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Can evolution explain the transition of a caterpillar to a butterfly?
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[quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODgyNTQ3X0UyRTdDREJB] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODczNDMwXzhFQzU0NUQ=] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODM5NzM3X0VGMzM5MDM=] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODM5NTIxX0ZEMEY3OTE5] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODE4MTgzXzJDOUI2QzY2] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODE0ODY3X0YwNzIwMUM2] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODAyNzQ0XzQ4MUEwM0FG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzk4NjczXzZGNkE5RjM4] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzg0Mjc2XzZGQkY1NTYz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzgxODA1XzgzQkVFN0ZB] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzcyNTY3X0EzRDc4QTND] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzY2NzMyXzFGNENFMDdG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 75814481:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzUzNzYxXzhCNENDRjYy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzUyNTMwXzNBMDRCOEJB] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTgzX0EwMDQyNTBG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTI4X0NEMzkxNDBE] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MzU2XzYxNEREMzdG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4Mjk5XzVDODVFQkQ1] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4Mjg2X0Q1MjFDNzA1] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MjMyXzMxQjhEQUQ3] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MjEyXzM4RUI4NTU=] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4MDMzXzQ1M0IzRTJG] [quote:Spur-Man:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM3OTYxXzgxRjA4MDlG] [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzUwQzgzRUZG] How many mutations does need to be naturally selected over the course of thousands of generations until theres a complete transition from caterpillar to butterfly? [/quote] You're assuming that caterpillars originally did not use metamorphosis, and remained caterpillars their whole life. This might not be the case. Many biologists now suspect the opposite is true; originally, moths laid eggs and miniature baby moths hatched out. Eventually, they began to hatch prematurely, as free roaming embryos, which we now refer to as caterpillars. The caterpillar can now gather nutrients that are not available in the egg, before finishing its development. So, the real question might be, how many mutations were required to cause moths to hatch before they were fully developed. Butterflies most likely evolved from moths. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/insect-metamorphosis-evolution/ [/quote] You then need to add more mutations to cause the under developed caterpillar to create its own cacoon and go into a metamorphisis. Your evolutionists made the procedure even more complicated. Do you honestly believe them? [/quote] I disagree. It's not more complicated at all. Whether they began as caterpillars or as moths, metamorphosis still happens regardless. It's simpler for the moth to delay it's development and hatch as an embryo, then it is for a caterpillar to evolve the ability to turn into a butterfly. Do I honestly believe who about what? [/quote] You are saying you start with an under developed moth that exited the egg prematurely and then suddenly kickstarted the development process by learning to build its own cacoon from materials in his body, and then inside, complete the development??? Yes, that is very simple. [/quote] Pay attention, I said it is [b]simpler[/b] than a caterpillar evolving the ability to become a butterfly. You said this is more complicated, but it's not. [/quote] Do you believe its possible? [/quote] Yes. Marsupials are born as embryos. They travel from the birth canal to the mother's pouch where they finish development. True mammals -unlike marsupials- have a placenta which allows them to further develop inside the womb. If you go back far enough, the ancestors of marsupials likely laid eggs, just like the platypus and echidna. Another comparable example is the transition from tadpole to frog. The tadpole is a free roaming embryo, better suited to swimming than the fully developed frog. [/quote] But were talking about butterflies not marsupials. [/quote] The two of them are comparable. Here's what a newborn kangaroo looks like: https://media0.giphy.com/media/7W4QZYvYKii8U/giphy.gif It's basically a worm. [quote:DPS7:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxNzM4NTI4X0NEMzkxNDBE] So you believe a underdeveloped moth emproy mutated enough so it could shoot silk out of its ass and then mutated to build a cacoon and the mutated to learn how to jumpstart and resume its development back to fully developed moth. [/quote] I think that's the best explanation available. It's not so far fetched. Maybe the original caterpillar developed without a cocoon, like tadpoles. But the cocoon became a useful strategy. The caterpillar didn't need to 'learn' how to develop. It happens involuntarily, like a human going through puberty. [/quote] :pigchef: [/quote] What? [/quote] :bsflag: 'Maybe' you got it all wrong. Would you 'maybe' admit that? :pigchef::pigchef::pigchef: [/quote] Tell me what I got wrong and tell me how you know it's wrong. Then I'll admit it. [/quote] Hey man, I'm just playing along your 'maybe' games. Maybe you will not believe me. Maybe. [/quote] So, as usual you have no point. [/quote] Maybe. Maybe we will let the powers of evolution decide our faith. :5a: [/quote] Wtf are you talking about? Are you trying to be funny? Do you think there's a problem with being honest about our uncertainty? Would you prefer that I lie like religions do'? [/quote] Maybe I am, maybe I am not. There's no problem with [i]your[/i] uncertainty, that is for sure. And yes, there is a problem when you make truth claims and back them up with your epic 'lets be honest about uncertainty' excuses. How you casually choose what can be categorized as uncertain and then accuse others of not doing so is just mindboggling. Or perhaps just the nerve of some 18-21 year old biased Chad student. Isn't the science you love all about certainty? Repeatability? Predictability? I mean, uncertainty is the exact opposite. Falling back on such arguments just shows you haven't studied the entire subject at all. Maybe you should stick with ERVs. Maybe. :pigchef: [/quote] [b]The only thing you have is more faith. And the very faith you have does not hold up to basic logical and rational scrutiny.[/b] [/quote] If that were true, you could explain why what I said is illogical. The process of evolution is observable in the present, the evolutionary history of life can only be inferred by the evidence than is observable now. It's not certain, but it's the best we have. [quote:Anonymous Coward 77301333:MV8zOTY2MTA3XzcxODM5NTIxX0ZEMEY3OTE5] Lovely how you just explain away metamorphosis by casually, as always, introducing some unknown missing common ancestor as the explanation. [/quote] Who said it's missing? Moths are in the phylum Euarthropoda. The earliest arthropods can be found in rock dating to the Cambrian period, which began 545 million years ago. They included trilobites, horseshoe crabs, and crustaceans. Centipedes, millipedes, and scorpions were among the first arthropods to reach dry land. Moths are in the class Insecta. The oldest definitive insect fossil is the Devonian Rhyniognatha hirsti, estimated at 396-407 million years old. Lepidoptera is an order of insects that includes butterflies and moths. Previously, the earliest known lepidopteran fossils were three wings of Archaeolepis mane, a primitive moth-like species from the Jurassic, about 190 million years ago, found in Dorset, UK, which show scales with parallel grooves under a scanning electron microscope and a characteristic wing venation pattern shared with Trichoptera (caddisflies).[4][5] In 2018, the discovery of exquisite fossilised scales from the Triassic-Jurassic boundary were reported in the journal Science Advances. They were found as rare palynological elements in the sediments of the Triassic-Jurassic boundary from the cored Schandelah-1 well, drilled near Braunschweig in northern Germany. This pushes back the fossil record and origin of glossatan lepidopterans by about 70 million years, supporting molecular estimates of a Norian (c. 212 million years) divergence of glossatan and non-glossatan lepidopterans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidoptera [/quote] There is not one reason to explain anything to a brainwashed naturalist. You hear and read what you allow yourself to hear and read. The very fact you follow up with 'but evolution is observable now' is well, laughable and just shows you are not serious at all about the science surrounding evotardism. Just reverting back to minor changes within a species can lead to huge changes over trillions of years fantasy. We've been down that road before buddy. [/quote] So you have evidence, but you won't give it to me because 'I'm a brainwashed naturalist.' lol, right. Who do you think you're fooling? You don't have shit. That's why Creationism is a laughing stock, and why it's illegal to teach it in science class. It's not science. [/quote]
Original Message
How many mutations does need to be naturally selected over the course of thousands of generations until theres a complete transition from caterpillar to butterfly?
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