Good works won´t get you anywhere with God, concerning your salvationUser ID: 1371.

Oh yeah....... another IGNORANT STATEMENT from a PROTESTANT who knows NOTHING ABOUT SALVATION.

To follow the LORD would be the end of Catholicism in a person´s life and a new beginning in the ways of the LORD.

Excuse me. Catholicism is CHRISTIANITY IN ALL OF IT´S FULLNESS.

According to many modern-day evangelical (so-called "born-again") Christians, the only thing a person has to do to be saved is to sincerely say the following prayer, or something equivalent to it:

"Dear God, I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ shed His precious blood and died for my sin. I am willing to turn from sin. I now invite Christ to come into my heart and life as my personal savior."

At the conclusion of this short prayer (it took me about 10 seconds to say it), we are told, Jesus Christ will enter a person´s heart, cleanse their soul of sin and take control of their life, guiding and instructing it from that point on.

Nothing else is required to be saved, these Christians believe, and there is no other way to be saved.

Though the new convert is likely to do good deeds from then on as Jesus transforms his personality, good deeds are not required for salvation, so they believe, nor do they help attain it; they are merely the outward expression of inward faith, and it is faith alone that saves ---------

so these Christians believe.

What does the New Testament has to say on the issue of salvation.

---Faith alone - belief in Jesus Christ as the only Son of God will gain a person admittance to Heaven; nothing additional is required, and nothing else will suffice. The position of most modern-day evangelical Christians, "BORN AGAINS."

---Faith and baptism - a person must believe in Jesus Christ as divine, but must also be baptized in water, to gain admittance to the kingdom of God.

This position is held by the Catholic Church, modern-day Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventist and Oneness Pentecostal churches, it was also widely held in the early Christian church and by church fathers such as Origen and Augustine (see [link to www.issuesetc.org]

----Faith and works - a person must believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, but must also do good works, usually defined as giving to charity, feeding the poor, aiding the needy, etc. The position of the Roman Catholic church, ALSO.

----Predestination - a person´s belief and actions are both irrelevant. God has chosen some for salvation and some for damnation, and nothing anyone can do will alter their status from one category to another.

The position of 16th-century theologian John Calvin and the sect he founded, unsurprisingly called Calvinist.

"Good works won´t get you anywhere with God, concerning your salvation. Only acceptance of His Son, combined with obedience to His word."

Oh, Mysti, there you go again with your ignorances. (Sigh)

Martin Luther said that the epistle of James? was straw, for it says that "faith without works is dead".

I will grant you that acceptance of Christ, and obedience to His Word is necessary. Let us be about defining "good works". Those good works are given in the Gospels and Epistles. They boil down to the words of Jesus:

You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. That is all the Law and the prophets.

I don´t care what Martin Luther said. He is not the INTERPRETER of THE BIBLE, nor does he HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO INTERPRET IT and he CERTAINLY had NO AUTHORITY what-so-ever from REMOVING BOOKS, from the bible.

What do you say to that????

Let us look at Evangelicals view point: Salvation by Faith Alone

This position is not without Biblical support. For example, the New Testament´s Epistle to the Ephesians takes a similar position and states it clearly:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." --Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)

The import of this seems simple enough and impossible to deny. Salvation "is the gift of God" and "not of works"; it is faith and faith alone that saves. From these plain words generations of Protestants have gotten their inspiration. There are numerous other verses that say the same thing:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." --Titus 3:5 (KJV)

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." --Acts 16:30-31 (KJV)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..."
--Romans 1:16 (KJV)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.... He that believeth on him is not condemned." --John 3:16,18 (KJV).

Of course this is why Evangelicals, "BORN-AGAINS"
insist that this is all one needs to ATTAIN SALVATION

However...................

There are other VERSES that say "differently" - VERSES that, when enumerating the REQUIREMENTS for salvation, "BORN-AGAINS" d-e-n-y, even if it is P-L-A-I-N-L-Y "described" in scripture.

Salvation by Faith and Water Baptism



"He that believeth and is BAPTISED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." --Mark 16:16 (KJV)

Whoa!!!

Nut+case = nutcase!

I think the tedious arguments between certain religious factions on this forum should now move on to the subject regarding what color the temple curtain was that ´rent in two´.



Discuss.

"He that believeth and is b-a-p-t-i-z-e-d shall be s-a-v-e-d; but he that believeth not shall be d-a-m-n-e-d." --Mark 16:16 (KJV)

As plainly as the above verses say faith alone is needed for salvation, this verse from the Gospel of Mark says that two things are needed: FAITH and B-A-P-T-I-S-M.

Needless to say, if this is the case, then the "faith alone" verses have O-M-I-T-T-E-D a CRUCIAL "requirement."

Was the jailor from Acts led astray and doomed by Paul´s bad advice? You find out.

How indescribably arrogant to pretend to know what does and does not concern God. A common fault of christians.

A "Christian" who does not believe in the necessity of being baptized might say that the "baptism" being referred to here is not a physical water baptism, but a "baptism of the Spirit" or some such mystical event.

Well, one additional verse answers this OBJECTION`:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of W-A-T-E-R and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." --John 3:5 (KJV)

Mysti wrote:
I don´t care what Martin Luther said.

Well, well! It is in your following post that I find you AGREE with Martin Luther completely, using quotes from the Bible (a good thing) that formed the basis of Martin Luther´s rejection of the verse that says "faith without works is dead". He called it an "Epistle of straw".

The Catholic Church is the church that held to that very precept! And excommunicated Martin Luther. And here you are, in agreement with him!

Maybe you are finally waking up?

You also cant have faith without good works. So what does good works mean in the biblical context? It means that mimicing good works does not equate to a good concious towards God and your fellow. Two people can knock on your door. One does it to make merchandise of you and the other to truly share. It is not about works, behavior, it is about the nature behind it. A doctrin of works has been built without understanding the context in it. This is the meaning of being beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing. Or, do not judge according to apperances, behavior.

trust no one who speaks for god

Hi 78,

You bring up a good point. God speaks to all directly.

Wow.

Are you saying I can be a total bastard and STILL go to Heaven, but only if I´m a Catholic?

I can kick puppies, beat children, strangle grandma? I can lie, cheat and steal? I can kill the people who annoy me? I can have no morals or sense of right and wrong but STILL go to Heaven?

And nobody else, no matter how they live or what they believe, are forbidden to enter Heaven because they aren´t Catholic?

????

Throughout my life I´ve tried to be a kind person and treat living things with respect... not because I thought it was a ticket to Heaven, but because it´s the right way (for me) to live.

If I´m going to go to Hell for that... well... okay fine.

But Mystified, I feel confident that wherever I go, YOU won´t be there.

And I´m thanking GOD for that.

.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14214
4/16/2005
11:07 am EDT Re: Good works won´t get you anywhere with God, concerning your salvationUser ID: 1371.

Mysti wrote:
I don´t care what Martin Luther said.

Well, well! It is in your following post that I find you AGREE with Martin Luther completely, using quotes from the Bible (a good thing) that formed the basis of Martin Luther´s rejection of the verse that says "faith without works is dead". He called it an "Epistle of straw".

The Catholic Church is the church that held to that very precept! And excommunicated Martin Luther. And here you are, in agreement with him!

Maybe you are finally waking up?------------------------

Good try 14214, Luther lost ALL AUTHORITY, when he was EX-COMMUNICATED, he started many FALSE DOCTRINES, that I am certainly NOT in AGREEMENT with, as THESE DOCTRINES were NEVER PRACTICED by THE EARLY CHURCH/CHRISTIANS/CATHOLICS till AFTER HIS EX-COMMUNICATION.

I mangled this sentence.

"And nobody else, no matter how they live or what they believe, are forbidden to enter Heaven because they aren´t Catholic?"

=========

Rephrased:

And all others, no matter how they live or what they believe, are forbidden to enter Heaven because they aren´t Catholic?

OP needs a good stiff one

Where was I......

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of w-a-t-e-r and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." --John 3:5 (KJV)

This verse from the Gospel of John, spoken by Jesus HIMSELF, makes it "ABSOLUTELY CLEAR" that W-A-T-E-R BAPTISM, is a requirement for salvation.

It draws a distinction/difference between baptism of w-a-t-e-r and "baptism of the Spirit," and makes it PLAIN that BOTH are REQUIRED: those who LACK "either one" "cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Mystified, you´re way out of whack. So far from reality I think you must be shilling for the Satanists, can´t imagine a better way to make people despise religion than have you preach for it.

"As plainly as the above verses say faith alone is needed for salvation, this verse from the Gospel of Mark says that two things are needed: FAITH and B-A-P-T-I-S-M."

It is by faith that you are even baptized! All good works are an act of faith. Faith and Belief are fast joined together, making them almost synonymous.

14943,

BEATIFIC VISION: this is a statement from a SEER.

"Do not judge your brothers and sisters who have not been converted. For My Father´s House, My Son has repeated over and over: remember always that My Father´s House-there are many rooms in the Mansion, signifying faiths and creeds.

However, the Eternal Father, the beatific vision, is reserved for the ROMAN CATHOLIC FOLLOWING.

This it has been deemed by the Eternal Father since the beginning of time." - Our Lady, August 14, 1979

Wait, I was baptised by water, full immersion - but I am not Catholic.

But that´s sill not good enough for Heaven, right Mystified?

What is the BEATIFIC VISION?

Face to Face with God

“When it comes time for a face to face with God

In our world of voice mail, video conferencing, chat rooms and cell phones can make communication instantaneous and worldwide. Yet the best form of communication is face to face. When we see someone, we communicate most directly -- using voice, expression, gesture, inflection and even touch. It´s the closest we can get to another.

In this Sunday´s Gospel, Jesus promises the "clean of heart" that "they shall see God" (Mt. 5:8).

This is one of the scripture texts from which we derive the concept of the beatific vision, or heaven. The beatific vision means seeing God face to face. . . .

In 1336, Pope Benedict XII set down clearly the teaching on the beatific vision: "these souls have seen and see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature clearly and openly..." (Benedictus Deus).

Paul, in the Letter to the Corinthians, written about 20 years after Christ´s resurrection, put it in more picturesque terms: "At present, we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face." (1Cor 13:12)

And the First Letter of John states plainly that "we shall see him as he is" (3:2).

But what does it mean to see God "as he is?"

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing wellspring of happiness, peace and mutual communion" (no. 1045). . . .

"The concept of beatific vision is best understood if we think of it in terms of a living, personal exchange between God and the human person," explains theologian Fr. Zachary Hayes, OFM. "God offers the mystery of the divine presence to the creature. The human person, on the other hand, is freed from self-seeking and stands before God in total openness." . . .

Abp. Daniel Pilarczyk, retired president of the USCCB, explains this knowledge of ourselves as true fulfillment. "The potential that God created for each of us will not be lost, but will be actualized and brought to terms in the glorious humanity of Christ. Our capacity for loving and being loved, for intellectual achievement, for appreciating God´s works and for communicating with others, the things we might have been but never got the chance to be, the things we started but never got the chance to finish -- all will be brought to completion in the life of Father, Son and Holy Spirit manifested in us."

With the promise of this beatific vision, we strive now to better know Christ, who is "God with Us." Through him, we draw ever closer to that perfect communication which the beatified, the saints in heaven, now fully share-- with God and with all who live in God.”

Patricia Kasten, Compass Associate Editor