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40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass

 
Traditional Catholic
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02/16/2010 10:37 PM
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40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
The Third Secret of Fatima (released in 1960)proclaimed the coming apostasy and heresy within the Church and a great falling away.
It was a clear sign of the "Last Days".
Aid it was never more obvious than now.


Barring the Crucifixion, the most egregious act ever committed by the human race has been the promulgation by Giovanni Battista Montini (Paul VI) of the New Mass 40 years ago, April 3, 1969. That the authorities in charge of Almighty God's Church replaced the Apostolic Mass with a Protestantized ecumenical worship service is by far worse than all the massacres, genocides, murders (including abortion) and rapes ever committed.

While such a contention may sound "extreme" in the present secular humanistic epoch, from a theological perspective, offenses against God beginning in the Old Testament days were always considered more heinous in nature than those committed by men against their brethren. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass instituted by Christ Himself is the preeminent act of worship that can be offered by the Triune God’s creatures which makes its substitution of the New Mass an utter abomination. The creators of the New Mass and those who have knowingly continued to support it will undoubtedly face the same eternal fate as those treasonous souls who have betrayed Christ and His Church down through the ages beginning with Judas Iscariot.

Paul VI's Mass is really the culmination of Western man's revolt from Almighty God which began on a societal scale with the heresies of the 16th century "reformers." While most of Europe gradually succumbed to the spiritual insanity of Protestantism, the Church held to Sacred Tradition until the neo-Modernist onslaught of Vatican II led, in part, by none other than Fr. Ratzinger.

The new religion concocted during the Council needed an act of worship to reflect its beliefs which Paul VI and the New Mass's principle architect, Hannibal Bugnini, willingly supplied. The pusillanimity of the Faithful at the time left the Church ripe for the likes of Benedict-Ratzinger to sow their destructive seeds and within a generation the ancient Faith had been replaced. Although Paul VI, Bugnini and their henchmen bear the overwhelming responsibility for the New Mass, the Catholic laity and clergy will also share in the Divine wrath for not resisting the innovators. If only a tenth of Catholics at the time had refused to go along with the liturgical changes, the Conciliar Revolution would have been stopped in its tracks.

Besides a direct violation of Divine precepts, the New Mass is an act of pure pride as man actually believes he can create a form of worship better than what Almighty God has prescribed. The New Mass conveys no sanctifying grace, but instead mocks God's Majesty; the audacity of the Conciliar Church knows no bounds!

Not surprisingly, little mention was made of this most infamous of dates by members of the neoconservative press a number of which have become some of Benedict-Ratzinger's most ardent cheerleaders after his election as Conciliar pope. Funny how some of the same commentators who were so critical of "Cardinal Ratzinger" now address him as "Holy Father" and praise him for his Moto Mess initiative. "Hypocrites" is the term the Divine Savior used to describe similar actions committed by those of His time.

The anniversary of the New Mass and the fact that Benedict-Ratzinger was one of the primary movers and shakers at the Second Vatican Council which spawned the abomination would apparently be difficult for any clear thinking traditional Catholic to reconcile. Yet, to neocons, blinded by papolatry, they believe that Benedict-Ratzinger is on the side of Tradition and is leading the fight for a Restoration. Unfortunately, under the (mis)leadership of Bernie Fellay, the Society of St. Pius X is traveling the same disastrous path as that of the neocons with his continued negotiations (sell out) with Newrome. His latest Rosary crusade for the conversion/consecration of Russia is yet another diversionary ploy to keep focus away from his talks with NewVatican. Hey, Bernie, what about the conversion of Newrome to the true Faith and a real consecration of your buddy, Benedict-Ratzinger, as an authentic Catholic bishop?! Maybe when this is accomplished, you can turn your attention to the conversion of Russia.

It would be instructive to recall what some of the Church’s saints have had to say about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and then reflect on what Paul VI did and his Conciliar successors who have continued to "celebrate" this sacrilegious monstrosity:

St. Lawrence Justinian: "There is no prayer or good work so great, so pleasing to God, so useful to us as the Mass."

St. Alphonsus: "Even God Himself could do nothing holier, better, or greater than the Mass."

St. John Chrysostom: "The Mass has just the same value as Calvary."

St. Bonaventure: "The Mass is a compendium of all God’s love, of all His benefits to men, and each Mass bestows on the World a benefit not less than what was conferred on it by the Incarnation."

Timothy of Jerusalem: "The world would have been destroyed long ago because of the sins of men, had it not been for the Mass. There is nothing that appeases the anger of God so much, nothing that obtains for us so many blessings as the Mass."

For 40 years, Almighty God, except, of course, in those faithful traditional Catholic outposts, has not been properly worshipped. Can anyone doubt that the moral and cultural depredation which has occurred over the past two generations has not been the result, in large measure, of Paul VI’s heinous act? Until the immemorial Mass of Tradition is restored, the Novus Ordo Mass eradicated, and all those who participated in the New Mass’s creation and its continuation are roundly condemned, Western man’s descent into greater depravity will continue.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:36 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
bump
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:43 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:45 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
It was long ago predicted that as the Traditional Catholic Movement gets stronger, it is only to be expected that there will be more and more anti-traditionalists. Because they cannot rationally deal with the arguments of legitimate traditional Roman Catholicism, these "smear merchants," as they have been called, try to attack the persons who promote those arguments, particularly traditional priests, but also traditional laymen. Such people take a leaf out of the book of the political strategist Niccolo Machievelli
(1469-1527), who wrote: "If you can't attack the argument, attack the man."
Or, as Francis Cardinal Spellman (1889-1967) replied to his accusers: "What
can you expect from pigs but grunts?"

A Wisconsin paper printed a bizarre story about the murdered Fr.
Alfred Kunz, calling into question his priestly status. This is just one
example of an accusation hurled at a dedicated priest, who was admired by his
people for his orthodoxy and spirituality. One thinks also of the attacks
against the priestly status of Fr. Nicholas Gruner, of Ontario, who has worn
himself out trying to promote veneration of Our Blessed Lady around the
world.

And against Fr. Paul Wickens of New Jersey, who has a long-
established and flourishing traditional chapel. A new Mass came into town
and didn't like the competition the traditional chapel presented, so certain
individuals decided to call into question his priestly status. Similar
attacks have been made against every other traditional priest of any repute.

Not just traditional priests independent of the diocesan structure
suffer these attacks, but even the "indult" societies, who retain their
connection to the diocesan apparatus to maintain a tenuous Novus Ordo
"approval," are getting knocked in the head. Fr. Paul Carr, the new (2000)
District Superior of North America for the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter,
recently wrote: "the amount of unreliable information out there is immense,
too much for us to try and [sic] correct, and often impossible to do so when
we try." Fr. Arnaud Devillers, the new (2000) Superior General of the
Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, refused to answer a "when did you
stop beating your wife" questionnaire sent to him about his orders.

Fr. Peter Scott, lately U.S. Director of the Society of St. Pius X,
was charged with having invalid orders conferred by a bishop with Masonic
sympathies. And on and on the calumnies of the anti-traditionalists go, who
have spread their malicious calumnies against:

Pope Benedict XVI (Novus Ordo)
Pope John Paul II (Novus Ordo)
Abp. Marcel Lefebvre (SSPX)
Abp. Ngo-Dinh Thuc (Independent)
Bp. Terrance Fulham (Independent)
Bp. Clarence Kelly (SSPV)
Bp. Robert McKenna (Independent)
Bp. Mark Pivarunis (CMRI)
Bp. Donald Sanborn (Independent)
Bp. Thom Sebastian (SSCR)
Bp. Richard Williamson (SSPX)
Fr. Anthony Cekada (Independent)
Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt (Independent)
Fr. Arnaud Devillers (FSSP)
Fr. Nicholas Gruner (Independent)
Fr. Alfred Kunz+ (Diocese)
Fr. Peter Scott (SSPX)
Fr. Paul Wickens (Independent)

and this is only a small list of the targets. What you will notice is that
these attacks are against every segment of the Traditional Movement:
Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen, Society of St. Pius V, Society of St.
Pius X, Fraternity of St. Peter, independents, and others.

Typical tactics involve calling a traditional priest "Thuc" or "Old
Catholic" or "Sede-vacantist" or "renegade" or "rebel" or "schismatic." As
the attackers become more and more frustrated at the lack of effect their
charges have in the ears of people who know these priests and their
traditional solidity, they will say wilder and wilder things. What was once
only "disobedient" will become "illicit"; what was once "illicit" will become
"invalid."

And what is the caliber of these anti-traditionalists? They presume
to set themselves up as a kangaroo court to judge priests' orders, yet
deviate from the Church's teaching on sacramental theology. One such attack
against a traditional priest was so full of basic theological errors that the
author unwittingly made himself a laughing-stock to anyone who had any
semblance of knowledge about Roman Catholic sacramental theology.

Such people are obviously unaware of the principle of Catholic
Sacramental Theology, "Actus, praesertim adeo solemnis qualis est ordinatio,
habendus est ut validus, donec invaliditas non evincatur," prescribing that
the presumption in the case of the Sacraments, most especially in the case of
Holy Orders, is always in favor of validity, not invalidity.

If a priest or layman does nothing, everyone leaves him alone.
However, if he fights like a St. Paul for the traditional Catholic Faith, he
becomes a prime target. Remember, Scripture tells us that there were early
Christians who presumed to challenge even St. Paul's orders and to lead
astray the laymen who were trying to stay with the Apostolic Tradition!
Nihil sub sole novum.

It is bad enough when such things come from the Novus Ordo apparatus,
but it is particularly sad when they come from the supposedly traditional
side, particularly from those who are themselves under attack from others
(perhaps they are trying to divert attention from their own situations?). As
the Cardinal Archbishop of Genoa said: "If you would have to spend your time
responding to all accusations, there would not be any time left to work for
Christ and His Church, but only to respond to calumnies." Moreover, the
internet has become a virtual cesspool for erroneous personal information
circulated about people.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:46 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 864203


Don't confuse Traditional Catholicism with modern day Catholicism.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:47 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
PS: to be saved, you must ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins, and ask Him to be the Lord (master) of your life.

Ask Him to come into your heart, and He will change you. You will know a life you have never known before.

I challenge all Roman Catholics to do this, sincerely, before answering any posts.

Then you can report back.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 07:49 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.


Don't confuse Traditional Catholicism with modern day Catholicism.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 893432


My position remains the same. They are leading people into hell, and were 40 years ago also.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 08:24 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Catholicism whether traditional or modern, Protestantism in almost every shade and color, they all make a mockery of the Scriptures in one way or the other. Therefore the Scriptures have NO choice but to class them as the mother and the daughters. And who is a protestant? A protesting catholic, that's what he/she is.
Classiccom
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02/17/2010 08:29 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Why not have a real traditional Catholic movement

Yes, go back to the traditional Latin mass, but still have the native languages available. The original Christians did not have to listen in a foreign tongue.

Did early Christians focus on prayers to the saints and the BV Mary ? Today's Cath trads talk about Fatima more than the word of God in Scriptures.

The marks of post 1870 end times Catholicsm - emphasis on how great the pope is ( mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most infallible of them all ?) and the crazy, anti-scripture concern for BVM aparitions. This caused the Vatican II problem - a drift away from scripture and a false importance of the pope. THe pope is supposed to be the leader in preaching the Gospel of Christ, not write his own gospel. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision warning him the Church would be chastised and even destroyed within a 100 years. Good Catholics throw away the bible, and all common sense when they ignore the reason God would chastise evil in the Church. The high and mighty infallibles have totally trashed the Chruch and permitted the enemies of Christianity to take over, just like Leo XIII and Pius X's visions indicated.

Time for the Church to repent and bring back healing in these last days. Then we can bring back the Protestants and have one fold based on the truth of Jesus Christ, not the false ecumenism and friendship with the world as the Vatican II false popes have promoted.

Any Catholics have the guts to be a real Christian Catholic ? Luke 18:8 suggests not.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 08:33 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 864203


You're entitled to your beliefs due to God's gift of freewill.

Doesn't mean that your beliefs are true though.
kat

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02/17/2010 08:39 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
So exactly what are you advocating here? Stay away from the Novus Ordo Mass? I have heard this before. Going to this Mass is worse than not going at all.

Puts people between a very hard rock and a hard place.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 08:43 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
"Can anyone doubt that the moral and cultural depredation which has occurred over the past two generations has not been the result, in large measure, of Paul VI’s heinous act"

lol- yes, i can

lets see, genocide, torture, etc- throughout time- before and after any christianiy thing

idiot
platzee
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02/17/2010 09:08 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Catholicism whether traditional or modern, Protestantism in almost every shade and color, they all make a mockery of the Scriptures in one way or the other. Therefore the Scriptures have NO choice but to class them as the mother and the daughters. And who is a protestant? A protesting catholic, that's what he/she is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 893461



Right on.

Protestant churches are just a spin off of the catholic church. As long as they are still celebrating the pagan holidays of christmas and easter they are an abomination and a filthy rag to God. Not to mention the 501c3 status.

Come out of it people!!!!!
Traditional Catholic
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02/17/2010 09:11 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Its no wonder that non-Catholics look at the Church as a laughingstock and Satanic bed of evil.

Why not have a real traditional Catholic movement

Yes, go back to the traditional Latin mass, but still have the native languages available. The original Christians did not have to listen in a foreign tongue.

Did early Christians focus on prayers to the saints and the BV Mary ? Today's Cath trads talk about Fatima more than the word of God in Scriptures.

The marks of post 1870 end times Catholicsm - emphasis on how great the pope is ( mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most infallible of them all ?) and the crazy, anti-scripture concern for BVM aparitions. This caused the Vatican II problem - a drift away from scripture and a false importance of the pope. THe pope is supposed to be the leader in preaching the Gospel of Christ, not write his own gospel. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision warning him the Church would be chastised and even destroyed within a 100 years. Good Catholics throw away the bible, and all common sense when they ignore the reason God would chastise evil in the Church. The high and mighty infallibles have totally trashed the Chruch and permitted the enemies of Christianity to take over, just like Leo XIII and Pius X's visions indicated.

Time for the Church to repent and bring back healing in these last days. Then we can bring back the Protestants and have one fold based on the truth of Jesus Christ, not the false ecumenism and friendship with the world as the Vatican II false popes have promoted.

Any Catholics have the guts to be a real Christian Catholic ? Luke 18:8 suggests not.
 Quoting: Classiccom 800577



There is a large Traditionalist movement and has been for many years.

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has been promoting Traditionalist ideals since it was first started. Unfortunately, the current leader is more beholding to Rome than his predecessors and has changed the path of SSPX.
[link to www.sspx.org]

Marcel Lefebvre, the courageous traditional archbishop who stood up
to the New Churchof the New Order and called it "not Catholic," died in 1991.
In 1994 one of the bishops consecrated by the Archbishop, Bernie Fellay, was
elected Superior General of the SSPX. Over the intervening years,
particularly after 2000, Fellay hatched a plan, known as the "Hindenburg
Plan," to make the Archbishop's SSPX into a Neo-SSPX, which would sell out to
the Novus Ordo condemned by the Archbishop, in order to gain a seat at the
Novus Ordo table in Newchurch.

Although the Archbishop had grave reservations about the "Mass of
1962," engineered by the same Freemason presbyter, Hannibal Bugnini, who
fabricated the invalid Novus Ordo service of 1969 with his Committee of Six
Protestant Ministers, Fellay embraced this corrupted version of the Mass,
particularly after Benedict-Ratzinger's Great "Motu" Mess Hoax of 2007, which
attempted to replace the Traditional Latin Mass with this corrupted Mass in
the minds of traditional Catholics.

Fellay also took other steps to sell out to the Novus Ordo. Around
the world he replaced at various SSPX sites traditional Catholic priests with
Novus Ordo presbyters merely installed under Bugnini's invalid New Ordinal of
1968, not ordained in the traditional rite.

Fellay has also announced that he is essentially willing to accept
all the unCatholic teachings of Vatican II (1962-1965), which were
specifically condemned as being unCatholic by Archbishop Lefebvre. The Neo-
SSPX under Fellay is clearly moving toward joining the Novus Ordo and can no
longer be recommended as a traditional organization.

The Remnant Newspaper is also a Traditionalist entity.
[link to www.remnantnewspaper.com]

Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
Judge for yourself.

October 22, 1967 was the most ominous and frightening day in the two
thousand year history of the Catholic Church, for that day saw a legalised
contradiction of hitherto inviolate decrees and norms guarding the Canon of the
Mass. That day brought a new era of darkness into the world - the extinguishing
of the true sacrificial and sacramental Eucharistic Christ from the majority of
our churches. It was on that day the mass was struck a fatal blow.

During the early years of agitation for the introduction of the
vernacular into the Mass, and even during the climax of the movement when the
matter was debated at the First Session of Vatican II (1962), Catholics were
always assured that, even if the vernacular should be introduced, the Canon of
the Mass would remain untouched in its centuries-old inviolate Latin form. And
rightly so, for the Canon is the heart and centre and essence of the Eucharistic
Sacrifice. But since the granting, in 1963, by the Constitution on the Sacred
Liturgy, of permission to employ the vernacular in some parts of the Mass, a
literal cascade of subsequent changes and increased vernacularisation has now
culminated in the introduction of the new "English Canon", yielding what is, in
effect, an all-vernacular Mass - notwithstanding Article 36 of that same
Constitution and the decrees of the Council of Trent prohibiting an all-
vernacular Mass.

Thus, that which has for thirteen centuries has been considered
inviolate, has now been disturbingly altered. Something ominously different from
the Canon we have always known now occupies the heart and centre of our Catholic
worship - something in which the very words of consecration have been savaged,
striking horror into the hearts of Catholics everywhere and engendering much
protest and intense misgivings. The protest would have been infinitely more
thundering were it not for the fact that the clergy and the laity have been
gradually "conditioned" by change after change in recent years, to the point of
expecting change as the order of the day and the "mind of the Church."
platzee
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02/17/2010 09:16 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Why not have a real traditional Catholic movement

Yes, go back to the traditional Latin mass, but still have the native languages available. The original Christians did not have to listen in a foreign tongue.

Did early Christians focus on prayers to the saints and the BV Mary ? Today's Cath trads talk about Fatima more than the word of God in Scriptures.

The marks of post 1870 end times Catholicsm - emphasis on how great the pope is ( mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most infallible of them all ?) and the crazy, anti-scripture concern for BVM aparitions. This caused the Vatican II problem - a drift away from scripture and a false importance of the pope. THe pope is supposed to be the leader in preaching the Gospel of Christ, not write his own gospel. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision warning him the Church would be chastised and even destroyed within a 100 years. Good Catholics throw away the bible, and all common sense when they ignore the reason God would chastise evil in the Church. The high and mighty infallibles have totally trashed the Chruch and permitted the enemies of Christianity to take over, just like Leo XIII and Pius X's visions indicated.

Time for the Church to repent and bring back healing in these last days. Then we can bring back the Protestants and have one fold based on the truth of Jesus Christ, not the false ecumenism and friendship with the world as the Vatican II false popes have promoted.

Any Catholics have the guts to be a real Christian Catholic ? Luke 18:8 suggests not.
 Quoting: Classiccom 800577



The church of the last days will be the one world church which you will try to force upon people like me to be apart of. And when I refuse you will advocate the death of not only me but my wife and children as well.

Wait the priest may try to molest my children. When I think of a priest this is what comes to mind? Why?
Traditional Catholic
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02/17/2010 09:23 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Why not have a real traditional Catholic movement

Yes, go back to the traditional Latin mass, but still have the native languages available. The original Christians did not have to listen in a foreign tongue.

Did early Christians focus on prayers to the saints and the BV Mary ? Today's Cath trads talk about Fatima more than the word of God in Scriptures.

The marks of post 1870 end times Catholicsm - emphasis on how great the pope is ( mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most infallible of them all ?) and the crazy, anti-scripture concern for BVM aparitions. This caused the Vatican II problem - a drift away from scripture and a false importance of the pope. THe pope is supposed to be the leader in preaching the Gospel of Christ, not write his own gospel. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision warning him the Church would be chastised and even destroyed within a 100 years. Good Catholics throw away the bible, and all common sense when they ignore the reason God would chastise evil in the Church. The high and mighty infallibles have totally trashed the Chruch and permitted the enemies of Christianity to take over, just like Leo XIII and Pius X's visions indicated.

Time for the Church to repent and bring back healing in these last days. Then we can bring back the Protestants and have one fold based on the truth of Jesus Christ, not the false ecumenism and friendship with the world as the Vatican II false popes have promoted.

Any Catholics have the guts to be a real Christian Catholic ? Luke 18:8 suggests not.



The church of the last days will be the one world church which you will try to force upon people like me to be apart of. And when I refuse you will advocate the death of not only me but my wife and children as well.

Wait the priest may try to molest my children. When I think of a priest this is what comes to mind? Why?
 Quoting: platzee 893497



We are highly critical of rapist and pedophile Priests and those (like the Pope) who protect them. All should be exposed and thrown in prison.

This is not the Inquisition.
You can belong wherever you want.

The true Church is not represented by the abomination that is now entrenched in Rome.
a passing cloud

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02/17/2010 09:25 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
i have a question for the OP. would it be better for a catholic to shun mass altogether than to attend this allegedly sacreligious novus ordo mass?

i was under the impression that if a pope said there was to be a change in the catholic mass, that it had to be considered binding as he was the vicar of christ.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2010 09:26 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.


Don't confuse Traditional Catholicism with modern day Catholicism.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 893432


Don't confuse paganistic Catholicism with Christianity.
kat

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02/17/2010 09:30 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Wait the priest may try to molest my children. When I think of a priest this is what comes to mind? Why?

I don't think we can blame the New Mass for the molestation of children. Historically this goes back much further than that. Because we are human we will always have these tendencies in our population. When it takes place by trusted people in authority, then there is a problem. It's not just the RCC. Jewish and Christian religions have been in the news lately for abusing children.
No good deed goes unpunished.
platzee
User ID: 893497
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02/17/2010 09:30 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
[link to www.youtube.com]


Absolutely sickening!!!!!

Worship Jesus the Christ not the pope.
kat

User ID: 863839
United States
02/17/2010 09:31 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Should Roman Catholics attend and participate in the Novus Ordo Mass? What is you position on this?
No good deed goes unpunished.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:33 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
OK. I have to speak up here.

I used to be Catholic and now I am Protestant.

I believe the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Revelations, along with the rest of the apostate church.

The Roman Catholic church (RC) DOES NOT GIVE THE ROUTE TO SALVATION, WHICH IS BEING BORN AGAIN, ATTESTED BY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

The RC keeps people distracted with bits of truth, but they withhold the greatest truths. They allow people to live lives of dissipation, existing in an unsaved state. They deceive their congregants while fleecing them. They lead them into hell.


You're entitled to your beliefs due to God's gift of freewill.

Doesn't mean that your beliefs are true though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 638209


It doesn't mean you can create your own truth either.
Traditional Catholic
User ID: 893500
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02/17/2010 09:34 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Should Roman Catholics attend and participate in the Novus Ordo Mass? What is you position on this?
 Quoting: kat


This is a decision that is not taken lightly, but such
people may take solace from the fact that many Catholics are
simultaneously struggling with the very same issue, now more than ever
as the American Catholic Church departs more and more from the
Traditional Latin Mass and introduces more and more novelties into the
Church's central act of worship.

This is no new difficulty. We read in St. Paul's Second Epistle
to the Thessalonians that these early Christians were being subjected to
"operationem erroris, ut credant medacio" [a misleading influence that
they may believe falsehood] (2 Thess. 2:11). St. Paul's exhortation to
the Thessalonians was: "state et tenete traditiones, quas didicistis"
[stand firm, and hold the traditions that you have learned] (2 Thess.
2:15); in other words, cling to Sacred Tradition, from which, with
Sacred Scripture, the authentic Magisterium of the Church derives.

Catholics attending the Novus Ordo are confronted with a very
serious issue. Some considerations that they need to factor in include
the following:

(1) By continuing to subject themselves to unauthorized methods of
celebrating even the Novus Ordo, to sermons and catechesis tinged with
unorthodox doctrine, and to a Protestantized approach to the Mass, they
may be subjecting their faith to real peril.

(2) Catholic moral theology tells us to avoid proximate occasions
of sin, among which would be occasions where significant jeopardy is
posed to one's faith.

(3) By continuing to participate at Novus Ordo Masses, they could
be seen by others as approving of the whole unorthodox environment
surrounding the Novus Ordo, even though they do not in fact personally
approve. Thus, their mere presence at such Masses could provide scandal
to others.

(4) Obedience, as St. Thomas Aquinas explains, is a secondary
virtue subordinate to charity, or love of God. Obviously, the necessity
of obedience depends upon the person and thing to be obeyed. Obedience
to evil is a vice, not a virtue, and participation in irreverence and,
more so, sacrilege, is certainly a vice. Catholic moral theology has
always taught that even if the Pope were to command something that is
against the divine or natural law, then it would certainly be sinful for
anyone to obey him, since the virtue of obedience is opposed not only by
disobedience, but is also violated by excessive or indiscreet obedience,
which is the sin of servility.

No Catholic, for example, would argue the Nazistic principle
"befehl ist befehl" [an order is an order], e.g., that obedience to the
lawfully-elected German Chancellor would be necessary if he or his
representatives commanded one to kill an innocent man in a gas chamber.
It is a stark analogy, but to Catholics the Faith, the Mass, and the
Sacraments are as dear as life itself. This is the clear example that
was set for us by our predecessors, the Christian martyrs of every age,
and that has been set before us by the Church through the ages by its
veneration of martyrs for the faith as the greatest class of saints.

(5) Finally, there is that nagging question: is the Novus Ordo
valid? Or is it so contrary to Sacred Tradition and papal
pronouncements (especially Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum) of the last
twenty centuries that it must be considered invalid? Is it farther
removed from the Traditional Latin Mass than the Anglican liturgy, whose
ordinal (and by implication services) Pope Leo XIII pronounced to be invalid,
as
it did not intend to do as Christ and His Church intended?

Pope Innocent III, in his doctrinal letter "Cum Marthae circa,"
issued
in 1202, settled once and for all the question of the form of the words of
consecration for the Roman Rite, when he defined that the entire form as
found in the Missale Romanum are Christ's own words delivered to the Apostles
and through them to us, that the entire form is what Christ spoke and so the
entire form is necessary. The Novus Ordo does not use this form, not even
its Latin form. Pope Eugene IV confirmed the same doctrine in 1441 at the
17th Ecumenical Council (Florence, 1441).

The official definitions of the two Masses are strikingly
different. The New Mass is not a renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary,
but merely an "assembly of the people." The role of the priest is not
to offer sacrifice to God in the name of the people, but merely to
"preside," or "chair" the meeting.

If the official (but rarely-used) Latin version promulgated by
Pope Paul VI is valid, is the English translation, which departs widely
from the authentic meaning of the Latin, valid? Is even the English
translation valid, but are Masses in many parishes using it invalid
because invalid form or matter or intention is being used? Or is the
Novus Ordo valid, but illicit, in that it is celebrated in most parishes
in such a way that it is irreverent or even sacrilegious?

The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith instructed
the U.S. National Council of Catholic Bishops in a decision dated March
15, 1978: "It is particularly important to ensure careful observance of
the traditional theological interpretation about making of Eucharistic
bread, so that the faithful can be assured that every Eucharist is
celebrated with matter that is both valid and licit."

Apparently, this problem of Masses invalid because of defect of
matter was not corrected. A year later, according to a Letter from the
Cardinal Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith to the President of the [U.S.] National Council of Catholic
Bishops, as approved by Pope John Paul II on May 11, 1979, the
Congregation found evidence that priests "have mistakenly used an
element for the Eucharist other than genuine bread" after the NCCB's own
Committee on the Liturgy admitted "abuses in regard to the making of
bread for the Holy Eucharist."

Nor has the problem yet been corrected. The ingredients of the
"Eucharistic bread" used in one Michigan diocese in 1998 is clearly not
valid wheaten bread at all, but a cinnamon cracker: white flour, brown
sugar, salt, baking powder, cinnamon, honey, shortening, and water. The
ingredients used in a California diocese constitute a sugar cookie:
white flour, whole wheat flower, salt, sugar, baking powder, margarine.
Moreover, invalidating grape juice is being used instead of grape wine in
many dioceses.

In other words, to peel away the ecclesiastical language, invalid
Novus Ordo Masses have been celebrated in the dioceses of the United
States, and the faithful cannot be assured that the Novus Ordo Eucharist
is in fact valid, as bishops and priests in many dioceses in the United
States persist in using the same invalid matter. And an invalid Mass is
no Mass at all.

Moral theology does not require a Catholic, simply to fulfil his
Sunday obligation, to attend a sacrilegious Mass: one having sugar
cookies instead of unleavened bread, profane items set on or around the
altar, ad-libbed prayers, hosts dropped on the floor unceremoniously or
placed in unconsecrated hands, laypeople performing sacred actions
reserved to the ordained clergy, Gay Masses, Clown Masses, Dance Masses,
Children's Masses, etc. Have such present-day debacles in fact "crossed
the line" and become caricatures of the rightful Sacrifice of Calvary?

Even serious, tradition-minded Catholics who are exposed week
after week to the Novus Ordo cannot help but imbibe the unorthodox
attitudes to the Mass, the Sacraments, and the Faith itself, whether
they wish to or not. According to the ancient maxim: legem credendi
statuat lex supplicandi [the law of praying should determine the law of
believing].
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:35 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
PS:

We need to worship Jesus Christ, not the eucharist. Anything that claims to supercede the worship of Christ is heresy.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 892479
Sweden
02/17/2010 09:36 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
"replaced the Apostolic Mass with a Protestantized ecumenical worship service is by far worse than all the massacres, genocides, murders (including abortion) and rapes ever committed."

You do realise that this statement makes you (or who ever made it) out to be completely insane.

What your saying is that by replacing one hocus pocus ceremony with another they have commited a worse crime then genocide.

No healthy human being can agree with that.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:38 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Should Roman Catholics attend and participate in the Novus Ordo Mass? What is you position on this?


This is a decision that is not taken lightly, but such
people may take solace from the fact that many Catholics are
simultaneously struggling with the very same issue, now more than ever
as the American Catholic Church departs more and more from the
Traditional Latin Mass and introduces more and more novelties into the
Church's central act of worship.

This is no new difficulty. We read in St. Paul's Second Epistle
to the Thessalonians that these early Christians were being subjected to
"operationem erroris, ut credant medacio" [a misleading influence that
they may believe falsehood] (2 Thess. 2:11). St. Paul's exhortation to
the Thessalonians was: "state et tenete traditiones, quas didicistis"
[stand firm, and hold the traditions that you have learned] (2 Thess.
2:15); in other words, cling to Sacred Tradition, from which, with
Sacred Scripture, the authentic Magisterium of the Church derives.

Catholics attending the Novus Ordo are confronted with a very
serious issue. Some considerations that they need to factor in include
the following:

(1) By continuing to subject themselves to unauthorized methods of
celebrating even the Novus Ordo, to sermons and catechesis tinged with
unorthodox doctrine, and to a Protestantized approach to the Mass, they
may be subjecting their faith to real peril.

(2) Catholic moral theology tells us to avoid proximate occasions
of sin, among which would be occasions where significant jeopardy is
posed to one's faith.

(3) By continuing to participate at Novus Ordo Masses, they could
be seen by others as approving of the whole unorthodox environment
surrounding the Novus Ordo, even though they do not in fact personally
approve. Thus, their mere presence at such Masses could provide scandal
to others.

(4) Obedience, as St. Thomas Aquinas explains, is a secondary
virtue subordinate to charity, or love of God. Obviously, the necessity
of obedience depends upon the person and thing to be obeyed. Obedience
to evil is a vice, not a virtue, and participation in irreverence and,
more so, sacrilege, is certainly a vice. Catholic moral theology has
always taught that even if the Pope were to command something that is
against the divine or natural law, then it would certainly be sinful for
anyone to obey him, since the virtue of obedience is opposed not only by
disobedience, but is also violated by excessive or indiscreet obedience,
which is the sin of servility.

No Catholic, for example, would argue the Nazistic principle
"befehl ist befehl" [an order is an order], e.g., that obedience to the
lawfully-elected German Chancellor would be necessary if he or his
representatives commanded one to kill an innocent man in a gas chamber.
It is a stark analogy, but to Catholics the Faith, the Mass, and the
Sacraments are as dear as life itself. This is the clear example that
was set for us by our predecessors, the Christian martyrs of every age,
and that has been set before us by the Church through the ages by its
veneration of martyrs for the faith as the greatest class of saints.

(5) Finally, there is that nagging question: is the Novus Ordo
valid? Or is it so contrary to Sacred Tradition and papal
pronouncements (especially Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum) of the last
twenty centuries that it must be considered invalid? Is it farther
removed from the Traditional Latin Mass than the Anglican liturgy, whose
ordinal (and by implication services) Pope Leo XIII pronounced to be invalid,
as
it did not intend to do as Christ and His Church intended?

Pope Innocent III, in his doctrinal letter "Cum Marthae circa,"
issued
in 1202, settled once and for all the question of the form of the words of
consecration for the Roman Rite, when he defined that the entire form as
found in the Missale Romanum are Christ's own words delivered to the Apostles
and through them to us, that the entire form is what Christ spoke and so the
entire form is necessary. The Novus Ordo does not use this form, not even
its Latin form. Pope Eugene IV confirmed the same doctrine in 1441 at the
17th Ecumenical Council (Florence, 1441).

The official definitions of the two Masses are strikingly
different. The New Mass is not a renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary,
but merely an "assembly of the people." The role of the priest is not
to offer sacrifice to God in the name of the people, but merely to
"preside," or "chair" the meeting.

If the official (but rarely-used) Latin version promulgated by
Pope Paul VI is valid, is the English translation, which departs widely
from the authentic meaning of the Latin, valid? Is even the English
translation valid, but are Masses in many parishes using it invalid
because invalid form or matter or intention is being used? Or is the
Novus Ordo valid, but illicit, in that it is celebrated in most parishes
in such a way that it is irreverent or even sacrilegious?

The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith instructed
the U.S. National Council of Catholic Bishops in a decision dated March
15, 1978: "It is particularly important to ensure careful observance of
the traditional theological interpretation about making of Eucharistic
bread, so that the faithful can be assured that every Eucharist is
celebrated with matter that is both valid and licit."

Apparently, this problem of Masses invalid because of defect of
matter was not corrected. A year later, according to a Letter from the
Cardinal Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith to the President of the [U.S.] National Council of Catholic
Bishops, as approved by Pope John Paul II on May 11, 1979, the
Congregation found evidence that priests "have mistakenly used an
element for the Eucharist other than genuine bread" after the NCCB's own
Committee on the Liturgy admitted "abuses in regard to the making of
bread for the Holy Eucharist."

Nor has the problem yet been corrected. The ingredients of the
"Eucharistic bread" used in one Michigan diocese in 1998 is clearly not
valid wheaten bread at all, but a cinnamon cracker: white flour, brown
sugar, salt, baking powder, cinnamon, honey, shortening, and water. The
ingredients used in a California diocese constitute a sugar cookie:
white flour, whole wheat flower, salt, sugar, baking powder, margarine.
Moreover, invalidating grape juice is being used instead of grape wine in
many dioceses.

In other words, to peel away the ecclesiastical language, invalid
Novus Ordo Masses have been celebrated in the dioceses of the United
States, and the faithful cannot be assured that the Novus Ordo Eucharist
is in fact valid, as bishops and priests in many dioceses in the United
States persist in using the same invalid matter. And an invalid Mass is
no Mass at all.

Moral theology does not require a Catholic, simply to fulfil his
Sunday obligation, to attend a sacrilegious Mass: one having sugar
cookies instead of unleavened bread, profane items set on or around the
altar, ad-libbed prayers, hosts dropped on the floor unceremoniously or
placed in unconsecrated hands, laypeople performing sacred actions
reserved to the ordained clergy, Gay Masses, Clown Masses, Dance Masses,
Children's Masses, etc. Have such present-day debacles in fact "crossed
the line" and become caricatures of the rightful Sacrifice of Calvary?

Even serious, tradition-minded Catholics who are exposed week
after week to the Novus Ordo cannot help but imbibe the unorthodox
attitudes to the Mass, the Sacraments, and the Faith itself, whether
they wish to or not. According to the ancient maxim: legem credendi
statuat lex supplicandi [the law of praying should determine the law of
believing].
 Quoting: Traditional Catholic 893500


You should stop with the long-winded pseudo-mystical distractions. You are only fooling yourself. Jesus Christ is a person who died for your sins so that you might be reconciled to our Father in heaven, because you can only be reconciled in a state of holiness. Jesus was and is the only son of God (who had God's seed). He was God incarnate.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:40 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
"replaced the Apostolic Mass with a Protestantized ecumenical worship service is by far worse than all the massacres, genocides, murders (including abortion) and rapes ever committed."

You do realise that this statement makes you (or who ever made it) out to be completely insane.

What your saying is that by replacing one hocus pocus ceremony with another they have commited a worse crime then genocide.

No healthy human being can agree with that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 892479


Hear, hear!

I agree!
Traditional Catholic
User ID: 893500
United States
02/17/2010 09:42 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
"replaced the Apostolic Mass with a Protestantized ecumenical worship service is by far worse than all the massacres, genocides, murders (including abortion) and rapes ever committed."

You do realise that this statement makes you (or who ever made it) out to be completely insane.

What your saying is that by replacing one hocus pocus ceremony with another they have commited a worse crime then genocide.

No healthy human being can agree with that.


Hear, hear!

I agree!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 864203


I suppose one could agree with you if all one was concerned with was death of the flesh.
However, when one is concerned with death of the eternal soul, genocide pales in comparison, wouldn't you agree?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:47 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
"replaced the Apostolic Mass with a Protestantized ecumenical worship service is by far worse than all the massacres, genocides, murders (including abortion) and rapes ever committed."

You do realise that this statement makes you (or who ever made it) out to be completely insane.

What your saying is that by replacing one hocus pocus ceremony with another they have commited a worse crime then genocide.

No healthy human being can agree with that.


Hear, hear!

I agree!


I suppose one could agree with you if all one was concerned with was death of the flesh.
However, when one is concerned with death of the eternal soul, genocide pales in comparison, wouldn't you agree?
 Quoting: Traditional Catholic 893500


No because I don't agree with your premise about the 'supplanting of the mass.'

Truly ridiculous.
kat

User ID: 863839
United States
02/17/2010 09:47 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Should Roman Catholics attend and participate in the Novus Ordo Mass? What is you position on this?


This is a decision that is not taken lightly, but such
people may take solace from the fact that many Catholics are
simultaneously struggling with the very same issue, now more than ever
as the American Catholic Church departs more and more from the
Traditional Latin Mass and introduces more and more novelties into the
Church's central act of worship.

This is no new difficulty. We read in St. Paul's Second Epistle
to the Thessalonians that these early Christians were being subjected to
"operationem erroris, ut credant medacio" [a misleading influence that
they may believe falsehood] (2 Thess. 2:11). St. Paul's exhortation to
the Thessalonians was: "state et tenete traditiones, quas didicistis"
[stand firm, and hold the traditions that you have learned] (2 Thess.
2:15); in other words, cling to Sacred Tradition, from which, with
Sacred Scripture, the authentic Magisterium of the Church derives.

Catholics attending the Novus Ordo are confronted with a very
serious issue. Some considerations that they need to factor in include
the following:

(1) By continuing to subject themselves to unauthorized methods of
celebrating even the Novus Ordo, to sermons and catechesis tinged with
unorthodox doctrine, and to a Protestantized approach to the Mass, they
may be subjecting their faith to real peril.

(2) Catholic moral theology tells us to avoid proximate occasions
of sin, among which would be occasions where significant jeopardy is
posed to one's faith.

(3) By continuing to participate at Novus Ordo Masses, they could
be seen by others as approving of the whole unorthodox environment
surrounding the Novus Ordo, even though they do not in fact personally
approve. Thus, their mere presence at such Masses could provide scandal
to others.

(4) Obedience, as St. Thomas Aquinas explains, is a secondary
virtue subordinate to charity, or love of God. Obviously, the necessity
of obedience depends upon the person and thing to be obeyed. Obedience
to evil is a vice, not a virtue, and participation in irreverence and,
more so, sacrilege, is certainly a vice. Catholic moral theology has
always taught that even if the Pope were to command something that is
against the divine or natural law, then it would certainly be sinful for
anyone to obey him, since the virtue of obedience is opposed not only by
disobedience, but is also violated by excessive or indiscreet obedience,
which is the sin of servility.

No Catholic, for example, would argue the Nazistic principle
"befehl ist befehl" [an order is an order], e.g., that obedience to the
lawfully-elected German Chancellor would be necessary if he or his
representatives commanded one to kill an innocent man in a gas chamber.
It is a stark analogy, but to Catholics the Faith, the Mass, and the
Sacraments are as dear as life itself. This is the clear example that
was set for us by our predecessors, the Christian martyrs of every age,
and that has been set before us by the Church through the ages by its
veneration of martyrs for the faith as the greatest class of saints.

(5) Finally, there is that nagging question: is the Novus Ordo
valid? Or is it so contrary to Sacred Tradition and papal
pronouncements (especially Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum) of the last
twenty centuries that it must be considered invalid? Is it farther
removed from the Traditional Latin Mass than the Anglican liturgy, whose
ordinal (and by implication services) Pope Leo XIII pronounced to be invalid,
as
it did not intend to do as Christ and His Church intended?

Pope Innocent III, in his doctrinal letter "Cum Marthae circa,"
issued
in 1202, settled once and for all the question of the form of the words of
consecration for the Roman Rite, when he defined that the entire form as
found in the Missale Romanum are Christ's own words delivered to the Apostles
and through them to us, that the entire form is what Christ spoke and so the
entire form is necessary. The Novus Ordo does not use this form, not even
its Latin form. Pope Eugene IV confirmed the same doctrine in 1441 at the
17th Ecumenical Council (Florence, 1441).

The official definitions of the two Masses are strikingly
different. The New Mass is not a renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary,
but merely an "assembly of the people." The role of the priest is not
to offer sacrifice to God in the name of the people, but merely to
"preside," or "chair" the meeting.

If the official (but rarely-used) Latin version promulgated by
Pope Paul VI is valid, is the English translation, which departs widely
from the authentic meaning of the Latin, valid? Is even the English
translation valid, but are Masses in many parishes using it invalid
because invalid form or matter or intention is being used? Or is the
Novus Ordo valid, but illicit, in that it is celebrated in most parishes
in such a way that it is irreverent or even sacrilegious?

The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith instructed
the U.S. National Council of Catholic Bishops in a decision dated March
15, 1978: "It is particularly important to ensure careful observance of
the traditional theological interpretation about making of Eucharistic
bread, so that the faithful can be assured that every Eucharist is
celebrated with matter that is both valid and licit."

Apparently, this problem of Masses invalid because of defect of
matter was not corrected. A year later, according to a Letter from the
Cardinal Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith to the President of the [U.S.] National Council of Catholic
Bishops, as approved by Pope John Paul II on May 11, 1979, the
Congregation found evidence that priests "have mistakenly used an
element for the Eucharist other than genuine bread" after the NCCB's own
Committee on the Liturgy admitted "abuses in regard to the making of
bread for the Holy Eucharist."

Nor has the problem yet been corrected. The ingredients of the
"Eucharistic bread" used in one Michigan diocese in 1998 is clearly not
valid wheaten bread at all, but a cinnamon cracker: white flour, brown
sugar, salt, baking powder, cinnamon, honey, shortening, and water. The
ingredients used in a California diocese constitute a sugar cookie:
white flour, whole wheat flower, salt, sugar, baking powder, margarine.
Moreover, invalidating grape juice is being used instead of grape wine in
many dioceses.

In other words, to peel away the ecclesiastical language, invalid
Novus Ordo Masses have been celebrated in the dioceses of the United
States, and the faithful cannot be assured that the Novus Ordo Eucharist
is in fact valid, as bishops and priests in many dioceses in the United
States persist in using the same invalid matter. And an invalid Mass is
no Mass at all.

Moral theology does not require a Catholic, simply to fulfil his
Sunday obligation, to attend a sacrilegious Mass: one having sugar
cookies instead of unleavened bread, profane items set on or around the
altar, ad-libbed prayers, hosts dropped on the floor unceremoniously or
placed in unconsecrated hands, laypeople performing sacred actions
reserved to the ordained clergy, Gay Masses, Clown Masses, Dance Masses,
Children's Masses, etc. Have such present-day debacles in fact "crossed
the line" and become caricatures of the rightful Sacrifice of Calvary?

Even serious, tradition-minded Catholics who are exposed week
after week to the Novus Ordo cannot help but imbibe the unorthodox
attitudes to the Mass, the Sacraments, and the Faith itself, whether
they wish to or not. According to the ancient maxim: legem credendi
statuat lex supplicandi [the law of praying should determine the law of
believing].
 Quoting: Traditional Catholic 893500

So this raises so many questions?

Many of the faithful never question. It is not in the nature of most Roman Catholics. They believe the New Mass is where they should be and they go there every Sunday. What about them?

And what if there is no traditional Mass in your area?

I guess another question is, is it better to worship with a group of Christians in a church setting, or stay home? I am battling with this.

And if the Mass has been Protestantized is it because the Pope, et al want unity of the religions above all else? I keep telling everyone that the Episcopal Mass is the same Mass as the Roman Catholic New Mass. Same format, same ceremony, same participation by lay people. In both Masses all sorts of non-traditional music is brought in. Blues Guitar at Communion in both places. So distracting. Way too much solo singing. Puts the performance before the worship. Does this bother anyone else?
No good deed goes unpunished.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 864203
United States
02/17/2010 09:50 AM
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Re: 40 years of Abomination--The Novus Ordo Mass
Should Roman Catholics attend and participate in the Novus Ordo Mass? What is you position on this?


This is a decision that is not taken lightly, but such
people may take solace from the fact that many Catholics are
simultaneously struggling with the very same issue, now more than ever
as the American Catholic Church departs more and more from the
Traditional Latin Mass and introduces more and more novelties into the
Church's central act of worship.

This is no new difficulty. We read in St. Paul's Second Epistle
to the Thessalonians that these early Christians were being subjected to
"operationem erroris, ut credant medacio" [a misleading influence that
they may believe falsehood] (2 Thess. 2:11). St. Paul's exhortation to
the Thessalonians was: "state et tenete traditiones, quas didicistis"
[stand firm, and hold the traditions that you have learned] (2 Thess.
2:15); in other words, cling to Sacred Tradition, from which, with
Sacred Scripture, the authentic Magisterium of the Church derives.

Catholics attending the Novus Ordo are confronted with a very
serious issue. Some considerations that they need to factor in include
the following:

(1) By continuing to subject themselves to unauthorized methods of
celebrating even the Novus Ordo, to sermons and catechesis tinged with
unorthodox doctrine, and to a Protestantized approach to the Mass, they
may be subjecting their faith to real peril.

(2) Catholic moral theology tells us to avoid proximate occasions
of sin, among which would be occasions where significant jeopardy is
posed to one's faith.

(3) By continuing to participate at Novus Ordo Masses, they could
be seen by others as approving of the whole unorthodox environment
surrounding the Novus Ordo, even though they do not in fact personally
approve. Thus, their mere presence at such Masses could provide scandal
to others.

(4) Obedience, as St. Thomas Aquinas explains, is a secondary
virtue subordinate to charity, or love of God. Obviously, the necessity
of obedience depends upon the person and thing to be obeyed. Obedience
to evil is a vice, not a virtue, and participation in irreverence and,
more so, sacrilege, is certainly a vice. Catholic moral theology has
always taught that even if the Pope were to command something that is
against the divine or natural law, then it would certainly be sinful for
anyone to obey him, since the virtue of obedience is opposed not only by
disobedience, but is also violated by excessive or indiscreet obedience,
which is the sin of servility.

No Catholic, for example, would argue the Nazistic principle
"befehl ist befehl" [an order is an order], e.g., that obedience to the
lawfully-elected German Chancellor would be necessary if he or his
representatives commanded one to kill an innocent man in a gas chamber.
It is a stark analogy, but to Catholics the Faith, the Mass, and the
Sacraments are as dear as life itself. This is the clear example that
was set for us by our predecessors, the Christian martyrs of every age,
and that has been set before us by the Church through the ages by its
veneration of martyrs for the faith as the greatest class of saints.

(5) Finally, there is that nagging question: is the Novus Ordo
valid? Or is it so contrary to Sacred Tradition and papal
pronouncements (especially Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum) of the last
twenty centuries that it must be considered invalid? Is it farther
removed from the Traditional Latin Mass than the Anglican liturgy, whose
ordinal (and by implication services) Pope Leo XIII pronounced to be invalid,
as
it did not intend to do as Christ and His Church intended?

Pope Innocent III, in his doctrinal letter "Cum Marthae circa,"
issued
in 1202, settled once and for all the question of the form of the words of
consecration for the Roman Rite, when he defined that the entire form as
found in the Missale Romanum are Christ's own words delivered to the Apostles
and through them to us, that the entire form is what Christ spoke and so the
entire form is necessary. The Novus Ordo does not use this form, not even
its Latin form. Pope Eugene IV confirmed the same doctrine in 1441 at the
17th Ecumenical Council (Florence, 1441).

The official definitions of the two Masses are strikingly
different. The New Mass is not a renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary,
but merely an "assembly of the people." The role of the priest is not
to offer sacrifice to God in the name of the people, but merely to
"preside," or "chair" the meeting.

If the official (but rarely-used) Latin version promulgated by
Pope Paul VI is valid, is the English translation, which departs widely
from the authentic meaning of the Latin, valid? Is even the English
translation valid, but are Masses in many parishes using it invalid
because invalid form or matter or intention is being used? Or is the
Novus Ordo valid, but illicit, in that it is celebrated in most parishes
in such a way that it is irreverent or even sacrilegious?

The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith instructed
the U.S. National Council of Catholic Bishops in a decision dated March
15, 1978: "It is particularly important to ensure careful observance of
the traditional theological interpretation about making of Eucharistic
bread, so that the faithful can be assured that every Eucharist is
celebrated with matter that is both valid and licit."

Apparently, this problem of Masses invalid because of defect of
matter was not corrected. A year later, according to a Letter from the
Cardinal Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith to the President of the [U.S.] National Council of Catholic
Bishops, as approved by Pope John Paul II on May 11, 1979, the
Congregation found evidence that priests "have mistakenly used an
element for the Eucharist other than genuine bread" after the NCCB's own
Committee on the Liturgy admitted "abuses in regard to the making of
bread for the Holy Eucharist."

Nor has the problem yet been corrected. The ingredients of the
"Eucharistic bread" used in one Michigan diocese in 1998 is clearly not
valid wheaten bread at all, but a cinnamon cracker: white flour, brown
sugar, salt, baking powder, cinnamon, honey, shortening, and water. The
ingredients used in a California diocese constitute a sugar cookie:
white flour, whole wheat flower, salt, sugar, baking powder, margarine.
Moreover, invalidating grape juice is being used instead of grape wine in
many dioceses.

In other words, to peel away the ecclesiastical language, invalid
Novus Ordo Masses have been celebrated in the dioceses of the United
States, and the faithful cannot be assured that the Novus Ordo Eucharist
is in fact valid, as bishops and priests in many dioceses in the United
States persist in using the same invalid matter. And an invalid Mass is
no Mass at all.

Moral theology does not require a Catholic, simply to fulfil his
Sunday obligation, to attend a sacrilegious Mass: one having sugar
cookies instead of unleavened bread, profane items set on or around the
altar, ad-libbed prayers, hosts dropped on the floor unceremoniously or
placed in unconsecrated hands, laypeople performing sacred actions
reserved to the ordained clergy, Gay Masses, Clown Masses, Dance Masses,
Children's Masses, etc. Have such present-day debacles in fact "crossed
the line" and become caricatures of the rightful Sacrifice of Calvary?

Even serious, tradition-minded Catholics who are exposed week
after week to the Novus Ordo cannot help but imbibe the unorthodox
attitudes to the Mass, the Sacraments, and the Faith itself, whether
they wish to or not. According to the ancient maxim: legem credendi
statuat lex supplicandi [the law of praying should determine the law of
believing].

So this raises so many questions?

Many of the faithful never question. It is not in the nature of most Roman Catholics. They believe the New Mass is where they should be and they go there every Sunday. What about them?

And what if there is no traditional Mass in your area?

I guess another question is, is it better to worship with a group of Christians in a church setting, or stay home? I am battling with this.

And if the Mass has been Protestantized is it because the Pope, et al want unity of the religions above all else? I keep telling everyone that the Episcopal Mass is the same Mass as the Roman Catholic New Mass. Same format, same ceremony, same participation by lay people. In both Masses all sorts of non-traditional music is brought in. Blues Guitar at Communion in both places. So distracting. Way too much solo singing. Puts the performance before the worship. Does this bother anyone else?
 Quoting: kat


There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Do you know Jesus, the son of God?