Is AA a cult?

do you acknowledge all gods? no. my grandmother used to take me to aa all the time when i was a kid and there was always different religons present. they have the perfect model for a cult, they accept ALL competitor coupons.

Why would you think the Automobile Association was a cult? I can see why you might think the RAC was one, but they are defunct now. For the most part they are just like extra insurance when you go on long trips.

the word of the day kids is... PROGRAM.

Well that would be because in America the car became a cult in its own right a long time before the Automobile Association took precedence from the Royal Automobile Club. The RAC was pretty hoity toity, and assumed that its members would drive Rolls and Bentlys.

Obviously you have no firsthand experience with aa....

Great way to put it....

Them and the freemasons....

No, AA is not a cult. This is a ridiculous notion. A colt is generally authoritarian, exploitative and possibly dangerous.

The word God simply means a higher power AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT. This could be anything that works for you: nature, the spirit of the universe, guardian angles, whatever/whoever, so long as it's a power greater than yourself. The program is absolutely based on spirituality, NOT religion. Although if your higher power is centered around a traditional religion, that is fine.

As the 12 steps are for the individual, the 12 traditions are for the group as s whole. Sound like a cult to you?

THE TWELVE TRADITIONS

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Mainstream religions are cults as well.

Yeah, they learned from the missteps of the Oxford group. The traditions are what keeps AA glued together and from becoming corrupted like the subject of this thread. Congrats on your clean time. I just passed the 18 month sobriety mark. Life is good, again.

Be serious doc. I never said the 'traditions' were bs. You threw them up as some kinda rebuttal to other poster's exposure of the cult aspects of Twelve Stepism.

In a way you make my point. 12 stepism "works" by repeatedly reciting of a list of ideas which can somehow magically effect profound changes in personality and alter toxic behavior.

So you go one up on the 12 steps of AA and proclaim another 12 that in your mind somehow indemnify the first 12. Say what?

Methinks Tom Cruise would follow that better than I can, try as hard as I may.

FWIW I first walked into "these halls of aa" back in 1980. I have lived fewer years sober than otherwise and the gratitude that achieving an enlightened sobriety imparts is good enough to keep me sober, no thanks to the vagaries of some concept of God.



Last Edited by Ahim-sa on 05/14/2010 03:22 PM

keep comeing back

I am in Ireland but I believe that AA, NA and GA are universal. And God ain't mentioned in the 12 step programme over here!
As part of my addiction training I spent alot of time in open meetings and speaking with members.
Is it a cult? I honestly don't know. It isn't the be all cure that it proclaims to be. It's success rate isn't that great.
I do know that excessive reliance on AA and attendance of meetings causes more marital and family breakdowns than the alcohol ever did.
There is a sense of being different which is universal in addicts, alcoholics in particular. This goes away back to childhood for most. AA or should I say the gathering of alcoholics gives many the feeling of belonging and therefore normalcy. It is when members start attending meetings more then 3 times a week, that I think another addiction comes in to play and the problems start.

You might want to read NOT GOD, DR. P, since you are citing Wilson's book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Many of the original AA's pleaded with Bill W NOT to write the book (for clarity, I refer to the 12 by 12).

Wilson, in my estimation and opinion, NEVER got the recovery which is outlined in the How It Works and Into Action chapters of "the big book" Alcoholics Anonymous.

I was shown the how and why, by one who claimed recovery. I did the work overnite and was Given Recovery by God.


Whatever AA is, varies from person to person. When was it? 1937 that Alcoholics Anonymous was written? The original hopeless Alcoholics found a method of recovering from alcoholism by "spiritual awakening".


Had I not made the 5th step decision to give my life to God, right after I completed my 4th step inventory; maybe I never would have found "the right way"...

Everything with God is a matter of your heart. At 12:30am I had finished my resentments list (4th step) and could see over and over how I had put myself in a position to be hurt by others' responses to my expectations and requirements. I knew then that "self was the problem" (guess I could get the book and cite the sentence, but that is the gist). I knew only God could save me from my alcoholism, but didn't yet realize how much more than the drinking this disease affected my life. Came to realize that later.

Was alone in my house and as I was going to kitchen for a soda, in my doorway I thought, "I will just do it now", so I dropped to my knees and prayed to YahWeh, Father God (to be sure, since being catholic at the time, I didn't really know how Jesus fit into God's Plan). Anyway, I asked HIM to take all of me, the good and the bad and send HIS Holy Spirit to Guide me through life. I KNEW immediately that I was in HIS Presence and HE Had Accepted me!

A couple days later, the guy who showed me the steps did steps 5 through 10 with me. Almost 26yrs later, have never had another drink.


Life is a cult.
Bunch of self-willed and carnal-hearted scared children seeking their will or their way over others.

Give your life to God
Learn what hell (carnality) HE Has Delivered you from


Mostly, Bill Wilson and most in AA confuse the symptom with the disease. The disease is alienation from God. Life just won't go the way you want it to when you live with a carnal-heart, so you get pissed off and then drink, drug, eat, fuck, or purge; (add any other destructive behaviour I've forgotten here)...

There is only one True God.
The same God who InterActed with Abraham, Moses, Elijah. The same God WHO IS Christ Jesus' Father
The same God I made my surrender to.

The sad thing about AA is so many who have every reason to Trust God Completely, just never find their way to do so. I had tried AA two years earlier, drank again and then found myself unable to get drunk anymore. I knew I was screwed and headed for death. It scared me enough not to hold anything back.


The Twelve Steps of AA enabled me to establish a Relationship With God, that I otherwise (being catholic) would never have found.

People don't often want to hear the truth, or learn how they can take action. Basically it all comes down to not being able to Trust God, just like churchgoers and their religion. God Will Guide your life and enable you to fulfill HIS Purpose for your life; if you are willing to allow HIM to do so. Most just aren't.

The Twelve Steps as written in Alcoholics Anonymous are steps of RECOVERY; not recovering or sobriety, but complete recovery from alcoholism. Most don't want to hear that either.

Last Edited by Lester on 05/14/2010 06:09 PM

I've been in AA for 15 years now and true that a lot of us joke about the whole "cult" persona that outsiders may have. But hey it works and my life and friends and family are better because of it.

AA is actually an outgrowth of a christian group called the Oxford group so its principles are christian in nature without all the dogma associated with modern day christianity

True, the founders dabbled a bit in the occult but not very long because they got a bad vibe from all the occult stuff.

"the AA deception" is only a deception if you keep getting drunk....

Only if they won't allow you to leave the aircraft.

Aim-sa,

AA is a spiritual program that helps clear the pathway to a God of you're undertanding and in doing so keeps you sober.

If you look at Alcoholism or any addiction as a spiritual malady, AA is a solution.

AA has saved so many people's lives and given them so much more. If you knew more about it you would be screaming from the rooftops. It's waking up my dear and becoming sober at the same time. It is a good thing.

From one spiritual being to another I would have thought that you ould have given this program more thought.

Peace
T

Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholics do not react the same way to Alcohol as a normal drinker.

You might jus be a heavy drinker, not an alcoholic. And let me guess that you did not follow the program? We all quit drinking several times on our own, problem is that we can not stay sober! It's not when you drink or how much you drink but what happens to you when you put alcohol in your body.

What's with the bad wrap about AA. Would you rather a bunch of drunks ? I don't get it.

If AA s a cult then I am proud to be a member.

God or your own conception of God has no limts. The point is that you have done the work on yourself to find out what your character defects are and then you take responsibilty for them and you ask God to remove them. So in essence that is exactly what you are doing is taking responsibilty for your actions. Think of "God" as you're higher self acting through you.

:)

One of the co-founders of the AA program got the 12 steps from a Ouija board session. True story.

And obviously it was an angel who answered the call!

Ok, you can be a member because it's not a dangerous cult. Not Jim Jones or Heavens gate type, unless someone poisons the coffee.

But the alcohoism a disease concept = FAIL. Some form of brainwashing, hypnosis, mind control perpetuated by those who run AA.
By getting you to believe alcoholism is a disease then you also believe you must be treated for that disease, ie: AA, treatment program, and in some cases medications that make you get sick if you take a drink.
The following sums it up precisely:

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual.

In a recent Gallup poll, 90% of people surveyed believe that alcoholism is a disease. Most argue that because the American Medical Association (AMA) has proclaimed alcoholism a disease, the idea is without reproach.

But, the fact is that the AMA made this determination in the absence of empirical evidence. After reviewing the history of the decision, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that the AMA has been pursuing its own agenda in the face of evidence negating the validity of alcoholism.

While the AMA has made extraordinary contributions in the mental health field, it is not outside the box. The AMA is a part of the capitalist paradigm that is necessary for our society to function.

The promulgation of the disease concept, in conjunction with AMA approval, has created a multi-billion dollar treatment industry that contributes billions to the health care industry.

But, with their status, mistakes in classifications can and do result in disastrous consequence. While the AMA’s classifications for the most part are accurate, the organization is not without error. Since its inception the AMA has made classifications of varying “deviant” behaviors without scientific research to validate its claims.

And, for whatever reason, the definition of a disease, as set forth by the AMA, is a malleable and all inclusive definition allowing for the inclusion of almost every deviant behavior. As a result, every unwanted behavior can be medicalized and medically treated thereby providing professionals with more patients and more income."
[link to www.addictioninfo.org]

That's just one of many articles out there. I've given presentations in church about this. And by the way, I was diagnosed as an alcoholic when I was 18 and again at 21. And there was a time in my life I couldn't stop. When I drank I would drink till either the booze was gone or I passed out. I began to stockpile booze and would wake up every 2 or 3 hours and could not get back to sleep unless I drank the equivalent of 2 - 4 drinks. In bars if I ran out of money by the end of the night I'd wait till almost everyone left, then pretend to help the bartender clean up the tables, while I cleaned up the half full beers and drinks left by drunk customers. (Mind you, beer with ashes and cigarette butts in it sucks!)Even in my teens before I could legally buy or go to bars, if there was no booze in the house I'd find anything that had alcohol in it. Vanilla Extract (70 proof), Hair tonic, even rubbing alcohol. I only did that to take the edge off because without booze in me I felt like crap, and I did go through withdrawals.

So in my case, yes I had the "symptoms" of an alcoholic. But I made the personal choice to stop, and like the article says, it is a choice. So if it's a disease, it's a rare one because you can choose to cure yourself of it.
But, it's not a disease. The disease concept was created for money and control. That's the truth.

No point in more beating our gums at this point, Doc.

We can agree to disagree without being disagreeable, K?

I do want you to understand that I posted the BS flag in response to the prior post and I hadn't bothered with a quote-reply and you posted your 12 what's its reply before I even saw, thass all.

Life on the web, ain't it grand?

Most AAs these days don't have a clue what an alcoholic really is. The treatment centers send everyone to meetings once their 30 days of in-patient benes run out, and many people who did the treatment center thing never hear about why they can't remember not to take that first drink...

Powerlessness. Unable to remember why you didn't want to drink, drug, have casual sex with a stranger, or binge/purge. Only God can Enable you to have that defense against the thought that "I can take just one".

Treatment centers dump the people whose lives they've helped confuse onto AA. Then there are the AA members who are dry-drunks or as alluded to, never were alcoholics. "The newcomer is the most important person in the room", you hear over and over again. Bullshit. At some point, the real alcoholic is back into real hurt because he/she never got recovery.

People hear/understand what they can, when they are ready. Some of them get loved to death in those rooms. Just coddled into the graveyard.

Alcoholics Anonymous may as well have been written in Sanskrit for the few that really can understand what it is.

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Then there is the bit about "rigorous honesty"; talking self-honesty (able to see and admit where YOU were wrong). Some are incapable of this, the book says, "There are such unfortunates, they seem to have been born that way. But they can and often do get better."

Most AA groups and meetings don't carry the message of RECOVERY. Not "recovering", but definite, once and for all RECOVERY; as in "recovered".

What is the insanity of alcoholism? Picking up that first drink, trying that desperate experiment, thinking "This time, it'll be different!" Only God Gives you a defense against the insanity of alcoholism.

A Relationship With HIM, just as Christ Witnesses in John ch 17; is the result if you make your surrender.


Most AAs are just never willing to go to any length, so they live in their alcoholism for the rest of their days; dry but not recovered, and still alienated from God.

Oh well....

I accompanied my friend Brad for years. AA addicted me to coffee!!

AA is not a cult. I see someone already posted the 12 steps to help restore alcoholics to sanity. However there are also 12 traditions that AA as a whole follows. These 12 traditions were written some time after the groups formed and potential problems with power hungry individuals were becoming apparent.

I am paraphrasing a bit but, these traditions are so well written that it is near to no chance for a cult to develope if these traditions are followed.

I can post them if you are interested.

To all who worship at the cathedral of 12 stepism, a couple of other facts about your beloved AA Faith.

Your religion has been hijacked by an industry, who promotes, markets, and proselytizes your faith, alleged professionally, for profit, in direct violations of your faith’s stated traditions.

Your faith requires CONSTANT apologists. As theology it is a disaster, as a “medical” treatment or remedy, which it is constantly marketed, it is a total failure.

It is quite a paradox. The disease model of addictions popularity is a direct result of major lobbying by the AA faith and their powerful front groups ASAM, NAADAC, The National Council on Alcoholism, and the Hazelden Foundation, to name a few.

Yet after all the effort to popularize the disease model the AA faith refuses to accept that alcoholism is a disease, and considers the ONLY remedy to be a religious intervention; a daily reprieve upon request from the AA god. Use of actual medicine, such as very effective meds such as naltrexone are strongly discouraged.

AA is NOT about stopping drinking, it is about "getting right with god" This becomes very apparent as the words "abstinent but alcoholic" or the derogatory slur of "dry drunk" is used about people that do not drink, but fail to convert to the AA faith.

This misinformation and disinformation, that is promoted, marketed, and prosytized by members of the AA faith and the recovery industry as medical fact is neither medical nor is it fact. It is also dangerous and deadly.

There are people in the United States that are incarcerated, have lost custody of children, have lost employment, and have been denied organ transplants for failing to participate and convert to your beloved religion.

The humble group of ex-drinkers extending a hand to “fellow sufferers” is a myth. Your organization uses its power as a weapon. Standard medical ethics are ignored or intentionally and maliciously disregarded. Courts and employers alike use forced and coerced “medical treatment” as a de facto weaponization of the practice of medicine.

In reality your “spiritual program” is in fact a fanatical, fundamentalist, evangelical death cult, that needs people to die in order to recruit new members, and convince the membership that the organization has any credibility.



OK, now keep coming back.

I'll be here. :o){]

What's the difference between the 12 steps and the 12 traditions? I didn't know there was any such thing as the 12 'traditions.' What are they?

Ahim-Sa, or whoever the Original Posting guy is, obviously has some deep-seated resentment toward AA.

Oh well, better to give than receive a resentment....

Like all resentments, OP evidently has some fear issues. Resentment arises from our own fear, not what we perceive was done to us by others or events.
Trusting God is the solution in every regard to fear.

Doesn't much matter what AA is.
What matters is: Are you willing to allow God to do for you what you cannot (*if you are really alcoholic) do for yourself? What can't the alcoholic do? He/She cannot always rely on self to remember why they don't want to pick up that first drink.

Recovery from alcoholism is really a pretty minor thing, when you allow God to Do It. Doing "the work" means nothing. It is the self-honesty and Trusting HIM that enables surrender.

AA World Services and all the other central offices and groups/clubs mean nothing if there is no one to carry the message/witness of RECOVERY.


Few people ever really grasp what recovery is. Most just settle for not drinking. The big book likens this situation to a tornado (the alcoholic raging through others' lives), and once the tornado passes (drunk stops drinking) the drunk says "Ain't it grand the wind stopped blowing!".

Used to hear about the attitude of gratitude.
Never was grateful to have had this disease. It is worse than cancer. At least the cancer patient knows something is killing them. Alcoholic doesn't know for a longtime, if ever, how fucked he/she is making their lives and impacting countless others.


Want to bitch about AA, call it a cult? Go to a meeting, (open if you aren't alcholic), and tell your story there. You'll be just another sick fuck in a room who doesn't know why they are where they are.