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold" at a Democratic convention in the year 1896. This was a direct result of the 1873 coinage act. You can see a U-Tube recording of this speech here: [link to www.youtube.com] Three minutes, twenty nine seconds. Other places have the transcript.

Yamaguchy netfirms has the book written in 1899 titled "The Coming Battle" by Martin Walbert where the central discussion is over whether gold or silver is a better backing for money: [link to www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com] Other Yamaguchy books include several by Eustace Mullins, Cooglan, and another famous book BABYLONIAN WOE by David Astle. See: [link to www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com]

The Wizard of Money series (mp3 audio files) and pdf transcripts are found here: [link to www.altruists.org] along with a bunch of related material.

Slave Revolt has the MONEY MASTERS video as well as other related material: [link to mysite.verizon.net]
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 07:27 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
“Credit as a Public Utility:
The Solution to the Economic Crisis”

A Video in Six Parts

Written and Produced by Richard C. Cook

©2009 by Richard C. Cook. All Rights Reserved.

Part One of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“Our Early Political Leaders Warned Us Against the Banking Interests”

Early U.S. statesmen, such as Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Andrew Jackson worked to free the nation from control by the bankers who had been behind the establishment of the First and Second Banks of the United States. During the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln implemented a true democratic currency by spending Greenbacks directly into circulation without borrowing from the banks. These measures allowed the U.S. to develop for much of the 19th century largely free from bankers’ control. By the end of the century, this had changed, and the bankers were taking over. Click Here

[link to video.google.com]

Part Two of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“The Federal Reserve System: The Bankers Take Over”

President Lincoln’s Greenback system worked but was undermined and replaced by the financiers who got Congress to pass the National Banking Acts of 1863 and 1864, then the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. The United States now became a nation dominated by the financial elite, the banks, and a debt-based monetary system. Consequently, the 20th Century was one of constant cycles of inflation and deflation resulting in the economic chaos we see today.

[link to video.google.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 07:28 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
“Credit as a Public Utility:
The Solution to the Economic Crisis”

A Video in Six Parts

Written and Produced by Richard C. Cook

Part Three of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“The Collapse of the Financial System”

The collapse we are seeing today began in the financial system, not the producing economy. The crisis started with the housing bubble which the Federal Reserve created by cutting interest rates and then brought own by raising them. The trigger of the 2008 bank meltdown was refusal by European banks to purchase any more “toxic” U.S. debt based on mortgages and sold as securities. Now, with the decline in equity values, the burden of debt in our economy has grown even larger. Thus a renewal of bank lending will not solve the problem, while the economic stimulus program of the Obama administration is likewise insufficient to restore economic health.

[link to video.google.com]

Part Four of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“What is Credit and Who Should Control It?”

Fractional reserve banking is the process by which banks create credit out of thin air. But despite abuses of the system, credit is still a crucial part of modern economics. An enlightened concept of governance would view credit as a public utility. This means that government must take back the control of credit from the private financiers.

[link to video.google.com]

Part Five of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“The Gap Between Prices and Income”

One of the most important and least understood concepts in modern economics is the existence of a gap between prices and purchasing power. This gap results when a portion of prices must be set aside as business and private savings. The money is then used by the financial system for lending and speculation. Keynesian economics takes control of some of the savings through government deficit spending but is still a compromise with control of the economy by the financiers. In fact Keynesian economics has helped cause the collapsing debt pyramid. A better system would be to provide consumers with a National Dividend as a way to monetize the continuous appreciation of the producing economy.

videoplay?docid=3035089455833762689

Part Six of Six Parts: Credit As A Public Utility: The Solution to the Economic Crisis

“The Greenback and National Dividend Solutions”

The U.S. should convert to a system where the money supply is created by the federal government by being spent into circulation without government borrowing or taxation as was done with the Greenbacks. The Federal Reserve should no longer be a bank of issue. Additionally, a National Dividend should be paid directly to the people. The “Cook Plan” calls for the initial distribution of vouchers in the amount of $1,000 a month plus a new system of community savings banks. Greenbacks combined with a National Dividend will create a non-inflationary democratic currency and transform the economy of the United States.

[link to video.google.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 10:39 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
The Auriti reference is to his piece "THE INDUCTION OF VALUE TO MONEY AND THE OWNERSHIP THEREOF"

A closely related ancillary is the Mundell explanation of Gresham's law.

There is nothing wrong with electronic entries as money so long as these entries are accurate and true to facts. Neither is there anything wrong with paper symbols as money.

IT IS PROPER ASSIGNMENT OF SEIGNIORAGE TO THE PEOPLE WHO DO THINGS AND CREATE THINGS THAT IS IMPORTANT.

Money is a social mnemonic function. Check out Narayana Kocherlakota on money as a social memory. Kocherlakota is head of the Minnesota fed right now.

Interest can be thought of as a method of providing for professional administration (there will never be a "free" money system), however demurrage is a far better mechanism for providing for professional administration.

Additionally, all money systems must provide insurance like functions along with reputation recording and performance bonds. Much of what already exists in economic literature is correct; however, some spectacular errors of the axiomatic variety exist within this extant system.

Money should be thought of not as "holding value" but rather as a system of communicating value - thus my statement that money is a special branch of language.
Anonymous Coward
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05/25/2010 11:55 PM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Tuesday, May 25, 2010, Nathan's Economic Edge; link at bottom.

Martin Armstrong: Immoral – Not – Illegal, A Crisis in Ethics Repeating the 1930’s

This is a very good paper from Martin in which he chastises the argument that Goldman has done nothing illegal… just immoral. He sees and draws parallels to the Great Depression – that’s interesting because he repeatedly claims that we’re not repeating the Great Depression. In fact, the parallels are staggering. However, I agree that this is no Great Depression, it is far worse; it is a nation and possibly world changing series of events.

Martin discusses many legal issues, on this subject he is definitely spot on! The lack of jury trials, the extreme rate of conviction, the growth in the number of Federal Prisoners are all signs of a breakdown of the system. These types of breakdowns occur when the power structure gets one-sided. Once this occurs, rebellion is not far behind. And ultimately what happens is that the people lose CONFIDENCE in the government. This has and IS occurring now. I personally don’t trust ANYTHING I hear or read at this point – economic statistics are a lie, accounting is a fraud, and I am completely unsure how to read the events of the world as I believe what’s really occurring is being spun to the public. And I KNOW that the real power structure is NOT the structure presented for our consumption.

The markets are no longer real, they are simulated and controlled by a very few players! Martin nails the point that the players in the markets are not there serving a purpose for society, they are there for their own “egotistical hedonism.”

Near the end of this paper he quotes Thrasymachus, who discussing how the “just” are always the losers to the “unjust” memorably says, “My meaning will be most clearly seen if we turn that highest form of injustice in which the criminal is the happiest of men, and the sufferers or those who refuse to do injustice are the most miserable – that is to say tyranny, which by fraud and force takes away the property of others…”

It seems to me that we have arrived at that destination… where those who stand behind their morals and ethics suffer while those who stand behind fraud and force take away the property of others. We are there, it is the end of the line for CONFIDENCE, and it is this that is at the foundation of the rule of law upon which capital either forms or flees.

[link to economicedge.blogspot.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 12:21 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Thanks to GLP member Shingen:

Thread: The current money system (and why it's gotta go)

The Current Money System and Why it Has to Go.

Youtube: [link to www.youtube.com]
Levi Philos
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05/26/2010 01:10 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Centralized power and centralized money form a symbiotic pair; neither can exist without the other.

Money is a system of communicating ownership of real things by proxy.

The idea that only one system is possible is part of the problem.

Hayek pointed out in his book THE DENATIONALIZATION OF MONEY that competition in money formats could itself be a stabilizing factor. Ronald Coase pointed out in his prize in economics named after Alfred Nobel that people will use the system of least extractive cost.

What Hayek failed to point out is with a single monetary system you can pass regulatory laws and hire people to watch and regulate financial institutions, but with competition in monetary formats corruption becomes part of the overhead costs. In a competitive environment financial institutions are forced to police themselves to keep overhead down or they lose their customer base.

Banking will be forced in time into an agency relationship to all producers of value.

Nothing I have written prohibits usage of precious metal coins in direct exchange. However, other methods that involve tokens of little or no intrinsic value are also possible.
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 01:17 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
bump
Levi Philos
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05/26/2010 01:32 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
Also worth a search: Antal Fekete on the "Real Bills Doctrine"

It is my position (not shared by Fekete) that the "real bills" end up circulating as the real medium of exchange and the gold held in deposits are actually functioning as performance bonds.

The failure of LETS systems to flourish and spread is due to four factors:

1) Lack of a model that provides for professional full-time administration, and:
2) Lack of good commercially enforceable contracts, and:
3) Lack of a system of performance bonds, and:
4) Even though LETS pretends to be a mutual credit system, proponents of LETS have failed to understand and implement the Mandrake Mechanism that allows the hypothecation of promises to create and deliver value in the future.
susano

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05/26/2010 01:33 AM
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Re: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments
5 stars for the title alone!

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