Godlike Productions - Reply to Thread

Users Online Now: 1,849 (Who's On?)	Visitors Today: 980,723
Pageviews Today: 1,699,664	Threads Today: 667	Posts Today: 12,987
06:40 PM

REPLY TO THREAD

Subject EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME

User Name

Font color: Font:

In accordance with industry accepted best practices we ask that users limit their copy / paste of copyrighted material to the relevant portions of the article you wish to discuss and no more than 50% of the source material, provide a link back to the original article and provide your original comments / criticism in your post with the article.

[quote:Anonymous Coward 35094424:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzYzNzY0X0NFNTgzQzA5]
[quote:EMPerror:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzQ3MjM0XzQwNDZDRTkw]
[quote:Anonymous Coward 35094424:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzQzMTUzXzU1Q0Q1QkI=]
[quote:EMPerror:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzM2NDA2XzhCNzQzQkI4]
[quote:Anonymous Coward 35094424:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzI1NzU5XzRCMkZFQTZC]
[quote:EMPerror:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzI1MjE3X0NFMzBDMDgz]
[quote:Anonymous Coward 35094424:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NzA0MjE1X0UyNDI5NUFB]
[quote:EMPerror:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2Njk2NzUyXzcyQzQ3RUI5]
[quote:Anonymous Coward 35094424:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2NjkyODEzX0U1OTE1QjQx]
[quote:EMPerror:MV8yMTUxMDEzXzM2MzYxNzc5Xzk4NkFGQjY4]
Anti-EMP enclosure wall thickness can be calculated from standard
http://www.ets-lindgren.com/pdf/item_wm_0609.pdf

Magnetic attenuation 2dB=1.3 @1kHz and 80dB=10000 @10MHz using skin effect formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

Thicker material is needed for 1kHz with metals of choice (it may not be the case for every material). Wall thickness is calculated from parameters found on internet, so verify it before usage.

Common metals
Copper 0.5mm
Aluminum 0.6mm
Carbon steel 0.15mm

Carbon steel can be thinner as it is magnetic material. Stainless steel is different. There are two major groups of it, austenitic (non magnetic), ferritic or martensitic (magnetic). Metal type can be tested using magnet.

Non magnetic type offers poor protection (magnet won't stick to it). It is often used for kitchenware.
Steel 304 3.1mm
Steel 316 3.2mm

Magnetic type offers better protection and is comparable with carbon steel.
Steel 410 0.3mm
Steel 430 0.1mm

It is possible to find material parameters on the internet and make calculations for most materials of choice.
[b]
In case of emergency electronic equipment can be put into any metal dish, pot, metal trash can, barrel and enclosed with metal sheet or lid. It doesn't matter if it is not up to the standard, it will be much safer this way than to leave it in the open and with luck it may work.[/b]

When preparing in advance, wall thickness, stainless steel (if needed using magnet) can be measured or tested.
[/quote]

Would they need to be grounded?

:burnit:
[/quote]

No, it's not needed. Grounding can only protect against electrostatic field, and EMP is alternating electromagnetic field. Metal shield is protecting against EMP or high voltages. Once grounding wire is connected, it acts as an antenna collecting EMP.
Grounding is only used for installations that have equipment dependent on grounding like antennas, wired connections.

The most dangerous for grounding is E3 also called MHD-EMP. It causes currents in the ground that also travel through electric grid, pipes. It can cause discharges, sparks, can melt ground wire or cause fire.
[/quote]

Thank-You!

I was thinking that a grounding wire would act like a lightning rod so to speak!... but, there's so many conflicting opinions!

I was thinking about using a galvanized steel garbage can
lined with cardboard inside and wrapping the items in heavy duty tin foil in layers ... plastic wrap - tin foil - plastic wrap - tin foil, etc.

:hf:
[/quote]

Galvanized steel garbage box should provide adequate protection. Wrapping it in thick foil is reducing EMP effects by a small fraction, so it won't hurt. Foil used alone can easily melt. That's how it looks in microwave. Similar effects with EMP would be within extremely short time periods and much higher power (if it happens, electronics is gone for sure).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oQZszviPV0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oQZszviPV0

Foil usually provides some protection against non EMP harmful signals. Most microchips are imported and it is a good question if they have undisclosed abilities to turn off permanently once some signal is received?
Layering it won't hurt, but it is not an extremely effective way.
A well sealed chemical resisting plastic bag is a must. This way you are protecting it from harmful chemicals and radiactive particles, it can be easily submerged into decontaminating aggressive chemical (like sodium hypochlorite also called bleach or other). Otherwise you are risking loosing your electronics or making dangerous to use. There are numerous chemical plants that after EMP would run out of control and cause problems of unimaginable proportions, not only for unprotected electronics.
I've witnessed one of the biggest chemical catastrophes which happened in Jonava 1989-03-20 when 7500tons of liquid ammonia were released from a collapsed tank. Witnesses tell that sewers in the vicinity reacted bubbling and popping all iron lids high into the air. Affected area was more than 50km reaching Ukmerge within few hours along the wind, and luckily wind direction changed pushing the cloud backwards towards Jonava and then Kedainiai (also 50km away). It could have been worse. Standard activated carbon gas mask was nearly useless against it. All wildlife was fleeing the zone some 40km away, including wild rats and mice which usually avoid running in the open.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonava#Environmental_catastrophe
http://www.xxiamzius.lt/numeriai/2004/03/19/gkras_01.html

Only specialized gas mask can help against this chemical. Once you know your surroundings and chemical plants, it's possible to "do the math". Blind possession of a standard filtration system or gas mask may only give false sense of security. Stockpiling of changeable specialized filters can be extremely important in some areas. It is another "Big topic". It can happen that it will fail and the only option will be to run away. You can't hope to outrun a cloud or wind without transport so there won't be much time to waste. Steel or container garage can be considered. Motorcycle kept in EMP protected box can be extremely useful (even bicycle may improve chances with lots of luck). When everything did settle down it may be possible to come back and there will be a task to decontaminate everything. Improper decontamination or failure to protect assets against contaminants can lead to a waste of valuable resources and health issues. Both of these hinder chances for survival.
A small steel (it's possible to test with magnet) metal box like the one from tea, candies or cookies can provide a good protection and they sometimes can protect against EMP on their own (thickness is the key and usual tin box wall thickness is 0.23mm). Using them as an additional protection in big container (like garbage box) would only improve survivability. This way, once place must be quickly abandoned, it's possible to take the most important items with you without compromising EMP protection.
[/quote]

So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...

Thanks Much! :hf:
[/quote]

EMP can change chemical composition, so this is important. More on that later.

Electronics can be wrapped once or multiple times in foil and put in plastic bag, or simply put into anti ESD (metalized) protective bag. It works as a protection and can easily be done. This way you will be sure, that you've done everything to protect this thing. Layering will not provide significantly better protection than wrapping multiple times into thick layer of foil without plastic bag between layers. It's not worth the effort. Thick wrapping can dissipate thermal energy much better and thus works better. It becomes something in between sold thick metal, which is the best, and a foil.
Plastic bag or several of them after that is a must. This is a chemically sensitive device.
For small critical devices it's possible to make custom, improved in many ways box.

First of all there is no ultimate protection. Weapons are improved all the time. If it will get hit by extreme some new type EMP, you will be close to ground zero (SREMP), or radiation protection won't be adequate (SGEMP), foil can melt inside and the same can happen with every microchip in the device. The question should be how human being can survive to see it happening, which is much more complicated task. EMP protection in this case is deeper underground to protect against radiation, thicker walls, additional internal thick high permeability metal box. Resources needed for protection grow exponentially from some point.

Galvanized steel trash can should offer adequate protect against known types of EMP and mentioned standard is also based on known types of EMP. It should provide good protection. The best protection is always in the middle of box. Only one part, contact between lid and can may be improved with conductive gasket. More layers of protection make better overall protection. Big can, smaller boxes and foil is a good improved protection.

I'm not using foil at all, the box should handle EMP, but there are no critical things for survival, so situation is different. Anti ESD bags are used for some spare parts that are sensitive or have open contacts. Usually these parts come with such bags, ant it's better to keep them there or use foil. When moving with a backpack or unpacking foil, it makes lots of sound and it's a big disadvantage. For backpack or portable anti EMP box I'm using metal box with lining made from RF absorbing material and anti ESD sponge that keeps things tight so that they do not break and do not cause sounds.
[/quote]

Thank-You!... :hf:

I understand that in our day and age the weapons get stronger and there's no way to be 100% sure that what we do will work, but just doing it and hoping for the best is better than not doing anything and the worst happens and thinking I should have done something...

I looked up the Anti-ESD bags you mentioned and they are cheap enough, I may get some... would I use the foil after putting the items in the bag or before?

I really appreciate your patients in helping and answering my questions!...

:peace:
[/quote]

This bag is usually used for the device directly. It is intended to protect contacts from sparking when you are taking it into your hands. It acts exactly as a thin foil and a bag on top of that, but bag material is slightly conductive (slightly conductive type should be considered) so it makes a difference. It prevents electrostatic charges from building up. The same goes for anti-ESD sponge, it has no metal layer, but is slightly conductive itself.
[/quote]

Many Thanks! 
:rose::rose::rose::rose::rose::rose::rose::rose:
[/quote]

Original Message EMP (electromagnetic pulse) can hit without a warning or with it and catch anyone by surprise. It is likely there won't be much time to prepare and it won't be the best time to look for knowledge on how to prepare when it may be happening.

EMP can be as a natural doom coming from the Sun through massive CME, or caused by weapons, nuclear explosions, EMP bombs and others. Their effects can also greatly differ. Some types of EMP effect long wires, electrical grid (E3), others directly electronic equipment (E1, E2). Numerous doom scenarios have EMP on the list.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

With electric grid down and possibly (but not necessarily) no electronic equipment, survival may become a real issue. Survival equipment like flashlight, radio or important equipment that is unprotected can be lost.

EMP protection may be a bit more complicated than simple Faraday cage.

[link to www.ets-lindgren.com]

Any connected wire, metal structure, is it grounding or pipe, will act as an antenna making things a lot worse. These may start sparks and fires as a result. Underground cannot provide protection from EMP unless hundreds of yards underground are considered. Radio waves can travel through soil, and it is not a "big obstacle" for high power EMP.

A lot of shelters have generators, lights, ventilation that are unprotected and are likely to go out in case of EMP. This part is often omitted and only few survivalists take into account possible outcomes.

Pictures (click to insert)





\| Next Page >>