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Can evolution explain the transition of a caterpillar to a butterfly?
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[quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODA3NjQzX0UwNjIwQzA5] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODAyNzQ0XzQ4MUEwM0FG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzk4NjczXzZGNkE5RjM4] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzg0Mjc2XzZGQkY1NTYz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzgxODA1XzgzQkVFN0ZB] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzcyNTY3X0EzRDc4QTND] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzY2NzMyXzFGNENFMDdG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzUzNzYxXzhCNENDRjYy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzUyNTMwXzNBMDRCOEJB] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTgzX0EwMDQyNTBG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTI4X0NEMzkxNDBE] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MzU2XzYxNEREMzdG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4Mjk5XzVDODVFQkQ1] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4Mjg2X0Q1MjFDNzA1] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MjMyXzMxQjhEQUQ3] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MjEyXzM4RUI4NTU=] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MDMzXzQ1M0IzRTJG] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM3OTYxXzgxRjA4MDlG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzUwQzgzRUZG] How many mutations does need to be naturally selected over the course of thousands of generations until theres a complete transition from caterpillar to butterfly? [/quote] You're assuming that caterpillars originally did not use metamorphosis, and remained caterpillars their whole life. This might not be the case. Many biologists now suspect the opposite is true; originally, moths laid eggs and miniature baby moths hatched out. Eventually, they began to hatch prematurely, as free roaming embryos, which we now refer to as caterpillars. The caterpillar can now gather nutrients that are not available in the egg, before finishing its development. So, the real question might be, how many mutations were required to cause moths to hatch before they were fully developed. Butterflies most likely evolved from moths. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/insect-metamorphosis-evolution/ [/quote] You then need to add more mutations to cause the under developed caterpillar to create its own cacoon and go into a metamorphisis. Your evolutionists made the procedure even more complicated. Do you honestly believe them? [/quote] I disagree. It's not more complicated at all. Whether they began as caterpillars or as moths, metamorphosis still happens regardless. It's simpler for the moth to delay it's development and hatch as an embryo, then it is for a caterpillar to evolve the ability to turn into a butterfly. Do I honestly believe who about what? [/quote] You are saying you start with an under developed moth that exited the egg prematurely and then suddenly kickstarted the development process by learning to build its own cacoon from materials in his body, and then inside, complete the development??? Yes, that is very simple. [/quote] Pay attention, I said it is [b]simpler[/b] than a caterpillar evolving the ability to become a butterfly. You said this is more complicated, but it's not. [/quote] Do you believe its possible? [/quote] Yes. Marsupials are born as embryos. They travel from the birth canal to the mother's pouch where they finish development. True mammals -unlike marsupials- have a placenta which allows them to further develop inside the womb. If you go back far enough, the ancestors of marsupials likely laid eggs, just like the platypus and echidna. Another comparable example is the transition from tadpole to frog. The tadpole is a free roaming embryo, better suited to swimming than the fully developed frog. [/quote] But were talking about butterflies not marsupials. [/quote] The two of them are comparable. Here's what a newborn kangaroo looks like: https://media0.giphy.com/media/7W4QZYvYKii8U/giphy.gif It's basically a worm. [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTI4X0NEMzkxNDBE] So you believe a underdeveloped moth emproy mutated enough so it could shoot silk out of its ass and then mutated to build a cacoon and the mutated to learn how to jumpstart and resume its development back to fully developed moth. [/quote] I think that's the best explanation available. It's not so far fetched. Maybe the original caterpillar developed without a cocoon, like tadpoles. But the cocoon became a useful strategy. The caterpillar didn't need to 'learn' how to develop. It happens involuntarily, like a human going through puberty. [/quote] :pigchef: [/quote] What? [/quote] :bsflag: 'Maybe' you got it all wrong. Would you 'maybe' admit that? :pigchef::pigchef::pigchef: [/quote] Tell me what I got wrong and tell me how you know it's wrong. Then I'll admit it. [/quote] Hey man, I'm just playing along your 'maybe' games. Maybe you will not believe me. Maybe. [/quote] So, as usual you have no point. [/quote] Maybe. Maybe we will let the powers of evolution decide our faith. :5a: [/quote] Wtf are you talking about? Are you trying to be funny? Do you think there's a problem with being honest about our uncertainty? Would you prefer that I lie like religions do'? [/quote] Dude you believe... someday moth larva stopped developing in the egg and exited the egg, yet SURVIVED! Somehow that moth devloped a mutation that allowed it to produce more larva that survive exiting the egg prematurley. Then over time, these larva developed another mutation that allowed them to build a cacoon!! for no apparent reason!!! Which means they dont reproduce! But magically they were able to pass this mutation on to more larva who could develop cacoons, who also developed a mutation that allows them to jumpstart growth into fully developed moths, inside said cacoon! LoL are you fucking stupid??? [/quote]
Original Message
How many mutations does need to be naturally selected over the course of thousands of generations until theres a complete transition from caterpillar to butterfly?
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